Rama Setu -1

[Guest]

Neelan,
First remove one Makbara and Mosque from road in CP, New Delhi. Govt can't expand road because of those man made structure. And then tell Hindus to be opened minded.

For Hindus, Ram Sethu is emotional link to religion, culture and History.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Commies and the LTTE have been wanting to cause trouble in this region and delay this project for decades. They finally got desperate enough in 2005/2006 because the project was actually moving ... and set up the trap for the u-no-hus to walk in and accelerate the protests and become the expendables in the agitation.

It is soooooo easy to get some people to join a bandwagon - just have to mention something vague about "Hindu tradition.... Ram ... Krishna....Hanuman... " and then sit back and<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think first fix Paki, commie, SIMI, and Chini border, those who are already inside and causing problem. Why worry about those who are outside?
Read Ramayana and your vagueness will disappear. Your scare tactics are similar to commies who scream, they are coming, they are coming…..

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Apr 19 2007, 12:55 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Apr 19 2007, 12:55 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->First remove one Makbara and Mosque from road in CP, New Delhi. Govt can't expand road because of those man made structure. And then tell Hindus to be opened minded.
[right][snapback]67404[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Mudy, do you know that the same Angelica Soni who said No Question Arises For Setu To Be Heritage, replied to another question in the <b>same </b>parliamentary session as follows:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Q# 1508
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY 
Will the Minister of CULTURE be pleased to state whether it is a fact that the Archaeological Survey of India cleared the road at National Highway-24 with Lodhi Road through a tunnel near the Humayun tomb? 
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Her reply:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->MINISTER FOR TOURISM AND CULTURE (SHRIMATI AMBIKA SONI)

The Archaeological Survey of India had issued a conditional No Objection Certificate (NOC) for the proposal of the Link Road connecting NH-24 by pass to Lodhi Road through a tunnel passing at a distance of 340 metres from the Humayun’s Tomb. As the response of the Delhi Administration to the conditionalities has not been received, the NOC has been suspended. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Good. Nice and prompt action by ASI. Just contrast it with her response to Setu question.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Humayun tomb<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is still major site, but that small Mosque with no significance and Makbara of who knows what, Govt don't have guts to expand road. Half of the Mosque is on road.
Angelica Soni is from so-called OBC after marriage, good marriage gift. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[dhu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hills_Gold_Rush

Here's a parallel case for sacred site takeover from amrikan history: In 1860, an amrikan catholic missionary starts a rumor that the Sioux are mining/hoarding gold in their most sacred Devasthanam, the Black Hills of Dakota. In addition to a mad stampede of amrikan gold-diggers, all sorts of specious arguments are drawn up by the US government regarding economic integration of the Black Hills, etc. Eventually, it is pointed out that the Sioux were warring with the Cheyenne over these Hills and thus can have no priority over the Hills; or otherwise be trusted with the economic value of the Land. I'm quite sure there were quite a few rational types arguing how ridiculous it was for the Sioux to honor this mere geological phenomenon, etc.

End result: Desecration of the most sacred Native American site. Years earlier, the Sioux had negotiated a treaty with the American government that they would give up all their lands, except for the Black Hills, which they could never compromise on.

[Guest]

Mudy, I know you are a venerated Admin at IF, so with all deepest respect, may I ask why your post is not "ad hominem attack", bringing in red herrings that have nothing to do with the SSC project, and generally attacking the postor instead of giving facts relevant to the topic?

Let me repeat the sections of your post above:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Neelan,
First remove one Makbara and Mosque from road in CP, New Delhi. Govt can't expand road because of those man made structure. And then tell Hindus to be opened minded.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Er... above, you ordered me not to represent Hindus (which I have not tried to do). Now you are ordering me to go remove mosques in New Delhi? If I cannot represent Hindus, how can I lead the charge to destroy these moques?

Also, are you saying that the "Hindu Opposition" to the SSC project off the coast of Tamil Nadu, is really because of the Hindu "not-open-mindedness" arising out of the injustices in New Dehi? So the logic is:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't destroy THEIR man-made structure in New Dehi, so we won't let you destroy OUR MAN-Mad(er.. Vanara-made).. I mean, "natural" ... structure off the coast of India in Tamil Nadu<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your movement is to put sand in the mouths of the children of Rameshwaram just because you have some complaint against some jerks in New Delhi?

I thought, from reading the other great postors' statements here, that the opposition was because of the atrocities against the Kanchi Sankaracharya, Placing a Statue of EVR outside a Hindu Temple, etc. etc. At least those are geographically closer to the SSC than New Delhi!

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>I think first fix Paki, commie, SIMI, and Chini border, those who are already inside and causing problem. Why worry about those who are outside?</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So then all the rest of IF can pack up, can't it? Can I have until Tuesday to "fix Paki, commie, SIMI and Chini border", please?


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Read Ramayana and your vagueness will disappear. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ah, yes, but I have and that is why I am not being vague, unlike the respected postors here.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Your scare tactics are similar to commies who scream, they are coming, they are coming…..<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't see you saying that to the postors who threatened me and "narayanan" with the following:
1. Sending allegations to "our" government(s).
2. "Drop Dead!"
3. "Get lost!"
4. "Get off this thread!"

etc. etc.

Wonder how the fellow knew what government that is? Are the admins sharing my IP info with postors who threaten violence? In this age? Did you read about the Virginia Tech shooter? At least two of the postors here who have been abusing narayanan and me, don't send warning bells ringing to you? You deleted narayanan's post listing "Srini"'s threats, but did not delete Srini's post.

If you didn't find <b>those</b> "scary" and did not feel like you had to even warn those postors to start behaving like adults, why are you scared at being told that the Maoists (they used to call themselves "Marxist Leninists" ) of AID-India were far ahead of the RSS in opposing the project, it is only now that the "Hindus" have decided to join the Maoist bandwagon. THAT is scary to you? Wow!

