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Religion, Caste And Tribe Based Reservation - 3

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Religion, Caste And Tribe Based Reservation - 3
#41
<!--QuoteBegin-utepian+May 24 2006, 11:37 AM-->QUOTE(utepian @ May 24 2006, 11:37 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think reservation will future divide India<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Subhash Kak envisions the next partition of India.
[right][snapback]51672[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ironically it will be caste itself that will prevent that physical partition. But partition the society it will. And will perhaps solidify the caste-system in a modern context.
#42
<img src='http://i.today.reuters.com/pictures/galleries/newspictures/2006-05-24T132634Z_01_KOL07D_RTRIDSP_2_INDIA.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->A child walks in the shadows of medical students as they block a road during a protest in the eastern Indian city of Kolkata May 24, 2006. India's ruling coalition has decided to set aside half the seats in centrally funded colleges for lower-caste candidates from next year, despite widespread protests by upper-caste students and doctors. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Excellent Psy-Ops. From REUTERS.

Sometimes I think, is India even worth fighting for?

Congress Party Chullu Bhar Pani main Doob kyon nahin Jati? Bare Galeez Log Hain.
#43
<b>Reservations: the shortcut to nowhere</b>
<i>Move from sharing a declining pie to increasing the pie’s size and to accountability for services</i>
<b> Reservation is a destructive and illusory short-cut to a deep problem
• Instead, try a strategy based on competitive good governance in delivery
• This ensures a focus on performance, output and outcomes in a real sense</b>

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->A shift to a strategy based on competitive good governance in the delivery of education would imply:
(i) doubling the Budget allocation for education overall in the next three years to reach the desired level of about 6% of GDP, without which India will simply not be a player in the emerging global knowledge economy
(ii) designing clear and enforceable evaluation criteria to be used for disbursement of these resources
(iii) making district administrations and local governments responsible and accountable for the effective and honest delivery of education services at all levels
(iv) enforcing with the help of civil society institutions the provision of compulsory education for all children until the age of 15, with each MLA and MP held responsible for ensuring not a single child is seen in a workplace or on the streets
(v) strengthening the mid-day meal scheme and expanding residential facilities in government schools to benefit a much larger number of lower caste and poor children
(vi) increasing the number of scholarships for these children to go to private schools and benefit, as I did when I got a scholarship to go to one
(vii) improving the salaries and social status of teachers and academics at all levels, so that the sector attracts the best and is not a choice of last resort, and
(viii) devoting the necessary resources and attention to educating all the mothers in India, because, as the Economic Survey of 1992-93 put it, “Educated mothers are likely to invest more in to the education of their children and hence to have fewer children.” (p.16)
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#44
There are some many political parties fighting for OBC and Dalit votes. Congress will lose big time with upper caste votes, in case these lazy upper caste citizen cast thier votes.

In UP Congress is lost case. Punjab they will lose. I am not sure where they will gain.
#45
<b>IITs, IIMs clueless about how to add more seats in time</b>?<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Consider this: at present, IITBombay inducts about 570 students in undergraduate programmes annually. With the new quota — and the government stipulating that the non-reserved category remains unaffected — <b>the intake will have to go up by at least 55% to approximately 875, including 235 OBC seats.</b>

<b>The total number of undergraduates on campus will go up by 1,200</b>. Such a huge addition means that both IIMs and IITs will need to expand infrastructure and faculty manifold, and quickly, a Herculean task as all these institutions are already grappling with serious faculty shortages and infrastructure issues.

<b>An IIM director said: "The physical infrastructure required — hostels, classrooms and the like — can be built up over time, but the shortage of faculty poses severe constraints</b>.

<b>IIM-A has 82 professors and needs 18 more. IIM-C needs 25 professors to its base of 65. At the IITs, the situation is worse. </b>

<b>IIT-B currently has about 400 professors but needs 150 more, while IIT-Kharagpur needs to add 187 to its 480 professors. </b>

"You can imagine the pressure each faculty member will have to take on to ensure that the increased numbers of students are being taught properly," said a senior faculty member at IIT Kharagpur.

Added an IIM-B professor: <b>"Even if the government pumps in huge sums of money, it won't help. Faculty doesn't grow on trees, and given the non-competitive salary structure, I doubt if they'll come." </b>

He estimates that only 20% of those who complete their doctoral programmes actually take to academia. What's worse is the June 2007 deadline.

