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Harvard Ethics: An Oxymoron
Previous version of the thread is here

Is Harvard Trustee <b>Alan Bersin </b>has been blatantly misusing his position as CA Sec. of Ed. to direct lucrative SBE consulting pork to the Harvard Professor Witzel, because Sanskrit/Indology dept is on the verge of closing due to lack of research contracts, student fees, and generally low-class ranking?
Critical Observations on the Michael Witzel Petition dt. 11/08/06</b>
By Vishal Agarwal

TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/cftof
Pot calling kettle black?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Harvard study blasts Bush education policy

Thursday, February 16, 2006; Posted: 9:56 a.m. EST (14:56 GMT)

BOSTON, Massachusetts (Reuters) -- President Bush's No Child Left Behind education policy has in some cases benefited white middle-class children over blacks and other minorities in poorer regions, a Harvard University study showed Tuesday.
Hi! This came in the email cc-ed from someone. I thought u guys mite b interested since it mentions ur forum a lot.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Did you miss the elephant in the room dear SJMN? </b>

Dear Ms. Krieger and fellow journalists of the Mercury News:

This is about your article
"Scholars, faithful debate textbooks' portrayal of Hinduism"

Mothers all over India, speaking dozens of different languages,  have the same way of chiding kids who don't pay attention: "You heard the whole Ramayana, and then ask what Mr. Sit was to Ms. Rama?" (FYI, since you may have studied from California textbooks: The Indian epic Ramayana  is about Prince Ram and princess Sita ).

With all due respect, Ms. Krieger, you missed the story entirely. Here are two basic questions:

1. Isn't  Secretary of Education Alan Bersin, a Trustee and Overseer of Havard University, abusing his power and your tax dollars, by thrusting a Harvard flunkie and his buddies as "Super-CRP" at the last minute to override the year-long efforts and recommendations of the lawfully constituted Content Review Panel? Is this not far worse than PA Senator Arlen Specter's supposedly unethical "directed funding" to clients of a lobbyist married to his aide? That made front page headlines in USA Today (Feb 16) - where are California's ace journalists when Bersin's highly suspicious actions are right in front of their eyes? Why have you not asked the State Board to comment on that, Ms. Krieger?

2. The predictable result of that abuse is the patently illegal arrogance of the State Board of Education in denying EQUAL treatment to Hindu-Americans, and conducting closed-door meetings to override citizen decisions in order to favor the indefensible bigotry of the East Coast Hired Gun.

Why must the State seek "non-Hindu" input to dicate the sections on Hinduism, Ms. Krieger?  Is the section on Judaism dictated by Nazis? Or the section on Christianity by the Taliban or their apologists the FOSA? Or by the California Communists such as the FOIL?

Do you believe that only someone with a name like "Witzel" or "Krieger" can be a "prominent academic" or "objective scholar", not Prof. Bajpai, and not the 100+ professors, among 2500+ citizens, who have signed a petition on the internet declaring Witzel's conduct to be a disgrace to Harvard university to and all who believe in decency?

The hatred and political arrogance are all coming from those who want our kids to be taught to hate us - and to not even recognize that fact, as one of the people you interviewed proves so well.  And that's exactly what Hindu Americans are fighting to overcome.

For your information, even I, sitting 2000 miles from Sacramento, know what California Law and Common Sense say:
"The same yardstick should be applied to all religions, and there should not be any discrimination against any religion."

Textbooks should conform, in letter and spirit, to the CA State Law [Education Code 60044, subsections [a] and [b]], of the "Standards for Evaluating Instructional Materials for Social Content [2000 Edition]," according to which: "No religious belief or practice may be held up to ridicule and no religious group may be portrayed as inferior."

And the California State Board of Education Guidelines say
"Textbooks should  instill a sense of pride in every child in his or her heritage"

How tough is that to figure out, Ms. Krieger?

On December 1, the State Board of Education formulated an excellent compromise after giving Mr. Witzel  and his flunkies every opportunity to present their case, such as it was. But the SBE never published that compromise document, instead "leaking" it to the Taliban/Communist organization called "FOSA" and to Witzel's gang.

Instead, on January 5, they held a CLOSED-DOOR, unannounced meeting, allowing Witzel to fly in NON-HINDUS funded by some New Jersey Conversionist Scam (again associated with Harvard funding), and giving Witzel VETO POWER over every edit - and now claim that this is their final decision!

Is this Open Democracy and Open Government in today's Terminator California? Where are the Guardians of Democracy, your journalists, to question this abuse?

Every time peaceful citizens have been forced to fight to "win" constitutionally-mandated rights, there have always been sniveling idiots in the middle, parroting the powerful hate-mongers to help put down those citizens, calling them "fundamentalists", and kissing up to  the hate-mongers as "scholars" etc. Don't be on the wrong side of history, Ms. Krieger.

