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Year 2012 -satya/dwapara Yuga
At least 4 things need to be proven:
(1) that Naga pambu and related traditions (sacredness of puttu, and the like) are connected to Nagas of NE

<i>Nagas of NE can be connected to Naga civilizations Far Eastern Chinese influence, so that is a round about connection. If that is taken as a primary connection then it will serve to confuse. Do remember that this is a thinly researched subject and we are still connecting the dots.</i>

(2) that Nairs are connected to Nagas of NE

<i>In NE there seems to be a Nagaland, and that is proving to be the biggest disruption. Please consider these entities to be distant outposts of same civilization. That is what I am doing for now.</i>

(3) that the beings called Nagas in Mahabharatam (Uloopi and her kind) are connected to Nagas of NE
(According to Thamizh tradition, Uloopi is said to have governed a place in TN, near what's a temple now http://www.hindubooks.org/temples/tamiln...page13.htm
- but that's related to (2) again: what does it have to do with the Nagas of the NE?

<i>Again Nagas of NE have come into the picture. And they are just naga for namesake, naga civilizational influence to that part of the world has been the least studied. Let us for moment just consider them as an offshoot of Naga civilizations Chinese/Far Eastern/Central Asian connection. That will make it easier to understand.</i>

Also, doesn't MB describe Uloopi's people as not human and not looking entirely human - weren't they snake or something from the waist down?) So how is it the MB Nagas would magically match up with a rather human community of the same name? And if so, is this the DIT: us "Dravidians" now "drove the Nagas up to the NE" - all while we still worship "them"?
It feels more likely that the Nairs might recognise an affiliation with the Naga Devas or Uloopi's Nagas - in fact, I always thought these last two might be the same (at least in TN, since our state is at the coast of the ocean and Uloopi's kind of Nagas were described as great water-snake people who live in the water, isn't it?).

<i>That and lot more folklore is part of Naga narrative, plz refer to Aideehamala (spllg ?) to know a lot more of such stories. It does seem that the Nagas were a mystical people. Actually I now remember that it also looks like the mukkulathor, who were the progenitor of the martial races of Tamil Nadu viz were also originally from the Chera kingdom or even more profoundly they were progenitors of the Chera kingdom, they too were found in South and Western parts of ancient Tamil Nadu basically in same areas as the Chera kingdom was founded. Cheras were believed to be a great martial race and had a great sea-faring culture</i>

In NE that
(4) that Nagas of NE are connected to Mayans. (Or that any of the other Nagas mentioned in (1) to (3) are connected to Mayans.)

<i>The Mayan tribe who confessed as having descended from Naga tribes were part of threee ancient Mayan founder tribes from '100 days West of South Central America by boat/ship', the other two tribes and their offshoots were more of the Sinic varient of Naga culture, but the cultural influence of all three was unmistakably Naga. And so were their temples and architecture which was unmistakably Naga influenced as well, all temples and artifacts were derivate of plans laid out by their master architect Maya danava.</i>
This was found from Afghanistan...
<img src='http://pratyeka.org/kabul-museum/nagaking.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
This is a statue of a Naga King emerging from a tank, and it appears to be holding the stalk of a lotus. The statue is 40 cm tall and made out of clay.

Nagas: The Ancient Rulers of India
by Dr. Naval Viyogi

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ProductID: 7397 - Hardcover - 486 Pages (Year: 2002)
Originals ~ ISBN: 8175362871
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Indiaclub.com Description

The Nagas, like most of the other Native tribes has serpent as their totem. They also used to worship serpent and consider them to be their protective deity. They also used to wear artificial hoods of cobra on their heads at certain occasions. This book records their history.

The tradition of Naga worship or totem was in prevalence in Babylonia, Assyria, Palestine and Iran from ancient times and it was brought to India alongwith migration of Sumerians and Assyrians and Dravidian race.

There are enormous evidences of seals and seal impressions found from Indus towns to show that Indus Valley people also used to worship this serpent deity.

In Rigvedic account, there is a mention of Nagas among them Ahivritra is prominent, who was sworn enemy of Indra, the Aryan god and militant leader. In Atharva-Veda there are some hymns, which describe serpents named Iligi and Viligi, according to B S Upadhyaya, these were names of father and son the genealogical table of Assyrian kings. This proves that serpent (Naga) race and its tradition of serpent worship came from Western Asia.

Archaeological evidences recovered from the excavation of Prabhasa a site of B & R Ware culture in Kathiavar, it has been proved by scholars that users of this pottery were Yadavas of Mahabharata fame. These Yadavas were original inhabitants of Western Asia and Iran. Racially they were round headed alpine or a blend of Alpine or Dravidian race.

These people, according to Rigveda were non-Saskrit speaking non-Aryans whose mother tongue was Souraseni, which has been described as Mlechchha language in Puranas. They are also Called Dasas in Rigveda.

Krishna, the hero of Yadavas, in addition of his being an incarnation of Vishnu was also a son of Vasudeva and great grand son of Aryaka who was a Naga chief in origin. Baldeva or Baldou, the elder brother of Krishna is said to be reincarnation of SeshaNaga, hence he was always under the protection of many hoods of cobra. At his death his soul came out of his mouth in the form of large cobra.

They developed a guild based industry and trade system and at one stage their every village was turned into an industrial state. The base of their military system was nation-in-arms which made them most powerful and invincible people of the ancient age. Republican system was base of their ruling system, which is said to be modern development of Europeans.

In short these people were wealthy worker and warriors who believed in equality and brotherhood and knew no caste. They were followers of Buddha’s teachings of non-violence, their sword was not for violence but for maintaining peace. They were architect of urbanization of ancient India second time after the fall of Indus cities and their ultimate achievement was Golden Age of Indian history.

Thus the Naga culture was of great producer which made them great, on the other Aryan culture was non-productive which became the main cause of downfall of the nation at later stage.

Table of Contents

1.The Mythical Origin of the Naga Race.
2.The Expansion of Serpent workship and Naga Race in India
3.The Megalithic culture, its Origin and Expansion in India
4.The Civilizations of the Dark Age and Megalithic culture; An Archaeological Review.
5.The Origin of the Naga culture in the, Western Asia and its Transfer to Indus Valley
6.The Sanghas or Republics in India.
7.Pishachi, the Mother of Pali, Prakrit and Maharashtri
8.Who were the Nagas? Their Ethnical identity
9.The Black and Red ware culture, its relation with the Yadavas and the Naga Race
10.The Downfall of Vedic Culture and Rise of Shraman Naga Culture
11.The Satavahansa and the other Naga rulers of South
12.The Naga Rules of the north and Central India
13.The Guild Based trade and Industry during the Megalithic and Buddhist Age
14.The Megalithic Culture, its Relation with the Buddhism and Naga Race.
15.The Ethnical Identity of People of Maharashtra during the Historical period and their Relations with the Naga Race.

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I would like to interject just a bit here, with a few tidbits of what I feel might be relevant to the good discussion.

- etymology of mAyA in samskritam is mA-yA - one who does not exist (and yet exists). One who appears without any existance. or the contrary: one who exists but cannot be perceived by others.

- There is a vivid description of a great mAyA - in Valmiki Ramayanam. Hanuman mentions about mAyA and his deeds in his debrief.

- Jaya/Mahabharatam even begins with a vivid description of nAgA-s: through the highy mystified tale of two sisters kudru and vinatA who were married to sage kaSyapa. Many other tales about nAga-s including the very anchor of mahAbhAratam: the nAga-vinAsha-yagya / sarpa-yagya conducted by janamejaya in the beginning of the kaliyuga.

- back to the kudru-vinatA episode for a while. the whole take is so stunningly symbolic, it has layers upon layers of some hints, which we can pick. First it mentions domination of the sons of kudru - the nAga-s - in strength. It also mentions theier "enslaving" vanita and her son (garuDa). Then it also mentions how garuDa carries "some" nAga-s to certain islands, and then to some more islands. Having carried them their he begins the enterprises of freeing up himself and his mother from slavery of nAga cousins/step-brothers. It also mentions that some nAga-s were 'good' and others 'bad'. It then mentions that good nAga-s would be eventually be saved and immortalized, while bad ones will be slaughtered/vanished/empoverished. Good nAgas are mentioned with immense respect : e.g. Shesha who goes to the service of vishNu, just like garuDa himself.

