09-09-2007, 07:38 AM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2007, 07:43 AM by Husky.)
He's just baiting (hence the non-facts and unsubstantiated claims). Ignore said loser, he'll go away sooner and, with good luck, perhaps he'll cease to exist altogether.... <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> It's well-known how losers can't thrive without an audience.
Wait! Tooooo funny! Look:
<!--QuoteBegin-Nandu Rajurikar+Sep 8 2007, 01:48 PM-->QUOTE(Nandu Rajurikar @ Sep 8 2007, 01:48 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Every tribe from central Asia attacked India & defeated it. Be it the Huns, the Kushanas, the Shakas, <b>the Romans</b>, the Mongols, the Turks, the Mughals, the british, the French or the Portugese.[right][snapback]72866[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The ROMANS???? Priceless!!!! <!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh, I must tell everyone I know: friends, acquaintances, unknown people I meet on the street. I really hope 'Nandu Rajurikar' is its real name, I don't want to make him/her/it (in)famous under an assumed one.
His/her/its statement is additional proof of how good psecularism is for one's general knowledge and intelligence.
But how will I ever recover! <!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Sep 8 2007, 09:19 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Sep 8 2007, 09:19 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Nandu Rajurikar, how long have you been off your medication now?
[right][snapback]72869[/snapback][/right]
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OR What ever he/she/it was smoking/drinking was a powerful thing. <!--emo&:rock--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rock.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rock.gif' /><!--endemo-->
09-09-2007, 01:07 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2007, 01:09 PM by Pandyan.)
People like Nandoo, who eagerly lap up the vomit of Marxists and other anti-national scum, is one of the reasons why Veer Savarkar wrote his book, The 6 Glorious Epochs of Indian History.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The history writing by the British was a deliberate and systematic effort. The British used history of India as a tool for demoralizing the natives. History of India was twisted, falsified and misinterpreted on a grand scale. In a letter dated December 16, 1868 the famous Indologist Max Muller wrote to the Duke of Argyll, the then Secretary of State of India, 'India has been conquered once, but India must be conquered again and that second conquest should be a conquest by education'.. (Ref: 'The Life and Letter of F. Max Muller, edited by Mrs. Max Muller, 1902, Vol.1, p.357). Prof. Max Muller was not just a philosopher, he was also an examiner for the Indian Civil Service (ICS) examination. Teaching of falsified history played a great part in this 'second conquest'................<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
09-09-2007, 01:17 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2007, 01:20 PM by Bodhi.)
a padha-likha convert (or ready to), my guess.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The overthrow of old religons... by the revealed religions is one of the haunting themes of history.... The changeover is hard to follow... It can be seen...that the great conversions- of nations and cultures, occur when people have no idea about themselves, and have no means of understanding or retrieving their past. ... Converted peoples have to strip themselves of their past... (hating ones past makes it convenient to slowly forget it). ....It is the most uncompromising kind of imperialism.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so says v s naipaul, in Beyond Belief. he was awarded nobel for "uncovering suppressed historic narratives."
09-09-2007, 01:46 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2007, 01:50 PM by Pandyan.)
Nandoo the typical Hindoo, please provide proof for your assertion that our history wasn't glorious. Explain to us how you came to the conclusion that our forefathers weren't brave. So, we shouldn't seek to emulate our great ancestors, the innumerable sages who were seekers of the highest Truth, the many valiant warriors who set the standards for heroism on the battlefields, the countless great scientists and artistes our country has produced? But instead we should prepare ourselves for complete immersion in the Dude Culture of the west? That is your sensible alternative?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Be it the Huns, the Kushanas, the Shakas, the Romans, the Mongols, the Turks, the Mughals, the british, the French or the Portugese. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look these up you moron.
Any point arguing with Nandu??
You can't reason with a man who asserts that the sun rises in the West. Pointless, worthless waste of time and space and bytes
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Sep 9 2007, 04:41 PM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Sep 9 2007, 04:41 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Any point arguing with Nandu??
You can't reason with a man who asserts that the sun rises in the West. Pointless, worthless waste of time and space and bytes
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He just might change......but more importantly, this topic falls in the category of "argue to convince others who might be watching". Hence the argument...
As they say, <i>Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.</i>
And you can see why people want us to forget our history, our past, our culture and our heritage. Now, what would prompt some newbie to ignore over a thousand posts, links, articles and references on this website and put some loaded charges? We know that there has been a very systematic and co-ordinated effort for past 150+ years for us to forget our history. And certain elements in our nation have played their role in this agenda. Some as unwitting accomplices and others as hatchet men for monetary gain. It's too bad for such forces that with technological progress and free flow of ideas and thoughts, we are reclaiming history. The battle for textbooks in California is one such battleground where the honest, hard-working and decent folks have taken such Witzelian conspirators head on. Support them folk, every $ counts.