Please also read:

Critical Observations on the Michael Witzel Petition By Vishal Agarwal

Forgetting the Child - the Heart of the Matter By Niraj Mohanka

Scholarship of Equine Posteriors – Har(vard)appa Style

And please follow the real story in this: why is a Harvard Trustee abusing taxpayer dollars to pay a Harvard professor known mostly for his bullying and his record of creating conflict?  Why have these hired guns been brought in to pollute the  Californian air where parents and teachers were working together in peace and cooperation to decide what their kids should learn?


Another Witzel Admirer steps on his own Little Cheney:

For background, this guy is a Syrian Catholic from Kerala who studied at various colonial schools, then became a u-guessed-it - South Asia Faculty Expert. Then got a deep interest (we'll leave that unspecified) in the Peace and Love professed by Slobo Milosevic towards his neighbors. Now lives in Serbia.
Malloos have a hard-learned tradition of NOT commenting on each other's religion, at least in each other's hearing - the key to maintaining peace and relative harmony. You can go to each other's festival, or even inside the place of worship if they allow you, and as long as you observe all their customs with deep respect. You sure go to each other's weddings and any other parties. You eat each other's food, and watch each other's religious movies, and read each others' books. BUT YOU NEVER EVER TRY TO ADVISE ON EACH OTHER's RELIGION.

This pompous asshole violates that completely. Good thing he's in Serbia - his mentality is well suited to the land where they showed what happens when you start commenting too freely on each other's religions and everything else, and happen to have the Ouzo and the AK-47 handy.
So he has NO excuse.
Read in sequence.

1. What he wrote to his friends before
2. What he wrote to the Wall Street Journal
3. How he tries to roll around in his own poo afterwards.

1. What he wrote to his friends BEFORE his WSJ letter appeared:

(I don't have his original letter - will post it when I recover it)
He got a sharp question:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> > Dear Raju,
I am deeply disturbed at what you have written. Either you have no knowledge about the subject or have chosen to ignore the huge amount of data available which would clearly indicate that it was Prof Witzel and his gang that has perverted and politicised the whole issue.  I often wonder if the only way Hindus can get justice done is to threaten violence...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

To which he said:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Raju Thomas <>
To: xxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:12:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: On the Cal Text dispute
Dear xxx,

Sorry about this.  I did not mean to offend you. <b>Actually, I have little knowledge of the subject, as you say</b>. I read all the messages you send me as well as those from the other side. I have read all the arguments of Rajiv Malhotra, Aggarwal and others  (yeah, sure, of course...  nose growing longer..) but then also those of Vinay Lal, Madhav Deshpande and others.  I dont pay much attention to American scholars.

I promised myself that I would not get involved in this but thought I would throw in my bit.  I know
Shiva Bajpai who with Subash Kak wrote most of the entries on Hinduism for the Encyclopedia of India.  It was my policy only to invite scholars whose religion is Hindu, Muslim, Jain or Parsee to write the entries on Hinduism, Islam, Jainism and Zorastrianism. Wolpert obtained the entries on Judaism and Christianity in India, all his ex-Phds from UCLA. Bahpai and Kak are also his students. I could not find one on Buddhism so got the entries on Buddhism from two young American Buddhist professors who were highly attached to Buddhism.

I understand the problem of describing Hinduism because it is a highly profound and complex religion which cannot be reflected by caste and Dalits alone. That would be a distortion and misrepresentation. It would be like describing the Parsee religion as mainly feeding their dead bodies to vultures on Malabar Hill. On the whole I am in sympathy with Rajiv Malhotra and others. Unlike Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism, Hinduism cannot be explained in a paragraph or two.

Howwever, discrediting the Aryan invasion theory is more problematic.  Either the Aryans invaded India or Hindus invaded Europe several millenia ago. The ancient Indo-European link has not been dis-proved.  Regarding Michael Witzel, he is doing his job as he sees right. Maybe he is wrong.  There can be differences of opinion on this.  He is not anti-Hindu in fact I doubt if there is bone of anti-Hinduism in him although I have never met him. What reason would he have to be anti-Hindu? he is not a Nazi or a White supremacist. His bio shows that his wife is Japanese and his children are half Japanese.

(Ed: Come to think of it, Hitler had nothing against the Japanese either)

This controversy is getting a lot of attention for Hinduism which otherwise nobody pays any attention to. I have learnt things which I never knew before.  Then I began to read up more on Hinduism through resources available on the internet, as I am sure are many Westerners who knew nothing about Hinduism are doing too. Hindus in America are seen as law-abiding highly educated and professional people, and now also the richest per capita surpassing the White Anglo-Saxon Protestants.  Hindusm is not under threat even in the CalText controversy.  The question there is of fact and accuracy and comparable treatment with other religions.