Says an IIM professor: "The problem is that faculty supply is limited and all these institutions will simultaneously try to recruit more faculty to make it to the June 2007 deadline."
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#46
http://us.rediff.com/news/2006/may/25spec1...?q=tp&file=.htm

I didnt have (perhaps still dont) the maturity and thought processes that these kids have while being in the 6th semester. Bhagwan kare all kids in Bharat are like this..

These kids have setup a blog - check it out.

http://youthforequality.blogspot.com/
http://www.youth4equality.org/

From the above rediff interview..

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Vishal: As part of the delegation I have met (Union ministers) Oscar Fernandes, P Chidambaram and Pranab Mukherjee. My colleagues have met Arjun Singh in early April.
It was not a very good meeting. <b>Arjun Singh was not ready to discuss the issue at all. He told us we should postpone the agitation because the assembly election was on. </b>After the election he said publicly that the decision on reservation was not reversible.

That ten minute meeting was not a meeting at all. The media was present, we were there and he was sitting opposite us. He said something that meant nothing. When we meet deans, bureaucrats or seniors, they are open and talk about what all is possible. But politicians are tied up. They never open their hearts.

After meeting so many of them I agree with what people generally say that politicians are heartless people. It is not that they lack arguments but they are stubborn people. They call us anti-reservationists and say we are not ready to think about other people but unfortunately politicians are not ready to think about us.

Mr Chidambaram said personally he would agree with our 'Creamy Layerwala funda' (rich and powerful amongst the backward castes) but then he said MGR (the late chief minister M G Ramachandran) in Tamil Nadu thought about the creamy layer issue for one year but could not arrive at how to define the creamy layer!

Yes, we do think it is not easy to define the creamy layer, although we keep talking about it. <b>Chidambaram said South India has prospered with 70 per cent reservation and this reservation have been there for more than 80 years.</b>

<b>So I asked him: 'Sir, if it has there for long, why are you continuing with it because by this time society must have been uplifted?'</b> He just said let the Tamil parties and assembly decide how to go on.

Pranab Mukherjee didn't talk much when we met him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't try to put the tag of anti-quotawallahs on us. If I, as a poor student, need money, books, clothes and infrastructure to study further why is the government not coming forward? Why have quota on basis of caste? Why?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

#47
From the comment section of Y4E blog..

http://cgi.ebay.in/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?View...9523596272

Young Indian Brain on SALE
#48
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>"DUSSHERA" being celebrated...all are cordially invited</b>
link
Friday, May 26, 2006 : University College of Medical Sciences (UCMS) and GTB Hospital, Dilshad Garden, is organising Dusshera, on 26th MAY, in anticipation that someday, we shall overcome the devious designs of today's demon kings---our politicians....

30 feet tall effigies of 3 reservation demons - V.P. Singh , Arjun Singh, ManMohan Singh, will be lit.

The 5 medical colleges along with their RDAs are expected to come.

<b>All are cordially invited for this peaceful event at GTB Hospital Complex grounds, on 26th May, 6.20 pm..</b> <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

They should add Sarupnakha (Sonia) also.
#49
Just remembered this interview from M K Narayanan a few months ago..

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2005/oct/19intera.htm

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>What are the issues that we can't manage?</b>

Rising expectations. Everyone wants more of the cake.

I am just taking a small issue: The Supreme Court has struck down the minority status (of educational institutions). It can snowball into a major issue. Because people will see it as a striking down of educational opportunity. This is a very small area, higher education. But this is true of so many other matters.

When we talk sitting here, it is simple, but when you go down you can see how people are so much more aware of what is what. There is no degree of passivity today.

<b>Especially in a city like Mumbai.</b>

<b>Not only Mumbai, but if you go down to the villages in Tamil Nad or Kerala -- I am not very familiar with the Hindi heartland -- the concern is that I am not getting what I am supposed to.</b>

When farmers commit suicide -- it is not as if this is the first time that things have been so bad. But people see that others are doing so much better than us and we are not getting our share. You are saying we say we are prospering, we have 8 per cent growth, I am not getting that share.

The reason why the bulk of forward castes in India decided to migrate to the United States -- the best thing that they did I suppose, since they helped us in the long run -- is based on this. We must have an outlet. Can you provide the outlet? I think that is a fundamental issue.

Then various movements -- Left wing extremism, for instance. The peripheral areas. How are you going to integrate the Northeast and others into the mainstream of India? These are socio-economic, socio-philosophical issues, there are so many issues.

Are the Nagas, for instance, an integral part of India? If you speak to Muivah or the Meteis or the Bodos, everybody is talking in terms of identities and separate homelands.

