'Evil' Hindu Practices

[Guest]

http://www.hindujagruti.org/eng/phpnews/ne...fullnews&id=607

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The state of Maharashtra has drafted what is known as the Maharashtra Eradication of Black Magic and Evil and Aghori Practices Bill, 2005. According to Minister for Social Justice, Chandrakant Handore, the Bill is to bring social awakening and awareness in society and to create a healthy and safe social environment, with a view to protecting the common people against the evil and sinister practices and customs, thriving on ignorance and to combat and eradicate the same.

These are noble intentions to curb what is a atrocity committed on people in rural India, especially when it's found to be an effective way to take revenge for perceived family insults. So a woman can be branded a witch and then punished. Here punishments can range from eating faeces to having to perform sexual acts in public or having chilli powder shoved into her vagina. She will be forced to face this, all because of someone arbitrarily branding her. So, this act will actually ban such practices, which are called 'aghori'. If that is the case, then why is there objection to this Bill being made into an Act?

Spokesperson, Hindu Janajagruti Samiti Dr Durgesh Samant explains why he's not happy with the Act. He told CNBC-TV18, "The many so-called offences in this Bill are covered by the Indian Penal Code. For example, under the pretext of expelling a ghost - if anyone assaults a person by tying him/her with a rope, then there is Section 319-329 for causing hurt, Section 320 for grievous hurt, Section 336 is for endangering life and personal safety, Section 508 is for making a person do something by threatening that not doing the act would subject him to divine displeasure, Section 117 is for impersonating a public servant, Section 497 is for adultery and Section 417 is for cheating.

But there is another opinion which says that the law can legislate, if it's clear about what it is legislating. Lawyer Anant Grover says, "There is also a rational basis to say that certain practices which are known to be not really working and so called Godmen are taking advantage of poor people, they need to be stopped. There is a similar act nationally called the Drug and Magic Remedies Act. Unfortunately that Act, doesn't actually stop the practices, it only addresses advertisements."

"Unfortunately, this (Black Magic) law in its definition has inluded a number of practices and because of that, it doesn't understand what it is trying to stop! I think the Drug and Magic Remedies Act is good because it understands what its trying to do, and it limits itself. The actual practice of black magic needs to be stopped."

What's more is that this Bill does not conve or even define black magic practices like 'aghori', 'karni' and 'bhanamati'. So in a way, what's the purpose of the bill? Samant agrees and says that when he sought information from the Maharashtra police, they said the present law is sufficient to curb these practices.

Then there is so much overlap between people's fears of black magic and the common rituals that people adhere to as a matter of faith. Some believe that this Bill, if it were enforced, then even someone like Satya Sai Baba and the act of producing 'bhooti' (which means 'glories') would be construed to be propagation of black magic. Samant says, "If Satya Sai Baba comes to Mumbai and performs something like this, he will be booked."

Grover though says, "If Satya Sai Baba were to deceive and defraud, I think even he should be punished, which is the intention of this Bill, though it is very imprecisely drafted. But that is not the point. In the eyes of his followers, they believe that he is actually doing something miraculous and he may not be defrauding them, then I do not think there is any harm in it. But the moment he starts curing diseases, tries to come into the field of medical treatment, which actually causes harm, then he should be punishable."

But as Samant points out that the Bill has no proper definition of what it means by the practice of 'tantra' because of there is no clarity, then many books on 'tantra-shastra' in Buddhism, in Jainism and in Hinduism will be covered by this Bill. So, books might land up getting banned along with the practice.

Grover agrees and says, "Though it is well intentioned, the practices which are sought to be prohibited are so imprecisely defined - it ranges not only from religious to spiritual practices. It is number 10 and 11A of the Schedule. This specifically made it an offence, whereas under Section 13 of the Act, religious practices, which do not cause harm, are exempted. There is an intrinsic contradiction in the Act. The problem with this Act, according to me is it is not workable, the Police cannot implement it and it is going to be an abject failure."

He adds, "It is a dangerous Bill because it is too broad, there are too many vague expressions in the Act and the Schedule should not be a definition. It should be reconsidered, and the government should get proper legal advice."

