Post 3/ - Trishiras vs Orochi - part 1
Don't know much about Indra vs Trishiras-Vishvaroopa, son of tvaShTaa either. And can't find out from the MW dictionary that he is a serpent/dragon or any kind of "monster" as wacky's Orochi page said Trishiras was. That he's got 3 heads is apparent (which does not imply he's a "monster", e.g. Dattatreya etc have 3 heads). Even checked the Wacky page and it doesn't have him as a dragon or serpent, it just says he used one head for eating, one for observing the world/watching, and one for reciting the Vedam. (To pre-emptively deny any encroachment: he does not in any way represent oppressed dravoodianism/ur-Shramanisms, since he's a Vedic being, of the Vedic cosmos onlee.) But I suppose since vRitra is the younger brother of [color="#0000FF"](EDIT stupid typo: not TvaShTaa but)[/color] Trishiras, perhaps he [Trishiras] looked the same [serpent-like]?
Ah, it seems the wife of TvaShTa and mother of Trishiras was an asurI. Since Rahu/Ketu sprung from an asurI too and look serpentine, and since Diti's babies looked serpentine, maybe that implies Trishiras looked serpentine after all?
ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/sep98/0069.html
About that last para:
Wish Hindoos would be equally vigorously adamant in preventing aliens - who are worse than asuras ever were - from terrorising the Vedas. Oh, and wish that Hindus would suitably deal with all traitors who teach=sell the Vedas to aliens. Don't know why apaswaram is still [rightly] regarded a crime in our time but not teaching the - as the Chinese used to call the west - "foreign devils". (I am certain half - if not all - the problems Hindus suffer is in sinister consequence from having enabled aliens access to the Vedam (and other Hindu mantra and ritual texts and other Hindu stuffs). Yes, aliens stole these things half the time and so weren't always gifted it on a platter, but then why oh why did Hindus ever write it down. Could have known it would fall into the wrong hands some day. Ugh.)
[Side note: The Chinese have a tonal language - 4 tones (it's more vocal inflections than swara-tones, btw; I hear the Vietnamese have 6 tones). The meaning can drastically change if you get the "tone" for a word wrong (the word maa IIRC has 4 meanings, one of which is mother and another is horse? "My horse told me to do my homework...") Some Chinese people don't want aliens pronouncing their names at all, because their experience is that all aliens do is mispronounce their names (as these names often don't have an inflection that western people naturally make for the word, despite the word looking deceptively easy to pronounce on paper) and thereby turn a name with a sacred and/or beautiful meaning into something with an evil or profane meaning: I remember one person - understandably - got *really* angry about this and insisted that people only use his assumed western name and never, never dare call him by his private Chinese name ever again.]
And here's something relevant to my own speculations involving Indra vs Vritra as an example of the more general case of giant serpents and weather/water control seen in various forms all over the world:
advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2002-October/003944.html
The above does sound more like what I theorised in general about weather controlling Longs/serpents than the "melting Ice motif" which I see is what aliens favour for Vritra (perhaps because it allowed arguing some arctic homeland/urheimat).
- In tropical cases the problem could more often be drought; and monsoon seems to cover much of India.
- In China and Japan etc the more frequent problems seem less to be drought than it is flooding from *local* rivers (or even surrounding seas in the case of Nezha), which could explain the local phenomena of River Serpents or Dragons needing restraining or subduing by Chinese and Japanese Gods. And the post (#441) on the Japanese Orochi somewhere above already contained quoteblocks explaining that the "anatomy" of the Orochi fit the earthly Japanese river system that became the Hii river (a.o.t. an atmospheric and wide-reaching storm as in Indra vs Vritra case). Why people should insinuate PIE into Susanowo vs Orochi is beyond me, especially when this too is seen elsewhere.
[Although it should also be noted they only chose to insinuate Indra vs Trishiras, not Vritra. All because of the number of heads and sake. Haven't yet come across anything like a water/drought threat about Trishiras. Beyond Trishiras having 3 heads - which is still not the same as Orochi's 8 heads and 8 tails - and the luring of the Orochi's 8 heads to the 8 different gates by means of sake to capture each head while intoxicating it and then slaying it individually - which gets compared to Indra using soma/wine/food on Trishiras (although, luring giant [magical] snakes with food or anything is seen elsewhere) - beyond these 2 superficial points, I don't see much similarity between Susanowo vs Orochi and Indra vs Trishiras. And those are the only two points they provided to insinuate PIE "must have" influenced Orochi.]
