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Miscellaneous Topics discussion - 2
I suport the right of everybody to promote and spread their ideas as long as they dont promote intolerant doctrines or/and dont use subversive means for that.
HareKrishna: My post was addressed to Husky, not to you.

some yt comments by the site author (he sounds almost Indian)

I am here dantyba...at your service...And I should tell you I love Bollywood and I don't like Roman liturgy or virtually anything about Julius Caesar or those awful Romans...

Culture isn't universal, as I know it: the only thing universal about the RCC, if you listen to El Papa, is power: the messianic power of Caesar over his conquered people. If you don't believe me, why not read Francesco Carotta or Joseph Atwill... There was not Jesus, only a Papal comic book about him!

Good advice, but the missionaries have done their worst! It should be the law that whereever a bible is sold, a copy of Francesco Carotta and Joe Atwill's Caesar's Messiah should also be sold! That might cure the myth-makers and war-mongers!

Audinos: I wait to know when you count the number of Jesuit Universities in India, bro; so please stop praying, scraping , bowing and loving God: just count how many Jesuit Unviersities in India, then we know if my statements be crass , as you say... or whether you hide holy truth from foolishly believing peoples, bro....

Audinos : why you no answer simple question. How many Jesuit Universities in India? How many , bro.... no be ashamed at how successful imperialist church is.... just tell people truth, so they can understand when pope divide your people like Korea, Vietnam and East Timor...

I'll be very honest with you, we Vietnamese would have divided ourselves anyways, just like you have divided yourself from the sane and logical. Diversity and harmony makes great music; we can deal with our own problems and we certainly don't need some crazy English dude with too much time and not enough friends to try to divide and antagonize neighbors.

Sure , the Vietneamese people would divide like the spreading of the Red Sea; they would have put in Christo-American Diem by the grace of God, the monks would burn themselves for fun, and then they would pay the Americans for blasting them to Heaven. But bro, the Koreans happened to do the same, the Jugoslavians, the Irish... anywhere the Roman Church got a hold! Curious!

Every relaiton with India is a Jesuit penetration. The RC church has not yet divided India, as it has everywhere else in the world. But the Jesuits are working hard at it. As a Westerner, I find it sad, to have old Indian beliefs replaced with ridiculous Roman ones! It is such an act of cultural and colonial vandalism!

Oh, any video about Catholics would not be complete without a hatemongering, Anti-Catholic, racist bigot showing his face.

Hi Gurrier, if you do not turn the other cheek, I understand... I expect a roaring Roman in Japan to be a bit shell-shocked...! But Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the work of the Christian US, especially after their 1939 deal with Cardinal... what's hi s name/ Ah! yes; cardinal Paceili...From one Hirotito to another...

Where do you uneducated fools come from?

I come from country that send jesuits, redemptorists, franciscans and dominicans to teach your country (and you) how to think ... why? where ou theenk roman katolicoes come from? De no come from India or Pakistan hehehe! or Japan! hehehe! or Vietnam hehehe! or North Korea hehehe!

Firstly, what is my country? You don't know me. Secondly, most of the Catholic priests in my area are from Nigeria, Vietnam, and India (and none are Jesuits). Thirdly, I have studied religions and philosophies from all over the world and have come to believe that the Catholic Church contains the fullness of God's revealed truth. Nobody told me what to think. Fourthly, the Society of Jesus is far too fragmented along ideological lines to be as monolithic as you seem to think they are.

What? ou study 'religions and philosophies from all over the world' and make sentence like: "Where do you uneducated fools come from?' Tell me what phisosophy, bro? Where you study? I like to theenk up such wonderful rapartee: "Where to you uneducated fools come from?" You piresteen all rigith, even if you hide behind bell-collection...

I understand if English is not your first language, since I have no idea what "piresteen all rigith" means (Irish?), but your crass statements about Jesuits and their plotting carries all the academic weight of Jack Chick. Bro. Hehehe.

sebreathnach (1 year ago) Show Hide
'Priesteen' Gaelic word for fairy from Rome... Priesteens kill all pagans in my country and papacy, who first recieve all land free to build in privilege, betray pagan chiefs and kill culture. See 2.b. irish-criminology dot com.. Now, jesuits own all universities, no one speak Gaelic,only Latin, Polish and English... Gaelic culture dead as Mammoth,bro...

Don't you know that there are Jesuits hiding behind every bush! Freemasons too! Never mind that India has had a Christian (Catholic) presence since the Apostle Thomas first arrived.

How many Jesuit universities there now? Have you counted? Brahmans get out of the way!.. El Papa cometh...

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." Frederic Bastiat, France, 1850<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Very interesting short documentary about Cardinal Pacelli AKA "Hitler's Pope"

The Catholic Church hierarchy - especially Eugenio Pacelli, before and after he became Pope Pius XII - aided the Nazis. Indeed, Pacelli and the Church played a central role in making Hitler the dictator of Germany. Important Link

Hitler was a Catholic and put into power by the Vatican so that he would sign a concordat with them. Prior, the German government refused the Concordat more than twice and look what the vatican did to them for that. Look at how they were punished. They were manipulated and brought so much pain upon.
Everything regarding Nazism came from Rome initially. Like the 'Nazi Salute' is really the 'Roman Salute'(More Pictures of 'Roman Salute') Hitler said his Nazi order was Fashioned after the Jesuit order and had transferred much of the Jesuit order into his own party. This is important. Please read about the concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican. </b>