- To me it appears that nAgA-s are not mere 'snakes/serpants', although the reptile - cobra (not just any snake) today might be taken as a representative of the ancient peoples called nAgA-s in their memory.

- It also mentions the other son of vinatA - aruNa - elder brother of garuDa - who because of impatience of his mother was born immatured. the tale is so mysterious - aruNa and garuDa are anDaja - come out of eggs hatched by his mother. So aruNa born immaturely and underdeveloped - goes to Mitra - the Sun to live with him forever.

- While there are very appropriate Adhyatmik meanings of the tale, very appropriate symbolism of Yogic experiences, it also appears to me that these set of tales, and various others of that context, might really want to be telling us about a dominant ancient people called nAga-s were once dominant force and population (1000 to 1.5 - if you go by the number in kudru-vinatA tale), but they continued to grow in ego and hostility to their cousins. They are eventually migrated to some islands, and also slaughtered (sarpa-yagya by janmejaya where he wants to completely vanish all the nAga-s)

- mention of Nagarcoil came, but also remember Nagpur! (some say this is where janamejaya performed sarpa-yagya)

- nAgesh : Lord of nAga-s - is a celebrated name of Lord Siva. nAgar (which also means citizen) is name of Lord krishna.

- nAga-s are also mentioned as enemies of Asura-s too. e.g. in Samudra Manthana episode, vAsukI nAga emitted terrible 'clouds of venom' upon asura-s killing so many of them, while saving sura-s from it at the same time, by keeping his mouth(s) towards asura-s and tail towards sura-s


- By the way, only last week an ancient temple has been discovered in Peru. early dating estimates take it to as far as 3rd millenium BCE - making it almost contemporary of the Saraswati/Ghagghar and Egyptians. I had posted news about it on Miscelanuous History of India thread.

- Also remember another curious fact. Temple arts in Peru have depicted Elephants. Elephants have not been known to be found in Americas. Western Archaeologists have not been able to answer this one. Elephants have never lived in Americas. So they try to explain that this may be because there were trade relations, and they americans might be exposed to Elephants that way. Others tried to say the image is not elephant at all, but some other creature.

- As Raju said somewhere, there is/was a belief of native americans that they came from somewhere in the east by sailing for a certain number of days, etc.

- Mexican state symbol even *today* is an Eagle(?) carrying a snake in its beek. The same image can be found all over the Hindu temple arts, and represents the tale of kudru-vinatA : garuDa eventually carrying off his cousins/half-brothers to an island (for protection)

- Recall the record of how locals welcomed the terrorist tyrant Columbus and his gang, traeating them as if they were of their own, coming from their heavens, and lands of their Gods! Not knowing who he was. What were they thinking? Of course that he came from the east - from the lands of their forefathers!

- VS Naipaul, who having spent a lot of time in south america, has written about the native beleifs and culture throughout his literature. One that he mentions, is about their remembering and revering places in east. There is a tale that they used to sail, amid high risks, across the ocean to east - up to Greece and middle east and worship there in temples and monasteries and go back. Like their doing a highest pilgrimage. I had reproduced that piece in 'Sri Krishna and Rama Setu'.

Hindu-Maya Cultural Dialogue Takes Place in Guatemala City (Guatemala)
May 27, 2005
Hindustan Times

On May 27, 2005 the Hindustan Times reported, "The Mayans of Guatemala - representative of the Maya civilization that flourished during the first millennium AD in Central America - believe their ancestors came to this part of the globe 20,000 years ago from the East. One of the most dominant ethnic groups, Kekichi Maya, has always had special attraction for India in the past as their forefathers have told them that the 'Naga tribes of Nagaland' were one of the four original branches of the Maya civilization. (<i>this is common mistake, they know of their naga origin but mistakenly connect it to landlocked Nagaland, because it is the only Naga sounding name in Anglicized India</i>) It is for these reasons and the similarities between the Aryan and Mayan civilizations, the people of Guatemala for long have been trying to establish contact with Indians and have a cultural dialogue. The first such dialogue formally gets going at Maya Village, Lake Atitlan in Guatemala on May 29... A 16-member delegation of intellectuals, academicians and scholars from six countries - mainly people of Indian origin - left Houston in Texas for the Guatemala City on May 27 to participate in the two day conference on 'Hindu-Maya Cultural Similarities.'"
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Nov 18 2007, 10:43 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Nov 18 2007, 10:43 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
- back to the kudru-vinatA episode for a while.  the whole take is so stunningly symbolic, it has layers upon layers of some hints, which we can pick.  First it mentions domination of the sons of kudru - the nAga-s - in strength.  It also mentions theier "enslaving" vanita and her son (garuDa).  Then it also mentions how garuDa carries "some" nAga-s to certain islands, and then to some more islands.  Having carried them their he begins the enterprises of freeing up himself and his mother from slavery of nAga cousins/step-brothers. It also mentions that some nAga-s were 'good' and others 'bad'.  It then mentions that good nAga-s would be eventually be saved and immortalized, while bad ones will be slaughtered/vanished/empoverished. Good nAgas are mentioned with immense respect : e.g. Shesha who goes to the service of vishNu, just like garuDa himself.


<img src='http://www.viewzone.com/sn12.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<b>The Aztec version of Garuda with a snake in its beak</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin-Raju+Nov 18 2007, 01:21 PM-->QUOTE(Raju @ Nov 18 2007, 01:21 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->believe their ancestors came to this part of the globe 20,000 years ago from the East. One of the most dominant ethnic groups, Kekichi Maya, has always had special attraction for India in the past as their forefathers have told them that the 'Naga tribes of Nagaland' were one of the four original branches of the Maya civilization[/size]. (<i>this is common mistake, they know of their naga origin but mistakenly connect it to landlocked Nagaland, because it is the only Naga sounding name in Anglicized India</i>) [right][snapback]75368[/snapback][/right]

Maybe, but may not be, too. We don't yet know, and with mass christianization of centuries, at both Naga-s we may or may never know.

A friend of mine has visited a village in NE some time back (not exactly NL) for some work, and witnessed a strange ritual. Kind of mirror image of the description of sarpa-yagya of Janamejaya. In this ritual, on a certain tithi, the tribals assemble in the night, usually around midnight and past, and burn bonfires and play some chants. Then all of sudden, from everywhere, birds of many types start appearing and jumping into the fire killing themselves. In a few hours, thousands of birds self-immolate themselves. Kind of a 'revenge' for Janamejaya's Sarpa-yagya in which a similar ritual was performed to kill snakes, as per the tale, when snakes come and fall in the fire. That is only my speculation, but the above reported event is very real. I would trust this friend.
Good thing you told me, I googled for some Kekchi images. And I found that the Kekchis looked a bit different from the rest of the Mayans. They resembled our North East walas more.

But some others like Mopan Maya, look strikingly mallu, while some others viz Quiche Maya look like mallu crossed with North East Indian. Fascinating !
Hmmm. If you mean that there were Thamizh and Kerala people who were of "Nagavamsham" and they are the ones you refer to as Nagas and are connected to Mayans, then I have no quarrel with what you say. Sure, locals who built some Kovils in S may well have been of these S Hindu communities. In which case your "Naga origin Kovils" would not contradict my stating that TN temples are of Thamizh Hindu origin.
And if then the Nagas of NE are a distant outpost (distant in time and space) related to the same, I have no problem with that either - you then didn't mean to imply that they built some of our historic Temples and then suddenly moved NE and remain there (while no longer building S Indian style Temples).
I misunderstood what you meant by Naga or "Naga origin" altogether; I thought that even in India you meant it to originate (only) in NE; and that you were insisting that Naga Devargal/Uloopi's kind were the human NE Nagas.

I'd like to know if the contribution of the other "Godly architect in Hindu tradition" Maya is also represented in the Agamas - must be, if the "measurements and proportions" of the Mayan Temple construction is well-known to S Indian Shilpis.

I never heard that Nadar is linguistically related to NAga. They are historically a martial people (I don't know whether they have a Nagapambu culture though, but they do have a sacred coconut based culture, rather similar to the importance and usage of the coconut in Vedic rites). But today's TN imagines they're a Harijan community according to some missionary book.
(Another Thamizh word "Nagar" - without long first A - just means place/township/city and from common uasage seems a separate word in its entirety. Then it's not to be confused with such as NAgarkoil, NAgapattinam).

That Mexican flag with an eagle and snake is indeed a marvel. To think that although I've seen it often enough, I had never noticed the significance. Hopeless!