From this, Mudy, I have to conclude that you are unable to separate your personal opinions about this project, which are of course very welcome anywhere, from your Admin responsibilities. Doesn't your version of the Ramayana have anything to say about that, Mudy?

What is clearly seen above is:

1. The SSC project has been seriously discussed since the 19th century.
2. In 1999, the BJP NDA government finally agreed to listen to the demands from the Tamil Nadu and Kerala and Andhra governments, (TN and Andhra were in the NDA coalition then) to push the project forward seriously. All concerns about national security (which is a driver of the project), marine sanctuaries, coastal fish farms, tides, currents and religious sentiments were considered, in MANY public hearings.

3. The PM's office (Vajpayee) sent a detailed list of tough questions summarizing the concerns to the SSC project. The questions and the answers are published and visible on the website of the project. I am assuming here that the PM and deputy PM of the NDA government were well aware of the Ramayana, having put their lives and liberty on the line to fight for Hindu rights and justice at Ayodhya.

4. Satisfied, the GOI went ahead with the best possible configuration of the channel under the circumstances. The dredging was to be done as far away as possible from land, faaar out of sight of the coast, so that it would in no way disturb any worship or ceremonies of Hindus or anyone else.

5. The Maoists, the LTTE, the Conversionists and various other groups that stood to lose if the region was developed and security was improved, got support, presumably from the Chinese Communists and the British to obstruct the project.

6. In 2004, the GOI and TNG changed. So the political equation changed. Suddenly, the commies and the LTTE saw the opportunity to get some additional support. So the strategy changed in late 2005/2006 from "natural reef and eco-system will be disturbed, oooo! environmental disaster!" to "oldest man-made (vanara-made) structure in the universe is about to the DESTROYED"

7. In 2006 the "NASA Images" with the Photoshop editing hit the web. In early 2007, the RSS passed a Resolution condemning the project.

8. Several postors here became convinced that their whole Heritage was about to be destroyed.

Have I missed anything?

Isn't it fair to conclude that the "Hindu" opposition to this project is not based on anything factual or reasonable? Pressed on the logic behind their opposition, the postors have just become incredibly abusive, which shows that they have enough sense to know that they have painted themselves into a corner, but it remains to be seen whether they have sense to admit that and move on.

So, Mudy, there is no "scare tactic" that "The commies are coming". The fact is, the commies were there long ago, and had dug the pits. Now those who claim to represent all of "Hindus" (note: these postors seem to assume that all Hindus share their view on whether India enhance security by allowing ships to cut through the Palk Strait) have walked into the pits. As usual.

And you, Mudy, are right now the one making ad hominem attacks. I may be a "newbie" on India-Forum, but I wasn't born yesterday, and when people use rants and abuse and start quoting passages from religious epics as they say "this is my last post!" as one postor has done above, that means they have lost the argument on facts and logic.

Bottom line: There is no substance to this agitation. It is simply destroying the credibility of Hindus, and painting all of us into a corner where we are seen to be obstructing projects needed for security and economic progress of India.

Also, if there are facts and logic to discuss, then posts should contain facts and logic. not just threats against other postors.

If the aim is simply to post propaganda, that can be done by "pinning" a Petition.

It is of course up to the Admins to decide what is good for IF.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I didn't see you saying that to the postors who threatened me and "narayanan" with the following:
1. Sending allegations to "our" government(s).
2. "Drop Dead!"
3. "Get lost!"
4. "Get off this thread!"

etc. etc.

Wonder how the fellow knew what government that is? Are the admins sharing my IP info with postors who threaten violence?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Is this guy for real? No way...

Calm down, Paranoia Boy.

(1) First of all: Neelan (that's you) was the only one of whom I wrote that I might have to tell his government about his inside knowledge of the hatemail process which he's been harassing everyone with (we don't care to know about the means criminals employ, keep that to yourself is what I was telling you).

How'd you figure I know or care where you live? I spoke of 'your government' - from that you assume that I have become omniscient and know <i>which</i> government that is. Wow, I must be better than I thought <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Hey genius, everybody lives in <i>a</i> country and therefore has <i>a</i> government.

Besides, I didn't write that statement to <i>both</i> of you, so why do you feel Narayanan was also addressed with that post? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

(2) Hey, why haven't you written in your list (reproduced top of this post) that I also told Narayanan he'll be going "crying back to his teddybear"? Next you'll say: how did I <i>know</i> Narayanan has a teddybear. Yeah, I <i>know</i>. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo--> Get a grip.


You're looking more and more unstable. I might have to stop writing to you, I'm afraid you might lose it altogether and then I'd have to start feeling guilty.

Here's a piece of advice: easy with the paranoia, kid. It can't be good for ya.
You remind me of the main character in this immortal verse that the x-term once threw up:
<i>Today as I went up the stairs
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
Oh how I wish he'd go away</i>
<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

It's all in your head dude. Let it go before you hurt yourself.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Are the admins sharing my IP info with postors who threaten violence?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Missed this the first time. Who's <i>threatening violence</i>? There's someone who's <i>lying</i>: yeah, that's you, btw (in case you have a hard time adding 1 + 1).
So, where's the violence? I'd really like to know.
Don't call up ghosts and scare yourself with them okay? No one here wants to handle kids who aren't potty-trained.

[Guest]

Neelan and Husky: Both your posts are gone as it's not relevant to topic. There, I'm being fair. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

If you want to discuss the Setu bridge/project, feel free to post - you all can fight over whatever using your personal emails or some other forum. Not here.

[Guest]

I am open to a debate, if it can be done with a defined structure. By structure, I mean, within defined objectives, scope, flow, and ground rules.