About violence, it has been paying off grandly for Muslim. This thing about the prophet depicted in a cartoon is completely out of whack. Jesus is portrayed in all sorts of negative ways in political writings and cartoons.  It is simply shrugged off by those who care becausing protesting will not end it.  But Muslim violence will pay.  The West will give themselves a 100 lashes, praise Islam as a peaceful religion, and concede on the freedom of speech issue.

I am busy with the Kosovo issue. The heart and soul of Serbia with its more than millenia-old thousand medieval churches and monasteries are about to handed over to Albanian Muslims.  This fill finally break the Serbian spirit.

Best wishes from Belgrade on the Danube.

Best wishes.


Raju George C. Thomas
Visiting US Fulbright Professor
Faculty of the Political Sciences
Jove Ilica 165, Belgrade University
11000 Belgrade, Serbia Montenegro




2. What the asshole wrote to the Wall Street Journal (actually he is in Serbia now, not Wisconsin, as u see above, but stating that wouldn't con the WSJ into publishing thinking that he's an expert on India, would it?)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Prof. Witzel's intervention in the California textbook controversy to prevent Hindu nationalists from pushing their positive version of Hinduism was timely and appropriate. In particular, the attempt by this Hindu lobby to censor references to the practice of "untouchability" would be to deny what was always an integral part of the practice of Hinduism. Under the Hindu caste system, the Dalits were made to live the most oppressed, degraded, humiliating lives, worse than anything elsewhere in the world. Despite "untouchability" being outlawed in India, the Dalits' plight still continues in many villages, while many wealthy upper caste Hindus continue to view them with contempt and prejudice. Change won't come if this part of Hinduism is whitewashed in California textbooks.
Raju G.C. Thomas
Marquette University
Milwaukee, Wis <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


3. Now he tries to roll around:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->From: Raju Thomas <>
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:59:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: On the Cal Textbook dispute

Your entire letter did not come through to me.

YYYY claimed that there were deeper aspects to the issue which I did not understand.  I acknowledged and meant in my one liner that I did not know the aspects that he was referring to. But I am not totally ignorant of the subject.  <!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo-->

My letter to the editor of WSJ <b>was as a layman who knows enough</b>. <b>(Liar, Liar! Danube's on Fire!) </b>

When I taught India to my students for the last 30 years(I am retiring after my Fulbright in Belgrade), I teach them the basics of Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Jainism and Zorastrianism on the grounds they would not understand Indian politics without knowing the religions especially Hinduism and Islam.  I must have done a good job because I have had several Hindu students in my class over the years who have thanked me for teaching them their own religion.  One of my American students, Elizabeth Constable was so impressed she went on to study Sanskrit and to do a PhD in Hinduism at the Harvard Divinity School.  <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->

(Puke Alert!!! )<!--emo&:drool--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/drool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='drool.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As I said about Michael Witzel in my letter, the job of an academic is not that of a political lobbyist or to advance religious zealotry. We are entitled to academic freedom and to make our judgements. Others are entitled to dispute. We are expected to take a CRITICAL approach to our subject, not make everybody feel good.  My job is not to endorse India's policies although I tend to have done that in foreign policy against Pakistan and the US.

(As one Nazi/Ethnic Cleansing Supporter admiring anotherSmile <!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo-->

I have looked at Witzel's bio on the Harvard website. Whatever your dispute with him on this issue, his scholarship is impressive.  He is a distinguished professor. He deserves the Wales endowed chair at Harvard.  I also inquired with an American I know at Harvard and he informed me that his teaching evaluations are outstanding including from many students who are Hindus.

I deplore this lynch mob mentality against him. My twin brother Ravi sent me a long long dossier on Witzel on the internet about his anti-Hindu remarks compiled by someone.  My nerves would be rattled if I discovered I am being stalked. He is a Nazi, a White Supremacist, an anti-semite, and a Marxist.  What rubbish. Witzel is doing his job with honesty and integrity as he sees the problem, whether you and I agree with him. Y9u guys are giving Hinduism and Hindus a bad name here, not those Hindu pseudo-secularists, leftists, Marxists and mental slaves of the West. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo-->

At which point he was exposed rather badly.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Raju,

Something went wrong with the computer which resulted in sending my uncompleted e-mail to you. I have read all your three e-mails and the letter to editor, WSJ on the subject. It seems that there are different statements from your for different audiences.