You want to make a statement, contribute to www.capeem.org
Shambu,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->argue to convince others who might be watching". Hence the argument...
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Some point by point rebutal can be offered with material just on this website without reference to any external sources. Perhaps Nanduji here will spend some time on this website and learn something in the process too. Or maybe he'll just convenience us wrap up here <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nandu: You've made some loaded statements as in your forefathers being cowardly and all. Please, what's the source of these gems you've heaped upon us? It's important to understand the pedigree of such ideas for a honest discussion going forward.
"I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad-Gita. It was the first of books; it was as if an empire spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but large, serene, consistent, the voice of an old intelligence which in another age and climate had pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which exercise us.â
âThe Indian teaching, through its clouds of legends, has yet a simple and grand religion, like a queenly countenance seen through a rich veil.
It teaches to speak truth, love others, and to dispose trifles.
The East is grand - and makes Europe appear the land of trifles. ...all is soul and the soul is Vishnu ...cheerful and noble is the genius of this cosmogonyâ
â<b>When India was explored, and the wonderful riches of Indian theological literature found, that dispelled once and for all, the dream about Christianity being the sole revelation</b>.Â
- Nature makes a Brahmin of me presently.â<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now I wondered what prompted someone like Ralph Waldo Emerson to say such things about our Hindu/Indian teachings? I pick a prominent western philosopher since Nandu believes in western philosophy and poo-poos our indeginous teachings. Will list more western philosophers/scientists/authors echoing similar thoughts.
<span style='color:red'>Skeleton of ghaTotkaccha?</span>
There was a strange news reported in the print edition of Dainik Jagran today. Only now, when I am trying to locate the news else where, including in the online editions, I am unable to. The news has just disappeared.
According to this news, with source being Jagran/agencies (not PTI etc), Indian Army and National Geographic India have discovered an intact "human" skeleton which is of HUGE proportions. The length of the skeleton is about 80 feet, the length of the head itself is about 10 feet, from top of forehead to the chin. Location is somewhere in the north-western deserts, and undisclosed. There was a color photo too, with an Indian Army Jawan standing near the head of the skeleton - and the soldier is looking too small.
There is a side-note saying that Jagran beleives it might be from Mahabharata yuga - and that of someone from Rakshasa vansha, maybe of ghaTotkaccha. There is also an inscription in Bramhi found nearby. ASI has taken control, and the find is being treated as the top secret. ASI has told Jagran that - no comments until orders from GOI.
Am I dreaming? But I do have the paper, and can scan and upload if you don't believe me!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ASI has told Jagran that - no comments until orders from GOI. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now xitian, Sikh and commie led government will hide this information and will call a myth.
Bodhi, Its not a matter of belief. Once you cant find the on-line ref you have to scan and post it as widely as you can to get it publicity. Do you need to be assured of this?
Looks like Giant Skeleton is hoax and found in Arabia and India.
Here is some pictures. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:N2vngZ...&gl=us&ie=UTF-8
<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> explains. and saves me the trouble. thanks Mudy.
Dont know where to post. So here, though not directly related to Indian History.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:red'>Archeologists excavate ancient temple in Peru</span>
Lima (Peru) (AP): Carbon dating tests and excavation of a colourful pre-Incan temple indicate that it was built thousands of years ago by an advanced civilisation, a prominent archaeologist said in comments published on Monday by a Peruvian newspaper.
Unearthed in Peru's archeologically rich northern coastal desert, the temple has a staircase leading to an altar that was used for worshiping fire and making offerings to deities, Walter Alva, who headed the three-month excavation, told El Comercio.
Some of the walls of the 2,500-square-metre site - almost half the size of a football field - were painted, and a white and red mural depicts a deer being hunted with a net.
Alva said the temple was apparently constructed by an "advanced civilisation" because it was built with mud bricks made from sediment found in local rivers, instead of rocks.
"This discovery shows an architectural and iconographic tradition different from what has been known until now," said Alva, who discovered and is the museum director for another important pre-Incan find, the nearby Lords of Sipan Moche Tombs.
The carbon dating tests, conducted in the United States, indicate that the site is 4,000 years old, he claimed.