Points to ponder about the Bill

1. No person shall promote, propagate black magic, evil and 'aghori' practices.
2. Once the law is enacted, anyone advertising, practising, propagating black magic, evil and 'aghori' acts, would be punished with imprisonment for not less than six months and up to seven years and/ or with a fine ranging from Rs 5,000 to Rs 50,000.
3. The offence would be cognisable and non-bailable.
4. A police officer would be appointed as vigilance officer for a group of 4-5 police stations. He will be detecting and preventing the contravention and violation of the Act.
5. Anyone obstructing the vigilance officer in carrying out his duties, will be liable for prosecution and imprisonment as well as a fine.
6. The vigilance officer will have power to enter and search, at all reasonable times, with the help of the local police any place, in which he has reason to believe that an offence under this Act has been or is being committed.
7. Vigilance officer can seize any material, instruments or advertisements and can examine any records, documents or other material object found in any place, and seize any material as evidence.
8. If a group of people commits offence, every person will be held guilty under the Act.

Manali Rohinesh<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

Initially I had posted in some other political thread, but then I realised that there must be a whole bunch of hindu 'evil' practices that must have been BANNED by the Colonial power continuing to this day. In effect the present government seems to be a continuation of the colonial govt we got 'independence' from.

In any case, the point of this thread is to

(1) List the 'evil' hindu practices that GoI has banned.
(2) If possible post the process followed by the then govt to BAN the 'evil' practice. Dirks has some things listed but I cant find his book.
(3) List 'evil' practices of other religions that have been BANNED (if any).

Hopefully a good amount of material will be collected that will give us some insight and guidance on how to take this forward.

[Guest]

Bill is known as the Maharashtra Eradication of Black Magic and Evil and <span style='color:red'>"Aghori Practices" Bill, 2005</span>!!!

How ignorant can the political leaders get! Aghori literally means "a-ghori" or "not-extremist" : one who does not live in extremism of any kind. Aghor is a very evolved branch of Hath Yog. There are sects of Hathyogis who follow Aghor as a means of simple faith and self-realization. Kapalik and Aghori are also names of Lord Shiva.

Government can not misuse this word to brand it in a bad light! I understand they may want to target the prevention of misuse of Aghor, but not Aghor itself! By this logic, the practice of Islam itself will have to be banned by law, because name of Islam is misused by terrorists all over!

[Guest]

Source..

http://www.sunyaprajna.com/Worldview/SRKco...l#ArticleOnSati

quoting..

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25...2192027,00.html

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hundreds of villagers watched as Vidyawati Singh threw herself into the flames of her husband's funeral pyre. She was dead within minutes, leaving behind three children.

The 35-year-old widow's death last week has stunned India, and police investigating whether she was driven to commit sati have arrested more than a dozen villagers, including three of her brothers-in-law.

<b>The case has also added to growing pressure on the Indian Government to pass new legislation making it possible to prosecute whole communities for failing to prevent the practice of sati, in which a widow kills herself on her husband's funeral pyre.</b>

The present law prescribes a life sentence or death for anyone convicted of abetting sati, but convictions are hard to secure because villagers refuse to be witnesses. <b>The proposed new legislation, due to go before parliament this summer, would automatically assume sati was committed under duress, and that the woman's family could have stopped her.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. No person shall promote, propagate black magic, evil and 'aghori' practices.
2. Once the law is enacted, anyone advertising, practising, propagating black magic, evil and 'aghori' acts, would be punished with imprisonment for not less than six months and up to seven years and/ or with a fine ranging from Rs 5,000 to Rs 50,000.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->All this shows that Christianity is taking control of India. It's their method of taking over a non-Christian country in the 21st century (in the middle ages of Europe they had witchhunts and inquisitions and in Christian Rome's destruction of paganism they also had laws).
In India, they have <i>started the process now</i> with banning things they <i>define</i> as witchcraft and black magic - most of which actually tend to be Hindu practises or practises performed by Hindus. The media simultaneously gets Indians to perceive these acts as evil through the negative connotations of 'black magic' and 'witchcraft'. They insert non-verifiable or fabricated sightings of atrocious acts into media reports, alongside regular rural Hindu practises - grouping all of these things under the label 'black magic/witchcraft'.
Thus having brainwashed the English-educated elite, they amass popular support (just like the popular "we hate historical Sati" only because Indians learn of a biased version of it through history rewrites) to accept these anti-hindu laws.
The enacted Laws punish exactly the same crimes that European 'witches' and 'heretics' were punished for - that of not conforming to the Christian way of life - but reworded for the 21st century and in 'secular' language.

