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What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2
Petraglia has presented significant evidence for pre-toba migration into IOR and onwards to Aus. Known 60-65K first occupation of Australia also puts limits on pushing OOA exodus much later than 70K. And the Liuijang skull (70K) in S. China further places limits on how late the OOA date can be pushed. Basically, OOA clan will need to be explorer-missionaries with a 'China/Aus or bust' directive guiding them if OOA is to be dated post-toba. A suitably late OOA date of 60K is preferred and promoted by Eurocentrics to minimize the implications of the known delay in European settlement, where Neanderthal retreat in response to AMH intrusion can be reliably demonstrated; Asiatic Erectus presented no such competition to AMH in Asia.
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<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Nov 6 2009, 08:07 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Nov 6 2009, 08:07 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The map shows that this so called Aryan homeland, very nearly touches Swat and very nearly over-laps with Indus valley civilization
[right][snapback]102405[/snapback][/right]
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Andronovo area is known lebensraum for Iranian Saka/Haumavarga. These originated from Iran proper, just as Banjaras from India. Actually, the proper nomadic lifestyle is displayed by only Indic Banjaras and Iranian Saka, as well as Turkic/Uralic groups. The Ruskis, Vikings, E Euros, etc were never known for this lifestyle.
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How the Y-haplogroups enter in Europe?

N-came from 2 sources:from siberian taiga-forest siberians which spread in Scandinavia,Estonia,north Russia 8000 years ago and second from millet cultivators(originated in China)5000 years ago,10% N in Ukraine.

R-acording to above, from Gujarat area via Afganistan and Fergana(were the blue eyes may actually originate) to the so call ukrainian refuge(which include also central asia,the maps show only european part of ukrainian refuge)12000 years ago.

R1b-from Kazahstan

I-local development in Balkan 25000 years ago,from where spread especially in Scandinavia and Ukraine.

J-apparently from Middle east,via Turkey, whit the spread of farming;also corelated whit the famous clay figurines and pottery, 8000years ago.

E-from Levant ,also whit the spread of farming, see map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...Cardial_map.png

From this we observe that ,except I ,all other are post-Gravettian less then 20000 years ago.
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translated from russian.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Asmat headhunter  Re: Underhill et al. Re: Underhill et al. 2009 2009
« Reply #25 : 05 Ноября 2009, 22:50:32 » «Reply # 25 on: 05 November 2009, 22:50:32"
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Карта экспансии забавная. Map expansion amusing. Получается, что после выхода из Африки был выход из Индии. It turns out that after leaving Africa was out of India. <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

after two more pages, thread was:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Postponed: Re: Underhill et al. 2009 2009
« : Сегодня в 11:29:28 » ": Today at 11:29:28"
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Тема перенесена в Беседка . Moved to Arbor.

http://forum.
Записан Recorded
Впредь нужно ставить админами тех, для кого интересы гаплогруппы выше личных интересов (с) Паша From now admins need to put those for whom haplogroup interests above personal interests © Pasha <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->reality    
* Elite Member
* Posts: 2890
The R1a in Europe is too young to have initiated its "flow" into Asia and Indian sub-continent.
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parasar
* Member Rank 6
* Posts: 633

Exactly, <b>even a cursory look</b> at the Underhill paper's 10 marker R1a1a* haplotypes shows the high diversity in the subcontinent. Unfortunately, once a theory has been popularized, it takes multiple pieces of evidence to discount it. It will take some ancient-Dna evidence to finally bury it, I think.

As [] mentioned on his []: "the network topologies and associated Y-STR variance argue strongly against a simple Out-of-Eastern Europe scenario of the dispersal of R1a1, as non-star topologies with very high variance are found in India and Pakistan ...substantial subset of Indian R1a1 Y-chromosomes appeared to be distinctive from those of Europe ... there is something wrong in the equation of R1a1 "PIE-speaking Bronze Age horse riders from the Pontic-Caspian steppe". Clearly, the picture is more complex, and will only be resolved when new SNPs resolve the phylogeny of this widespread haplogroup."
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The theory is dead. Star typology means an explosive expansion in euro territory fallowed by the ice age. Non-star typology with extreme high variance means that limited room for expansion within the subcontinent had necessitated expansion elsewhere. This is now the mainstream view and is taken for granted.
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Clearly, the picture is more complex, and will only be resolved when new SNPs resolve the phylogeny of this widespread haplogroup."
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Joker needs to understand that the displacement issue has been resolved at the level of r1a1 and r1a1a (which had coincident expansions). Further resolution will only be local and will not impact this finding. There is a convergence of data showing r1b in Asia (E Persia, Zagros/Turkmen/S. Caspian), R1a1 in Afpak, and R2 in Bengal. r1a1 expansion was nothing less than a pressure cooker going off in Afpak.
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http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v54/n1/f...jhg20082t3.html

R1a variance
India 0.38
Central Asia 0.24
Europe and near East 0.31
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<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Nov 10 2009, 06:03 AM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Nov 10 2009, 06:03 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v54/n1/f...jhg20082t3.html