- What about the fact that Orochi does not *come across* as learned, or even very bright. No one seems to talk to it; perhaps it can't speak. In any case, it is simply *lured* to the sake, that's all we know. Meanwhile, Trishiras is very learned, even a "preceptor" of the Devas for a time.
- Orochi's literal crime is eating up 7 of the Earthly Kamis' 8 daughters and wanting to eat up the last. Trishiras' (literal) crime is treachery despite having taken on the responsibility as devamantrI: he performed the yagnya requesting victory for the asuras also, thereby keeping the Devas stuck fighting the Asuras.
Again, important and relevant difference.
(The biggest difference between the two in next post)
Don't know much about Indra vs Trishiras-Vishvaroopa, son of tvaShTaa either. And can't find out from the MW dictionary that he is a serpent/dragon or any kind of "monster" as wacky's Orochi page said Trishiras was. That he's got 3 heads is apparent (which does not imply he's a "monster", e.g. Dattatreya etc have 3 heads). Even checked the Wacky page and it doesn't have him as a dragon or serpent, it just says he used one head for eating, one for observing the world/watching, and one for reciting the Vedam. (To pre-emptively deny any encroachment: he does not in any way represent oppressed dravoodianism/ur-Shramanisms, since he's a Vedic being, of the Vedic cosmos onlee.) But I suppose since vRitra is the younger brother of [color="#0000FF"](EDIT stupid typo: not TvaShTaa but)[/color] Trishiras, perhaps he [Trishiras] looked the same [serpent-like]?
Ah, it seems the wife of TvaShTa and mother of Trishiras was an asurI. Since Rahu/Ketu sprung from an asurI too and look serpentine, and since Diti's babies looked serpentine, maybe that implies Trishiras looked serpentine after all?
ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/sep98/0069.html
Quote:As far as this non-swara business of Veda-adhyayana goes:
No!! Patanjali's statement is proof of this
alpaksharaha swaratho varNatho vaa mithyaaprayukto nathamarthamaahaha sa vaak vajro yajamaanam hinasti yathendra shatru swarathOparaadhaat.
The Veda gives the illustration of this - it is also in the PuraaNa and Patanjali states this.
Twaashtha wanted a Son to avenge the death of Trishira - his Son whom Indra adopted as a preceptor in the time Brihaspathi had left him due to the disrespect Indra had shown toward his Acharya. Indra found that Trishira had an Asura Mother and when he offered oblations into the Sacred Agni for the victory of the Devas, he also uttered the mantras for the victory of the Asuras with his other mouth ( he had 3 ) - consequently the wars were stalemated. Indra in his anger killed Trishira with his Vajram and incurred Twaashtha's wrath. The mantra which Twaashtha chanted had the words "Indra shatru" in it. In this the Indra was to chanted with anudhaatam and the shatru with swaritam. Twaashtha made the mistake of chanting the word Indra with swaritam and the Shatru with anudhaatam - he consequently got a Son - Vritra - not one who would kill Indra - but one who would be killed by Indra. The meaning changed due to the incorrect swara and hence the term "Yajamaanam hinasti".
There are many out there who claim that we can have our will with the Veda. With due respect these are people who have done no adhyayanam in a paathashaala or those who have had no formal teaching of the Veda from one who has learned it from someone educated in a paathashaala. These are in my view the paathakaadhamaas. I will not give serious credibility to this view. Sri Paramaachaarya is vehement in his stand on the correct intonation of the Veda as well as uchchaaraNam. In my life, I have seen several people who said things like this - and I have argued with them. Without Swara the Veda is not only meaningless - worse it has vipariita artham (contrary meaning). It is tantamount to chanting everything in one tone - swara - whatever you call it. Hence, wrong. Just as you cannot live without working, you cannot speak without intonation of any kind. Whatever you say - however you say it, by default has a swara - so there cannot be any non-swara chanting of anything - leave alone the Veda - there can only be apaswara chanting.
About that last para:
Wish Hindoos would be equally vigorously adamant in preventing aliens - who are worse than asuras ever were - from terrorising the Vedas. Oh, and wish that Hindus would suitably deal with all traitors who teach=sell the Vedas to aliens. Don't know why apaswaram is still [rightly] regarded a crime in our time but not teaching the - as the Chinese used to call the west - "foreign devils". (I am certain half - if not all - the problems Hindus suffer is in sinister consequence from having enabled aliens access to the Vedam (and other Hindu mantra and ritual texts and other Hindu stuffs). Yes, aliens stole these things half the time and so weren't always gifted it on a platter, but then why oh why did Hindus ever write it down. Could have known it would fall into the wrong hands some day. Ugh.)