And the reverse-Janmejaya sacrifice (Bodhi's post) is even more of a revelation. But in that case, Janmejaya's yagna might have been a sacrifice of actual snakes (that is, Nagapambu/sarpam) - if NE Nagas' sacrifice is of actual birds. (Is the NE Nagas' yagna carried out for the purposes of evening out historical deaths or something?)

Like Solar and Lunar dynasties that trace descent back to the respective Gods, I think those of Nagavamsham are human communities that trace their descent back to the Naga Devas (Naga Devas who are represented by Nagapambu - snakes who are therefore regarded as sacred). That would certainly explain why we know what we are doing when worshipping Nagadevas (and we most definitely know that these are <i>not</i> the human Naga community of NE or the Nairs or the Cheras or even the Mayans that we are offering our prayers to).

Sorry for taking the thread hostage.
A few small things which I forgot above:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Even ancient CHINA was an outpost of Naga civilization, the most venerable of their ancient symbols of ancient Chinese was the snake.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Whenever someone talks about snake symbols in other cultures, I never know whether they mean dragons or snakes. In Ireland, the christians congratulated themselves on having chased away "the snakes"; and then there was the christian tradition of "dragon slaying". (I don't think this has to do with any Nagas - at least, not any human community of Nagas.)

The sacred Chinese dragon - if that is what you meant with "snake" in the above - is described very precisely in their tradition. Its form is an amalgamation of several animals: antlers for horns, fish' gills, claws of a bird of prey and several other very particular features that I can't recall at present. Carvings of Chinese dragons adorn Taoist temples and the creature is held sacred in Korea and other places around E Asia as well.
But I don't think the Chinese Dragon is anything like the Snake symbolism in India. And it certainly doesn't recall Uloopi's description. It's never presented as (partially) human-like either, unlike our Naga Devas.
However, one point of similarity is that both the Chinese Dragon and Uloopi's Nagas are said to reside in the water. But the Chinese Dragon is also known to reside in a special drum or something. There is one Chinese Dragon - it has several sons, yet they are all said to be the same. (Maybe this is like how our Gods are all ultimately one.) And it's also said there's a Chinese dragon for the seas in all 4 directions.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->We have a user i.d. on India Forum who goes by the name of 'Sengottuvan', now that is a Chera name.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Are you referring to the ID Sengotuvel? It is a well-known Thamizh name for Murughan. If the Cheras had this name, then they got it from the Thamizh name for Murughan.
Nagas in India worshipped dragons (human face and tail of snake), they are the originators of dragon worship and instrumental in popularising of the Dragon symbol throughout the world. This was transmitted to China as well as ME and through ME into Europe (pic 1, pic 2) even before the spread of Buddhism due to cultural influence and outreach of the Naga dynasties. There were Indian Naga dynasties that were progenitors of Dragon worship .. a dragon is nothing else but a snake with legs. If you observe the Chinese dragon festivals, then the dragon is a long coiling creature with legs. Naga Dynasties were instrumental in spreading the dragon lore because of their tremendous reach into Central Asia, Far East, and Middle East of Asia.

<b>Japanese dragon</b>

In Japanese mythology, a dragon is a guardian of the imperial family, also the god of thunder and lightening. He can be seen in pictures and sculptures holding a peril. DRAGON MYTHOLOGY. A mythological animal of Chinese origin, and a member of the NAGA (Sanskrit) family of serpentine creatures who protect Buddhism. Japan's dragon lore comes predominantly from China. Images of the reptilian dragon are found throughout Asia, and the pictorial form most widely recognized today was already prevalent in Chinese ink paintings in the Tang period (9th century AD). The mortal enemy of the dragon is the Phoenix, as well as the bird-man creature known as Karura (<i>Garuda ?</i>). In contrast to Western mythology, Asian dragons are rarely depicted as malevolent. Although fearsome and powerful, dragons are equally considered just, benevolent, and the bringers of wealth and good fortune. The dragon is also considered a shape shifter who can assume human form and mate with people.

Dragons figure importantly in folk beliefs throughout Asia, and are dressed heavily in Buddhist garb. In India, the birthplace of Buddhism around 500 BC, pre-Buddhist snake or serpentine-like creatures known as the NAGA were incorporated early on into Buddhist mythology. Described as "water spirits with human shapes wearing a crown of serpents on their heads" or as "snake-like beings resembling clouds," the NAGA are among the eight classes of deities who worship and protect the Historical Buddha. Even before the Historical Buddha (Siddhartha, Guatama) attained enlightenment, the Naga King Mucilinda (Sanskrit) is said to have protected Siddhartha from wind and rain for seven days. This motif is found often in Buddhist art from India, represented by images of the Buddha sitting beneath Mucilinda's hood and coils. (Above paragraph adapted from book by M.W. De Visser.)

In China, however, dragon lore existed independently for centuries before the introduction of Buddhism. Bronze and jade pieces from the Shang and Zhou dynasties (16th - 9th centuries BC) depict dragon-like creatures. By at least the 2nd century BC, images of the dragon are found painted frequently on tomb walls to dispel evil. Buddhism was introduced to China sometime in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD. By the 9th century AD, the Chinese had incorporated the dragon into Buddhist thought and iconography as a protector of the various Buddha and the Buddhist law. These traditions were adopted by the Japanese (Buddhism did not arrive in Japan until the mid-6th century AD). In both China and Japan, the character for "dragon" (see orange-colored ideogram at top of page) is used often in temple names, and dragon carvings adorn many temple structures. Most Japanese Zen temples, moreover, have a dragon painted on the ceiling of their assembly halls. In both Chinese and Japanese mythology, the dragon is one of four legendary creatures guarding the four cosmic directions (Red Bird - S, Dragon - E, Tortoise - N, and the Tiger - W). The four, known as the Four Celestial Emblems, appear during China's Warring States period (476 BC - 221 BC), and were frequently painted on the walls of early Chinese and Korean tombs to ward off evil spirits. The Dragon is the Guardian of the East, and is identified with the season spring, the color green/blue, the element wood (sometimes also water), the virtue propriety, the Yang male energy; supports and maintains the country (controls rain, symbol of the Emperor's power). The Guardian of the South, the Red Bird (aka Suzaku, Ho-oo, Phoenix), is the enemy of the dragon, as is the bird-man Karura. Actually, the Phoenix is the mythological enemy of all Naga, a Sanskrit term covering all types of serpentine creatures, including snakes and dragons. The Dragon (East) and Phoenix (South) both represent Yang energy, but they are often depicted as enemies, for the Dragon represents the element wood, while the Phoenix signifies the element fire. However, they're also often depicted together in artwork as partners. The Dragon is the male counterpart to the female Phoenix, and together they symbolize both conflict and wedded bliss -- the emperor (dragon) and the empress (phoenix). DRAGON SYMBOLISM GENERAL DESCRIPTION Excerpt from "Myths & Legends of Japan" by F. Hadland Davis. The Dragon has the head of a camel, horns or a deer, eyes of a hare, scales of a carp, paws of a tiger, and claws resembling those of an eagle. In addition it has whiskers, a bright jewel under its chin, and a measure on the top of its head which enables it to ascend to Heaven at will. This is merely a general description and does not apply to all dragons, some of which have heads of so extraordinary a kind that they cannot be compared with anything in the animal kingdom. The breath of the Dragon changes into clouds from which come either rain or fire. It is able to expand or contract its body, and in addition it has the power of transformation and invisibility. The ancient Chinese Emperor Yao was said to be the son of a dragon, and many rulers of that country were metaphorically referred to as dragon-faced." -- end excerpt by Hadland. DRAGON SYMBOLISM - TYPES OF DRAGONS In both Chinese and Japanese mythology, the dragon is closely associated with the watery realm, and in artwork is often surrounded by water or clouds. In myth, there are four dragon kings who rule over the four seas (which in the old Chinese conception limited the habitable earth). In China, a fifth category of dragon was added to these four, for a total of five dragon types:

1. Celestial Dragons who guard the mansions of the gods
2. Spiritual Dragons who rule wind & rain but can also cause flooding
3. Earth Dragons who cleanse the rivers & deepen the oceans
4. Treasure-Guarding Dragons who protect precious metals & stones
5. Imperial Dragons; dragons with five claws instead of the usual four


Tan Chung


If we regard India and China as cultural twins from the same cradle, it is important to find the cultural affinity of the two civilizations. One common symbol is the powerful snake whose legendary image is known as Nagaraja in India, and LonglDragon in China. . In Chinese Buddhist literature, these two symbols have merged into "Long"(Chinese translators, like the famous pilgrim Xuanzang, rendered the supernatural Naga in ancient Indian texts into Longldragon on purpose.) Ancient Chinese heard about the magical power of Indians to call rains whenever they wanted. Some Indian Buddhist monks, like Vajrabodhi and Amoghavajra etc., demonstrated such a power by playing with the symbol of NagalDragon. We have records of Indian monks presiding over imperial rain-invoking ceremonies when China was visited by severe drought in the years 366, 726, 772 and 889, the last occurred in independent Yunnan -the state of Nanzhao.2 Both India and China were agrocultures (I have coined the term to replace the tongue-twister "agricultural culture") for which rain-fall assumed great importance. The imaginary powerful NagamjalDragon symbol definitely had a connection with it. We can describe the two civilizations as Snake-Power Twins before the advent of Buddhism in China.