The oldest known city in the Americas is Caral, also near the Peruvian coast, which researchers dated to 2627 BC.
Came in Email. P N Oak is no more.
His nephew is Wing Commander Oak (forget first name) and he's done some extensive research into <i>Naadi-shastra</i> and has a decent book on it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Purushottam Nagesh Oak died on Dec. 4, 2007. He was 91. May his aatman attain unity with paramaatman in paramapadam.
His contributions to provoking new thinking on hindu civilizational history are remarkable and a veritable rebuttal of witzelisms. He was a patriot, firm in his conviction of the antiquity and universality of hindu civilization, driven by an indefatigable quest for removing the distortions in bharatiya itihaas by motivated, principally eurocentric zealots.
His books:
"ïâ· Christianity is Chrisn-nity,
ïâ· Islamic Havoc in India (A. Ghosh Publisher, 5740 W. Little York, Houston, Texas, 77091)
ïâ· The Taj Mahal Is a Temple Place (Alternate title, The Taj Mahal is a Hindu Palace, Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi)
ïâ· Who Says Akbar Was Great? (Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi)
ïâ· Agra Red Fort is a Hindu Building (Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi)
ïâ· Some Blunders of Indian Historical Research (Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi)
ïâ· Some Missing Chapters of World History (Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi)
ïâ· World Vedic Heritage -- A History of Histories (Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi)
ïâ· Taj Mahal ââ¬â The True Story ( ISBN 0-9611614-4-2)
"He was born in Indore, Madhya Pradesh. During World War II he joined the Indian National Army, which fought with the Japanese against the British. He obtained M.A and L.L.B degrees from Mumbai University. From 1947 to 1953 he was a reporter for the The Hindustan Times and The Statesman newspapers. From 1953 to 1957, he worked in India's Central Radio and Public Ministry. From 1959 to 1974, he worked at the American Embassy in New Delhi."
12-15-2007, 09:08 PM (This post was last modified: 12-15-2007, 09:29 PM by Husky.)
Response to Shambhu's post 244 in the '(Un)historicity of jesus' tread.
Putting response here, since it does not belong there.
<!--QuoteBegin-Shambhu+Dec 15 2007, 10:28 AM-->QUOTE(Shambhu @ Dec 15 2007, 10:28 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Re ISKON:
1. I too don't like their "demigod" business. I go to ISKON gatherings weekly, but I am a Shaiva, always will be. I like Veera rasa more than bhakti rasa or shringaar rasa. <b>I like Krisna too, but as non-different from Shiva. The difference is only at our end (the devotee's).</b>
[right][snapback]76178[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Though I know that <i>ultimately</i> Shiva and Krishna (and the rest of our Gods) are indeed the same, I happen to be such that I like to think of them in their separate manifested forms as Shiva and Krishna - with their own unique characters. I have equally deep feelings for all of them. (I have been hard at work making them all my Ishtadevam, so to speak... though I started off with a goodly number at a young age itself)
Though their characters are similar in fundamentals (great goodness, great guides, great inspiration), I <i>very</i> much like their individual trademark characteristics. I like thinking of them just as I have heard tell of them from our stories <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I find different stories and different Gods profoundly moving at various times of my life and even at different hours of some days. I can't explain it. (The best analogy I can think of - and it's a poor one - is that feeling of "Collect them all - each form can manifest separately".) Similarly, I find them all immensely inspiring for my drawings.
I just like thinking of them all, period.
Thought you might like this -
This is an (apparently famous) shlokam called "Vairagyashtaka" which a Shiva bhakta had written about his own feelings:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I make no difference in substance between Shiva, the supreme Lord of the universe, and Vishnu, its inmost Self.
But still may my devotion continue to be directed to the Lord as Shiva.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->And this one is a similar prayer - by a Ramar devotee this time (my book here of the RK Math doesn't give this shloka's name):
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I look upon Vishnu and Rama as one and the same, but still may I hold the beautiful Rama to be my all-in-all.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->These are Hindus who chose their Ishtadevams - the manifestation of the divine that most suited/appealed to them, though they knew these are all the same in the very end. The first shlokam kinda seems to fit you, I thought.