<img src='http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e372/tlthe5th/02-14-200702_09_00PM.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

"Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler and most members of the party's "old guard" were Catholics", wrote M. Frederic Hoffet. "It was not by accident that, because of its chiefs' religion, the National-socialist government was the most Catholic Germany ever had... This kinship between National-socialism and Catholicism is most striking if we study closely the propaganda methods and the interior organisation of the party. On that subject, nothing is more instructive than Joseph Goebbel's works. He had been brought up in a Jesuit college and was a seminarist before devoting himself to literature and politics... Every page, every line of his writings recall the teaching of his masters; so he stresses obedience... the contempt for truth... "Some lies are as useful as bread!" he proclaimed by virtue of a moral relativism extracted from Ignatius of Loyola's writings..." Frederic Hoffet: "L'lmperialisme protestant" (Flammarion, Paris 1948, pp.172 ss).

sebreathnach<span style='color:red'>
Every relaiton with India is a Jesuit penetration. The RC church has not yet divided India, as it has everywhere else in the world. But the Jesuits are working hard at it. As a Westerner, I find it sad, to have old Indian beliefs replaced with ridiculous Roman ones! It is such an act of cultural and colonial vandalism!</span>
^^ Important.

Following would have been off-topic in original thread -
<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Jun 13 2009, 10:39 PM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Jun 13 2009, 10:39 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->You can call wishfull thinking ,but i hope the jat-goth-getae conection is true in some way.My self being a dakia-getae.Especialy if jats have really a strong sense of justice,a feeling also dear to me.
[right][snapback]98719[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Romani, why would you make genetic connection into a requirement? Is character a genetic trait? (I don't know.) Being an Indian, I am in some degree genetically related to Indians on this board as well as to other Angelsk-enabled Indians writing things outside of IF, and still have surprisingly very little in common with most of them.

If you are attracted to a sense of justice, then that could well be because this is a vital principle for you. Perhaps you are attracted to others that place a similar emphasis on a sense of justice, <i>because</i> you yourself value it so much.

There is such a thing as recognising spiritual kinship with people. And that bond I suspect is far stronger than a mere genetic relation. It's the difference between friends and distant family: you consciously <i>choose</i> your friends to be those people you admire and share things in common with. Why then should it be pivotal for you to find yourself physically related through some distant past to people who at some point in time placed an emphasis on whatever character trait you value?

Let's pick a straightforward example. For instance, being an Indian - and Tamizh what's more - I'm sure I am not related to Julian genetically, but don't need to be either in order for me to admire him or to recognise him as being a true and great-hearted friend of Natural Traditions and humanity, and therefore harbour fellow-feeling for him. There's no remote sense of loss by my not being genetically related to him.

The world would be a very lonely place mentally/spiritually if we were not allowed to feel an affinity to those people who were not somehow directly related to us. Have never felt any sense of jealousy in sharing my own ancestors with others. I think I actually learnt this from my grandparents, because they most seriously regarded themselves (and hence, so did I) as being equally grandparent to many other children in their village. Likewise I lay strong and valid claims to other Hindus' direct ancestors as being my own. Even where there may not be any visibly direct or recent genetic transmission to me. And I do so because they - well, they simply belong to me; completely, and in the only sense that matters. I don't have to defend such a statement, of course - it's perfectly natural; and have moreover noticed that this is the usual thing among Hindus in Bharatam. (The opposite is true too, obviously: I recognise no meaningful affinity with some who may or may not turn out to have whatever degree of genetic linkage with me.)

One last thing before this rather drab monologue ends: surely a keen sense of justice is not unique to the ethnic groups you mentioned, nor to your own known ancestors nor even to your own person. Perhaps it is shared by many more populations and subcommunities (and individuals) than have been advertised with the same.
the 4 mega-civilisations map:european,afro-asiatic,indic,sinic
<img src='http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6894/slopezoom1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Hitler and Occult


What they are saying is that there was a movement in Europe to create a new Christianity based on a non-Hebrew, non-Roman basis and Hitler seized the opportunity. By calling the movements "occult" they are trying to suppress the gaze and curiouity as to how and why the Hitler and Nazi movement grew. The AIT and PIE etc are closely enmeshed in this new Christianity movement.

AIT provides a non Bibilcal origin of peoples. PIE gives an independent on Hebrew source for their languages.

So if they give up the AIT and locate PIE in Indian sub-continent they have given up on their re-engineering project.
<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Jul 15 2009, 06:21 PM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Jul 15 2009, 06:21 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->the 4 mega-civilisations map:european,afro-asiatic,indic,sinic


What is interesting about this map is that they have included C Asia as a part of mideast (and not as a logical extension out of S Asia).
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Jul 15 2009, 09:59 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Jul 15 2009, 09:59 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hitler and Occult


What they are saying is that there was a movement in Europe to create a new Christianity based on a non-Hebrew, non-Roman basis and Hitler seized the opportunity. By calling the movements "occult" they are trying to suppress the gaze and curiouity as to how and why the Hitler and Nazi movement grew. The AIT and PIE etc are closely enmeshed in this new Christianity movement.

AIT provides a non Bibilcal origin of peoples. PIE gives an independent on Hebrew source for their languages.

So if they give up the AIT and locate PIE in Indian sub-continent they have given up on their re-engineering project.