I have taken this proposition of Naga-Long twinhood to the academic fora both in China and in Taiwan, and have encountered violent opposition. (<i>this is result of communist indoctrination in China which sought to severe sinic links with India</i>) My opponents argued that Long had had its independent existence for five-six thousand years, that China was always the Homeland of Dragon, and the Chinese were famous for being the "Progenies of Dragon" {Long de chuanren). Even the idea of a part of the social functions of the dragon symbol might originate from India was unacceptable because it hurt the Chinese pride in their thousand years of affinity with Long. This, in a way, underlines the daunting task of popularizing the Sino-Indian perspective among Chinese (and also Indian) scholars while studying the history and culture of India and China. The Sino-Indian perspective involved here is to treat Chinese and Indian cultures not as two separate entities developing in isolation, but as the two faces of the same culture developing in different socio-cultural surroundings constantly benefited by interface synergy. The mystification of the supernatural power of snake in India and Long in China was the product of agriculture of both the countries. While we don't have concrete evidence for the Indian input in the imagination of the pre. Buddhist Chinese Long, we certainly can trace the Indian influence on the Buddhist (and post Buddhist, if you wish) Chinese Long. For one thing, the artifacts that symbolize Long created in pre-Buddhist China are by and large free from the fierce look that typifies the Buddhist Long (like the Chinese say, "zhangya wuzhua", i.e. baring its teeth and waving its claws) which clearly demonstrate the inner social function of LonglDragon as the guardian of the imperial system. It is in this function that we clearly see the Indian contribution.

To recapitulate what I have spelt out elsewhere, during the pre-Buddhist period, even as late as the Han Dynasty, the Dragon/Long was treated as a "beast" (chu). The famous Han scholar, Wang Chong (27-97?), cited Chinese traditions like Long being reared so that people could eat its liver.3 But, in Indian legends, Siva was a Naga, Buddha was also a Naga, and the Indian traditions of Nagaraja performing the role of a guardian-angel for the God/Buddha and the sacred treasure. It was this message which was driven home in Chinese oral culture as well as literary tradition. Only after absorbing this cultural function from the Indian Nagaraja did the Chinese Long become a close companion of the Chinese imperial families in all dynasties from Sui. Tang till the Manchu. Another clear Chinese borrowing from India is the "Dragon-King" (Longwang) from the Indian Nagaraja. China scholars have found that this cult of Longwang has settled deeply in China's socio-cultural chemistry as many penetrating studies, like that of Prasenjit Duara, who has included Longwang in his projection of the "cultural nexus of power" in China.4 Longwang/Dragon King is undisputably the symbol of Sino-Indian cultural twinhood that demonstrates the existence of Snake- Power Twins of India and China.


Uloopi is mentioned in this link.

Added ltr: It also shows extent and reach of the Naga Empire.
Now, this could be relevant to both Maya Danava and the topic at hand, it is mentioned that Nazis had found large hollow spaces within earth and below the ocean which accorded them direct access to the Antartic region from South Africa, below is the vedic narrative which is mythological but gives us some kind of clue as to what that hollow space could be. That hollow space could be one such example from what is written below.

Chapter 24: The Subterranean Heavenly Planets

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam

SB 5.24 Summary

SB 5.24.7: My dear King, beneath this earth are seven other planets, known as <b>Atala, Vitala, Sutala, Talatala, Mahatala, Rasatala and Patala</b>. I have already explained the situation of the planetary systems of earth. The width and length of the seven lower planetary systems are calculated to be exactly the same as those of earth.

SB 5.24.8: In these seven planetary systems, which are also known as the subterranean heavens [bila-svarga], there are very beautiful houses, gardens and places of sense enjoyment, which are even more opulent than those in the higher planets because the demons have a very high standard of sensual pleasure, wealth and influence. Most of the residents of these planets, who are known as Daityas, Danavas and Nagas, live as householders. Their wives, children, friends and society are all fully engaged in illusory, material happiness. The sense enjoyment of the demigods is sometimes disturbed, but the residents of these planets enjoy life without disturbances. Thus they are understood to be very attached to illusory happiness.

SB 5.24.9: <b>My dear King, in the imitation heavens known as bila-svarga there is a great demon named Maya Danava, who is an expert artist and architect</b>. He has constructed many brilliantly decorated cities. There are many wonderful houses, walls, gates, assembly houses, temples, yards and temple compounds, as well as many hotels serving as residential quarters for foreigners. The houses for the leaders of these planets are constructed with the most valuable jewels, <b>and they are always crowded with living entities known as Nagas and Asuras</b>, as well as many pigeons, parrots and similar birds. All in all, these imitation heavenly cities are most beautifully situated and attractively decorated.

SB 5.24.10: The parks and gardens in the artificial heavens surpass in beauty those of the upper heavenly planets. The trees in those gardens, embraced by creepers, bend with a heavy burden of twigs with fruits and flowers, and therefore they appear extraordinarily beautiful. That beauty could attract anyone and make his mind fully blossom in the pleasure of sense gratification. There are many lakes and reservoirs with clear, transparent water, agitated by jumping fish and decorated with many flowers such as lilies, kuvalayas, kahlaras and blue and red lotuses. Pairs of cakravakas and many other water birds nest in the lakes and always enjoy in a happy mood, making sweet, pleasing vibrations that are very satisfying and conducive to enjoyment of the senses.

SB 5.24.11: Since there is no sunshine in those subterranean planets, time is not divided into days and nights, and consequently fear produced by time does not exist.

SB 5.24.12: Many great serpents reside there with gems on their hoods, and the effulgence of these gems dissipates the darkness in all directions.

SB 5.24.13: Since the residents of these planets drink and bathe in juices and elixirs made from wonderful herbs, they are freed from all anxieties and physical diseases. They have no experience of grey hair, wrinkles or invalidity, their bodily lusters do not fade, their perspiration does not cause a bad smell, and they are not troubled by fatigue or by lack of energy or enthusiasm due to old age.

SB 5.24.14: They live very auspiciously and do not fear death from anything but death's established time, which is the effulgence of the Sudarsana cakra of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

SB 5.24.15: When the Sudarsana disc enters those provinces, the pregnant wives of the demons all have miscarriages due to fear of its effulgence.

SB 5.24.16: My dear King, now I shall describe to you the lower planetary systems, one by one, beginning from Atala. <b>In Atala there is a demon, the son of Maya Danava named Bala, who created ninety-six kinds of mystic power</b>. Some so-called yogis and svamis take advantage of this mystic power to cheat people even today. Simply by yawning, the demon Bala created three kinds of women, known as svairini, kamini and pumscali. The svairinis like to marry men from their own group, the kaminis marry men from any group, and the pumscalis change husbands one after another. If a man enters the planet of Atala, these women immediately capture him and induce him to drink an intoxicating beverage made with a drug known as hataka [cannabis indica]. This intoxicant endows the man with great sexual prowess, of which the women take advantage for enjoyment. A woman will enchant him with attractive glances, intimate words, smiles of love and then embraces. In this way she induces him to enjoy sex with her to her full satisfaction. Because of his increased sexual power, the man thinks himself stronger than ten thousand elephants and considers himself most perfect. Indeed, illusioned and intoxicated by false pride, he thinks himself God, ignoring impending death.