<i><b>Objective:</b></i> "The merits of this configuration of SSCP are worth damaging the Rama Setu"

<i><b>Scope:</b></i> Only the merits and demerits of the configuration is the scope. Everything else is irrelevant for this single discussion. (Such matter can also be debated in another one)

I announce to be 'against' the above statement, and am willing to debate. If there is someone 'for' this statement, and willing to debate, please announce yourselves as such.

Ground Rules:
1. No sarcasm. Only refer to what poster said and not to the poster. No abuses. No claims of victory or losing.
2. Anyone, including admins, can add value.
3. Discuss the merits/demerits, one-by-one, without mixing or intermingling with each other. One point shall be started. Don't move to another one until this single point has convincingly been resolved.
4. A poster, who gets abusive, angry, personal, posts irrelevant etc, will volunteerily disqualify him/herself from posting on this discussion.
5. Only one post per 3 hours per poster. To maintain the sanity.
6. (I wish we were living in a different age, as described by beautiful stories from Goraksha-vijayam, Shankara-vijayam etc, where debatees were so honest as to accept the defeat and take the winner to be one's Guru) However we live in a different era, where 'ego' hinders even free admission of truth, and it would be natural to expect that none would be willing to concede a point even if proven otherwise. So, we need to have a 'conflict -resolution' mechanism. Like any academic debate, we have to have a panel of people, who themselves dont participate in the debate, but in good faith, can moderate the debate and resolve any conflicts. Their decision on a conflict will be agreed by both parties. Both parties can nominate a person each from their side.
7. Nominated <i>panch</i>es have to be -
- from the 'senior members' group,
- is willing to moderate,
- has never posted on these or related threads,
- is known to have no locus standi whatsoever on the issue,
- is free from all conflicts,
- will not debate him/herself, and remain neutral,
- will only monitor, but not interrupt or give opinion, unless invited to
8. <i>Panch</i>es should offline discuss amongst themselves, come to a unanimous conclusion, and then give us their resolutions. Their resolution will be final and to be accepted.
9. Admins can still 'time out' a particular discussion, if it violates the general forum rules.

All the above rules are open for the discussion too. Let me know if there are any takers. If someone has any suggestion to modify/add/delete some of the above, please bring it up and it can be discussed.

Also those members who are not willing to post, but would like to see the debate, are welcome to send opinions.

In hope of a fair and intellectual dialogue.

Truth alone is victorious. Satyameva Jayate (Atharva Veda).

[Guest]

Link to previous version of this thread here.

and all please note a comment by Kaushal as we go forward.

Bodhi, good idea to suggest a structure to debate so that passion/emotions/outbursts are kept out. As I see it from a 30K foot view, there's several aspects to this issue: <b>(i) Sprituality/Religious sentiments (ii) Economic benefits (iii) Strategic Security concerns (iv) Archealogy/antiquity (v) History and (vii) Marine/environmental concerns lastly (vii) current political dynamics in India</b>.
(others can add more as necessary)

If debate can be structured to address each of these different issues in its own, it'll help. From what I've seen so far it's a hodge-podge flinging of issues in the thread and mixing/matching facts to make the case.

I suggest, both sides lay out the facts and let readers make up their own mind. For sure (unfortunately) IF can't dictate/alter the project status with this debate, at best we could end up with some kind of paper that'll detail pros-cons of the project.

[Guest]

Thanks for seconding Viren. Let us look forward to other suggestions.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Link to previous version of this thread here.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thanks for raising the dead.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->pros-cons of the project.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vinenji, not pros and cons of the <b>project</b>. Scope here is limited to pros and cons of <b><i>THIS</i> configuration</b>. Both are two different things entirely. No one here is opposed to the project. None on this thread or forum at least.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Ram Mandir Banaayenge !" "Ram Setu Bachaayenge !!"
4/19/2007 5:28:57 AM 
Special Correspondent.
(With inputs from VSK Chennai)

HINDUS SERVE AN ULTIMATUM
RAMESWARAM, APRIL 18, 2007

"Ram Mandir…? Banaayenge !"  "Ram Setu …? Bachaayenge !!" That was the slogan which reverberated at the land's end this afternoon. In the middle of the holiest pilgrim centre of Rameswaram, Shri. Ashok Singhal, International President of Vishwa Hindu Parishad, led the slogan and a huge assembly of a couple of thousands  demonstrators – 60 percent of them women – followed the chant, waving saffron flags. They had assembled there in response to the call of 'Rameswaram Ram Setu Protection Movement'.

Shri. Singhal elctrified the atmosphere by declaring an ultimatum: In his special address to the demonstrators – in fact, to the whole of Bharat – he roared: "The Central government should leave Ram Setu untouched and come forward with an alternative alignment for the Sethusamudram Shipping Canal before May 13, 2007. If it fails to do so, a very big struggle will follow. On that day, Mahamandaleswars and heads of Akhadas will meet in Delhi to chalk out the further step. I have consulted them all in this regard. Members of Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha must come out in support of this mighty struggle to protect Hind interests".

Shri. Singhal asserted that Shri Hanuman himself protects Ram Janmasthan as proved by the fact that of the 19 bombs hurled by anti nationals on Ram Janmabhoomi, only one exploded, that too just destroyed the hand of the terrorist involved. He quizzed: " So also, Ram Setu too is protected by Hanumanji. Otherwise, how does one explain dredgers, cranes and ships approaching Ram Setu break down one by one? (Latest: The engineer of a Russian ship working for Sethusamudram Project broke his hand and has been since hospitalized in Madurai. His condition is kept as a guarded secrect!). But Shri. Singhal was prompt in reminding the people that they will have to convey their anger to the Hon'ble President of Bharat and the Prime Minister through telegrams and letters (Midway during his speech, he asked those in the meeting who would write letters the very next day to raise their hands. All hands went up!)