Finally, the biggest thing is what is the strength of the Centre. Everyone talks of more federalism, but the Centre is important. You cannot have a weak Centre.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#50
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason why the bulk of forward castes in India decided to migrate to the United States -- the best thing that they did I suppose, . <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best thing I did, no regret at all.
#51
Mudy

I found the foll things very interesting in this statement.

1. There is an implicit agreement within babudom that the best way out for 'forward' castes is to migrate somewhere else.
2. There is an implicit understanding within GoI circles that its only good that the 'forward' castes are going away - IOW if you can do it good, if you cant too bad. (Similar to that brahmin-hater Pathma's logic) This really rubbishes the argument of GoI funded IIT/IIM students migrating abroad as a bad thing (brain drain, cost to exchequer etc).
3. In a way the current proposals to increase the reservation quota is strengthening the above viewpoints in one sense and also restricting the 'forward' castes from moving abroad.
4. "Managing rising expectations" is being reconised as a big threat. As a corollary, "rising expectations" is being recognised as an opportunity by anti-national forces like AS/MMS/SG.

----------

Its been a while since I readup on gametheory but this one is a difficult one to address. The situation where new identities are being made each day and where everybody is being made to feel that one is not getting enough as one should. I think Ram had a thread on persecution complex or something that addressed this.

More later.
#52
Some urls on this issue:
SaveIndiaBrand

'Let us have quota, but let not caste be the criteria'Mohammad Armaan Qamar and Dr Vishal Sharma, University College of Medical Sciences, New Delhi

Anti-Reservations Blogroll
#53
Congress party was formed by Occupied India's Elites. These people were either ruler or with money. They changed according to situation. Current policy is same, use people to stay in power and with new wealth. VP Singh, Arjun Singh, Natwar Singh, DigVijay Singh, Nehru-Gandhi are all from exploiter class. They are using same strategy what their elders used to do, create conflict and rule and generate false goodwill from gullible subjects.
Nothing had changed, same player, same music and same victim.
#54
<img src='http://im.rediff.com/news/2006/may/24sonia.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Image: Effigies representing Congress chief Sonia Gandhi keeping Prime Minister Manmohan Singh (right) and Human Resources Development Minister Arjun Singh on a leash, outside the All India Institute of Medical Sciences AIIMS in New Delhi.


http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/may/24look1.htm

#55
Gosh!! dalmations are such a nice breed, why medicos are insulting such a nice breed?
#56
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Some reservations about quota
Balbir K. Punj
http://www.asianage.com/
May 25, 2006

Pursuant upon the Union Cabinet’s decision to implement 27% reservation for OBCs in educational institutes, the medical fraternity has threatened to launch a civil disobedience movement. A civil unrest is in the offing. When Rajiv Goswami, the poster boy of the anti-Mandal agitation of 1990, passed away in February 2004, India Inc. took little notice. India’s economy and image have come of age in these 14 years, <b>making the concept of reservation sound antediluvian. In the IT-era, bristling with BPOs, KPOs and biotech industries, the anti-Mandal agitation seemed an anecdote from the Paleolithic era.</b> But suddenly the bogey of reservation is back with a vengeance, in AIIMS, IIMs, IITs, private educational institutes, and corporate India. Hence, I could spot an anti-reservation girl holding up a placard saying, "Arjun Singh wants another Rajiv Goswami."

The Cabinet’s decision on 27% quota is unilateral, rather than unanimous. It rides roughshod over every technical or expert opinion, whether of the Knowledge Commission or of the Delhi University VC, IIT professors or doctors. Apart from disabling the "forward" section of society, it is a convenient way to fool the OBCs with tokenism. Since the government lacks the vision, enterprise and willpower to really uplift the SCs, STs and OBCs, it can always cite a grand total of 50% reservation as a red-herring. What further exposes the perfunctory nature of this Cabinet decision is <b>Arjun Singh’s refusal to reduce fees for OBC students. So its potential beneficiaries will be the creamy section only. </b>

The 93rd amendment to the Indian Constitution, which came into force on January 20, 2006, empowering the government to implement reservations in government or government aided and unaided educational institutions is an "enabling provision." Why is it that implementing the Directive Principles, like education for all, is not a priority, but 93rd amendment is? Article 16(4) of the Indian Constitution enables the state for "reservation of appointments or posts in favour of any backward class of citizens which, in the opinion of the state, is not adequately represented in the services under the state." Thus backwardness, as far as reservation is concerned, is a function of representation in power-sharing, bureaucracy, and educational institutes, and not affluence per se.