SB 5.24.17: The next planet below Atala is Vitala, wherein Lord Siva, who is known as the master of gold mines, lives with his personal associates, the ghosts and similar living entities. Lord Siva, as the progenitor, engages in sex with Bhavani, the progenitress, to produce living entities, and from the mixture of their vital fluid the river named Hataki is generated. When fire, being made to blaze by the wind, drinks of this river and then sizzles and spits it out, it produces gold called Hataka. The demons who live on that planet with their wives decorate themselves with various ornaments made from that gold, and thus they live there very happily.

SB 5.24.18: Below the planet Vitala is another planet, known as Sutala, where the great son of Maharaja Virocana, Bali Maharaja, who is celebrated as the most pious king, resides even now. For the welfare of Indra, the King of heaven, Lord Vishnu appeared in the form of a dwarf brahmacari as the son of Aditi and tricked Bali Maharaja by begging for only three paces of land but taking all the three worlds. Being very pleased with Bali Maharaja for giving all his possessions, the Lord returned his kingdom and made him richer than the opulent King Indra. Even now, Bali Maharaja engages in devotional service by worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the planet of Sutala.

SB 5.24.19: My dear King, Bali Maharaja donated all his possessions to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vamanadeva, but one should certainly not conclude that he achieved his great worldly opulence in bila-svarga as a result of his charitable disposition. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the source of life for all living entities, lives within everyone as the friendly Supersoul, and under His direction a living entity enjoys or suffers in the material world. Greatly appreciating the transcendental qualities of the Lord, Bali Maharaja offered everything at His lotus feet. His purpose, however, was not to gain anything material, but to become a pure devotee. For a pure devotee, the door of liberation is automatically opened. One should not think that Bali Maharaja was given so much material opulence merely because of his charity. When one becomes a pure devotee in love, he may also be blessed with a good material position by the will of the Supreme Lord. However, one should not mistakenly think that the material opulence of a devotee is the result of his devotional service. The real result of devotional service is the awakening of pure love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, which continues under all circumstances.

SB 5.24.20: If one who is embarrassed by hunger or who falls down or stumbles chants the holy name of the Lord even once, willingly or unwillingly, he is immediately freed from the reactions of his past deeds. Karmis entangled in material activities face many difficulties in the practice of mystic yoga and other endeavors to achieve that same freedom.

SB 5.24.21: The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is situated in everyone's heart as the Supersoul, sells Himself to His devotees such as Narada Muni. In other words, the Lord gives pure love to such devotees and gives Himself to those who love Him purely. Great, self-realized mystic yogis such as the four Kumaras also derive great transcendental bliss from realizing the Supersoul within themselves.

SB 5.24.22: The Supreme Personality of Godhead did not award His mercy to Bali Maharaja by giving him material happiness and opulence, for these make one forget loving service to the Lord. The result of material opulence is that one can no longer absorb his mind in the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

SB 5.24.23: When the Supreme Personality of Godhead could see no other means of taking everything away from Bali Maharaja, He adopted the trick of begging from him and took away all the three worlds. Thus only his body was left, but the Lord was still not satisfied. He arrested Bali Maharaja, bound him with the ropes of Varuna and threw him in a cave in a mountain. Nevertheless, although all his property was taken and he was thrown into a cave, Bali Maharaja was such a great devotee that he spoke as follows.

SB 5.24.24: Alas, how pitiable it is for Indra, the King of heaven, that although he is very learned and powerful and although he chose Brihaspati as his prime minister to instruct him, he is completely ignorant concerning spiritual advancement. Brihaspati is also unintelligent because he did not properly instruct his disciple Indra. Lord Vamanadeva was standing at Indra's door, but King Indra, instead of begging Him for an opportunity to render transcendental loving service, engaged Him in asking me for alms to gain the three worlds for his sense gratification. Sovereignty over the three worlds is very insignificant because whatever material opulence one may possess lasts only for an age of Manu, which is but a tiny fraction of endless time.

SB 5.24.25: Bali Maharaja said: My grandfather Prahlada Maharaja is the only person who understood his own self-interest. Upon the death of Prahlada's father, Hiranyakasipu, Lord Nrisimhadeva wanted to offer Prahlada his father's kingdom and even wanted to grant him liberation from material bondage, but Prahlada accepted neither. Liberation and material opulence, he thought, are obstacles to devotional service, and therefore such gifts from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are not His actual mercy. Consequently, instead of accepting the results of karma and jnana, Prahlada Maharaja simply begged the Lord for engagement in the service of His servant.

SB 5.24.26: Bali Maharaja said: Persons like us, who are still attached to material enjoyment, who are contaminated by the modes of material nature and who lack the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot follow the supreme path of Prahlada Maharaja, the exalted devotee of the Lord.

SB 5.24.27: Sukadeva Gosvami continued: My dear King, how shall I glorify the character of Bali Maharaja? The Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of the three worlds, who is most compassionate to His own devotee, stands with club in hand at Bali Maharaja's door. When Ravana, the powerful demon, came to gain victory over Bali Maharaja, Vamanadeva kicked him a distance of eighty thousand miles with His big toe. I shall explain the character and activities of Bali Maharaja later [in the Eighth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam].

SB 5.24.28: Beneath the planet known as Sutala is another planet, called Talatala, which is ruled by the Danava demon named Maya. Maya is known as the acarya [master] of all the mayavis, who can invoke the powers of sorcery. For the benefit of the three worlds, Lord Siva, who is known as Tripurari, once set fire to the three kingdoms of Maya, but later, being pleased with him, he returned his kingdom. Since that time, Maya Danava has been protected by Lord Siva, and therefore he falsely thinks that he need not fear the Sudarsana cakra of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

SB 5.24.29: The planetary system below Talatala is known as Mahatala. It is the abode of many-hooded snakes, descendants of Kadru, who are always very angry. The great snakes who are prominent are Kuhaka, Takshaka, Kaliya and Sushena. The snakes in Mahatala are always disturbed by fear of Garuda, the carrier of Lord Vishnu, but although they are full of anxiety, some of them nevertheless sport with their wives, children, friends and relatives.

SB 5.24.30: Beneath Mahatala is the planetary system known as Rasatala, which is the abode of the demoniac sons of Diti and Danu. They are called Panis, Nivata-kavacas, Kaleyas and Hiranya-puravasis [those living in Hiranya-pura]. They are all enemies of the demigods, and they reside in holes like snakes. From birth they are extremely powerful and cruel, and although they are proud of their strength, they are always defeated by the Sudarsana cakra of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who rules all the planetary systems. When a female messenger from Indra named Sarama chants a particular curse, the serpentine demons of Mahatala become very afraid of Indra.

SB 5.24.31: Beneath Rasatala is another planetary system, known as Patala or Nagaloka, where there are many demoniac serpents, the masters of Nagaloka, such as Sankha, Kulika, Mahasankha, Sveta, Dhananjaya, Dhritarashtra, Sankhacuda, Kambala, Asvatara and Devadatta. The chief among them is Vasuki. They are all extremely angry, and they have many, many hoods -- some snakes five hoods, some seven, some ten, others a hundred and others a thousand. These hoods are bedecked with valuable gems, and the light emanating from the gems illuminates the entire planetary system of bila-svarga.

Raju, I've some comments on your posts 230-232 above (and a correction to my post 229). I've put them at http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.ph...indpost&p=75402
as my post is about small things which are not even related to "2012". Besides, you and others would want to move on with the actual discussion without me interrupting and delaying every five minutes.
And just to complete the part about the bird sacrifice reported in 226.

The village is Jatinga, in Cachar Hills of interior Assam. Though the village is in Assam, it is populated by nAga-s.

<img src='http://nchills.gov.in/VISIT3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Here are some viewpoint about the annual event of bird-'suicide'.

From a travelog:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->TRIP REPORT  : JATINGA -30TH SEPTEMBER 1986-1ST OCTOBER 1986
By  Govind Kumar , P.O Box 88, Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Email : gkumar99@emirates.net.ae

This is a brief report of a visit to Jatinga , a beautiful valley 
in the North Cachar Hills District of Assam in 1986. 
The valley derives its name from  a small village inhabited by a
Jemi Naga tribe, about seven kilometres from Haflong,the district capital.
Accessible by road or rail from either Lumding or Silchar, the village sits
atop a ridge 742m high and 1.5 kilometres long.The well forested valley is
justly famous for its orange orchards, pineapple plantations and fruit trees.

Jatinga village is also the  site where  birds drop to lights put up by
villagers all along the ridge.