<b>In time, if no one stops them and they go unchallenged, these laws will become more stringent on Hindus, cover more ground and punish basic Hindu practises.</b> This is what happened with Rome when the Christian Roman emperors enacted increasingly more discriminatory and oppressive laws against pagan Romans and the traditional religions.

It is Sonia Gandhi and Christianity in India that is causing this to happen. Make no mistake: these laws are anti-Hindu (they are anti-pagan) and are the first of the anti-Hindu laws that they plan to enact. See:
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Jul 26 2006, 12:37 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Jul 26 2006, 12:37 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bill is known as the Maharashtra Eradication of Black Magic and Evil and <span style='color:red'>"Aghori Practices" Bill, 2005</span>!!!

How ignorant can the political leaders get!  Aghori literally means "a-ghori" or "not-extremist" : one who does not live in extremism of any kind.  Aghor is a very evolved branch of <b>Hath Yog</b>.  There are sects of Hathyogis who follow Aghor as a means of simple faith and self-realization.  Kapalik and <b>Aghori are also names of Lord Shiva</b>.[right][snapback]54569[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->'How ignorant can the political leaders get!' - they are far from being ignorant, but are counting on our ignorance. It is clear they know well what they are doing. It is us, who aren't realising it soon enough.


Note:
(1) Rome was pagan - Christian rulers in Rome enacted increasingly discriminatory laws against paganism and the pagan majority
(2) Medieval Europe was Christian with some people who didn't fit in completely - Christian powers of Europe enacted the witchhunts to wipe out remnants of unorthodox (i.e. non-Christian) practises.

India is now in situation (1). Goa under Portuguese rule had to face situation (2), because the forcibly converted Christians weren't really Christian either. But they were punished for their continued adherence to pagan (Hindu) practises, just like medieval Europeans were. That's the reason for the Goa Inquisitions punishing both Hindus and Hindu converts to Christianity.

[Guest]

I've copied and pasted the stuff below from the book Forgery In Christianity, online at http://www.infidels.org/library/historical.../chapter_7.html

It goes through some of the laws enacted by Christian emperors against the pagan character of Rome. The bit in bold is to indicate the present stage of Hindu India. For all those who are interested, read the whole excerpt to its conclusion.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->     Beginning with Constantine, and under succeeding "Christian"
emperors, there is a series of scores of laws which the Christians
procured to be enacted for the suppression and persecution to death
of Pagans, heretics and Jews. These laws and edicts are to be found
in the Codes of Theodosius and of Justinian, the two famous
codifleations of Roman Law. To <i>exhibit the progressive and
persistent system of proscription to which all but themselves were
persecutingly subjected by the "Orthodox" Christians</i>, I shall
simply quote the titles of some of these laws, with indication of
the names of the Emperors issuing them, the dates and number of the
laws, and the Code or other source in which it is preserved.

                       LAWS OF CONSTANTINE

     The earliest laws of Constantine were those granting religious
toleration, as the Edict of Milan (313) already quoted, and laws
for the redress of injuries done to Christians; such as release of
prisoners and those in servitude, and the restoration of property;
chapter 36 declares that "The Church is the heir of those who leave
no kindred; and free gifts to it are confirmed"; chapter 41: "Those
who have purchased property belonging to the Church or received it
as a gift, are to restore it." (Eusebius, Vita Constantine, N&PNF.
Bk. II, chs. xxiv-xliii.)

     "Edict to the People of the Provinces Concerning the Error of
Polytheism." (Ib. chs. xlviii-xlix.)

     "Granting Money to the Churches." (Ib. Bk, x, ch. vi.)

     "Catholic Clergy exempt from Certain Civic Duties." (Code
Theod. xvi, 2, 1; 313.) "The Catholic Church freed from Tribute."
(Id. xi, 1, 1; 815.) "Clergymen freed from Financial Burdens." (Id.
xvi, 2, 2; 319.) "The Church allowed to Receive Bequests." (Id.
xvi, 2, 4; 321.)

     "Bishop's Powers as Judges and Witnesses": "Whatever may be
settled by a sentence of bishops shall ever be held as sacred and
venerable ... All testimony given, even by a single bishop, shall
be accepted without hesitation, by every judge, neither shall the
testimony of any other witness be heard, when the testimony of a
bishop is brought forward by either party"! (Const. Sirm. i; 333.)

     "The Day of the Sun a Time of Rest." "All judges, and city
folk and all craftsmen shall rest on the venerated day of the Sun."
(Cod. Just. iii, 12, 2; 321.)