My comments are as under:

1. You have said in the e-mail to Mr. YYYY that you have little knowledge on the subject. But your letter to WSJ does not mention this fact nor does it mention that you are writing as a layman. On the contrary, you have used your university's name to tell the editor and the readers that you are a scholar on the subject. It seems that these different statement are meant for different audiences. That tantamount to intellectual dishonesty and double standards.
2.  You said ""the job of an academic is not that of a political lobbyist or to advance religious zealotry. We are entitled to academic freedom and to make our judgements. Others are entitled to dispute. We are expected to take a CRITICAL approach to our subject, not make everybody feel good. " You are aware that all citizens are entitled to the same freedom. The Constitution of USA did not give any special rights to "academics", some of whom in the liberal arts are in the habit of imposing their prejudiced and preconceived theories and views on the nonacademic public as true facts. We, non-academics have the same freedom  to critically analyze your or Witzel's statements on the open Internet. But when that happens, the same "academics" tend to squel about "lynch mob mentality" and I hope that you are not one of those who will squeal like that, because it only makes people laugh.
3. I believe that academic freedom comes with total accountability of scholars. Protecting academic freedom and nurturing scholarship are best served by not misusing that  freedom. Unfortunately, many self-appointed 'scholars' and 'historians' from the west from the reputed universities are indeed misusing this academic freedom to denigrate and demean Hinduism, its traditions, and symbolism. Negative attitudes and stereotypes about Hinduism and India as taught in the American classrooms have a devastating impact on Hindu students who are already struggling to find their own identity in a multicultural but predominantly Ango-Christian society like America.
4. Please read "Critical Observations on the Michael Witzel Petition dated 11/8/05" to CA Education Board (http://www.india-forum.com/articles/91/1...l-Petition ) by Vishal Agarwal. This will explain the 'scholarship' of Witzel about which you are praising so much.

The impressive bio and marriage to a Japanese woman are not the criteria by which one can determine the quality standard of an academic. This "esteemed academician" Witzel of  Harvard University has been publicly calling for wide publication and active dissemination of videos showing people cleaning latrines, and demanding this to be included in middle-school textbooks. His petition to CA Edu.Board is two pages of sheer hate. With a board brush all Hindu parents, children, activists and organizations have been branded as "Hindu fundamentalists" and tied with RSS and Sangh.

Is this scholarship from Harvard? For your information, some of the worthies who signed his petition are from different academic fields like economics and science without any knowledge of Hinduism. Many of them were collected from outside America. On the top of it, the petitioners had not even seen the changes asked by the Hindus in the curriculum. What does it show? These worthy scholars had sent this petition to the Board without doing their elementary homework. In the recent meeting organized by Hindu students at Harvard, Witzel made the closing remarks to the effect that "the process in Texas two years away will be a lot more dirty" or something like that. Is this a valid position for an academic scholar occupying a tenured position at Harvard to take? Does it not sound like politically motivated hate-filled agenda?

Please also read the petition -( http://www.petitiononline.com/stopIER/petition.html ) which shows the real face of Witzel.

Even a person like Prof. Shiva Bajpai who worked on the changes has been accused by Witzel as a "Hindutva sympathizer". I have been following Witzel since last several years because of his pet Aryan Invasion Theory. All Indian academics, scholars, archeologists like Dr. B.B. Lal (retired Director General of Archeological Survey of India) and any one who has argued against this theory have been branded by Witzel and his pal, Steve Farmer as "Hindu Fundamentalists," RSS and Sangh Hindu Nationalists etc. Prof. BB Lal was involved in actual excavations of several Harrapa sites in Gujarat and other places and has written extensively on the subject of Aryan Invasion. The only thing that Witzel and his pal, Steve Farmer have done is to ridicule and brand these scholars instead of arguing intelligently in a scholarly manner.

In order to fight his politically motivated anti-Hinduism battle, he has recruited the Marxists historians like Romila Thapper and Marxist organizations like " Friends of South Asia" and "Coalition Against Communalism" who are in the forefront to denigrate and demean Hindus and Hinduism. If you want to know more about this organization's activities and who controls them, I can give you a lot of details. Marxist historian like Romila Thapper and Panniker don't know a word of Sanskrit and still they claim to be 'experts' on Hinduism. Steve Farmer, buddy of Witzel can't speak of a word of Sanskrit and still he is called an expert on Hinduism. Whom are they trying to fool?

5. Indian history: Most times so called historical facts are written by the victors and not the vanquished. It is the same case with the Indian history. For the last 250 years, the British and Europeans have written the history to suite their colonial regime. If you want to know more about the ancient India, you should read the accounts of people like Al Baruni who came to India with Mohammed Gazanavi and the Chinese scholars visiting India. Also, read the 11 volumes of 'The History and culture of the Indian People' by R.C. Majumdar. You should also know that Max Muller, the main architect of the Aryan Invasion Theory was hired by the East India Co. for ten thousand pounds in 1850s with the stated mandate to interpret the Vedas and other Hindu scriptures as if they were primitive and mythological so that Hindus will give up their religion. If you want any references on Max Muller, please let me know. What Witzel is trying to do is to only carry forward the legacy of his country man, Max Muller.