<b>The Nagas first noticed the phenomenon in 1905. </b>

<b>{Writer is writing this in 1986.  He does not mention the source of above observation. So, take the above statement with caution of course}</b>

The following conditions appear to be essential :
(a) Dense Fog
(b) Light Rain
© Southerly winds at speeds 5 to 10 kilometres per hour
(d) Lights placed at vantage points along the ridge.
          The birds drop only in September and October under favourable weather
conditions, rarely in August.
The temperature at this time of year ranges from 9 degrees C to 28 degrees C and
the humidity from 80 to 95 % With high winds, the birds drop lower down; otherwise
they go higher up.
          Bringing down  birds appeared to be a 'sport' with the villagers. Special
poles made of bamboo with tapering ends were used to bring down the birds . While most birds went straight into the pot, new species were taken to the ZSI scientist studying the phenomenon to be  identified. A couple of villagers, employees of the Assam Forest Department, had been trained in field identification and were equipped with field guides .

A ZSI survey had recorded 122 species in the valley in 1983, using mist netting.
Of these, 58 had dropped to the lights.

          When I sat up on the ridge between 8 PM on 30th September and 2 AM on
1st October, the temperature was 22 degrees C with light rain, thick fog and  fairly
strong southerly  winds and generally ideal conditions.

Hundreds of birds of the following species dropped or were brought down in this period:

1.    Red-legged Crake    ( Rallina fasciata )
2.    Slaty-breasted Rail ( Gallirallus striatus )
3.    White-breasted Waterhen  (Amaurornis phoenicurus)
4.    Indian Pond Heron  ( Ardeola grayii)
5.    Chinese Pond Heron ( Ardeola bacchus )
6.    Hooded Pitta   ( Pitta sordida)
7.    Watercock     ( Gallicrex cinerea )  Female
8.    Thick-billed Green Pigeon ( Treron curvirostra)
9.    Pompadour Green Pigeon ( Treron pompadora)
10.    Cinnamon Bittern  ( Ixobrychus cinnamomeus)
11.    Woodcock   ( Scolopax rusticola)
12.    Indian Cuckoo  ( Cuculus micropterus)
13.    Cattle Egret  ( Bubulcus ibis)
14.    Koel    (Eudynamys scolopacea)
15.    Ruddy Kingfisher  ( Halcyon coromanda)
16.    Oriental Dwarf Kingfisher ( Ceyx erithacus)

             I had the privilege of examining many of the smaller species in the hand.
Hooded Pitta was abundant and accounted for almost 60% of the birds that dropped. The
atmosphere was eerie with the silence of the night being broken only by the swish of
bamboo poles cutting through the air and the calls of disoriented birds flying about.
The villagers seemed adept at identification and could recognise species like O
riental Dwarf Kingfisher, Hooded Pitta and Pond Heron from  calls . Some  of the birds
bled profusely from wounds sustained while others appeared dazed.
            The Assam Forest Department had put up two watch towers (one on the ridge
and another lower down) to enable visitors observe the phenomenon at close hand. There
was also a small library with books on birds and some charts prepared by the Forest
Department detailing bird drops.
The Forest Department was also studying the 'post drop' behaviour of some species in captivity.

   Species seen from the lower watch tower on  1st October, in the morning :

1 Ruddy Kingfisher-Common; A large communal roost by a stream at the bottom of the valley
2 Lesser Rufous-headed Parrotbill-Common but not easy to see as the birds kept to thick
   bamboo clumps, uttering wheezy contact calls.
3 Large Cuckoo-Shrike -   Small groups of 5 or 6 birds
4 Oriental Hobby -  Solo
5 Mountain Imperial Pigeon - Several in flight
6 Hill Myna - Large flocks in flight
7 Blue-tailed Bee-eater - Large flock of 100-150 in flight , buffeted by  strong winds . Passage ?
8 Brown-backed Needletail-Flocks overhead in overcast conditions
9 Grey-backed Shrike- Common
10 Red-throated Flycatcher - Solitary male
11 Eurasian Blackbird - A few pairs on tall trees near the watch tower
12 Spangled Drongo - 4 in bird wave .
13 Red-rumped Swallow
14 Barn Swallow
15 Koel                     
16 Magpie-Robin
17 Red-vented Bulbul
18 Spotted Dove
19 Common Myna
20 White Wagtail                     

This is an old report and detailed coverage of this site (and more current information) may be found in the new Birdwatchers Guide to India by Kazmierczak and Singh.


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Assam plans to cash in on bird suicide village
11 Jun 2006, 2346 hrs IST,Kounteya Sinha,TNN

SMS NEWS to 58888 for latest updates
NEW DELHI: It's a phenomenon nobody has been able to explain for sure. But Jatinga's mysterious annual ritual of migratory birds committing mass suicide is all set to become Assam's latest tourist attraction.

Assam's tourism ministry is currently preparing a detailed development plan for this village, which is located in North Cachar Hill district, 330 km south of Guwahati.

The village's interior setting and lack of proper infrastructure has been limiting the arrival of tourists, keen to witness the rare phenomenon of bird-suicides, that has baffled ornithologists for more than a century now.

According to Assam's tourism secretary S C Panda, the technically sound and commercially viable development plan would include improving the houses of local villagers for guests to stay, creating sight-seeing points and improving the roads leading to the village.

The plan will be submitted to the Centre for sanction by mid-July. "District officials have been told to finalise the plan proposal by June 30. A final meeting will then chalk out the exact proposals, which will be submitted to the Centre by mid-July.

Because Jatinga is a village inside dense forests, the Forest Conservation Act does not allow us to buy land around the village and set up lodges, guest houses and hotels for visiting tourists," Panda said.

"That's why we have decided to improve the houses of the 2,500 local Jaintia tribal people where tourists can stay. Bathrooms and living rooms will be added to the village huts.

The approach road to the village will also be improved. Bird suicide viewing sites will be created for tourists to take photographs," Panda said.

At present, Jatinga attracts over 500 tourists a month between October to March to witness this rare sight. Most of them don't stay the night due to lack of infrastructure.

Those who do, have only one option - the forest guest house near the village. There is also just one elevated watch tower from where one can see the birds yielding to their death wish.

Just nine km from Haflong, migratory birds come to Jatinga at the end of the monsoon months. During moonless and dark foggy nights, between 7 pm and 10 pm, birds fly and come crashing to the ground with no prior warning.

According to some theories, the birds become disoriented because of the presence of lights, the high altitude and high speed winds due to the widespread fog, and crash into the ground.

Officials say 44 species of migratory birds, including Tiger Bittern, Black Bittern, Little Egret, Pond Heron, Indian Pitta and Kingfishers, take part in this phenomenon.

Interestingly, the birds are not attracted to the entire Jatinga Ridge but only to a well-defined strip, 1.5 km long and 200 metres wide. Also, no long-distance migratory bird is attracted to the light traps. The victims are resident birds of adjacent valleys and hill slopes.

In fact, some of the birds are still alive even after they crash into the ground. But the local villagers kill for their meat.

Conservation groups have taken steps to prevent this killing of the birds, by creating awareness among the illiterate villagers. Since then, the number of birds killed has decreased by about 40%.

Meanwhile, officials said Jatinga will also be part of a tourism circuit that will portray the beauty of Haflong lake. Houseboats like that in Srinagar's Dal Lake will also be created. 

The end of the world as we know it
Doomsday scenarios and their probability or idiocy

By Patrick Griffith
Thursday, November 15, 2007 at 12:05 PM

It’s a normal day; there’s nothing out of the ordinary to differentiate it from yesterday or tomorrow, until small asteroids start pelting the earth from all sides. And it gets worse­—much worse. In a matter of days an asteroid possibly larger than the state of Texas (although the residents of Texas might strongly disagree) could obliterate everything. That’s when the dashing Harry Stamper steps in to put the fate of the world on his shoulders. Stamper and his crew go out to destroy the asteroid and save the world all to the melodic and symphonic sounds of Aerosmith’s “I don’t want to miss a thing.”

People are enthralled with how the world could end. This intrigue is exemplified by the vast number of movies that deal with the end of the world. Michael Bay’s film, Armageddon, about an asteroid capable of destroying earth, is just one of many. According to www.Imdbpro.com, Armageddon took in $36.1 million in its opening weekend alone, on the way to grossing about $555 million worldwide. Zombie movies are also a popular draw with their ties to the apocalyptic idea of the walking dead. These movies also embody the widespread fascination with the end of the world. With recent films like Dawn of the Dead and Resident Evil: Extinction grossing $58 and $106 million respectively worldwide.