     "As it has seemed most unworthy that the Day of the Sun,
famous by its venerable character, ... Therefore on the festive
day." (Cod. Theod. ii, 8, 1; 321.)

     A number of laws follow in favor of the Pagans, and <b>while
prohibiting "private divination and soothsaying," and "Malevolent
Magic Prohibited, but Beneficial Magic Encouraged"</b>; also exempting
Pagan Flamens, priests and magistrates from sundry restrictions and
disabilities. No law of Constantine seems to be preserved which
prescribes active persecution; he seems to have sought to hold an
even balance of toleration to Pagans and Christians. But that he
did enact such laws seems to be proved by recital in the first of
the laws of his sons, Constantius and Constans, who were Arian
heretics.

                LAWS OF CONSTANTIUS AND CONSTANS

     "Sacrifice Prohibited.": "Let superstition cease and the folly
of sacrifices be abolished. Whoever has dared in the face of the
law of the divine prince, our father [Constantine] ... to make
sacrifices, shall have appropriate penalty, and immediate sentence
dealt to him." (Cod. Theod. xvi, 10, 2; 341.)

     "All Temples Closed and Sacrifices Forbidden." "but if any one
commit any offense of this sort, let him fall by the avenging
sword," and his property forfeited; judges neglecting to "mete out
penalties for these offenses, they shall be similarly punished."
(Cod. Theod. xvi, 10, 4; 846.)

     "Sacrificing and Idolatry Punishable by Death." "We order that
all found guilty of attending sacrifices or of worshipping idols
shall suffer capital punishment." (Id. xvi, 10, 6; 356.)

                 LAWS OF GRATIAN AND THEODOSIUS

     "Wills of Apostate Christians to be Set Aside": "The right of
making a will shall be taken from Christians who become pagans; and
if such persons make wills, they shall be set aside without regard
to circumstances." (Cod. Theod. xvi, 7, 1; 381:
cf. Cod. Justin. i, 7, 2; 382.)

     "The Right to Bequeath or Inherit Property Denied Apostates":
"We deny to Christians and the faithful who have adopted pagan
rites and religion all power of making a will in favor of any
person whatsoever, in order that they may be without the Roman law
[outlaws]; ... even of enjoying a will with the power of acquiring
an inheritance." (Cod. Theod. xvi, 7, 2; 383.) "The Right of Making
a Will Denied Christians Who enter Temples." ( Id. xvi, 7, 3; 383.)

               LAWS OF THEODOSIUS AND VALENTINIAN

     "Testamentary Disqualification for Christian Apostates," and
Outlawry as Witnesses. -- "Those who betray the sacred faith and
profane holy baptism are shut off from association of all and from
giving testimony. ... They may not exercise the right of making a
will, nor enter upon any inheritance; they may not be made anyone's
heir." (Id. xvi, 7, 4; 391.)

     "Sacrificing and Visiting Shrines Prohibited." (Id. xvi, 10,
10; 391.) -- "Sacrifices Forbidden and Temples Closed." (Id. xvi,
10, 11; 391.)


     "PAGANISM OUTLAWED." -- "IF any one dares [to sacrifice,
etc.], let any man be free to accuse him and let him receive, as
one guilty of lese majeste, ... for it is sufficiently a crime."
(Id. xvi, 10. 12; 392.)

                  LAWS OF HONORIUS AND ARCADIUS

     "Pagan Holidays Abolished." (Cod. Theod. ii, 8, 22; 895.) --
"Privileges of Pagan Priests Abolished." (Id. xvi, 10, 14; 396.) --
"Rural Temples to be Destroyed." (Id. xvi. 10, 16; 399.) --
"Temples to be Appropriated by the Churches." (Id. xvi, 5, 43;
408.) -- "Temples to be Appropriated by the Churches. Temple
Buildings and their Revenues to be Confiscated and idols and
Shrines to be Destroyed." (Id. xvi, 5, 43; xvi, 10, 19; 407.)

     "Only Catholics to Serve as Palace Guards." (Cod. Theod. xvi.
5, 42; 408.)

     "Laws Against the Pagans to be Enforced": "The Donatists and
other vain heretics and those others who cannot be converted to the
worship of the Catholic communion, Jews and Gentiles who are
vulgarly known as pagans; ... Let all judges understand, and not
fail to carry out all decrees against such persons." (Id. xvi,. 5,
46; 409.)