6. CA Board of Education has violated its own rule and guidelines. For your information, the Christians, Muslims, Jews and Buddhists were asked to submit the changes to be made about their respective religions in the textbooks but Hindus were denied this opportunity. All the changes asked by the Muslims and Christians were accepted by the Board without referring to any outsiders or any non-Muslims or Non-Christians.. In case of Hindus, this procedure was not followed. Why was Witzel, a non-Hindu allowed to stop this legal procedure? This is nothing but a blatant discrimination against Hindus.

7. Dalits: Who are these dalits? Most of them are Christian dalits who were brought in by Witzel and his Marxist friends. The word Dalit is used only in some parts of Maharahstra. The ancient India does not have word like 'Dalit'. The word used by Gandhi was 'Harijan'.
If you are teaching ancient India, why bring in a word like 'Dalit'? You may be aware that several dalits Christians in India have strongly protested against the higher caste Christians who do not allow them to their churches. If the dalits want their name to be kept in the textbooks, they should also accept that the Indian Christians of higher castes discriminate against them. This is a politically motivated move by the Christian evangelical group to defame Hindus and Hinduism.

8. <b>Your letter to WSJ smacks of virulent anti-Hinduism and represents a shoddy scholarship based on preconceived notions about Hindus like your new found idol, Witzel. How can you teach Hinduism when you can't even speak or read/write a word of Sanskrit? </b> All major Hindu scriptures are in Sanskrit and without its knowledge there is no way one can claim expertise in Hinduism. <b>By writing a Hindu bashing letter in WSJ, you have tried to gain some cheap popularity amongst some of your friends and academic circle. But you cannot fool majority of Hindus who can see through your true colors behind the facade of your academic profession.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

At which point he puts tail between legs and claims how Important and Busy he is:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->> ----- Original Message -----
From: "Raju Thomas" <\>
To: xxxxx
Cc: yyyyyy
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: On the Cal Textbook dispute

Dear XXX and YYYY ,

Received your responses.  Many of your points are well taken.

I have two papers to finish for conferences in Chicago and San Diego at end March and have to focus on this. My paper is going to be the lead chapter for a book on the world impact of American hegemony to be published by Cambridge. It is not about Hinduism or South Asia.

XXXX, on your first point, do you know how difficult or near impossible it is to get a letter, let alone an article, in the NYT, WSJ and WashPost?  Letters have to be less than 150 words.  My letter was about the right of Witzel to express his views as an academic and not appease lobbies or reigious groups.  I dont have to include a confession that I am an ignorant fool, despite my affiliations.

XXX, we are all entitled to our views.  As I said, there is no hate and smear campaign against Hindus and Hinduism in the West, or Indians and India.  These criticisms are mere pinpricks which Americans dont even notice except for you who is going through everything with a magnifying glass.  You are being unnecessarily paranoid.  Everybody has to expect some criticism and many stupid observations.   Now back to my papers on American hegemony and the use of force in a world without countervailing power.

Best wishes.


Rewriting history

By the way

Hafizur Rahman


Which did not impress people:

I do not see the point of writing a short letter has to do with the subject.  If one cannot cover the issue properly in the length, then one should not write at all.  After all, was Raju expected to write on the subject.  After all, as he himself would admit, this is not the subject of his specialisation.

Re: being paranoid.  This is a classic way of deflecting the issue.  Of course, we Hindutvavadis would be sensitive to issues concerning us.

Just as Raju would be sensitive to issues concerning the happening in Serbia.  Hence the sentence ("These criticisms are mere pinpricks which Americans dont even notice except for you who is going through everything with a magnifying glass.) would apply to his work.  So, do we say that he is not doing anything useful?

We Hindutavavadis get upset when people like Courtright, Doniger, Witzel, etc., denigrate Hinduism because they are the ones who are supposed to teach Hinduism.  I do not know if it is correct, but I have been told that Prof Courtright berated a colleague for teaching Hinduism in a favourable light.  We cannot ignore such barbs.

To understand the problem, the enclosed article is relevant.  Also, I would like to know what Raju has to say about Prof Witzel in light of the articles in The Crimson.