So, they arrived in India, discovered a "faith" that "proclaimed" 'compassion for all living beings' but that was non-iconoclastic and non-normative and was not an instrument of state propaganda, with no discernible ecclesiastical structure or divine mission, but which had expanded solely because there was a congruence of learning configuration across asia. They realized that Christianity (with its sordid 'belief'-motivated history) would appear ideological in comparision to such an entity. They then set out to transform the 'Sangha' into the "buddhist church", a pale version of the christian church (otherwise their faith Christianity would have been shown to be "ideological" - that is, man-made versus god-made (categories which are nonsensical in asia))). Hence, their manufacture of persecution of buddhism by the parent "religion" Hindu"ism" and sundry other manufactures..

Maurya-greek synchronicity was essential to this project to show non-normatibve buddhism as variant and derivative of normative christianity. And AIT was necessary to show the same with respect to Hinduism.
Maurya-Greek synchronicity was essential to this project to show non-normative Buddhism as variant and derivative of normative Christianity. And AIT was necessary to show the same with respect to Hinduism.

I think you have arrived at fundamental problem of colonial interpretation of Hindu history. Eventhough Buddhism is before Christianism. Karen Armstrong says all these were founded in the Axis age from 500 BC to 100 AD.
Hindu Economics and Charity

In a recent article on Wall Street Journal, its bureau chief in New Delhi Paul Beckett has wondered why India’s rich were not generous enough towards charity, has exhorted them to ‘open their wallets’, and implicitly made reference to the Hindu roots of the phenomenon.

His misguided opinion is a typical example of how the western journalists posted in India develop their views and spread the typical stereotypes about India, whose spirit they have never tried to, or succeeded in, grasping. His usage of the derogatory term “Hindu Rate of Growth” reminds us of a similarly stale and offending commentary on the growth of Indian Industry by another western journalist stationed in India, Edward Luce, in his ‘In Spite of the Gods: The Strange Rise of Modern India’. Unfortunately for them, these western commentators on the economics of India are prisoners of their cognitive cocoon, and while physically being here, they fail to understand the experience of Hindu Civilization and keep ignorantly applying the norms and standards of their own culture when commenting about India.

Rajeev Srinivasan has masterfully responded with his incisive reply to the ignorant premise taken by Beckett on the “Hindu Rate of Growth”, and Dr. Koenraad Elst has dissected at length Luce’s outlook in a recent article. Here we shall share some random thoughts from the historical perspectives on Hindu outlook to economy and charity, and try showing how, there is continuity even today, although latent, of the same outlook prevailing among the more traditional Hindu shreShThins of our age.

The very reason why industry is needed to flourish, according to kauTilya, is to spread dharma in society which alone can beget lasting and all-round happiness. artha, the economy, he says, is the most important function of society, as it is solely from this basis that both the fulfillment of dharma and pursuit of desires can be accomplished (“arthaiva pradhAnaiiti kauTilyaH arthamUlau hi dharmakAmau iti: AS 1.7.6-7). Economy is like a tree, further says kauTilya, if whose roots are rooted in dharma, it produces the fruits of happiness. Achievement of such dhArmika wealth further promotes dharma and produces more wealth and gives more pleasure. This is the achievement of all the gains. (dharma-mUlatvAt kAma-phalatvAchArthasya dharma-artha-kAma anubandhA yA^arthasya siddhiH sA sarva.artha.siddhiH AS9.7.81)

Creation of wealth for the welfare of society was considered so important that bR^ihadAraNyaka upaniShada relates that bramhA was compelled to create the vaishya-s skilled in industrial enterprise and organizing business, since the first two varNa-s proved incapable or disinclined in doing so. (“…sa naiva vyabhavat, sa viShamasR^ijat, yAnyetAni devajAtAni, gaNASha AkhyAyante…”).

So, continuous creation of wealth is of absolute importance for the stability of society, which is required for the growth of dharma. kauTilya holds that if happiness is the objective and strength is the power, then wealth is one of the three types of those strengths to achieve it. (“shaktiH siddhishca | balaM shaktiH | sukhaM siddhiH | shaktistrividhA … kosha-daNDa-balaM…” AS6.2.31-34), and it is one of the reasons, why a government is needed, that is for prospering the society and spreading the dharma. A government is required for security of wealth, and once peace and industry is ensured (through a 6-fold policy that he enumerates), all-round wealth is automatically created. (“shamavyAyAmau yogakSemayoryoniH | shamavyAyAmayoryoniH ShADguNyam…” AS6.2.1&4).

But not only ensuring the right environ for society to generate and secure the wealth, but also the guarantee that the wealth really reaches the people, is counted by kauTilya as a basic prerequisite. (“…loka-priyatvam artha-saMyogena vR^ittiM… AS1.7.1). Therefore, the wealth of society is to not only be protected but also distributed. It is the people who are, for him, the center of good governance, and without attention to them a society, he says, is like a barren cow, useless and yielding no milk. (“puruShavad hi rAjyam; apuruShA gaurvandhyeva kiM duhIta… AS7.11.24-25”)

Hoarding of wealth, without either consuming it or distributing it, is throughout denounced by all the Hindu thinkers and dharma-shAstrakAra-s. Traditional wisdom tells us that charity, enjoyment, and destruction, wealth is only destined to go in one of these three ways. One who neither spends in charity, nor enjoys it, his is sure to go by the way of the third, i.e. destroyed. (“dAnaM bhogo nAshastistrI gatayo bhavanti vittasya; yo na dadAti na bhu~Nkte cha tasya tR^itIyA gatirnAshaH — vikrama charita, Andhra, 3.86).