OBCs need to be uplifted. <b>But how did you arrive at the magic figure that there are 52% OBCs in the country?</b> Not through the Census of India (since 1931 caste figures had not been enumerated), <b>but through a sample survey done by the Mandal Commission which covered only .2% of India’s population. Were the forward castes of India represented in that commission? No. </b>

The medico stir ­ the anti-reservation agitation by medical students ­ has held the high moral ground. In 1990, the agitators were calling SCs, STs and OBCs names, attempting self-immolation, destroying public property like buses. <b>But this time the agitating students have shown their determination with remarkable dignity. They are emphasising upon social harmony ("Brahmin ho ya, OBC, sab ek hai…"), observing indefinite hunger-strikes, and undertaking candlelight processions. Irrespective of how the deadlock ends, they have already scored a moral victory.</b>

Can the irony get greater than this? We were told, all through the Congress era, that casteism is the ultimate social evil of Hindu society. It is a blotch on the image of India, and must be done away with. Article 15 of the Indian Constitution prohibits discrimination on the basis of religion, race, sex, or place of birth. Article 17 abolished "untouchability" and made its practice punishable under law. <b>Unlike in the US, where one bloc of states turned against another bloc with weapons on the question of abolition of slavery by Abraham Lincoln, Articles 15 and 17 were welcomed by one and all in India. </b>

Govind Ballabh Pant, Nehru’s home minister, rejected the Backward Classes Commission’s (Kaka Kelkar Commission) report in 1953 on the ground that under <b>socialism the issue of development will be addressed for the nation as a whole, and all "social and other distinctions" will disappear.</b> But today, caste, which could have been a personal and private matter if left alone, is being bolstered in public and professional lives by the same party. <b>In the process, it is creating a new untouchability, resurrecting a new division in Hindu society</b>, which militates against the spirit of the Constitution. The government has decided to appoint an implementation committee for OBC reservations. <b>But why is the government reluctant about a stock-taking of how the reservation policy has worked in the last 50 years? Here are the official statistics for seats of SCs, STs lying vacant in educational institutes: 6,000 in Himachal Pradesh; 1,000 in Haryana; 41,543 in Rajasthan; 11,500 in Madhya Pradesh and 12,549 in Tamil Nadu. Perhaps this also means keeping these many "general category" students forcibly uneducated, who are otherwise willing.</b>

The UPA government has dismissed nearly 100 Central government employees, recruited since 1995, in the last six months. These employees had got a job through fake or forged SC/ST certificates. CNN-IBN recently covered the story (Man exposes fake certificate scam, May 16). At around the same time it sent a special investigative team to Amritsar where it could purchase a fake OBC/SC/ST certificate for Rs 1,000 each (Bogus OBC certificates for Rs 1,000, May 15). Documents available with CNN-IBN show that 30% of nearly 30,000 documents examined by the CBI in relation to the "caste certificate scam" are fake or forged. The imposition of OBC quota certainly promises boom time for racketeers.

There can be no two opinions that the marginalised and disadvantageous sections of society must be uplifted. But is reservation the solution to achieve that end or is it a red-herring? This is simply a demand and supply problem. The seats available in institutions are peanuts compared to the number of applicants. In some places the ratio could be 1:1,000. Today competitive examinations have become elimination tests. A further reduction in seats is bound to psychologically jolt the serious aspirants. <b>A misimpression is being created that upper caste Hindus, driven by caste-prejudice, are trying to block off the backward sections of society from rising, and sacrosanct "merit" is being used as a ruse. </b>

It is the government that has laid down a system based on competitive examinations, where candidates on the top end of the merit list are chosen to fill the vacancies. Now, suddenly to make "merit" a dirty word is to argue against the very system of competitive exams laid down by the government. Besides, no seat in an examination is marked "reserved for general category candidates"; the unreserved seats are open to all, including OBCs. There is no prejudice against capable Dalits, as there is no bias in favour of incapable Brahmins.

<b>What strikes me, as a citizen, is the shabby treatment that Arjun Singh and the Congress brass have given the doctors and prospective doctors ­ the assets for any society.</b> They expect to be treated by the best doctors, where caste, creed and language do not have any role. Being a surgeon, like being a fighter pilot, is not the same as being a professor of sociology or history. You are literally dealing with a life and death issue. Doctors by themselves are a minority in society.