He explained: "Ram Setu is the sole surviving solid proof that Shri. Ram lived in this land, that he came to Rameswaram and constructed the Setu. Western powers want to destroy the Setu just because of this. Their historians want to hide the fact from the people that Shri. Ram took birth thousands of years before Jesus Christ, as that would demolish their theory that Bharat did never have a long and glorious hisotry. It is not a coincidence that Sonia participated in the inuaguration of the Sethusamudram Project in its present form that seeks to destroy the Ram Setu and Ambika Soni declares that there is no Ram Setu at all". ("It is due to the pressure from USA which made Sonia to inaugurate the Project to make the Palk Strait as international waters to help the American government." Shri Singhal had told presspersons in Chennai on April 17).

The British taught us distorted history and never recognised Lord Ram as a historical figure and those who want to destroy the bridge are those against Shri. Ram, he said. Any desha bhakta will be angry for this, he concluded. The work on the Project be suspended immediately. VHP and the religious leaders are not against the Project per se;

Earlier in his address, Shri. Singhal reiterated quite a few aspects of Ram Setu protection, brought to the notice of people and the government in several hundreds of similar protest demonstrations from Punjab to Kerala through UP and Andhra – and, of course, in every district place of Tamilnadu all along past months.

· 'If Ram Setu is demolished then it would destroy thorium, the fuel source for nuclear energy generation, large deposits running into tens of thousands of tons of which are found in the place. It can supply energy fotr the whole country for more than 100 years; it has to be saved for making Bharat a self-reliant nuclear power and as it is one of our top national imperatives.

·In addition to the NASA images, our own scientific evidences point to human activity in ancient times on both sides of Ram Setu as found by Dept. of Earth Sciences and ocean technologists of Bharat.

·The work on the project be suspended immediately. VHP the religious leaders are not against the Project per se; they were opposed to the present alignment that involved damaging the Ram Setu. There were five alternatives and the VHP and the Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha wanted the Government to choose one of them.

The Rameswaram demonstration was held in the presence of Shri. R.V.S.Marimuthu ji  (Sanghchalak of Tamilnadu), RSS.

Blessing the people fighting for the protection of Ram Setu, Mahamandaleswar Swami Vishveshananda of Hardwar, sent out a warning that the family of anyone who destroys Ram Setu will face disaster. 

In Rama Janmabhoomi movement, Hindus were pitted against Muslim intransigence; but in saving Ram Setu, all fishermen – Muslims, Christians and Hindus - have come together, the Swami pointed out (It may be remembered that 140 associations of Rameswaram had joined the Ram Setu protection Movement).

Swami Paramatmananda of Rajkot Swami Paramatmananda, Secretary, Acharya Sabha made it clear that destruction of Ram Setu does not merely indicate economic or political loss. It means a cultural, religious destruction, he said. He called upon people to hit the streets as the government has become deaf to the demands of Hindus. Raise your voice if you want to be heard, he appealed.

He exposed the Shipping Minister T.R.Balu's trickery in not giving an explanation to the Hindu leaders even after the lapse of three weeks after Prime Minister's directive to that effect. The PM had asked Balu to respond to the delegation of religious leaders when they had met him in Delhi to demand protection of Ram Setu.

Highlighting the sentiments of the Hindu mind, Swami Abhimukhananda of Dwaraka said the Ram Setu is like the maang (the partitng of hair above the forehead) of Bharat Mata and destroying it would amount to making the Mother look like a widow. Shri. Ram appealed to Samudra Raja to no avail; only when Ram tried to take out his bow and arrow, work on the Setu could begin; like that, Hindu appeals have fallen on deaf ears. Struggle seems to be the only way, the Swami said.

Swami Sahaja Chaitanya spoke, also participated in the demonstration. Shri. Rama. Gopalan, founder, Hindu Munnani, pionted out that people should be ready to lay down even their lives in order to bring the powers that be, to their knees and thus save Ram Setu. He cited the Nandigram experience as precedence to this; there, the Marxist government backtracked from land acquisition only after people laid down their lives to realize their demand, he reminded.

Shri. S. Vedantam, international vice president of VHP, wanted the questionable background of Minister T.R.Baalu be brought to focus. He recalled how Balu had declared that he was ashamed of calling himself a Hindu – that too at a convention of Christians some months back. (The Minster has proved last week that he can be  repeatedly wayward: "There is no man made structure in the area where Sethusamudram Ship Channel Project (SSCP) works are going on", said T R Baalu in Ramanathapuram on April 16 while speaking to reporters. There is no need for any change in the alignment of the project, he added). So, battle lines were drwan unmistakeably.

In his address, Shri R.S. Narayanaswami, journalist and vice president of VHP, Tamilnadu, traced history of the failure of the Canal Project for over a century.

Dr. Subramaniam Swamy of Janata Party referred to the ancientness of monuments. He said structures like Taj Mahal in Agra and Kutub Minar in Delhi were saved from the threat of damage and destruction from the modern development oriented initiatives due to public and judicial intervention. While the above two date back only to a few hundred years, the Ram Setu's historical antiquity goes back to several millennia, he compared.

Shri. L. Ganesan, state BJP president, alleged that the persistence with the unwise alignment of Sethusamudram Canal is aimed at perpetuating vote bank and corruption (which he described as 'note bank'). He said nobody has the authority to question belief systems like the honouring of a 'hair of Mohamed Nabi' in the Hazratbal mosque. Likewise, nobody can question the belief of Hindus – now scientifically proved – that Ram Setu was built by Shri Ram and so it is worship worthy.