A more aesthetically presented view of the same thought, from another source: ‘the wealth of those who simply hoard theirs, is eventually enjoyed not by them but by the others, like the honey collected through the industriousness of someone else is eventually consumed by someone else!’ (“ati-saMchaya-kartR^iNAM vittamansya kAraNaM; anyaiH saMchIyate yatnAdanyaishcha madhu pIyate”: vallabhadeva.474).

Another author intuitively compares unconsumed and hoarded wealth with daughters, who are lovingly brought up with care and affection by parents, only to eventually go off to someone else’s household! (upabhogakAtarANAm puruShANAm arthasaMchayaparANAm; kanyAratnamiva gR^ihe tiShThantyarthAH parasyArthe: v.482)

One must also notice that while wealthy are appealed to spend towards their social responsibility throughout the wide array of shAstra-s, quoting which at length would amount to compiling several volumes, it is not the charity alone for which the wealthy are being exhorted for the welfare of society, but also simply for consumption and enjoyment of their wealth, thereby keeping money in circulation to ensure a wider and broader distribution of wealth. The circulation of money ensures the chain reaction of wealth-creation in society, as kauTilya says, wealth creates more wealth, like the roaming elephants procreate and gather more elephants (“arthair arthA prabadhyante gajAH pratigajairiva…AS9.4.27”).

chANakya does recognize that the wealthy could easily grow a tendency of hoarding their riches and not share it with the commonwealth of the society, therefore not only does he warn the King to be cautious of such hoarding capitalists and keep them under watch, but in the spirit for which kauTilya is known, also suggests some innovative ways of how the King could justly rid such ones of some of their wealth when needed. One nice contrive he suggests is not devoid of some humour, although kauTilya must have been serious prescribing it. The King might employ a spy who takes the garb of a rich merchant, or even employ a real trustworthy merchant, who shall then go to the intended business and borrow the desired sum in gold or silver or some other costly or imported merchandise, and then having procured this loan, this spy can suitably “allow himself to be robbed”, maybe at the same night!

So no wonder, another text informs the accumulators, that their wealth, unless they spend it more generously or conduct charities, will invite only the attention of crime and decay. ‘One who neither enjoys his wealth nor donates it to those worthy of it, must rest assured that his accumulation would find its way either to the houses of the thieves or eventually rot in the belly of the earth’. (saMchitaM kratuShu nopayujyate yAchitaM guNavate na dIyate; tat-kadarya-pariraKShitaM dhanaM chaurapArthiva gR^iheShu gachcHati)

One well-known snippet of wisdom differentiates between the charitable rich and the shameless accumulators, by employing the simile of clouds and ocean, and says that ‘the glory of donors always thunders from the sky like the clouds that generously give us water, while those who keep on accumulating wealth without returning, always rot at the lowest strata of rasAtala like the ocean which only knows to receive and store’. (gauravaM prApyate dAnAt na tu vittasya sa~nchayAt; sthitiH uchchaiH payodAnAM payodhInAM adhaH sthitiH)

Some of the popular aphorisms attributed to chANakya advise us likewise, that ‘while a man must learn to be content with his wife, his wealth, and his food, he should never tire in zealously conducting these other three things: learning, recitations, and more charity’. (santoShas triShu kartavyaH sva-dAre bhojane dhane, triShu chaiva na kartavyo-dhyayane-japa-dAnayo : chANakya-nIti-darpaNa 7.4)

Another one points to the right and wrong ways of picking up fields for conducting charity: ‘Feeding a man who is not hungry is as useless as clouds raining over the ocean, and donating to someone who is not needy is as useless as lighting a lamp in the daylight’. (yathA vR^iShTiH samudreShu tR^iptasya bhojanam; vR^ithA dAnam samarthasya vR^ithA dIpo divApi cha: CND5.16)

This reminds us of that famous benchmark of charity established in the bhArata, narrated by a mongoose towards the end of the ashwamedha yaj~na of the pANDava-s. The mysterious mongoose who had half of his body as golden, announced to an astonished yudhiShThira that all the donations and charities made by pANDava-s during the yaj~na for which they were proud, were useless and not equal to even one fistful of crushed barley (saktU) donated by the family of a certain brAhmaNa. He then went on to narrate a tale of how one side of his body turned golden by just witnessing the sacrifice of that family which had nothing to eat and was starving, and having found this little crushed barley after tedious effort, as they were about to eat it, a guest appeared and begged them for it, and this starving family happily decided to offer it to him. That is charity, says mongoose in the fourteenth book of bhArata, adding since then he is roaming around to see another charity of that magnitude to turn the rest of his body golden too, but not succeeding.

We are also reminded of that prayer of kabIra, a householder saint, ‘sA.I itanA dIjiye jAme kuTuma samAya, maiM bhI bhUkhA nA rahUM sAdhu a bhUkhA jAya’: (Lord grant us just enough so that my family may survive; just that much, in which we don’t sleep hungry nor a sAdhu returns hungry from our doors.)