In India, one caste may consider itself as superior to others, but no caste deems itself inferior to others. Every caste is proud of itself, and caste fidelities could act as effective social capital. Castes like Nadar in South India, by collective will and enterprise, have become wealthy, educated and politically influential. But Brahmins in some parts of India have fallen into a morass for lack of constructive networking. <b>The reservation bill is a heavy one that Indian society will have to foot. This can only gladden the jihadis who would like Hindu society to be Balkanised.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#57
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Bandh hits markets, hospitals </b>
Pioneer.com
Veena Sunderam | New Delhi
The setback following the Government's decision to implement the quota has not dampened the spirits of the medicos. The nationwide bandh call on Thursday was a major success across the capital. With all Government hospitals along with a few private ones observing the strike, life in the capital came to a standstill.

Joining the doctors were also the All-India Traders Association, who downed the shutters in almost all major markets in the capital.

"We have come all the way from Muradabad to participate in the strike just because we feel and are worried about our country. Our country rests on the youth and Arjun Singh is doing nothing but dividing the youth. Jab SC/ST students hi nahi chahtehain yeh reservation to government kyon dena chahti hai," remarked Swati Bhatia of ITS Paramedical College in Muradabad. The students feel that the day is not far when being under the General category would be a matter of humiliation. "If things go on like this we would very soon start hiding that we belong to the general category," added Bhatia.

The strike as announced by the Indian Medical Association got a wide support from all corners. Directorate of Health Services under which 14 hospital of the capital come also announced an indefinite strike. "The hospitals are closed. The OPD and the emergency facility of these hospitals has been shut for the day but resident doctors would continue the strike," said Resident Doctor Dr Sujeet. Delhi Medical Association also joined the bandh on Thursday.
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#58
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>No one asked me before deciding to hike seats: PM's chief science advisor & head of IITs panel </b>

Pallava Bagla

Posted online: Friday, May 26, 2006 at 0000 hrs IST

New Delhi, May 25, Indian Express

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's chief scientific advisor and chairman of the steering committees of the Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) C N R Rao has said that he was "neither consulted nor asked" for his views before the Government decided to increase seats in Central institutions as part of its OBC quota formula.

<b>"I am not at all against reservation per se, intelligence is neither a prerogative nor a gift endowed only on a particular community,"</b> Rao told The Indian Express tonight, but added that the manner in which it was being done<b> was "very crude and without finesse." </b>

"Increasing seats is not an easy task," said Rao. In fact, "galloping ahead" on a complex social issue like this, he said, "is a mistake they are making...a difficult situation has been precipitated without a proper discussion with people who know about education."

<b>That's why today, he said, few are listening to the saner voices of the middle ground. </b>

Rao, chairman of the influential Scientific Advisory Council, said the decision to increase seats has long-term and deep repercussions on the country's scientific base.

<b>"There are a lot of meritorious people in the SC/STs and OBCs, only an opportunity has to be given for them to blossom," </b>said Rao, adding that in his long career, he has nurtured several people who were not from "gifted" backgrounds.

That said, Rao made it clear that increasing seats is a "stupendous task (which) today is being presented in a highly oversimplified fashion." <b>He regretted that those who have run large educational institutions and know the reality of nurturing universities are "not being consulted. </b>Where will you get the trained faculty to teach these additional students? It is not like hurriedly recruiting soldiers during wartime, manning institutions of excellence needs careful selection, can't be done overnight."

http://indianexpress.com/story/5165.html
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#59
'Let us have quota, but let not caste be the criteria' <!--emo&:thumbsup--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbup.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='thumbup.gif' /><!--endemo-->
#60
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Quota stir: Docs decide to continue agitation</b>
Press Trust of India
New Delhi, May 26, 2006
After talks with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, striking anti-reservation resident doctors and medical students on Friday decided to continue their agitation.
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->'Let us have quota, but let not caste be the criteria' <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This will not bring votes.

It is very easy to get fake SC/ST/OBC certificates; it will be very easy to get poverty certificates.
Even creamy layer option won't work. Couple will divorce and will show children are dependent on mother, walla you will get reserved seat.
In Punjab lot of farmers./rich people take divorce on paper to get tax and other benefits. Same they can use for economical criteria.

Only solution, equal opportunity for everyone. No discrimination. Government should provide easy student loan.
This will bring responsibility and accountability.

With growing economy, poverty will decline. Creating caste based system will encourage discrimination and will divide society.

Even after 59 years of reservation why so-called problem is still there.


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