     "Pagans Barred from Civil and Military Offices." (Id. xvi, 10,
21; 416.)

     "Existing Laws against Pagans to be Enforced." (Id. xvi, 10,
22; 423.) -- "Pagans Who Sacrifice Shall Lose their Property and be
Exiled"' (Id. xvi, 10, 23; 423.)

     "Pagan Superstition to be Rooted Out": "We are extirpating all
heresies and all falsehoods, all schisms and all superstitions of
the pagans and all errors that are inimicable to the Catholic
religion. ... And since all attempt at supplication is denied
forever, they will be punished with the severity befitting crimes."
(Id. xvi, 5, 63; 423.)

     "Pagans Barred from Pleading a Case or Serving as Soldiers":
"... and every sect unfriendly with the Catholics should be driven
out of every city in order that they may not be sullied by the
contagious presence of criminals. We deny to Jews or pagans the
right of pleading a case in court or of serving as soldiers."
(Const. Sirm. No. 6; 425.)

                   LATER LAWS AGAINST PAGANISM

     "Pagan Rites Forbidden and Bequests for Pagan Cults
Prohibited." (Cod. Just. i, 11, 9; 472.)

     "Baptized Persons who follow Pagan Practices to Suffer Death.
Provisions for the Conversion of the Unbaptized. Pagans Forbidden
to Give Instruction." (Cod. Just. 1, 11, 10; no date given.)

     "Pagans Barred from Office and their Real Property
Confiscated." "The Emperors Justin and Justinian. ... It is our
intention to restore the existing laws which affect the rest of the
heretics of whatever name they are, (and we label as heretic
whoever is not a member of the Catholic Church and of our orthodox
and holy faith); likewise the pagans who attempt to introduce the
worship of many gods, and the Jews and the Samaritans. ... We
forbid any of the above-mentioned persons to aspire to any dignity
or to acquire civil or military office or to attain to any rank."
(Id. i, 5, 12; 527.)

     Thus was Pagan Superstition proscribed and destroyed by Christian law and sword; and the identical Pagan Superstitions under the veneer of the name of Christian established and enthroned. The subject is thoroughly examined by Prof. Maude A. Huttmann, in The Establishment of Christianity Through the Proscription of Paganism<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The sentence in blue is stating that it was through these increasingly anti-pagan laws that Rome's pagan character was destroyed and that Christianity was enforced (Rome became Christian).


In India's case, acts of inhumanity ought to be punished. And regular laws have the power to do that - just like is stated here:<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Jul 25 2006, 10:32 PM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Jul 25 2006, 10:32 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.hindujagruti.org/eng/phpnews/ne...fullnews&id=607

<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Spokesperson, Hindu Janajagruti Samiti Dr Durgesh Samant explains why he's not happy with the Act. He told CNBC-TV18, "The many so-called offences in this Bill are covered by the Indian Penal Code. For example, under the pretext of expelling a ghost - if anyone assaults a person by tying him/her with a rope, then there is Section 319-329 for causing hurt, Section 320 for grievous hurt, Section 336 is for endangering life and personal safety, Section 508 is for making a person do something by threatening that not doing the act would subject him to divine displeasure, Section 117 is for impersonating a public servant, Section 497 is for adultery and Section 417 is for cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->[right][snapback]54559[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->But these new anti-witchcraft laws in India are not for preventing abuse at all. They are aimed at destroying non-ChristoIslamism in India.

Also, why do we have a law against adultery ('Section 497 is for adultery')? It is biblical.
Adultery in Hinduism (and in truly secular countries) is an ethical dilemma not a crime for the law to punish. Did section 497 enter during British colonial rule?

[Guest]

Is this law going to cover Teresa also or her will be called miracle?
Or Sufi cult will be treated as religious miracle or eveil practice?

[Guest]

http://www.hindujagruti.org/eng/phpnews/ne...fullnews&id=686

More on the 'evil' hindu practices law. interview with karan thapar. Where can I get xcript of whole interview ?