What about the charity with black money accumulated by the corrupt businessmen? Not acceptable, says this medieval jaina text that deals solely with the regulation of donations. ‘Donating such ill-earned money is of as much benefit’, it says, ‘as the medicine to that patient who refuses to follow the restrictions of pathyApathya prescribed by his doctor!’ (yo vahyAshArjitArthassann kurvansa bahudhA vR^iShaM; doShI vA~ncHAnniva svAsthyaM bhuktvaivApathyamauShadhaM : dAnopashAsanam.179). It sternly says that like an infertile woman can not conceive, even if she goes to bed with a thousand men, auspiciousness does never arise in someone with evil methods and ill-gotten money, no matter how much charity done. (sahastra-jana-bhogepi vandhyAyAM najuto yathA…101). The same work also says that, in contrast, only the charity from the honest money earned by the noble businessmen flourishes in the aid of dharma; it never exhausts, never meets loss, nor is ever stolen, since if charity of honestly-earned money serves dharma, dharma too protects such earning and such charity. (satpuruSho-rjayati dhanaM yat sakalajaneShTa-sAdhu-vR^iddhashchaiva syAt; tasya dhanasya cha hAnirnAnupahata-dharma-bala-suguptasyaiva. 180)

The prospective receivers of charity had a right to reject the donation too, and they did reject such donations on many occasions. Comes to our mind that instance related in the ancient drama mR^ichcHakaTikA where a brAhmaNa stoutly declines the invitation to partake of a lunch and receive donation from a householder. The jaina text referred above probably explains why. That, by receiving the ill-gotten money, earned through various sins, the receiver (dvija) of such charity has to also share with the donor those sins, and is verily destroyed. (nija-pApArjitam dravyam dvijebhyo dadate nR^ipAH; tairnaShTA rAjabhirviprA dAnam doShadamuchyate. 9)

Another very important aspect which might be hard for the secularized variety to fathom is that it is the temples and the maTha-s, vihAra-s and the jinAlaya-s which were and are the trustees of the charitable commonwealth of society, and giving to them meant returning to the Lord who can then multiply it and return it back. While it is a well known knowledge and demands citing no special evidence, what is interesting is to notice that business in ancient India did more than simply financial contribution to the religious institutions – they also regulated as well as facilitated such charities, and behaved as the responsible trustees also for the small private donations as a very organized activity. We can do no better than quote Prof. R C Majumdar at some length:

“…furnished by an inscription of huvishka at mathurA, dated in the year 28 (c. 106 AD), (the prashasti) refers to an akShaya-nIvI (perpetual endowment) of 550 purANa-s each to two guilds, one of which was that of flour-makers (comment: so that this guild will now use the interest from this money for the intended charitable purpose on behalf of the donor). An inscription in a cave at nAsik, dated in the year 42 (120 AD), records the donation of 3000 kArShApaNa-s by UShavadatta, son-in-law of the shaka chief nahapAna. The gift was intended for the benefit of the Buddhist monks dwelling in the cave, and the entire sum was invested in the guilds dwelling at govardhana in the following manner: 2000 in a weavers’ guild, the rate of interest being one per cent per month, and 1000 in another weavers’ guild at the rate of 0.75 per cent per month. It is clearly stated that these kArShApaNa-s are not to be repaid, their interest only to be enjoyed.”

“An inscription at Junnar records the investment of the income of two fields with the guild at koNAchika for planting kara~nja trees and banyan trees. Another inscription at junnAr records investment of money with the guild of bamboo-workers and the guild of braziers. A third inscription at junnAr record the gift of a cave and a cistern by the guild of corn-dealers. An inscription at nagarajonikonDA, dated 333 AD refers to a permanent endowment created by a person for the maintenance of the religious establishments made by him. The endowment consisted of a deposit of 70 dInAra-s in one guild and 10 each in three other guilds, out of the interest of which specific acts had to be done. Only names of two guilds are legible, namely those of pAnika (probably sellers or growers of betel leaves) and pUvaka (confectioners).” “The Indore Copper-plate Inscription of Skanda Gupta dated in the year 146, i.e. 465 AD, records the gift of an endowment, the interest of which is to be applied to the maintenance of a lamp which has been established in a temple for the service of the Sun-God.”

“We learn from an inscription of vaillabhaTTasvAmin Temple at Gwalior, dated 933 VS, that while the merchant savviyAka, the trader ichcHuvAku and the other members of the Board of the SavviyakAs were administering the city, the whole town gave to the temple of the Nine durgA-s, a piece of land, which was its (viz., the town’s) property. Similarly it gave another piece of land, belonging to the property of the town, to the viShNu temple, and also made perpetual endowments with the guilds of oil-millers and gardeners for ensuring the daily supply of oil and garlands to the temple. This long inscription preserves an authentic testimony of a city corporation with an organised machinery to conduct its affairs. The corporation possessed landed properties of its own and could make gifts and endowments in the name of the whole town.”

“Mention is made, by name, of four chiefs of the oil-millers of shrI-sarveshwara-pura, of four chiefs of the oil-millers of shrI-vatsasvAmI-pura, and four chiefs of the oil-millers of two other places, and we are told that these together with the other (members) of the whole guild of oil-millers should give one palika of oil per oil-mill every month (to the temple). Similarly, the other endowment was to the effect that the seven chiefs, mentioned by name, and the other (members) of the whole guild of gardeners should give fifty garlands every day.”

Such was the public charity and maintenance of social wealth, through cooperative and democratic organization. Prof. Majumdar notes that, “the objects with which these endowments were made are manifold, and due performance of them must have required extra-professional skill. Thus one guild is required to plant particular trees, while several others, none of which had anything to do with medicine, were to provide it for the sick.”