From a killer asteroid, to the end of the Mayan calendar to the biblical apocalypse, the end of the world has been played out on the silver screen or the small screen many a time, but what is the possibility of something like a killer asteroid? There are dates looming in the distant and not-so-distant future with the mysterious end of the Maya calendar in December of 2012, to an asteroid that is projected to come eerily close, but not hit earth, in 2029.

Doomsday asteroid

In 2029 an asteroid called 2004 MN4 will come within 18,600 miles of earth. It is expected to fly between the earth and the moon, says John S. Lewis, professor of cosmochemistry planetary atmospheres at the University of Arizona, Tucson. The asteroid will be closer to the earth than earth’s satellites. The 2004 MN4 asteroid will come close enough to us that earth’s gravitational pull will strongly affect the path of the asteroid, and after that, it will be difficult to map exactly where the asteroid will go, he says. Lewis is the author of books such as Mining the Sky and Rain of Iron and Ice.

The exact size of the asteroid that will come close to earth in 2029 is hard to determine, but it is estimated to be a couple of football fields in diameter based on its brightness, Lewis says.

There are about 1,200 asteroids that come close to Earth or cross Earth’s orbit, Lewis says. The average asteroid lasts 30 million years, and it flies around until it runs into a planet. Approximately every 100,000 years, a 1-kilometer sized object will hit Earth, which could be regionally disastrous. For example, a 1-kilometer asteroid would all but eliminate the Netherlands, he says. Asteroids are quite diverse in their make-up. They can be made of steel, clay minerals, sulfite minerals, and they have a typical impact speed of 25-30 km per second.

In terms of the end of the world, Lewis says, it won’t come from an asteroid. The planet won’t be destroyed because planets are too robust.

“It takes a lot to do in a planet,” Lewis says.

But there is something we can do to possibly avoid an asteroid attack in the future. An asteroid’s orbit can be changed by setting off a nuclear explosion near it that could deflect its path, Lewis says. The asteroid would then recoil away from the explosion, missing Earth instead of hitting it. Further destruction could also be avoided using rocket engines on the asteroid to divert it away from Earth, Lewis says.

<b>The end of the Mayan calendar</b>

More eminent than an asteroid is the end of the Mayan calendar. The calendar ends in a little more than five years, on December 21, 2012.

Maya expert John Major Jenkins says that the calendar is the most important thing the Maya left behind. He has written several books on the subject, like Maya Cosmogenesis 2012: The True Meaning of the Maya Calendar End-Date and Galactic Alignment: The Transformation of Consciousness According to Mayan, Egyptian, and Vedic Traditions. He says the loudest interpretation of the calendar, incorrectly so, is that it signals doomsday. Coming to this conclusion is understandable, Jenkins says, in a nihilistic civilization and in an era of spiritual darkness, apathy and ignorance. Authors that link 2012 with doom are simply spreading fear-based talking points, he says.

Western nihilists see the end of the calendar as indicative of doomsday. The Maya wisdom teachers who invented the 2012 calendar say it means transformation and renewal, Jenkins says, because of the cyclical nature of the calendar; a cyclical nature that makes the future unpredictable. “It’s similar to a newborn insisting on someone telling them what its new life will be like,” Jenkins says.

He also explains the end of the Mayan calendar and its cyclical nature in terms of adjacent days. The process of a day is cyclical; day becomes night, then the sun rises again and the day is renewed. Asking what will happen December 22, 2012, is similar to asking what exactly will happen tomorrow, he says.

“The insistence on details is not answerable,” Jenkins says.

Biblical Apocalypse

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.”

That is the first line of the Book of Revelations; the final book in the New Testament, a book that describes the biblical end of the world.

KU Religious studies professor Timothy Miller says the book is attributed to Saint John, and it is thought to have been written toward the end of the first century. The book is full of coded messages because during the Roman Empire under Emperor Domitian Christians were terribly persecuted.

The Book of Revelation predicts great sufferings at the end of the world, he says. The true Christians will survive the suffering and will be ready for paradise. Some predict it as the end of the world, and it almost works as a textbook describing the end of the world, Miller says.

The book is packed wall-to-wall with symbols, images and metaphors; he says It’s visual writing, so it all has to be interpreted, Miller says.

“You can make it say almost anything you want it to,” he says.

The phrase “the end of the world” can mean different things to different people. Some might think it’s the destruction of the human race, and some may think it means the destruction of the planet earth. Either way you differentiate the meaning of the phrase “the end of the world,” everybody is interested in it.

<b>Is a New Solar Cycle Beginning?</b>

Dec. 14, 2007: The solar physics community is abuzz this week. No, there haven't been any great eruptions or solar storms. The source of the excitement is a modest knot of magnetism that popped over the sun's eastern limb on Dec. 11th, pictured below in a pair of images from the orbiting Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO).

It may not look like much, but "this patch of magnetism could be a sign of the next solar cycle," says solar physicist David Hathaway of the Marshall Space Flight Center.
<img src='http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/images/excitement/activeregion_duo_crop.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Above: From SOHO, a UV-wavelength image of the sun and a map showing positive (white) and negative (black) magnetic polarities. The new high-latitude active region is magnetically reversed, marking it as a harbinger of a new solar cycle.

For more than a year, the sun has been experiencing a lull in activity, marking the end of Solar Cycle 23, which peaked with many furious storms in 2000--2003. "Solar minimum is upon us," he says.

The big question now is, when will the next solar cycle begin?

It could be starting now.

"New solar cycles always begin with a high-latitude, reversed polarity sunspot," explains Hathaway. "Reversed polarity " means a sunspot with opposite magnetic polarity compared to sunspots from the previous solar cycle. "High-latitude" refers to the sun's grid of latitude and longitude. Old cycle spots congregate near the sun's equator. New cycle spots appear higher, around 25 or 30 degrees latitude.

The region that appeared on Dec. 11th fits both these criteria. It is high latitude (24 degrees N) and magnetically reversed. Just one problem: There is no sunspot. So far the region is just a bright knot of magnetic fields. If, however, these fields coalesce into a dark sunspot, scientists are ready to announce that Solar Cycle 24 has officially begun.

Below: Solar Cycle 23 is coming to an end. What's next? Image credit: NOAA/Space Weather Prediction Center.

<img src='http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/images/excitement/cycle23_strip.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<b>Many forecasters believe Solar Cycle 24 will be big and intense. Peaking in 2011 or 2012,</b> the cycle to come could have significant impacts on telecommunications, air traffic, power grids and GPS systems. (And don't forget the Northern Lights!) In this age of satellites and cell phones, the next solar cycle could make itself felt as never before.

The furious storms won't start right away, however. Solar cycles usually take a few years to build to a frenzy and Cycle 24 will be no exception. "We still have some quiet times ahead," says Hathaway.

Meanwhile, all eyes are on a promising little active region. Will it become the first sunspot of a new solar cycle? Stay tuned for updates from Science@NASA.


Raju, Look at the folks who were behind the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Mostly all theoretical physicists. Wonder if they were trying to carry on where the Nazis left off?

Arun, Randheer do you recall a presentation last year?

The Nazis were pursuing Hindu knowledge of occult during WWII. After the defeat the West started tapping these yogis to see if they have some thing going. There is a deep interest in Hinduism among physicists- Oppenheimer etc. It is interesting that John Hagelin is also a theoretical physicist from Dartmouth, Harvard and Stanford. What is he doing in Mahesh Yogi's company?
Dark Mission:Secret history of NASA

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Dark Mission by Richard C. Hoagland
Book Review by Dr. Ali Fant, WB5WAF, 12DE2007

This review is from the perspective of a former NASA Manned Spaceflight Controller, so it is more technical than expository. I first encountered Hoagland's claims through the NASA Technical Alert Briefing viewed by many controllers at the Johnson Space Center in 1989-90, found his claims creditable, and then discovered the briefing tape "disappeared" from the closed JSC Technical Library - from both the open card catalog and the closed shelf listing catalog. As a former university library page, I was shocked to find all references to the briefing tape we controllers viewed were gone two years later. When I began investigating the matter, I was told in no uncertain terms to cease any search for the missing library records.