<b>ADDED</b>: another Hindu shloka compiled into the same RK Math book, this one explicitly states more of the Dharmic view -
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Whether the highest Being is called Vishnu or Shiva, Brahma or Indra, Sun or Moon, Buddha - the Enlightened, or Mahavir - the Perfect, I always offer my salutations to Him alone who is free from attachment and hatred, worldliness and ignorance, who is endowed with compassion towards all creatures, and is possessed of all noble attributes.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
12-15-2007, 09:32 PM (This post was last modified: 12-15-2007, 09:35 PM by Bodhi.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Dec 15 2007, 11:38 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Dec 15 2007, 11:38 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->similar prayer - by a Ramar devotee this time (my book here of the RK Math doesn't give this shloka's name):
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I look upon Vishnu and Rama as one and the same, but still may I hold the beautiful Rama to be my all-in-all.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->These are Hindus who chose their Ishtadevams - the manifestation of the divine that most suited/appealed to them, though they knew these are all the same in the very end.
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Very well put. even consider the anecdote of sant sri tulasidas ji when he was traveling through braja-vrindavana. As he was visiting a Krishna temple, some critics commented that 'here comes a known Rama devotee, praying finally to Krishna'. (per another tradition it was narada muni's game with tulasi). To this, he appealed to Krishna like this:
kaa baranau chhavi aap ki, bhale bane ho nath,
tulsi mastak tab navai jab dhanush baan lehu haath
{how to describe your beauty, what a wonderful form you have now taken my Lord,
However your tulasi will bow to you, when you take your bow and arrows at hand}
(And whatever the truth, tradition says that the Krishna pratima did appear with bow and arrows of Rama)
Likewise, consider the life and words of Ma Mirabai. She says, 'mere to giridhar gopala, doosaro na koi' {to me only Giridhar Gopal, none else}. This is not a theological statement but an experience born out of her singular love towards her isTadeva. Like a sati wife only can think of one man - her husband, she thinks of only gopal and no other isTa. But that does not mean she can not respect other forms and manifestations of her lord. She also says 'payo ji maine rama-ratan-dhan payo' {found, I found, the tresure of rama-jewel} This is a sign of loving devotion with a true knowledge of her isTa.
This articles contains a good pack of lies & half-truths.
From Moghul emperor Akbar to Bahadur Shah Zafar - the hero of Indiaâs first war of independence, to Maulana Azad - the pre-eminent freedom fighter, to President APJ Abdul Kalam â the creator of Indiaâs missile program and beyond, there is an illustrious unending string of Muslims who contributed substantially in the building of the Indian nation over the centuries.
<b>The Past</b>
In the 600 years that Muslims were in power in India most Muslim kings were moderates who held power by forming alliances of Muslims and Hindus. During the 300 year long Moghul empire it was a political alliance of Moghuls and Rajput Hindus that held power in North India. Together, they spent decades to extend their hold into South India waging continual wars against the Bahmani sultans, the Golkunda dynasty, the Qutubshahi dynasty - all of whom were Muslims.
Most Muslim rulers and their noblemen in India forsook the ethos of the West Asian nations of their origin and integrated themselves with the culture and soil of India to create the Indo-Islamic civilization. Much as in ancient times the Aryans of central Asia integrated themselves with the same Indian soil to develop the Hindu civilization.
Indian Muslims are justifiably proud of their Indo-Islamic heritage. It is a genuinely Indian civilization that the people of India belonging to different religions created by merging the culture of the Muslim immigrants from West Asia with that of the Hindus of India.
At the dawn of independence while a sizeable number of Muslims migrated to Pakistan, about 60 million at that time chose to stay in India. <b>Without a doubt these people rejected the two nation theory</b>(rejected because it was difficult to move, not that they did not want to go), considered the formation of Pakistan a disaster for the Muslims and India, and believed in the secular and diverse milieu of India.
It can not be forgotten that a majority of Muslims in the provinces that remained in India supported Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Valabbahi Patel and Maulana Azad in their opposition to the partitioning of India.
<b>The Present</b>
However soon after independence in 1947 Muslims in India found themselves the victims of the backlash of the formation of Pakistan, an action that they had opposed strongly. <b>They found themselves excluded from the mainstream and suspect in their nationalism, in the midst of people with whom they had grown up as youngsters.</b> (If you goto a Madrassa but not to nearby govt. school, then what can anyone do)
<b>Today the overwhelming majority of Indiaâs Muslims consider being Indian as important as being Muslim.</b> (I am yet to find a IM, who will unequivocally put nation first and religion second and then you complain about being found wanted in nationalism) A majority of them are people who were born after independence and for whom stories of Indiaâs partition is something that they heard from their parents. Of their own free will Muslims vote for secular parties rather than for Muslim parties and candidates, who are not secular.