Several other inscriptions, particularly and more clearly from, although not limited to, the draviDa country reinforce this view. Prof. Majumdar notes how a combination of a village pa~nchAyata, democratically elected, organized the charity in draviDa country, and used to form the very basis of the economic functioning of the villages and to the spread the benefit of the commonwealth: “An inscription of rAjArAja choLa records the gift of a sum of money by a merchant, from the interest of which the Assembly and the residents of tiruviDavandai had to supply oil to feed a perpetual lamp. Sometimes these endowments involved two-fold banking transactions. We learn from a choLa inscription that a merchant made over a sum of money to the residents of taiyUr on condition that they should pay interest in oil and paddy to the Assembly of tiruviDavandai for burning a lamp in the temple and feeding 35 Brahmanas. There are other examples, too numerous to be recorded in detail, where the South Indian records represent the Village Assemblies as public trustees or local banks.”

Temples likewise served as the repository of public wealth, and lent their money for public works in the time of its need like famine, floods or epidemic. “An inscription at ala~NguDI dated in the 6th year of rAjArAja refers to a terrible famine in the locality. The villagers had no funds to purchase paddy for their own consumption, seed grains and other necessaries for cultivation. For some reasons, the famine-stricken inhabitants could expect no help in their distress from the royal treasury. Accordingly the Assembly obtained on loan a quantity of gold and silver consisting of temple jewels and vessels from the local temple treasury. In exchange for this the members of the Village Assembly alienated 8314 velI of land in favour of the God. From the produce of this land the interest on the gold and silver received from the temple was to be paid. A Chola inscription also records that the Assembly borrowed money from temple treasury on account of “bad time” and scarcity of grains.” Yet another one informs how “the Assembly received an endowment of 100 kAsu from an individual for providing offerings in a temple and for expounding shiva-dharma in the Assembly-hall built in the temple by the same person. They utilized the sum for repairing damages caused by floods to irrigation channels.” [above quotes from Prof. R C Majumdar are from his masterpiece “Corporate Life in Ancient India”]

When the above was happening in the choLa country, a little while from now, rAjendra choLa’s friend and ally in North India, bhojadeva the paramAra would be establishing new standards of charity for merchants in his own country. The collective Hindu subconscious remembers the times of Bhoja as much for his charity, as for his valour and scholarship. It is this impression which is reflected when the jaina AchArya merutu~Nga states that two commodities were always precious and in demand in the kingdom of bhoja: Iron and Copper. Iron because of the excessive consumption by his military, and copper for the prashasti plates for donations! We might probably add the construction of temples and schools to the list. It was not the royal charity alone, but also the works performed by the merchants of his kingdom, such as in the famous bhojashAlA university, its central figure the vAgdevI of dhArAvatI was commissioned not by bhoja, but by a jaina lady named soShA hailing from a merchant family of his capital from her own money.

We can still happily notice the continuity of the same thought, to a large extent, prevailing even today among the more traditional wealthy Hindus. It comes as no surprise to learn that the donations to temples far exceed the amount spent on “charity” as claimed on the Income Tax returns. According to the Finance Ministry, the businesses filing corporate income taxes had recorded a total expenditure of about USD 2 billion during the year 2007. On the other hand the annual budget of Tirupati shrine alone, for the same year, exceeded USD 500 million: almost all of which goes to the charitable activities managed by the temple trust, besides a portion for the maintenance of the shrines. Now add to this amount the donations received by the other important Hindu shrines all over India!

For Hindu society, charity is not the only outlet of financial contribution to the society. We also hear the stories of complete financial sacrifice in the cause of the nation, such as that by the great jaina shreShThin of mewADa, whose name is permanently etched in golden letters on the rocky walls of the fort of Udaipur: Seth Bhamashah Oswal. In a few years after the battle of haldIghATI, mahArANA pratApa siMha was not left with any resources to carry on his resistance against the moghal tyrant. Disheartened, he is said to have decided to give up, just when, apparently inspired by ekali~Nga mahAdeva in a dream, patriotic ShreShThin met mahArANA and laid down at his feet all his wealth. Seth Bhamashah, the guild leader of the merchants of mewADa and mArawADa, was no small man, nor his donation a small sum. With this financial sacrifice of patriotic businessman, mahArANA reorganize his senA and proceed to launch a renewed and rejuvenated tumultuous struggle. ShreShThin went further than just donating his money, and also advised mahArANA to attack and regain first the trade routes and stifle the supply chains of the moghals in west. It is by following this advise that in less than a decade, mahArANA quickly brought the imperial control to its feet and reclaimed almost entire mewADa. Seth also led from the front, leading a regiment of mahArANA’s army, and fighting on battlefields along with an equally valiant brother of his, seTha tArAchanda oswAl.

Likewise, how can we forget the contribution of another great vaishya warrior, who a little before this time, rose to reclaim the Hindu independence in dillI by spending all his wealth on raising a senA to crush the foreigners and picking up a sword himself: himU, the son of a powerful merchant from mithilA. Moslem chroniclers use for himU the abusive epithet of ‘bakkAla’, a derogatory term for ‘shopkeeper’, alluding to his business background.