[Guest]

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Are we looking for miracles to happen?</span>


There’s despondency, hatred, hostility, discontentment and most of all terror around us and in our lives. I know the picture looks very pessimistic but isn’t that true? If we think it’s not true then we are in some kind of self-denial. This is true not just in our lives or country but it’s same around the world. There seems to be no peace anywhere in the world. Even in a country like the US people live in fear and are insecure about their lives everyday. A classic example of this insecurity is what has happened recently in the US where a flight had to be landed midway in an emergency because a lady passenger was carrying a screwdriver. If we look at extreme cases like Iraq, even highly educated women keep weapons at home for security because they are not sure about seeing the sunrise next day. Most of them swallow intoxicating drugs for a peaceful nap. Women are living in worst conditions compared to men. Actually, the conditions are much worse than what we read and hear in news/ papers. No nation is free from terrorism. We can be attacked and terrorized anytime and anywhere.

At the personal level too most of us are looking for an escape route. Yes, we have the art of living, yoga, personal management theories, therapies, spirituality etc. to deal with our daily problems and anxiety but still there seems to be no remedy to the teething troubles that we are going through. There are no second thoughts about admitting that it takes great courage and will power to fight these evils in our lives.

We can combat with them by bringing into line all our physical and mental faculties. There’s not even an iota of doubt in saying that we lost all our confidence in our so called leaders and politicians. In such situations people need to be directed. Their strengths need to be tapped and directed towards building a new and peaceful society. Perhaps we are looking for a leader who can help us achieve it. When incidents like Lord Ganesha drinking milk and the sea water turning sweet happen people conceive it as miracle because they are desperate. Desperate for miracles to happen and eventually give them hope of a better tomorrow. The intellectual, scientific and rational mind does not accept this theory because it believes in what it sees and senses but the sensitive and emotional heart believes it. Nobody would want to drink filthy and poisonous water but the crowd was so desperate that it cared less to listen to the authorities warning them of serious diseases. I don’t say that we have to be superstitious. There’s a difference in being superstitious and optimistic. Belief and faith make us optimistic. It is this belief and hope that makes life worth living. Perhaps, this hope lies in the space somewhere between the head and the heart. The leader we are looking for can be one of us and if we are not then we would look for some form of miracle. Whatever or whoever it is we do need miracles. I do need a miracle to live in a peaceful world.

[Guest]

<b>Sati-Pratha and its origins</b>

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Sati-Pratha is a favourite topic among Hindu-bashers. As soon as they are 
questioned about the validity of their own claims, goals and methods they 
immediately start harping on Sati-Pratha.

And lo! The trick works. The  questioning Hindu becomes defensive. He never
tries to probe into the origin of  so-called Sati-Pratha, or at least about its
rumours. So, let us try to do it  here, what the typical-Hindu always
refrains to.

.....

<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

K.Ram ji,

Thank you for starting this discussion. We should definitely create awareness and discuss aspects we don't otherwise get to see about Sati and other such concepts and practices.

I went through the article of above link. A few things are not corraborative to the facts.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Sati-Pratha is nowhere mentioned in Hindu scriptures. Not a hint of it.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well. There are no examples of forceful burning, but there are indeed examples of volunteer Sati cases in scriptures.

1. Mahabharat: Maadri the wife of Pandu, committed sati after Pandu's death. But again reason was guilt of (indirectly) being the cause of her husbands death.
2. Shiv Puran: Sati - the wife of Shiva - threw herself in Yagna-kunda, when Shiva was insulted. Again, the reason was that she felt responsible for the insult since it was she who had insisted upon Shiva joining the ceremony un-invited. Strictly not sati case.

But, at the same time, there are plentiful examples where famous widows did not commit sati, thereby proving that sati was certainly neither mandatory, nor encouraged. Some famous widows:

1. Ramayana: Kaushalya, Sumitra, Kaikeyi lived on for many years even after the death of King Dasaratha.
2. Ramayana: Mandodari lived on after the death of Ravana. (I read somewhere - she married Vibhishana?)
3. Mahabharat: No evidence of the wives of Kauravas committing Sati. In fact there is a story in Shanti Parva, where Pandavas feel guily seeing the widows of Kauravas, and would conduct a grand Yagna for the guilt.

In latter times too we have several examples of widows from Meera to Ma Sharada (wife of Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa).

[Guest]

There are some great posts on Sati in the Stree Dharma thread.

[agnivayu]

In Japanese society, ritual suicide is very common even today. Hindus are nowhere near that level.

And most Hindus would oppose suicide, especially now that we need all the numbers we can get to counter the Islamic tide.

[Guest]

Todays rediff question

Should India ban firecrackers?