Shri. Kuppuramu, advocate and Ramanathapuram Jilla Sanghchalak, RSS, presided over the demonstration. He is also the convenor of 'RAMESWARAM RAMAR PAALAM PROTECTION MOVEMENT', Chennai. The Movement's website is being constantly updated with developments regarding protection of Ram Setu. Please visit the site at – www.saveramasetu. blogspot. com

As Shri Ashok Singhal hinted, the Movemnet seems all set to spread far and wide across the whole country soon, thanks to the the UPA apparatus out to antagonize Hindus in an unimaginative manner. The rulers are bound to encounter an organised bitter resistence of Hindus this time.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

While the debate structure posted by Bodhi appears reasonable at first sight, it must be viewed in the context of the situation on this thread.

Several posts have been edited/deleted in a selective manner by the Admins. Thanks very much. What REMAINS as ADMIN posts includes: (see above):

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> I think first fix Paki, commie, SIMI, and Chini border, those who are already inside and causing problem. Why worry about those who are outside?
Read Ramayana and your vagueness will disappear. Your scare tactics are similar to commies who scream, they are coming, they are coming…..<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Given this as the reality of the "ground rules of debate" there is little to be gained by posting anything in support of any view that is not 400% in line with the superstitions and political propaganda.

What was deleted, incidentally, included a clear rebuttal to the above - why the situation is NOT

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> The Commies are Coming<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

But

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> The Commies Were the Ones Who Gain From Blocking This Project, and they HAVE been sitting there obstructing for decadess. Now that they have lost hope of actually obstructing it, they have switched tactics and brought in Religious Sentiment, which apparently the Holy Hindu Netas did not have in the last 1,750,0000,000,000,0000 years since Shri Raman went this way, but have SUDDENLY discovered.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It takes no smarts to see the history that was posted above (aha! I still have it, because I knew the Fair Admins would censor that on some pretext)

The Project was discussed VERY OPENLY.

The Present Configuration was approved based on all the inputs received IN TIME.

The PMO posed very pointed questions to the SSC project office, and the questions and answers are published on the project site.

Between 1999 and 2004, when the NDA was in power, the TN government, the Andhra govt all pressed the Central Govt to GO AHEAD with the project. All were in the COALITION in the Center.

The project was pushed ahead BY THE PRIME MINISTER. THROUGH THE DEFENCE MINISTER (i.e., Shri Vajpayee and Shri Fernandes).

It was supported by the TN CM (Jayalalitha) AS WELL AS by Karunanidhi.

THEN, and only THEN, was the project given the green light to proceed. The time to debate CONFIGURATION etc. was BEFORE this occurred.

Based on that, it is perfectly clear that the present agitation is pure political propaganda with no honest science, national interests or religious sentiments behind it. Those conducting it are a very small section of the Hindus who believe that Shri Raman and His Army built the causeway OVER the rocky ridge to provide the logistics support for the army going into Sri Lanka.

Of course this post will also disappear. It does not agree with the POLITICAL MACHINATIONS of certain entities.

Once again, let me emphasize. The time to discuss the CONFIGURATION was BEFORE that was decided. In the decades when that was discussed.

Anyone who suggests an alternative configuration at this point MUST provide clear arguments for that configuration, and why it now overcomes all the points raised AGAINST it in past years, and provide the cost estimate of changing the project at this very very very late stage.

Anything else is sheer obstruction of Indian security, the economic prospects of the poor people there, and ... perhaps most importantly for those on this Forum:

It is going to <b>cause </b>another disastrous setback for the credibility of those who argue that Hindu Heritage must be revived and enhanced.


Now do come back with all those arguments like

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think first fix Paki, commie, SIMI, and Chini border, those who are already inside and causing problem. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Which is what passes for "relevant comment on the project" by the Admin criteria seen here.


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[acharya]

<img src='http://www.saindia.com/ezimagecatalogue/catalogue/variations/23431-400x500.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Guest]

In short, debate is not possible because admins are biased? Or is this being asserted that the free and fair debate is not at all possible at this forum?

Bias is very human, and one may suggest ways to eliminate it, and I have suggested how.

Once the debate begins, admins will be requested to not interfere nor decide about relevance etc.. Such decision will be taken by the referee panel, the neutral composition of which, I have also suggested, to keep it free from any bias.

If commentator is only interested in stunts and not in a refereed academic debate, then that is a different matter.

[Guest]

From Post 59. Thanks to k.ram :

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Shri Hanuman himself protects Ram Janmasthan as proved by the fact that of the 19 bombs hurled by anti nationals on Ram Janmabhoomi, only one exploded, that too just destroyed the hand of the terrorist involved. He quizzed: " So also, Ram Setu too is protected by Hanumanji. Otherwise, how does one explain dredgers, cranes and ships approaching Ram Setu break down one by one? (Latest: The engineer of a Russian ship working for Sethusamudram Project broke his hand and has been since hospitalized in Madurai. His condition is kept as a guarded secrect!). But Shri. Singhal was prompt in reminding the people that they will have to convey their anger to the Hon'ble President of Bharat and the Prime Minister through telegrams and letters (Midway during his speech, he asked those in the meeting who would write letters the very next day to raise their hands. All hands went up!)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Public meetings are being organized at town level across Tamil Nadu, and rest of India by VHP.

One gathering:

<img src='http://bp2.blogger.com/__w6ro3RGBt4/RijjGXYDCLI/AAAAAAAAABE/8_aRNUrMcZk/s1600-h.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Guest]

<span style='color:red'>Is it a conspiracy to destroy Hindu heritage?</span>

Dinanath Mishra

In India we have been callous towards our heritage and legacy. Destruction of setubandh has already started. International companies have been engaged. One should not be surprised if Ram setu is totally destroyed

What is Setu-Samudram project? The project envisages a path for ships between India and Sri Lanka by creating two sea-canals. Total length of the canal would be about 89 km. The cost of the project is Rs 24 billion. It would be managed by Setu-Samudram Corporation. Twenty per cent of the aid would come from the Centre.