R1a variance
India 0.38
Central Asia 0.24
Europe and near East 0.31
[right][snapback]102467[/snapback][/right]
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A racist study for a racist world view.
Only white supremacists would fund this kind of study on a population when there are millions of other population groups which needs study worldwide,
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<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Nov 11 2009, 02:14 AM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Nov 11 2009, 02:14 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Nov 10 2009, 06:03 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Nov 10 2009, 06:03 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v54/n1/f...jhg20082t3.html

R1a variance
India 0.38
Central Asia 0.24
Europe and near East 0.31
[right][snapback]102467[/snapback][/right]
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A racist study for a racist world view.
Only white supremacists would fund this kind of study on a population when there are millions of other population groups which needs study worldwide,
[right][snapback]102469[/snapback][/right]
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is not a racist study
It shows that variance(aka diversity) is greater in India ,hence India is the origin of R1a.

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I made this map based on diversity of y-chromosome,which show the relative origin of each major haplotype.
<img src='http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2972/try2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />


AFRICA-A,B,E
MIDDLE EAST-,G,J,K,T
BALKAN-I
SOUTH ASIA-C,D,F,H,L,P,R(R1A,R2)
CENTRAL ASIA-P,R1B,Q
SOUTH-EAST ASIA-M,N,O,S
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pulled this image off a site, R1b localizing to zagros.

[img=http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9945/21183012.th.jpg]

all immediate branches of R are localizing to S. Asia; with R1b some may insist on greater S Asia, but nonetheless in the general area. Most of K rotates around interior Asia (SEA, S Asia) with only very rarified lineages venturing north.

One pattern that we see repeatedly is that certain basal lines (eg, R1a, R1b, K2-T) backmigrate into Africa and a rarified downstream lineage shows up in Europe from an alternate path. The Africa-S Asian axis appears to be primary, and Northern lineages as byproducts of this exchange.
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Dhu, Remember occassionally you were to post in simple terms what all this means for sake of the others?
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Ramana,

Oppenheimer titled a chapter 'two kinds of european'. This is a reference to a dual (mideast and indian) origin of every european line. The mideast ones tend to be earlier and correspond to the original settlement of europe (still delayed when compared to interior asia). The indian ones are even later (post-ice age). Ultimately, even the mideast contribution in Europeans is derived from S Asia, but since this event is so distant, it can be effectively ignored. Euros have very rarified lineages, very similar to beringia (and N Am) in its relation to rest of Asia. IOW, Beringia (and its sink N Am) has just a fraction of the diversity seen in Siberia and East Asia. Europe is very similar in its relation to rest of eurasia.
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Lucid comments like the following are surprisingly common (but the clarity predictably breaks down when dealing with indian culture).

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->parasar
Makes some sense. IMO, since northern Indians originate from southern India (this is disregarding recent back & forth) as well as east Asians originate from southern India, the latter two have greater connection. <b>Furthermore, as west Eurasians are a subset of Indians, </b>the north Indians are closer to west Eurasians (again this is disregarding recent back & forth).

I think both N & M mtDNA groups originated in southern India with the former spreading west and the latter spreading east. I am inclined to believe that N originated in south India after looking at U which is the oldest mtdna in Europe. I think it originated in Andhra or nearby. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I will post more of these....
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Aproximated ages for basic y-chromosomes in years before present(BP)
A-65000
B-63000
C-60000
D-60000
E-52000
F-45000
G-15000
H-31000
I-26000
J-26000
K-37000
L-27000
M-20000
N-17000
O-25000
P-34000
Q-17000
S-27000
T-26000
R-27000 --- R1A-17000
R1B-18000
R2-25000
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G15 kya
J26
K37
T26
The y-chromosomes that originate in Middle East range betwin 15000 to 37000years.
Indian ones from 15000 to 60000 years.Conclusion is that indian ones are older then middle-easterner ones.

Even the oldest middle-east chromosome K have a origin near Iran.Researchers point a posible origin in South Asia for K based on diversity of today K .However K origin is put on middle east from were its base was "pushed" more eastward.

Most of y-chromosomes seem off-shots from the rapid costal migration out of Africa.
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Is there a Jewish origins genetic link to Andhra? Is N found in Jews?
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<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Nov 13 2009, 11:46 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Nov 13 2009, 11:46 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Is there a Jewish origins genetic link to Andhra? Is N found in Jews?
[right][snapback]102523[/snapback][/right]
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nope ,nope
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Let me ask in a different way? Is the genome of Jewish people already mapped?
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<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Nov 14 2009, 08:18 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Nov 14 2009, 08:18 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me ask in a different way? Is the genome of Jewish people already mapped?
[right][snapback]102529[/snapback][/right]
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Yes

On the Y side, they mostly carry the J chromosome

They are mostly arabs

The Ashkenazi are a 50% - 50% split between arabs and greeks
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