So he wriggles some more with the Serbian Defense: (suddenly the two papers are forgotten)

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> f everyone said I will not write a letter to the editor unless I can cover everything I want to say, they will never get a letter to the editor of the WSJ, NYT or WAshPost

(HOW SAAAADDDD!!!!!!)  <!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo-->  <!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo-->

What was done to Serbs and Serbia has n comparison or relevance to the treatment of Hindus and Hinduism  The Norwegian Institute has now completed a case by case, name by name study of the death toll in Bosnia and has come up with figure of about 70,000 of which 65 percent was Muslim, 30 percent Serb and 5 percent Croat. Holbrooke claimed that Serbs had killed 300,000 Muslims, others claim half million.  Serbs have been depicted as pigs and Nazis. The Serbian Orthodox Church has been demonized while the Croats found shelter under the broader Catholic Church and the support of <b>Pope John Paul II who visited Croatia 3 times and gave sainthood to Croatian Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac when there are pictures of him standing next to Hitler giving the Nazi salute.</b>

(OOOOO!!!! Wonder if IRFFAN knows about that? Someone ought to post this under the comments section there..)

The problem with Hinduism is that nobody pays attention to it unlike Islam for good reason.  Hindus and Indians are seen as respectful, peaceful, hardworking and very successful people in the West. Islam and Muslims carry a negative image. Few people know what Hinduism is about except for occasional images of several gods with different faces.  When I ask my India class at the beginning what do you know about Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Jainism and Zorastrianism, American students did not have the slightest clue about Hinduism, and had not even heard of Jainism and Zorastrianism.

I will be officially retired on July 1st.  I hope to work on a couple of novels called "The Lives of the
Brown Sahibs and Memshahibs of Bombay," dealing with the lives of "foreign returned" Indians in Bombay between 1965 and 1969, <b>where many of us spoke with phony Oxford accents and prided ourselves on being members of the Bombay Gymkhana which once excluded dogs and Indians.  </b>

<i><b>(FIGURES, DOESN'T IT? )</b> </i>

And another novel called "Conspiracy on the Danube," dealing with a Serbian plan to kill ...  ????  (maybe the Pope or Bill Clinton) triggering off a Third World War when the US starts to bomb Serbia and Russia and China intervenes. 

<i><b>(DREAM ON, SLOB-O-DAN! )</b> </i>

I have 9th floor penthouse apartment with a panoramic view of the beautiful blue Danube.  I get up every morning and see it through my bedroom window, and there is a huge open verandah the size of a room overlooking the Danube and the Belgrade skyline.

As regards the article in the Siliconeer, the arguments will be mostly convincing to those who read it without preconceived notions, and those who are already inclined in that direction.  It will not change the minds of those who are against this perspective.

Best wishes.


Ah!!!! This is like having a 19th-floor veranda overlooking the sewage flowing out from between the ears of the entire South Asia / IER Faculty! The aroma of sheer intellectualism! Scholar-ships floating down the river, carrying the funded Chairs on deck!

I invite Professor Thomas to contribute his stellar excellence at this forum so that we may debate his views and ours in OPEN, UNEDITED (unlike IER and RISA) but moderated for civilization (unlike OUTLOOK etc) debate. I am sure this post will be here and on GOOGLE on July2 when he has more time on his hands as a Retired expert on Hinduism.
Please send India-forum link to Raju Thomas, atleast liar should know what rest of world think about him and we can help his future would have been student also.
As someone else said, giving shelter to these Syrian Xtian refugee traitors was one of the biggest mistakes Hindus ever made, now we are getting pay back from these ungrateful wretches (who also popularised the myth of St.Thomas visiting India and getting killed by Hindus to malign us) when infact it is Xtians who actually butchered Hindus under the Goan Inquisition.
<b>Harvard board weighs president's fate before vote</b> <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->BOSTON (Reuters) - Harvard University's governing board is considering whether to intervene before the Ivy League school's president faces an unprecedented second vote of no confidence over his leadership, three newspapers reported this weekend. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Witzel should be next.
is the video of Witzel's debate with Maheshwari available online? what about the transcript?
The BOARD should be next. On that Petition to Support Witzel, by the Born-Again Enlightened IER ass-kisser Arun Bernard Vajpayee, I see that both Snow White and Ali Baba have posted complaints about the Seven Dwarfs and the Forty Thieves gone missing. Evidently wondering whether those are the 47 Prominent Academics who signed Witzel's hate letter to the California Board.

I think they are looking in the wrong place. They should look at the Harvard Bored of Trustys and Overseers.

Wonder what they have been "Overseeing" if idiots like Summers and Witzel can go on for decades without any oversight. <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Also Hindus dont need Witzels. There are plenty of Gungadins to go around..


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->They also say that it would serve the dalits' cause better if the textbooks said that "untouchability is a living reality in India," instead of simply going by the Hindu groups' suggestion that the books say that it is illegal to treat someone as an untouchable, Vikram Masson, co-founder of Navya Shastra, a U.S.-based non-profit organization that speaks out against caste-related issues, told India-West.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Textbooks Proselytize for Allah

by Kalavai Venkat.