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/oct/13msg...&file=.htm

[Shambhu]

Is there any example is the scriptures where women are forced to commit sati? From what I know, super-civilized types' Hindu bashing manual says Hindus force the widows to commit sati. If a person does whatever out of grief etc, that's their business. It is a suicide, and illegal, but nobody made them kill themselves. Lots of cultured, sophisticated, civilized people (Witzel-Farmer: I am talking about the genuinely cultured people: the white ones) have slashed their wrists in the tub. No one forced them to do it.

[Guest]

I have come to a conclusion that a better way to answer the negative propaganda is to challenge others to come up with a comparison of the the "best" portrayal of women from all cultures and religions around the world.

So far propagandists have been beating hinduism unfairly by selective and creative quoting of sparse texts.

But the real picture will come out when we focus on the best that hinduism has had to say about women, which is orders of magnitude better than any other culture/religion.

[agnivayu]

Never defend when someone attacks you. Muster twice the strength and strike back with counter-propaganda. Those who really want to get along with different people will make an effort to do so. The one's who usually unleash a torrent of hate against Hinduism don't want to get along. So, we should check their background and attack them the same way, there is always plenty of mud to sling against every species.



<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+Oct 16 2006, 08:49 AM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Oct 16 2006, 08:49 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have come to a conclusion that a better way to answer the negative propaganda is to challenge others to come up with a comparison of the the "best" portrayal of women from all cultures and religions around the world.

So far propagandists have been beating hinduism unfairly by selective and creative quoting of sparse texts.

But the real picture will come out when we focus on the best that hinduism has had to say about women, which is orders of magnitude better than any other culture/religion.
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[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Supreme Court in Nepal has ordered an inquiry into whether the tradition of worshipping a "living goddess" has led to the exploitation of girls.
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[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Oct 5 2006, 07:47 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Oct 5 2006, 07:47 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Mahabharat: Maadri the wife of Pandu, committed sati after Pandu's death. But again reason was guilt of (indirectly) being the cause of her husbands death.
2. Shiv Puran: Sati - the wife of Shiva - threw herself in Yagna-kunda, when Shiva was insulted.  Again, the reason was that she felt responsible for the insult since it was she who had insisted upon Shiva joining the ceremony un-invited.  Strictly not sati case.

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Ya but that's got nothing to do with treatment of women. men too sacrificed as much for their Dharma/duty. didn't pandavas and even lord krishan embressed willing and painful death by going to himalays?

Ek lavya, Ram etc.. there is just as much examples of men going through extreme pain to obey their dharma. just look around your own family we Hindus don't look at women as inferior, superior or equal. we look at them as compatible or incompatible / capable or incapable of doing their duty as woman.. just the way we look at a man as being capable or incapable of doing his duty.

[Guest]

Onwards psecular undercover Christo soldiers/infiltrators!
First Sachin Tendulkar was blasted by the media for 'superstition' (in other words, for his Hinduism), now it's the turn of Aishwarya. And it's not just the media this time, it's a lawsuit slapped on her by some woman conditioned by christoislamicommunism.

http://masalaspice.com/2007/02/03/case-fil...s-tree-wedding/
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Case filed against Ash’s tree wedding</b>
(See photo on page: Aish looking beautiful, as always)

Patna: A public interest litigation (PIL) has been filed in the Patna High Court against Bollywood star Aishwarya Rai for marrying trees to overcome astrological differences with her fiancé Abhishek Bachchan.

<b>Lawyer Shruti Singh, who filed the PIL earlier this week, says the ritual promotes untouchability.</b>
(She is joking right, because I can't believe anyone could really be this stupid.)

“I filed a PIL to stop such practices as reportedly conducted by actor Amitabh Bachchan for his future daughter-in-law Aishwarya Rai.<b> It is in violation of Article 17 of the Constitution, which prohibits untouchability. It also violates fundamental human rights,” said Shruti.</b>  <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Aishwarya is a Manglik (astrologically Mars-bearing), which is believed to have negative consequences for her impending marriage. The actress is said to have married a peepal tree at Benaras, a banana tree at a Bangalore temple and a god’s idol in Ayodhya.

<b>According to Shruti, the fact that Aishwarya had to marry the trees and the idol before marrying Abhishek, who is a non-Manglik, amounts to untouchability.</b>

“The rituals performed by Aishwarya, Amitabh and Abhishek would only promote superstitions and blind faith among common people,” Shruti, who is also a women’s rights activist, said.
(She doesn't speak for any woman I know. Aishwarya wants and is excercising the <i>rights of any human</i>: to be allowed to marry a tree or a Vishnu vigraham, when it does not hurt anyone else. SS ought to stop impinging on Aishwarya's and Hindus rights to do what we wish.
And it has NOTHING to do with untouchability - what the heck is that accusation about?)

