01-20-2010, 02:39 PM
[quote name='dhu' date='20 January 2010 - 08:40 AM' timestamp='1263956534' post='103612']
It is possible that R1b started in C Asia, went o'er the 'ol Caspian, and then, blocked by the climactic ice, dipped back down into the caucasus and from there into asia minor and onwards to europe. Maybe a few trudged along hugging the northern coast of the Black Sea as well. Yeah I know about C Asia but I am talking realistically here (discounting all herrenvolk fantasies).
By the time that R1a expanded there was no ice block and it completely overwhelmed E Europe.
Later, the Hatti followed the transcaucasus route into Asia Minor, while the Mittani, Sindoi, Kassites, and the Greco-Persians took a more direct ME route, along with their greekoid slaves.
It is also possible that the inland seas do not present any effective challenges to migration.
[/quote]
R1b must have originated a little earlier than R1a, and moving along Caspian Sea north and then west appears plausible, but equally likely is that R1b moved west before the last ice age, so did not really have to move north of Caspian sea, just migrated west and populated wester and northen Europe, but later they were pushed back to ice age refuges in Iberia and Balkans.
And then populating entire Northen and Western Europe and part of Central Europe as well, which was very thinly populated at that time.
R1a probably closely behind R1b, ( and assuming it originated in south central asia ) diffused/radiated across , towards central India, north towards caspian sea, and west towards Iran ( only eastern part of Iran ) and perhaps east towards east central asia. Again all this just prior to the last ice age ( approximately 18k to 20 K years ). Once ice age started and peaked, again R1a was pushed to pockets/refuges around Caspian Sea, and of course parts of Iran and India.
Once Ice age retreated, the R1a near Caspian sea/ Iran area expanded to Eastern Europe, Large parts of Central Asia and perhaps a little bit to Northern India, ( though i am not fully convinced of large scale migration to India ). Post glacial, R1a expansion to Eastern Europe was easy, because again it was not populated much.
One difference between population of R1b across western Europe and R1a across Easter Europe was the former was mostly hunter gatherers and neolithic farmers, whereas the latter was a pastoral/nomadic steppe group with horses and with bronze tools. This probably allowed R1a in Eastern Europe to easily and entirely change the language of Entire Europe into IE language, but not large scale genetic replacement( from the original r1b language, perhaps Basque like language ) as we see large percentages of R1b in Spain, Portugal and France and even Ireland i think. Once sees a gradual reduction in the percentage of R1a as we across west from easter Europe to the shores of France.
And it was also possible, that R1a once existed across vast expanses of Central Asia all the way reaching upto Western China, especially right after the last ice age ended ( Anyone familiar with the caucasian Mummies found in western China? ). But i guess, the later westward expansion of Altaic speaking Turkic/Mongol tribes ( no doubt aided by their new found tools and horses, and harsh climatic conditions ) wiped out all this r1a in that region. ( this may explain the shape of R1a distritbution in the map, there are two areas of high concentrations one in N India and another in Eastern Europe, the in between region is filled with Turkic groups.
It is possible that R1b started in C Asia, went o'er the 'ol Caspian, and then, blocked by the climactic ice, dipped back down into the caucasus and from there into asia minor and onwards to europe. Maybe a few trudged along hugging the northern coast of the Black Sea as well. Yeah I know about C Asia but I am talking realistically here (discounting all herrenvolk fantasies).
By the time that R1a expanded there was no ice block and it completely overwhelmed E Europe.
Later, the Hatti followed the transcaucasus route into Asia Minor, while the Mittani, Sindoi, Kassites, and the Greco-Persians took a more direct ME route, along with their greekoid slaves.
It is also possible that the inland seas do not present any effective challenges to migration.
[/quote]
R1b must have originated a little earlier than R1a, and moving along Caspian Sea north and then west appears plausible, but equally likely is that R1b moved west before the last ice age, so did not really have to move north of Caspian sea, just migrated west and populated wester and northen Europe, but later they were pushed back to ice age refuges in Iberia and Balkans.
And then populating entire Northen and Western Europe and part of Central Europe as well, which was very thinly populated at that time.
R1a probably closely behind R1b, ( and assuming it originated in south central asia ) diffused/radiated across , towards central India, north towards caspian sea, and west towards Iran ( only eastern part of Iran ) and perhaps east towards east central asia. Again all this just prior to the last ice age ( approximately 18k to 20 K years ). Once ice age started and peaked, again R1a was pushed to pockets/refuges around Caspian Sea, and of course parts of Iran and India.
Once Ice age retreated, the R1a near Caspian sea/ Iran area expanded to Eastern Europe, Large parts of Central Asia and perhaps a little bit to Northern India, ( though i am not fully convinced of large scale migration to India ). Post glacial, R1a expansion to Eastern Europe was easy, because again it was not populated much.
One difference between population of R1b across western Europe and R1a across Easter Europe was the former was mostly hunter gatherers and neolithic farmers, whereas the latter was a pastoral/nomadic steppe group with horses and with bronze tools. This probably allowed R1a in Eastern Europe to easily and entirely change the language of Entire Europe into IE language, but not large scale genetic replacement( from the original r1b language, perhaps Basque like language ) as we see large percentages of R1b in Spain, Portugal and France and even Ireland i think. Once sees a gradual reduction in the percentage of R1a as we across west from easter Europe to the shores of France.
And it was also possible, that R1a once existed across vast expanses of Central Asia all the way reaching upto Western China, especially right after the last ice age ended ( Anyone familiar with the caucasian Mummies found in western China? ). But i guess, the later westward expansion of Altaic speaking Turkic/Mongol tribes ( no doubt aided by their new found tools and horses, and harsh climatic conditions ) wiped out all this r1a in that region. ( this may explain the shape of R1a distritbution in the map, there are two areas of high concentrations one in N India and another in Eastern Europe, the in between region is filled with Turkic groups.