Key Findings from Dark Mission:

1. NASA is a defense agency of the US Government per the original agency charter.

2. NASA withholds data of non-human intelligence for the good of human society per "Brookings."

3. Brookings Institution advised US in 1959 report "Proposed Studies on the Implications of Peaceful Space Activities for Human Affairs" to beware social-economic chaos resulting from alien artifacts found on the Moon or Mars as the 1938 "War of the Worlds" radio broadcast traumatized America.

4. Arthur C. Clarke based the 1968 novel/film "2001: A Space Odyssey" on the Brookings Report.

5. According to Clarke's 1968 Playboy Magazine interview, Stanley Kubrick quoted from Brookings in the film. The following movie dialog being based upon the "Brookings Report":
"I'm sure you're aware of the extremely grave potential for cultural shock and social disorientation contained in the present situation, if the facts were prematurely and suddenly made public without adequate preparation and conditioning. Anyway, this is the view of the [Space] Council... there must be adequate time for a full study to be made of the situation before any thought can be given to making a public announcement. Oh yes ... as some of you know, the Council has requested that formal security oaths be obtained in writing from everyone who has any knowledge of this event." -- Dr. Heywood Floyd, 2001: A Space Odyssey.

6. As a Manned Spaceflight Controller for NASA's last publicly acknowledged military shuttle mission, I remember taking this formal security oath to safeguard information on such flights. However, unlike all other US Government security oaths I have had in my lifetime, the NASA oath was never "terminated." That is, I never went through a formal debriefing. I questioned this lack of a debrief with NASA Security at the time and was told the Security office was already disbanded and no debriefing would be held.

7. Hoagland's retelling of the "Monuments of Mars" matches the NASA Alert Briefing the controllers and I saw in 1989-90 in the now "non-existent" tape from the JSC Technical Library.

8. Hoagland's explanation of "hyperdimensional physics" is too complex to be included here. Suffice it to say that I have studied the data, examined the historical connections between Oliver Heaviside (1850-1925), James Maxwell (1831-1879), Nikola Tesla (1856-1943), Thomas E. Bearden (1930-), Bruce DePalma (1935-1997), and Harold E Puthoff (1936-); and found the evidence convincing.

9. The multiple-sourced, publicly available NASA photographs of the pyramids, buildings, and connecting roads between the structures on Mars demonstrate the presence of ancient peoples on the planet. This is old news to most space news junkies. Second Astronaut on the Moon, Buzz Aldrin even released a "fiction" book Encounter With Tiber (1996) incorporating many of these Mars details. Aldrin's book had a storyline about ancient lunar structures being discovered by Apollo Astronauts. Arthur C. Clarke (surprise!) even wrote the foreword to Aldrin's book. Because the story line is fiction, any revealed details would not violate Aldrin's formal security oath. This was the same approach Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) took with his book "proving" the revolution of the planets - the book was originally written as a work of fiction. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church did not appreciate the humor of Galileo putting the words of the Pope into the mouth of Simplico (the fool).

10. And, just in case you missed it, there is a connection between NASA's Werner Von Braun and the Disney World "Mission to the Moon" (later restaged as "Mission to Mars," and featured in the excellent Disney produced films "Forbidden Planet" and "Mission to Mars." The latter film's climax is the "Face On Mars." However, coincidences do not make conspiracies.

11. Hoagland does an excellent job detailing the "Operation Paper Clip" removal of Nazi Germany rocket scientists to Texas as detailed in the James Michener's book and 1985 mini-TV series "SPACE" - even including National Archives photographs of Von Braun in his black SS uniform alongside Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler. The occult history of Hitler is well documented by other authors, but Hoagland claims the occult influence extended from the SS to Von Braun to even the selection of NASA Mission Patches.

12. Hoagland sees a connection between Freemasonry (33rd degree), Von Braun\Disney production film "Man in Space," and the "fiction" film's representation of an alien base on the farside of the Moon. It is just another coincidence that CIA Remote Viewer Ingo Swann saw an operational alien base in the same location prior to 1998.

13. The spiritual aspects of UFOlogy, Adolf Hitler's birthday (April 20), 19.5 degrees location of planetary "hotspots" (on the Earth, the Moon, Mars, Jupiter, etc), the number 33 (Launch Complex 33, Shuttle Runway 33, 333 degrees from Egypt's Great Pyramid at Giza leads to JPL in California), and more and more numbers are overwhelmingly discussed by Hoagland in detail.

14. Finally, the greatest surprises in Hoagland's book are in the last ninety pages. These last few pages contain the explosive description of Lunar ruins, mechanical artifacts, and even an (I kid you not) ancient robot head not unlike the one shown in the Star Trek: The Next Generation Mark Twain episode of "Time's Arrow" when Data discovers his death lies in the past of San Francisco. The color photographs Apollo 17 Astronauts Eugene Cernan (1934-) and Harrison Schmitt (1936-) took of the robot head in Crater Shorty have recently been released to Italian websites by NASA. Italy? Hey, the Catholic Church is headquartered in that nation ... just another coincidence. Hoagland postulates that the mechanical head could have easily been transported back to Earth.

15. Other NASA photographs show crystal domes once covered many of the Maria on the Moon. Apollo 10 photographed at least one unbroken crystal dome, blacked-out in the official NASA print catalog, but if ordered by anyone today shows the intact dome. Since the 1990s, many researchers are specifically ordering these "black-out" lunar catalog prints to be stunned by what actually arrives in the mail. Hoagland publishes many of the photographs.

16. Remember when Apollo 17 deliberately crashed the ascent stage into the Moon to measure the moonquakes using previously implanted seismic monitors? Such a moonquake map would show the placement of the newly revealed structures on the NASA photographs. However, after more than thirty years, the results still remain classified - on a civilian scientific Moon mission.

17. Hoagland's book is having an effect on NASA today. Last year, NASA engineers suddenly "found" high-quality TV recordings of the Apollo 11 mission in Australia. Then, high quality "close-to-the-original" Apollo photographs were released to international public websites detailing the shattered crystal domes on the Moon. Next, NASA began posting thousands of never-before-seen "best" scanned pictures. This year (2007), NASA released for the first time the truly spy-camera quality photographs of the "Face on Mars" - showing details down to 11 inches. The vehicle and wheel tracks of the Opportunity Rover are clearly visible, as is the Face.

18. Living astronauts refuse to comment on much of Hoagland's expose citing various reasons. Apparently, even the Coast-to-Coast Radio Show scheduled a "debate" between Hoagland and an astronaut, but the astronaut cancelled the engagement at the last minute.

19. Twice flown astronaut, war hero, and Senator John Glenn requested a March 2001 appearance on the television NBC comedy Frasier. In the unusual episode, Glenn makes some very-unfunny comments directly to the viewing audience (out of earshot of Frasier and Roz) that are significance enough to repeat here: "Back in those glory days, I was very uncomfortable when they asked, you know, were you alone out there? We never gave the real answer, and yet we see things out there, strange things, but we know what we saw out there. And we couldn't really say anything. The bosses were really afraid of this, they were afraid of the `War of the Worlds' type stuff, and about panic in the streets. So, we had to keep quiet. And now we only see these things in our nightmares, or maybe in the movies, and some of them are pretty close to being the truth."

20. Astronaut Neil Armstrong began his highly emotional address on 20JL1994 at the White House with the statement that he compared himself to a parrot - saying only what he had been told to say. Armstrong ended his strange remarks with the phrase "truth's protective layers."

21. Astronaut Alan Bean draws his colorful Moonscapes paintings with diagonal markings perhaps to show the presence of shattered glass domes fragments.

22. Don't be too hard on the astronauts. I know former NASA employees who have had their lives thrown into turmoil by losing retirement pensions or having unexpected deaths.

23. Dark Mission lacks an index and perhaps the second edition will include one. I am reminded of the United States Central Intelligence Agency selling their entire data collection on Remote Viewing (on CD-ROMS) without an index. An index would have made it too easy for someone, somewhere to censor Hoagland's book.

24. Recent Moon News: Japan SELENE arrived Moon 05OC2007, China CHANGLE arrived Moon 27NV2007, India CHANDRAAYAN to arrive Moon 2008, US LRO to arrive Moon 2008, Russia Lunar Rover to arrive Moon 2010, and US GRAIL to arrive Moon 2011.

25. After thirty years of no manned missions to the Moon, why the sudden race for governments to return there? Even in the midst of a major war in the Middle East, governments are making a decision to return to the Moon as soon as possible. Check out the recently released Apollo photographs on the web and decide for yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

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