An important aspect which one notices is that the underlying principle, stressed by the traditions in the enterprise of charity, is humility. Charity was not a matter of show for the Hindu, as it is generally in the west and as the westernized Hindu corporate is now learning these days as it seems, but something which was to be done silently. shAstra-s teach one to conduct charity in such a way that while one’s right hand donates, the left does not even get the wind of it. It is these who are called the real udAra-s and dAtA-s, and it is their charity which is considered the real charity. ‘Among the hundred men born’, says this well known piece of wisdom, ‘only one is found to be brave and among thousands born only one could become a paNDita, among ten thousands born only one grows to become a good orator but truly rare and precious is the birth of such real donors, when they happen or don’t happen, knows who!’ (shateShu jAyate shUraH… dAtA bhavati vA na vA)

This reminds us of the well-known kiMvadanti about a friendly exchange between tulasIdAsa and abdur-rahIm. We know that tulasIdAsa was well-known within the circle of Akbar, with at least one copper prashasti discovered at kAshI in context of an endowment made by Todarmal which relates to his considering tulasIdAsa as his master. According to this well-known narrative, once an acquaintance of tulasIdAsa needed some money for arranging the wedding of his daughter, and asked tulasIdAsa for financial help. Todarmal who used to govern kAshI was away those days for some military campaign in North West, so tulasI sent this man, with a letter of recommendation to rahIma, the adopted son of Akbar and the symbolic head of the moghal clan, khanekhAnA, who was known to be wealthy and charitable. rahIma received the man with humility, returned him with more money than requisitioned for, and also sent a humble letter of thanks for tulasIdAsa. Hearing of rahIm’s humility, and reading the letter, tulasI replied back with a dohA, saying: “sIkhe kahAM nawAbajU denI aisI dena, jyauM jyauM kara Upara uThata tyauM tyauM nIche naina” (‘Wherefrom did our dear nawAb learn this mode of giving / Higher rise his arms in charity, lower turns his gaze in humility’). To this rahIma is said to have replied, “denahAra koi aura hai deta rahata dina-raina, loga bharama hama para dharahi tA te nIche naina” (‘The giver is someone else, who keeps giving day and night / people confuse us to be the donor, causing us the embarrassment’). At one place, rahIma himself says that, ‘we consider those not alive, who only live on alms, but we consider those even deader, from whom charity does not come’. (“rahimana te jana to muye je jana maMgahi jAya; unate pahile te muye jinate nikasata nAhi”)

We are reminded of another great mArawADI ShreShThin from va~Nga, the father of bhAratendu harishchandra, seTha harSha chandra, whose name is still taken with respect in the city of kAshI due to massive investments he made in the service of sarasvatI. bhAratendu, his son, or shall we say sarasvatI’s son, went further and practically spent all his wealth in reviving Hindu culture, especially its languages, at a time when it was most needed: setting up schools and printing presses, establishing journals and granting scholarships all over the North India, and leading the intellectual assault from the front himself.

We remember Lala Lajpat Rai, the scion of a well known wealthy family from panjAb, who decided to dedicate all his wealth in the cause of the freedom struggle. At one place we read in the memoir by the elder son of Lal Bahadur Shastri, the grateful reminiscence of the services that the legendary lAlAji silently did from his wealth for the freedom struggle. Shastriji’s son recounted here that lAlAji used to send money orders every month to those countless families whose bread winners were either languishing in British prisons or had been martyred. He also contributed in a major way towards founding of the Hindu University at kAshI.

Talking of the Hindu University of kAshI, let this be reminded that it started and continued to operate its massive infrastructure, solely on the private contribution from the wealthy Hindu businessmen and royals from across bhArata. It is only later, post-independence, that the government began contributing to it.

Yet another important institution comes to mind that was started at kAshI for the Hindu revival even before this, the kAshI nAgarI prachAriNI sabhA, which made no small contribution in inflaming that flame of Hindu revival which now seems to have been all but extinguished. Even the functioning of that sabhA was the effort of the private Hindu charity effort.

Many years back, our father used to be in the employ of the shreShThin-kulabhUShaNa GD Birla’s family for some years, and we are in intimate knowledge of how this family was and is committed to spending on public welfare, and especially for the spread and growth of dharma, much of which may not be known in public. We need not enumerate how this house is even today on the frontlines of charity, and doing so silently. We also remember the naidU shreShThI-s who founded the shAlA where we studied for a few years when living in the draviDa country. The wealthy founder of the institute had four sons, and the philosophy of this gentleman used to be to treat society as a fifth one and share the wealth among five, not four. Their attitude to philanthropy was also typical and somewhat peculiar. They used to impart Industrial Training to the needy and then finance the machine tools for them to become self-employed and be responsible for themselves.

Coming back to Beckett, we think he might be right when he said that charity was practically a competitive sport in US business. He probably had in mind the native Indians charitably pushed into the business of gambling and gaming? Or he probably meant the proposal of the State of California to make gambling legal in the state for charity purposes? Or maybe he had in mind the recent case of the State of Connecticut suing the charity founded by the NBA star Charles D. Smith, Jr. for spending away the funds collected for charity on cruise vacations, cars and beauty services!
A living proof of cristian inculturation
Hinduism came from the BIBLE! - 1
<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Aug 7 2009, 01:02 AM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Aug 7 2009, 01:02 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->A living proof of cristian inculturation
Hinduism came from the BIBLE! - 1
Even a kid will laugh at it.