[Side note: The Chinese have a tonal language - 4 tones (it's more vocal inflections than swara-tones, btw; I hear the Vietnamese have 6 tones). The meaning can drastically change if you get the "tone" for a word wrong (the word maa IIRC has 4 meanings, one of which is mother and another is horse? "My horse told me to do my homework...") Some Chinese people don't want aliens pronouncing their names at all, because their experience is that all aliens do is mispronounce their names (as these names often don't have an inflection that western people naturally make for the word, despite the word looking deceptively easy to pronounce on paper) and thereby turn a name with a sacred and/or beautiful meaning into something with an evil or profane meaning: I remember one person - understandably - got *really* angry about this and insisted that people only use his assumed western name and never, never dare call him by his private Chinese name ever again.]
And here's something relevant to my own speculations involving Indra vs Vritra as an example of the more general case of giant serpents and weather/water control seen in various forms all over the world:
advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2002-October/003944.html
Quote:The stories in the shastras can be interpreted on many levels one (but by no means the only) is a natural one. I think a more plausible theory than the Ice age one is this is a depiction of the monsoon. Every year in India the terrible heat of summer parches the land. People wait in hope for the storms of monsoon which are not without danger and violence themselves but when they pass the earth is once again fertile. Vrtra symbolises drought. Note the frequent mentions of him "drinking up" the waters and hiding the within himself. Indra is Parjanya, the rain-bringer. His weapon is thunder. He is accompanied by the Maruts or storm-winds. Like the monsoon, His behavior is somewhat erratic but ultimately beneficial to mankind. This is not a one-time event but a yearly one. (Indra has altogether slain 100 Vrtras. 100 is the ideal lifespan.) Every year Vrtra hides the waters and Indra slays him releasing them again. According to the learned author of my Gujarati translation of the Bhagavata, Shayanacharya also mentions this explanation which is a big point in its favor in my opinion.
The above does sound more like what I theorised in general about weather controlling Longs/serpents than the "melting Ice motif" which I see is what aliens favour for Vritra (perhaps because it allowed arguing some arctic homeland/urheimat).
- In tropical cases the problem could more often be drought; and monsoon seems to cover much of India.
- In China and Japan etc the more frequent problems seem less to be drought than it is flooding from *local* rivers (or even surrounding seas in the case of Nezha), which could explain the local phenomena of River Serpents or Dragons needing restraining or subduing by Chinese and Japanese Gods. And the post (#441) on the Japanese Orochi somewhere above already contained quoteblocks explaining that the "anatomy" of the Orochi fit the earthly Japanese river system that became the Hii river (a.o.t. an atmospheric and wide-reaching storm as in Indra vs Vritra case). Why people should insinuate PIE into Susanowo vs Orochi is beyond me, especially when this too is seen elsewhere.
[Although it should also be noted they only chose to insinuate Indra vs Trishiras, not Vritra. All because of the number of heads and sake. Haven't yet come across anything like a water/drought threat about Trishiras. Beyond Trishiras having 3 heads - which is still not the same as Orochi's 8 heads and 8 tails - and the luring of the Orochi's 8 heads to the 8 different gates by means of sake to capture each head while intoxicating it and then slaying it individually - which gets compared to Indra using soma/wine/food on Trishiras (although, luring giant [magical] snakes with food or anything is seen elsewhere) - beyond these 2 superficial points, I don't see much similarity between Susanowo vs Orochi and Indra vs Trishiras. And those are the only two points they provided to insinuate PIE "must have" influenced Orochi.]
- What about the fact that Orochi does not *come across* as learned, or even very bright. No one seems to talk to it; perhaps it can't speak. In any case, it is simply *lured* to the sake, that's all we know. Meanwhile, Trishiras is very learned, even a "preceptor" of the Devas for a time.
- Orochi's literal crime is eating up 7 of the Earthly Kamis' 8 daughters and wanting to eat up the last. Trishiras' (literal) crime is treachery despite having taken on the responsibility as devamantrI: he performed the yagnya requesting victory for the asuras also, thereby keeping the Devas stuck fighting the Asuras.
Again, important and relevant difference.
(The biggest difference between the two in next post)