TinyURL is http://tinyurl.com/ndgzq</b>
The Bigot Genius of the Year Award goes to :

Rama Krishna Bhupathi
1347 Aberford Dr
San Jose CA 95131


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Folks,
I just filed a protest letter with the California Board of Education against some of the hindutva changes. Here is the letter for your perusal. The board is already overwhelmed with the responses and confused. So I only restricted myself to issues of serious concern for us.



19th February 2006

Ms. Glee Johnson, President  and  Members of the History-Social Science Committee
California State Board of Education
1430 N Street
Sacramento, California 95814

cc: Mr. Roger Magyar, Executive Director and Mr. Tom Adams, Director, Curriculum Framework and Instructional Resources Division

Subject  : Edits to Ancient Indian History and Hinduism in Grade 6 Text Books in the context of untouchables and dalits.

Dear Ms. Johnson and Members of the committee,

            <b>We, the untouchables (dalits) of India and elsewhere in the world</b> are concerned about the sectarian hindutva changes being incorporated into 6th grade the history and social sciences textbooks. I noticed the recommendations by Vedic Foundation (VF) and the Hindu Education Foundation (HEF) that have been published on the CBE's website. I want to bring it to your notice that the changes suggested by the above Hindu organizations with regard to untouchables(dalits) and the caste system are factually incorrect and completely suppresses the ground realities of the past and the present. I would like to take this opportunity to present our viewpoint and suggest remedies to correct the anomalies. The proposed edit/corrections along with our view points and suggested changes are listed below.

q       McMillian/McGraw Hill's Edit No 51 (Page 103 of the Edit/Corrections Doc "Page 252 picture: remove picture of the Untouchable"):  

Removing the picture is masking and hiding the dalit identity. This deletion silences the crucial mention of Dalits, and the staggering injustices and crimes committed against them, from   time immorial. Our children need to know the continued existence of untouchablity. The picture depicts the true social and economic status of dalits. Manusmrthi the Hindu religious text   outlines in great detail the origin of the "untouchables" and explains the genesis of Dalit hamlets (busthies) that one sees outside most Indian villages today. (slokhas 10.49-54 )..Hence the picture is appropriate as it is and needs to be retained in the original textbook.

q       McMillian/McGraw Hill's Edit No 52 (Page 103 of the Edit/Corrections Doc "Page 252 last paragraph?

The edit which unfortunately has been accepted by the AdHoc committee as   well as the SBE/CDE says " There was one group that did not belong to any varna. Its members were called untouchables because they performed dirty work such as skinning animals or handling dead bodies." This statement is contrary to historical evidence and is an insult to the community. One becomes an untouchable by birth and not because one chooses a particular profession. Untouchables are outside the Hindu caste system and therefore forced to do jobs other Indians thought was too dirty. Even though there are thousands of dalits in India who no longer do any dirty jobs , they are still considered untouchables or outcastes . Therefore I suggest that the text be changed as follows:
"There was one group that did not belong to any caste. Its members came to be called untouchables."

q       McMillian/McGraw Hill's Edit No 79 , 82,83,93  (Page 108/109/111 of the Edit/Corrections Doc " Page 229 depicts .."

The edit talks of replacing caste with class. Caste is a social term whereas class is an economic term. It is the caste not class that puts a hindu in a social hierarchy. A hindu's social hierarchy is determined at birth. Replacing caste with class is entirely incorrect   and gives a completely a wrong notion of caste system.

We believe that the caste system is the single most important, continuous, social phenomenon that has been unique to Hinduism for over 3,000 years. It is caste, not varna or class that should find a major place in any history book on ancient India. Therefore we suggest that the word caste be restored to these edits.

We hope that the staff and the Board Committee will give careful consideration to the above suggested remedies, and will restore historical accuracy to the narratives on Indian History and Hinduism in Grade 6 History-Social Science text books.

Rama Krishna Bhupathi
1347 Aberford Dr
San Jose CA 95131


Ever heard of anyone writing

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> We the sh1theads of America and the world..<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I mean, here he is, living in 21st century America, and HE CONSIDERS HIMSELF AN "UNTOUCHABLE"!

So who's the bigot? This bugger is about as phony as all these 'Dalit Activists' get. These fellows want make DAMN SURE that caste oppression continues - and as someone pointed out on the OUTLOOK discussion, it persists mainly where Conversion is rampant - Tamil Nadu, W.Bengal and Bihar, where the government and the police have been in the hands of anti-India, 400% corrupt thugs who CLAIM to be pro-Proletariat.