Some contribution would come from four Tamil Port Trusts. The implementing authority would be the Tuticorin Port Trust. Public issue of Rs 3 billion would be managed by UTI Bank. Central Government would guarantee all loans raised by the Corporation. Navigational financial benefits are the moving force behind it. Increasing foreign trade, Indian ambition, as well as Tamil Nadu's development are cited as reasons for the project. Additional reasons being strategic needs.

There are objections to the project from Kerala as it saved Kerala from big apprehended loss of human life due to Tsunami, for the setubandh mellowed the Tsunami thrust. Environmental issues are also involved. The fishing community fears drop in their income. The biggest factor, which would play its own role, is that Setu-Samudram would destruct Ram setu, the invaluable human heritage. That apart, sentimental attachment of Hindus with Ram setu is also very relevant and they too are raising their voice against its destruction. This ambitious project is hanging in the balance for over a century. The NDA Government had also cleared it but the plan remained untouched. But when Manmohan Singh launched this project, it had under gone changes, which included destruction of Setu-Samudram.

The destruction of setubandh Rameshwaram is being carried out by foreign contractors. The Ramayana depicts this bandh vividly. It is a great center of Hindu pilgrimage since it was constructed by Shri Ram. Hindus are agitated over its ongoing destruction.

Setubandh might have been dismissed as mythology. But a few years back NASA based report released by PTI stated, "The NASA Shuttle has imaged a mysterious bridge between India and Sri Lanka, as mentioned in the Ramayana. The evidence, say experts matter of fact, is in the Digital Image Collection. The recently discovered bridge, currently named as Adam's Bridge and made of a chain of shoals, 30 km long, in the Palk Straits between India and Sri Lanka, reveals mystery behind it. The Bridge's unique curvature and composition reveals that it is man-made. Legend as well as Archeological studies reveal that the first signs of human inhabitants in Sri Lanka date back to about 1,750,000 years ago and the bridge's age is also almost equivalent."

However, the fact is that Hindu cosmogony contains descriptions of jal plavan or pralaya followed by total destruction. A small number of survivors had to perform the task of recreation unto them. The tectonic movements of plates also changed geography of the earth and impacted the history of human civilisation. After the great revelation of NASA, the Setubandh Rameshwaram has to be preserved as one of the greatest human heritage. The UN bodies care for such heritage. There are a number of international laws to preserve it. In Australia, the aboriginals as per their faith believe in some mountains to be as sacred as god. The Australian Government had to recognise their faith in mountain gods and the construction of national high way passing over these mountains was shifted.

Even before NASA's discovery, the existence of the setubandh was known. But NASA's revelations enthralled Indian heart and soul with a sense of pride in its history and civilisational development, including science, technology and architecture of ancient India. Had such discovery been related to any developed country, it would have opened floodgates of research. As per Hindu cosmogony it was during treta yug when the Ram setu was constructed. NASA has assessed the time frame as 17,50,000 years old.

In India we have been callous towards our heritage and legacy. The destruction of setubandh has already started. International companies have been engaged. One should not be surprised if Ram setu is totally destroyed in the name of building Tuticorin sea-port and a sea-canal between the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal. There can be ways to save the setubandh as well as go ahead with the development.

But who cares for preservation of Hindu - heritage and sensitivities. About a month back, a person called Krishna Swarup Pandey came to me and showed me some documents. I was amazed, as the way the Government did every thing in a hurry. After Shankaracharyas and other saints started speaking on it, 140 Tamil Nadu organisations launched an agitation to save it. They are now approaching the Supreme Court with a PIL to save this great Indian heritage.

[Guest]

<span style='color:red'>A jolt for Sethu project</span>
Sunday April 22 2007 11:47 IST

CHENNAI: Looks like the problems at the Sethusamudhram Ship Channel Project (SSCP) are far from over.

Now, rumours on Saturday said that another dredger got damaged affecting dredging operations at the Adam’s Bridge area.

However, senior officials denied them. After the damage of a spud of the Cutter- Sucker-Dredger Aquarius while at work and also the sinking of a part of a giant crane in the sea, fresh rumours also started doing the rounds that a dredger was damaged.

However, highly-placed sources in the Sethusamudram Corporation Limited told this website's newspaper that there were intermittent stoppage of dredging because of bad weather at the Adam’s Bridge area.

Sources said, “The cutter- sucker-dredger, which is at work in the Adam’s Bridge, is susceptible to weather conditions. In the past few days, there had been spells of rains."

The dredger was supposed to do the job only from mid-October to mid- May, to avoid the monsoon.

“This time, the showers started a little early. So depending on the weather, the work is being carried out now. The break of a few hours from dredging by the dredger does not mean it is stopped or damaged,” the sources clarified.

However, the dredger will stop its operations from mid-May to October.

There are four more dredgers (trailer-sucker dredger), which are weather resistant and are still operational.

Meanwhile, there were rumours that a broken dredger was being brought to the Chennai Port for repair.

Again, the sources at the Sethusamudram Corporation Limited confirmed that it was routine to bring down the dredgers to the Chennai Port for refuelling.

Instead, the officials claimed that they were trying to hurry up to complete the work.

http://newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE...hennai&Topic=0&

[Guest]

Related to the above news.

One shouldn't be surprised if they can not dredge the Setu using these conventional dredgers leased from Swedish and Dutch companies. Setu's base is so hard (N Value > 30) - see my earlier post about this - that normal dredging may not succeed at all. Both NIOT and GSI had warned about this.

If someone be interested in facts and details, here is the blueprint of the present channel configuration, prepared by L&T Ramboll between 2004 and 2005. Notice the circle over the Rama Setu area - this has been zoomed in and details are shown in 'X'.