The result of the last election indicates that of the about thirty Muslim members of the Indian parliament, all of whom stood from constituencies with sizeable Muslim population, only three are from Muslim parties. Muslims in India never associate with any separatists or anti-national elements. As for the Kashmir problem, it is not a Hindu-Muslim problem. It is the result of years of mismanagement by successive governments in New Delhi and Srinagar, that allowed the festering impoverishment and deprivation of Kashmiris to acquire an anti-national color.
<b>The Despair</b>
In-spite of their being 140 million strong and their overwhelming festering impoverishment, Muslims in India have no leadership worth its name, no coherent direction and no roadmap to break out of their sixty year old state- of- siege. (that is the result of Madrassa training) The number of Indian Muslims living below poverty level has remained at 55 percent for decades, compared to the 35 percent national average. Similarly 45 percent of the Muslim community continues to be illiterate compared to 36 percent for all Indians; 55 percent of Muslim women are illiterate compared to 40 percent for all Indian women.
The blight and squalor of Muslim townships in Indiaâs many cities reflects the contempt with which successive federal and state governments have treated the Muslim community for decades. <b>The very acute shortage of schools, medical clinics, parks, paved roads, sanitation facilities and the large number of unemployed youth in Muslim localities is a gnawing reality.</b> (as if these are not a problem in Hindu villages) In most Muslim high schools there are either no libraries and laboratories, or they are in shambles. Despite many surveys, commissions and recommendations that successive federal and state governments have promulgated, the very poor condition of the basic civic infrastructure in Muslim townships flies in the face of the impressive modernized infrastructure in the rest of the country.
For sixty years now<b> Muslim Dalits and Muslim OBCs</b>, (I thought everyone is equal in Islam, isn't that the reason given why Hindu SCs converted to Islam) despite their impoverishment and despair, have been excluded from the purview of the governmentâs affirmative action plan while Hindu and Buddhist Dalits and OBCs have benefitted immensely from such plans.
For decades a variety of political parties, e.g. Congress, Samajwadi Party, Bahujan Samaj Party, Communist Party of India and others that proclaim themselves as sympathetic to Muslims, have continued to exploit the Muslim community for their votes with empty and meaningless promises that have remained unfulfilled, even though waves of elections have come and gone. While these parties have given tickets to Muslim candidates for parliament and state assemblies, and some of them have won, these powerless Muslim representatives in the political infrastructure have no voice in bringing development to the Muslim townships. Over a decade ago these parties proclaimed repeatedly in UP and Bihar that Urdu â the mother tongue of Muslims in those states â will be the second language. But after more than a decade hardly any Urdu teachers have been hired for the numerous schools, and Urdu with which their heritage is directly linked continues to die.
<b>In such circumstances it is indeed strange that some political parties and politicians often campaign on the theme that successive governments have appeased Muslims.</b> (Muslim community has long been appeased by granting special privilidges to them in constitution, separate laws, special status in Kashmir etc etc., forthcoming - 15% budget in the next 5 yr plan) This misleading propaganda has so charged the atmosphere that today every legitimate Muslim grievance, be it an appeal for financial relief for victims of communal violence, or basic infrastructure uplift, or better schools or preservation of Urdu, or protection of mosques and shrines, or freedom to retain their Muslim identity, is advertised by the obscurantist political forces as Muslimsâ attempt to seek special privileges.
<b>The Future</b>
After waiting for sixty years to have political parties and others lobby for them and help resolve their problems, today the future of the Muslim community lies in taking a bold lead and seeking the active help of the majority Hindu community and the power structure. They need to calmly persuade majority Hindus that their backwardness is a national Indian problem just like the backwardness of the lower caste Hindus, and that it is not a problem of just the Muslim community.
If the Muslims are trying to retain their Indo-Islamic identity then so are all major ethnic groups in India. Punjabi Hindus have very different social practices than Tamil Hindus; Bengali Hindus have totally different social practices than the Gujarati Hindus; UP/Bihar Hindus have completely different cultural practices than the Andhra Pradesh Hindus. So why should mainstream India interpret the attempts of the Indian Muslims to retain their distinct identity as lack of integration and nationalism? Why not lend a helping hand to help break their state-of-siege?
<b>Kaleem Kawaja is past President of Association of Indian Muslims of America (AIM), Washington DC</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Most Muslim rulers and their noblemen in India forsook the ethos of the West Asian nations of their origin and integrated themselves with the culture and soil of India to create the Indo-Islamic civilization. Much as in ancient times the Aryans of central Asia integrated themselves with the same Indian soil to develop the Hindu civilization. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "Aryans of central Asia" business is a lie. That "history" has now been rubbished. Note that if Mr Kallem Kawaja can quote history that is convenient to his viewpoint, why be concerned but "injustices" being done to Muslims using similarly distorted history
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Indian Muslims are justifiably proud of their Indo-Islamic heritage.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No Doubt No doubt.