Here's the proof. I bet you this Rama Krishna Bhupathi is either a Communist or a Conversionist, long-since converted, but still holding on to his own "Untouchability".

I'll support anyone who suffers discrimination based on birth, color, gender, national origin, or religion. But not a sh1thead who makes money off and brags about being an "Untouchable" in modern society.

Check above link, No surprise here Rama Krishna Bhupathi is with <b>Satinath Chaudhary</b>

Most inetresting is another Christian Dalit on list "Benjamin Paul Kalia". By the way Kaila's are Saraswat Brahmins of Punjab.

Now we see NRI Dalit. Soon we will see NRI Brahmin and other new caste.

Here is <b>Link</b> Dalit Christian. I am bit confused now, is Dalit is a Hindusim problem or its a Christian problem.

Plus check "India Committee of the Netherlands" is also present.

Check this link where Rama Krishna Bhupathi's news received comments from editor, not sure whether he is Editor.<b>Link</b>
<b>When the White Western racist leadership of Jews did not accept some Russian and Black Jews from Africa will they admit the Dalit, the Black Untouchables of India, into their closed circle? Some of these AP Dalits claiming to be Jews did approach us some years back. We impressed them of the futility of making such a claim. Yet some Protestant Dalit Christians are continuing their efforts to make a fast buck </b>

This is intersting <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Rama Krishna Bhupathi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Sometime last year I distributed Ambedkar CD's to the local library.
Ambedkar's popularity does not worry me much. Awareness and popularity of
Gandhi is on the decline , while that of Ambedkar's is on the ascendance. It
is only a matter of time before Ambedkar catches up with gandhi.

<b>For the  last two years we in the Bay Area have been  celebrating
Ambedkar's birthday. Nothing of that sort was heard about Gandhi. These
days even the hindus do not like him. Not so much from the Congress party

To popularise Ambedkar  in the western world we need to look to the
internet. Nobody borrows books any more. More books  in the libraries are
being replaced with CDs/DVD's. We should put more videos , media files on
the internet for people to watch and learn.


He is not Hindu but his name is "Rama" "Krishana".

I am confused, Dalit is Hindusim problem or Christian or Jews. Or its a color problem..
<!--QuoteBegin-Arun Fosa+Feb 21 2006, 09:09 AM-->QUOTE(Arun Fosa @ Feb 21 2006, 09:09 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->

So who's the bigot? This bugger is about as phony as all these 'Dalit Activists' get. These fellows want make DAMN SURE that caste oppression continues - <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So you believe that caste oppression continues? To continue, there should be one already.
Summers to quit as Harvard president: report

Hopefully they'll get rid of other racists in their Sanskrit dept - Michael Witzel.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Most inetresting is another Christian Dalit on list "Benjamin Paul Kalia". By the way Kaila's are Saraswat Brahmins of Punjab.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why the hell is that guy claiming he is a Dalit if Kalia (remember Saurabh Kalia) is a Brahmin last name?
Kalia's are Brahmin, Their gotra is Bharadwaj; their Veda is Shukla Yajurveda, Vajasaneyi Samhita. Initially; they are from Kashmir, after Islamic invasion they migrated towards Punjab plains. But after facing atrocities in Punjab plains they moved to mountains of Himachal. Majority of population of Mata Chintpurni temple village are Kalia’s.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Then why the hell is that guy claiming he is a Dalit if Kalia (remember Saurabh Kalia) is a Brahmin last name? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a biggest fraud. Just to get reservation or attention. Anyway he is convert, he is just trying to justify his coversion or whatever. There is no shortage of crooks.
<!--QuoteBegin-jyothibasu+Feb 21 2006, 03:42 PM-->QUOTE(jyothibasu @ Feb 21 2006, 03:42 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Arun Fosa+Feb 21 2006, 09:09 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Arun Fosa @ Feb 21 2006, 09:09 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
So who's the bigot? This bugger is about as phony as all these 'Dalit Activists' get. These fellows want make DAMN SURE that caste oppression continues - <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So you believe that caste oppression continues? To continue, there should be one already.

Sure, jyothibasu, glad to see that some glimmer of intelligence has entered the Red mind. The Dalits in India are appealing to the Supreme Court to keep HINDU Dalit Status AFTER they converted to Accepting Jesus, because, Jesus' followers apparently make them clean toilets so they can videotape it and put it on the internet. There has ALWAYS been Christian oppression against most of the people of the world - go see what happened during the Crusades, and very recently to the Muslims of Bosnia, and to Africans. All Saved By Jesus. Gave them AIDS too, for FREE!
I was particularly pointing to the caste opression in India. Even if many denies, it is a reality. Dalit leaders say that in public.

That does not have anyting to do with crusades or Christian oppression.

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