<img src='http://www.archive.org/download/SSCP_Vibro_Coring_Locations/MapofNIOTVibroCores.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Do notice the zoom area marked as "DETAIL - X", which shows the four bore hole test locations that were done to ascertain how to dredge the Setu area. (Minister is lying when he says NIOT did these boreholes to assess whether there is a man-made structure. The Testing was done purely to ascertain how to dredge this. No speculation needed, one may just read the NIOT report. Here is the link to Bore Log data from L&T.

So, anyways, the hardness recorded on all the 4 boreholes in the area are fairly high (N > 30) which means the rocks are absolutely hard.

This is why D.N.Seshagiri, (Former) Director of Geological Survey of India wrote in his assessment, that:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Attention is drawn not only to the zones wherein rock has been encountered but also to those that have recorded high N values.

An empirical relationship between N value and uncon. Comp strength (ton/ft2) has been established.

N value Uncon. Comp. Strength (T/ft2) Consistency
8-15 1.0-2.0 Stiff
15-30 2.0-4.0 Very Stiff
Over 30 Over 4.0 Hard

(Ref. Soil Mechanics and Foundations. J.V.Parcher & R.E.Means. Printice-Hall of India 1974)

This has been corroborated by the Earth Manual (U.S. Dept. of Interior. Water & Power resource service. II Edn.) as follows:

Blows per foot Consistency
Below 2 Very soft
2 to 4 Soft
4 to 8 Medium
8 to 15 Firm
15 to 30 Very firm
Above 30 Hard

In view of the above, the amenability to conventional dredging of not only the rocky strata but also of the softer sediments with high N value is a suspect.

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Other methods of removal have to be resorted to.</span>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Which are those "other methods"? The most common and "convenient" one, is to use explosives, and with repeated shock explosions, to blow up the hard strata.

So what next? Let us watch as Baalu collabrates with Talibans and bring their expertise on how they blew up Bamiyan Buddhas, and blow up the Setu. (Afzal Guru is still alive - use his expertise)

[Guest]

<span style='color:red'>A foot soldier's sacred padayatra </span>
V SUNDARAM

'The strongest, most generous and proudest of all virtues is true courage', wrote the great French Essayist Michael de Montaigne (1533-1592) in the 16th century. These timeless words of Montaigne came to my mind when I had the pleasure and privilege of meeting an extraordinary Soldier of the Indian Army called Colonel S S Rajan two days ago at his residence in Bangalore.

It is difficult to isolate Colonel Rajan's resplendent courage as an element for journalistic analysis without carefully considering the catalysts and motivations that have inspired him to dare and do many impossible deeds even in the face of mortal danger, both in the days when he was in active army service and even more so after his retirement in 1996. Lord Moran in his book Anatomy of Courage says: 'I contend that fortitude in war has its roots in morality; that selection is a search for character and that war itself is but one more test- the supreme and final test if you will- of character. Courage can be judged apart from danger only if the social significance and meaning of courage is known to us, namely that a man of character in peace becomes the man of courage in war. He cannot be selfish in peace and yet be unselfish in war. Character, as Aristotle taught, is a habit, the daily choice of right instead of wrong; it is a moral quality which grows to maturity in peace, and is not suddenly developed on the out break of war.....Man's fate in battle is worked out before the war begins. For his acts in war are dictated not by courage or by fear, but by CONSCIENCE, of which war is the final test.....Courage, therefore also has social significance because it is desirable that it forms part of the national character. It forms the cement that bonds together the ingredients of national unity which has been our country's strength in times of war. In a democratic set-up men will fight because they are aware that they have a stake in the system, and that the system needs to be protected to ensure the future of the community.'

Sanjay Shirodkar

I went to Bangalore to meet Col S S Rajan because I was greatly inspired by the story of his splendid personal example of trying to pay homage to Adi Shankara, by walking on his hallowed foot steps, as part of his humble mission of initiating a process of spiritual renaissance for infusing a spirit of oneness in the country by spreading the message of universality of all faiths. Col S S Rajan recalled with great emotion and fervour the date: 23 June, 1989. On that day, he was travelling by car from Bareilly to Lucknow. On that very day, he also happened to read the life of Adi Shankara. That fateful moment totally transformed his inner spiritual universe. In the inner screen of his mind, he saw clearly how Adi Shankara had traversed the length and breadth of India from Kanyakumari to Kashmir in a breathless manner in his very short life of 32 years and created a new Hindu Renaissance in the 8th Century. This simple fact struck Col Rajan anew like a lightning on that fateful day. He was greatly moved by the whirl wind Padayatra undertaken by Adi Shankara, touching all parts of India, leaving an imperishable imprint everywhere in India. Col. Rajan said to himself: 'I feel a strange disconnection with the land. Are not many of our ills today due to the fact that modern means of transportation have divided the society and its people into several unconnected layers? Should I not play my small part as an unknown soldier in bringing about a new national awakening?' His mind, heart and soul became aflame with a new fire and aglow with a new light. On that fateful day Col Rajan's life's mission was settled. He firmly resolved that he would walk the length and breadth of India and preach the message of underlying spiritual unity amidst diversity.