But most Hindus too are justifiably proud of their Indic heritage.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It can not be forgotten that a majority of Muslims in the provinces that remained in India supported Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Valabbahi Patel and Maulana Azad in their opposition to the partitioning of India. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sir. The Muslim majority provinces voted for the Muslim league. Some of those provinces still remain very backward.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->However soon after independence in 1947 Muslims in India found themselves the victims of the backlash of the formation of Pakistan, an action that they had opposed strongly. They found themselves excluded from the mainstream and suspect in their nationalism, in the midst of people with whom they had grown up as youngsters.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. But look at the Hindu viewpoint. The Hindu could survive ONLY if he chose India. The Muslim in 1947 was free to choose to live in India or Pakistan. And for years it was not clear to Hindus whether a given Muslim would choose this nation or that. The Hindu was restricted, not the Muslim. The Hindu was restricted from living or visiting what had been part of his land. The Muslim was given rights in india and would be welcome in Pakistan.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the Kashmir problem, it is not a Hindu-Muslim problem. It is the result of years of mismanagement by successive governments in New Delhi and Srinagar, that allowed the festering impoverishment and deprivation of Kashmiris to acquire an anti-national color. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe correct sir. Maybe correct. But there is a Hindu viewpoint too. "Years of mismanagement" includes the ethnic cleansing of Hindu pandits by Muslims, so it's a little lie to say that there was no Hindu-Muslim problem there. Another little lie is the complaint that partition made Indian Muslims suspect in an earlier paragraph, and quietly forgetting that Pakistanis, who, for Hindus were "people with whom they had grown up as youngsters." made every effort to portray Kashmir as a Hindu Muslim problem. How can an Indian Muslim conveniently deny that there was no "Hindu-Muslim problem" in Kashmir?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Muslims in India have no leadership worth its name, no coherent direction and no roadmap to break out of their sixty year old state- of- siege.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is another lie to say that Muslims do not have leaders. When Muslims do not have leaders they go to the ulema and follow what the ulema say. That is part of the problem. There are plenty of Hindu leaders to follow. One has to learn to trust at least some of them. They are telling Muslims what to do, but Muslims do not follow them. Tell the truth sir, are Muslims taught, or are they not taught to distrust non Muslims?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->55 percent of Muslim women are illiterate compared to 40 percent for all Indian women.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Social workers that I speak to tell me that Muslims refuse to send their girls to school. Muslims may want slamic schools for them. If Muslims want to stay apart, why complain about Hindus. Hindus are begging for Muslims to join, not remain separate. Muslims choose not to join and choose to whine and whine and whine and complain.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For sixty years now Muslim Dalits and Muslim OBCs, despite their impoverishment and despair, have been excluded from the purview of the governmentâs affirmative action plan<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But sir - this is confusing. You say "Muslim Dalits and Muslim OBCs". But "dalits" and "OBCs" are HHindu problem are they not? castes are for Hindus not Muslims? Are you conveniently now asking for case because it is beneficial to do that.
From a Hindu viewpoint, Muslims in 1947 asked for a separate country because that was convenient. Now you are asking for a new definition that makes caste a Muslim feature. That sounds like a convenient ploy. Doesn't everyone want an advantage?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If the Muslims are trying to retain their Indo-Islamic identity then so are all major ethnic groups in India. Punjabi Hindus have very different social practices than Tamil Hindus; Bengali Hindus have totally different social practices than the Gujarati Hindus; UP/Bihar Hindus have completely different cultural practices than the Andhra Pradesh Hindus. So why should mainstream India interpret the attempts of the Indian Muslims to retain their distinct identity as lack of integration and nationalism? Why not lend a helping hand to help break their state-of-siege?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, yes yes Sir. But you forget that all these Punjabi, Tamil and UP/Bihar Hindus - with all their differences, share in Indic culture. Can Muslims show that they share that Indic culture too? After all that indic culture has been dissed, criticized and trashed. Pakistan has tried to reject it, and you too are denying it by pretending that all these Hindus are different. Yes they are different - but the link is Indic culture boss. It has survived and will thrive. Why do you choose to deny that it is present?
And don't forget that dalits and OBCs - a group you now claim includes Muslims are ALSO Indic culture. Why deny it in one area and beg to join it in another?
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