Her PIL requests the court to issue a directive to the state government and the Bihar State Religious Trust Board (BSRTB) to stop the practice of marrying a Manglik-born bride first with a tree, god or animal prior to her marrying a non- Manglik man.
(Lawyer SS of the fascist, psecular, anti-Hindu brigade is essentially saying: "Stop Hindoos and their temples from performing private Hindoo functions. Though I don't visit any temples, I can't abide by the fact that some Hindoo somewhere is happy or okay with doing Hindoo things in their Hindoo temples. How dare they, it makes me fume! Curtail their rights, because their business and their happiness is causing me anguish.")

<b>She has sought a ban on the performance of such marriages at temples in Bihar including Shitla temple in Patna, Baikatpur temple near Fatuha and the Shiva temple at Deoghar.</b>

The activist has also <b>demanded a public apology</b> from the Bachchan family for asking Aishwarya to enter into such false marriages.

“<b>An FIR should be filed </b>against Bachchan, his wife Jaya and Samajwadi Party leader Amar Singh for encouraging such practices,” Shruti said. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about the exorcisms and speaking in tongues, lying on the ground and doing spastic movements that are performed in pentecostal churches, then? Sue all of them, instead. And those churches are actually <i>promoting</i> (real) superstition by going around missionizing - spreading Jeebus' speaking-in-tongues Word and all.

Ooh, look. That fake 'Hindu' organisation has sought out the occasion to make a timely reapparance. Drat. Just when I thought they had already imploded because of their self-conceit:
http://masalaspice.com/2007/02/03/case-fil...s-tree-wedding/
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>US Hindu reform group condemns rituals by Bachchan</b>
From correspondents in Americas, 05:01 PM IST
A US-based international Hindu reform organisation has expressed disapproval of the ritualistic ceremonies performed by Bollywood superstar Amitabh Bachchan for his son Abhishek and fiance Aishwarya Rai.

Aishwarya is a Manglik (astrologically Mars-bearing), which is believed to have negative consequences for her impending marriage. The actress is said to have married a peepal tree at Benaras, a banana tree at a Bangalore temple and a god's idol in Ayodhya.

The organisation Navya Shastra commends the Bachchans for their Hindu religiosity and charitable works but is extremely concerned about their actions, which will have an unhealthy impact on their fan base.

Before announcing their engagement, Abhishek and Aishwarya performed a series of poojas (offerings) at the Kashi Vishwanath temple and the Sankat Mochan temple in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh. After their engagement, the couple also sought the blessings of the deity at the Vindhyavasini Temple.

'What concerns us is that millions of people may rationalise their mistreatment of women based upon the Abhishek-Aishwarya example,' said Jaishree Gopal, <b>Navya Shastra</b> Chairman, in a press statement.

'As it is, hundreds of thousands of women, and even some men, have difficulty marrying because of the alleged perniciousness of a random confluence of stars,' added Gopal.

The organisation opines that astrology and similar unscientific practices should be renounced in marital matchmaking and other everyday activities in Hindu society.

It claims that much of the so-called Hindu astrology is an imported amalgamation of long-invalidated pseudo-sciences emerging from Babylon, Greece and Persia, and should be discarded as irrelevant to Hindu tradition.

Noting that the religious rationale for untouchability is also based upon an accidental birth, Navya Shastra urges the Bachchans and Aishwarya to renounce such actions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(1) Hindu astrology is not imported, but developed in India. Persia did import demonology from Babylon, but India is not Persia.
(2) Again: nothing to do with 'untouchability'. What is going on in these loonies' minds? The rituals Aish took part in have to do with Hindu astrology (to do with time and location and alignment of heavenly bodies during birth).
Taking just these two points into consideration, Navya Shastra is not Hindu at all and knows nothing about either Indian history (1) or Hinduism (2).

The case involving Aishwarya is merely the psecular government-fostered sentiment against Hindu celebrities doing anything Hindu that makes it into the newspapers. Gasp! Hindus might actually realise the lives of their favourite cricketplayer or actress involves Hindu activities and that might promote Hinduism. This must be prevented at all costs!