THe Indian who has not seen jerusalam and other so called biblical area does not even understand the history and trying to teach religion in India.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Catching Prawns in India - Ray Mears Extreme Survival - BBC

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Uses for a Palm Tree - Ray Mears World of Survival - BBC

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>China's Rare River Dolphin Now Extinct, Experts Announce</b>

The rare Chinese river dolphin has gone extinct, according to scientists who could not find a single one of the animals during a six-week search on China's Yangtze River.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Sir, You have indeed expressed some noble thoughts. But what concerns me is that we are being slightly hypocritical when we call an illegal but obscene display of modern day lethal weapons on a school premises and merrily give it the name of a religious ceremony as "Shushter Puja". Whereas, in fact, it is only an effort, through the back door to start some kind of vigilante' groups and that too in the BJP ruled states where we are already quite secure.and where our target enemy does not have much chance to fight back. So it will be seen as an act of intimidation for whatever it is worth.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am somewhat surprised at your inability to understand the elementary truth.

Vigilante groups are and can be organised only with ILLEGAL weapons - never, never with licensed arms. For instance, northeast has a number of militant groups, like ULFA and Bodoland Freedom groups, including some Muslim militant outfits (e.g., MULTA, Muslim Tiger Force, Muslim Defence Force, United Muslim Front of Assam, ILAA, and several others). Most of these are comparable to what you call 'vigilante groups' and all of them are equipped with illegal arms including AK-47s and even medium size mortars.

Your objection to shastra puja of licensed weapons is laughable. Do you know that India has a very large number of unlicensed weapons (mostly held by militant Islamic outfits and Naxal-Maoist groups) ? You are not bothered about lakhs of illegal arms held by jihadis and Maoists, but are vainly focussed on Hindus keeping 'licensed' weapons and worshipping them!

You must read more, especially study Huntington's book and essays on clash of civilisations (already enveloping India) to understand that worldwide Muslim community and Muslim societies hold the largest number of weapons (i.e., hand-held ams) - mostly unlicensed. The same is true of India. Most lohars (iron-smiths) are Muslims and they are the ones adept at forging illegal weapons - though there are several Hindus also doing that shady business.

Huntington has demonstrated through analysis of data that Muslims are easily the most violence-oriented community in the world.

Guess why US troops find it difficult to succeed in Iraq and Afghanistan ? One most important reason is that the general population is heavily armed. Every house has multiple types of automatic weapons, every citizen is armed. And they offer massive resistance to American soldiers.

In the coming decades, Hindus might also find it difficult to survive (even in the growing incidence of riots) if they remain doped by the pacifist dogma - especially in the light of the mindset which you and your friends have acquired. Hindus must learn the art and strategy of defending themselves and their motherland in this vicious world.

Dear youngman, you must also read history far more thoroughly. The first thing which Muslim invaders did was to disarm Hindus and downgrade their valour quotient. In 1695 Aurangzeb issued a written firman commanding that no Hindu shall keep or carry any arm (though exmpted weapon-worshipping Rajputs on sanguine advice of some vazirs). Then barely 4 years after issuing of that Firman, in the year 1699 Guru Gobind Singh commanded every Sikh to keep a Kripan (sword) at the time of forming 'Khalsa". He openly defied the Mughal Emperor's Firman. The result was electrifying. Within decades the sword wielding Khalsa storm troopers of Ranjit Singh, led by Hari Singh Nalwa and Sham Singh Atariwala thrashed and trounced the oppressive Mughals, chased their troops right into Afghanistan making Shah Shuja sue for peace. The Afghan king, defeated by armed Sikhs, agreed to pay an annual tribute, ban cow slaughter and surrendered the plundered gates of Somnath temple to the Sikh warriors. Hari Singh Nalwa still strikes fearsome awe in Afghan hearts. Why ?

Such indeed is the splendid history of wearing arms and worshipping arms.

Best wishes
Ram rkohri@ .org
The idiot is still stuck in nodding his head to what the Indian gov't defines as "legal" quite arbitrarily.

So what if it is "illegal", i commend any Hindu who is armed whether legally or illegally, the idiot gov't has no right to take away anyones right to be armed as long as they are not criminals.

The question to be asked is, was disarming the population the norm in pre British & pre Islamic India, the answer is an emphatic no. In traditional Hindu society the right of people to be armed was recognized, it was only after the invaders established themselves that efforts got underway to disarm the population so prevent any threat of rebellion, the Muslim rulers did not have much success in this as vast tracts of rural areas were only nominally under their control, it was the British who successfully disarmed the common man & this was continued by the new brown sahib gov't.

I never got the incessant Hindu whining that Muslims have "illegal" arms, well good for them at least they know that such crappy laws don't deserve to be obeyed instead of Hindu sheep who think every unreasnonable law passed by the Indian gov't is equivalent to a lakshmana rekha. Of course ideally BJP would have repealed such archaic colonial inspired laws but since they are useless, i wish all Hindus to arm themselves regardless of what the unjust laws say.
Well, most Hindus as you already know Bhv, are just really shameless. That is why you regularly hear them spouting bs about being law abhydheeng and being modhul chitizinz. There could exist law that is the severest insult to Hindu dignity, and they would still sing about being law abydheeng chitizinz as opposed to those sullas who keep illegal weapons regardless of what dumb ass law the turdburglars of the Indian govt pass.

That disgraceful loser that Bodhi quoted probably worships his lupthup kumputher on shastra puja.
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Aug 29 2009, 02:14 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Aug 29 2009, 02:14 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>China's Rare River Dolphin Now Extinct, Experts Announce</b>

The rare Chinese river dolphin has gone extinct, according to scientists who could not find a single one of the animals during a six-week search on China's Yangtze River.
too much swiming in cyanide

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