Col S S Rajan
After he retired from Army Service in 1996, Col Rajan was determined to give a concrete shape to his mission and ideal of walking across the length and breadth of India, following the foot steps of Adi Shankara to drive home to our people that we all belong to India and our motherland and our divine Mother is Bharath Matha. With great commitment, humility and reverence, he wanted to cover a distance of 16000 kms which Adi Shankara had traversed through walking, in a phased manner spread over a period of about 8 years. With this lofty and patriotic objective in mind, Col. Rajan began the I phase of his massive Padayatra from Bangalore to Thirupathi on the historic day of our Independence on 15 August, 2000. This great walking mission of Col Rajan was flagged off in Bangalore by another great son of Bharath Matha, Justice M Rama Jois, the then Governor of Jhargand. Flagging off the Padayatra of Col. Rajan, Justice Rama Jois said: 'Your decision to walk and travel throughout our sacred motherland Bharath, has been inspired by the Vijaya Yatra of Adi Shankara, the greatest Philosopher and unifier of this ancient nation and one who resurrected Dharma. Your walking mission is indeed historic as well as courageous. Not only you will be spreading the message of Advita of Adi Shankara that the whole universe in one, and the God worshipped by any name, destination is the same, but also the message of universal love and peace.'
In the I phase, on 15 August 2000, Col Rajan started walking from Bangalore to Thirupathi, reaching Thirupathi on 28 August 2000. He sought the blessings of Lord Venkateshwara for completing the massive task which he had taken upon himself, the sacred mission of walking across the length and breadth of India by following the foot steps of Adi Shankara.

The II phase of Col Rajan's Padayatra began on 28 November 2001 and ended in New Delhi on 24 January 2002 (60 days). Col. Rajan first walked from Bangalore to Mantralaya and from there he went to Hyderabad. From Hyderabad he went to New Delhi via Nagpur, Jhansi, Gwalior, Agra and Mathura.

The III phase of Col. Rajan's Padayatra is going to start from Chennai to Rameshwaram on the 20 May 2007. He is going to be accompanied by Sanjay Ramesh Shirodkar on this Padayatra for saving Rameshwaram and Rama Sethu. I met Shirodkar in Bangalore. He is a young man burning with love and patriotism for our great motherland and Bharath Matha. His hero is Veer Savarkar (1883-1966) that incomparable patriot. After graduating from Bombay University in 1992, he has been actively involved in the National Hindutva Awakening Movement. He has also taken a diploma in Dramatics from Natyaprabodhini, Pune. He has acted in 2-3 Marathi dramas for ETV Marathi. His theatrical skills are helping him to spread the timeless message of Sanathana Dharma. He is currently associated with Bajarang Dal as IT (Information Technology) Sanchalak in Bangalore Mahanagar. Overtopping all this, Shirodkar is a fearless RTI (Right to Information) Activist in Bangalore.

I asked Shirodkar as to why he is joining the Padayatra of Col Rajan from Chennai to Rameshwaram on 20 May 2007. Shirodkar replied : 'Islam- embracing, Christianiy- coveting and Hindu- hating minority UPA Government in New Delhi is hell bent on destroying the ancient Rama Sethu Bridge in Rameshwaram as a contrived part of Sethu Samudram Canal Project (SSCP).A Non-Hindu like Sonia Gandhi and an Anti- Hindu like Karunanidhi have entered into an unholy alliance to destroy Rama Sethu Bridge in order to culturally and spiritually destroy the Hindu Heritage of India which has withstood the onslaught of centuries'. 'Rama Sethu, according to our immemorial tradition was a causway built by Lord Rama. Rama Sethu has an instant appeal to the Hindu imagination. It inspires our thoughts, feelings and emotions. Did not Swami Vivekananda say that ' true human feelings, passions and emotions are indeed the gastric juices of the soul?' Col Rajan and I are going on a Padayatra to save Rameshwaram and Rama Sethu. We have no doubt that thousands of Hindus who want to protect Rameshwaram and Rama Sethu will join us on our Padayatra with tremendous energy and enthusiasm.' Meeting Shirodkar at Bangalore was indeed an exhilarating experience.

Col Rajan's father Major M D Sambasivam was also a proud infantry soldier who served in the Garhwal Rifles. Col Rajan is the worthy son of a worthy father. Any one who meets Col Rajan can see the singular degree of integrity and harmony which have pervaded his life. I was infactuated by his undaunted and ever-flowing combetitive energy. His power of cold endurance has been the equal of his energy all the time. No wonder that as a Major when he comanded an Engineer Construction Company in the Jessore- Khulna Sector during the war for liberation for Bangladesh in December 1971, he remained unshaken even after being blasted by an anti-tank mine. Duty, public and private, faithfully, strictly, untiringly, unostentatiously, and successfully performed and a calm, proud humility? these are the characteristics which will forever illumine the fame of Col S S Rajan.

Col S S Rajan and Sanjay Shirodkar will be participating in the National Seminar in Chennai organised by Rameswaram Rama SETU PROTECTION MOVEMENT on 12 May, 2007. Prof Nalapat, Prof Tad S Murthy and many other experts are expected to participate in this Seminar. Eminent Geologists, Ocean Scientists, Administrators, Marine Engineers, Environmental Engineers and experts from associated fields would be analyzing thread bare the disastrous environmental, economic, geo physical, cultural and spiritual impact of the Sethu Samudram Canal Project (SSCP).

(The writer is a retired IAS officer)

e-mail the writer at vsundaram@newstodaynet.com

http://newstodaynet.com/2007sud/apr07/230407.htm

[Guest]

Received in e-mail:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Sanatana Dharma Foundation Dallas presents an exclusive Radio program on Ram Setu Bridge on <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>April 28</span>, 2007, 7 to 9 AM on <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>104.9 FM</span>.  The program is structured with discussion among the following experts.

<span style='color:red'>"Protecting the Bridge that Lord Rama Built" - 8.00 - 8.45 AM</span>

- Dr.S.P.Gupta, Seceratary General, Indian Archaeological Soceity
- Sri.KT.Thomas, Retd.Supreme Court Justice
- Dr.S.Kalyanaraman, Research Director, Saraswathi River Project
- Swami Paramatmananda Saraswathi, Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha

Listeners outside Dallas, USA can listen live via the web at http://www.radiosalaamnamaste.com/live.html or at any time later by
visiting the Audio Archives Section of http://www.sanatanadharmafoundation.com/
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->