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Harvard Ethics: An Oxymoron

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Harvard Ethics: An Oxymoron
Who Needs Harvard?

The Atlantic Monthly, October 2004

Gregg Easterbrook, Visiting Fellow, Economic Studies


Gregg Easterbrook
Gregg Easterbrook

Today almost everyone seems to assume that the critical moment in young people's lives is finding out which colleges have accepted them. Winning admission to an elite school is imagined to be a golden passport to success; for bright students, failing to do so is seen as a major life setback. As a result, the fixation on getting into a super-selective college or university has never been greater. Parents' expectations that their children will attend top schools have "risen substantially" in the past decade, says Jim Conroy, the head of college counseling at New Trier High School, in Winnetka, Illinois. He adds, "Parents regularly tell me, 'I want whatever is highest-ranked.'" Shirley Levin, of Rockville, Maryland, who has worked as a college-admissions consultant for twenty-three years, concurs: "Never have stress levels for high school students been so high about where they get in, or about the idea that if you don't get into a glamour college, your life is somehow ruined."

Admissions mania focuses most intensely on what might be called the Gotta-Get-Ins, the colleges with maximum allure. The twenty-five Gotta-Get-Ins of the moment, according to admissions officers, are the Ivies (Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton, and Yale), plus Amherst, Berkeley, Caltech, Chicago, Duke, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Northwestern, Pomona, Smith, Stanford, Swarthmore, Vassar, Washington University in St. Louis, Wellesley, and Williams. Some students and their parents have always been obsessed with getting into the best colleges, of course. But as a result of rising population, rising affluence, and rising awareness of the value of education, millions of families are now in a state of nervous collapse regarding college admissions. Moreover, although the total number of college applicants keeps increasing, the number of freshman slots at the elite colleges has changed little. Thus competition for elite-college admission has grown ever more cutthroat. Each year more and more bright, qualified high school seniors don't receive the coveted thick envelope from a Gotta-Get-In.

But what if the basis for all this stress and disappointment—the idea that getting into an elite college makes a big difference in life—is wrong? What if it turns out that going to the "highest ranked" school hardly matters at all?

The researchers Alan Krueger and Stacy Berg Dale began investigating this question, and in 1999 produced a study that dropped a bomb on the notion of elite-college attendance as essential to success later in life. Krueger, a Princeton economist, and Dale, affiliated with the Andrew Mellon Foundation, began by comparing students who entered Ivy League and similar schools in 1976 with students who entered less prestigious colleges the same year. They found, for instance, that by 1995 Yale graduates were earning 30 percent more than Tulane graduates, which seemed to support the assumption that attending an elite college smoothes one's path in life.

But maybe the kids who got into Yale were simply more talented or hardworking than those who got into Tulane. To adjust for this, Krueger and Dale studied what happened to students who were accepted at an Ivy or a similar institution, but chose instead to attend a less sexy, "moderately selective" school. It turned out that such students had, on average, the same income twenty years later as graduates of the elite colleges. Krueger and Dale found that for students bright enough to win admission to a top school, later income "varied little, no matter which type of college they attended." In other words, the student, not the school, was responsible for the success.

Research does find an unmistakable advantage to getting a bachelor's degree. In 2002, according to Census Bureau figures, the mean income of college graduates was almost double that of those holding only high school diplomas. Trends in the knowledge-based economy suggest that college gets more valuable every year. For those graduating from high school today and in the near future, failure to attend at least some college may mean a McJobs existence for all but the most talented or unconventional.

But, as Krueger has written, "that you go to college is more important than where you go." The advantages conferred by the most selective schools may be overstated. Consider how many schools are not in the top twenty-five, yet may be only slightly less good than the elites: Bard, Barnard, Bates, Bowdoin, Brandeis, Bryn Mawr, Bucknell, Carleton, Carnegie Mellon, Claremont McKenna, Colby, Colgate, Colorado College, Davidson, Denison, Dickinson, Emory, George Washington, Grinnell, Hamilton, Harvey Mudd, Haverford, Holy Cross, Kenyon, Lafayette, Macalester, Middlebury, Mount Holyoke, Notre Dame, Oberlin, Occidental, Reed, Rice, Sarah Lawrence, Skidmore, Spelman, St. John's of Annapolis, Trinity of Connecticut, Union, Vanderbilt, Washington and Lee, Wesleyan, Whitman, William and Mary, and the universities of Michigan and Virginia. Then consider the many other schools that may lack the je ne sais quoi of the top destinations but are nonetheless estimable, such as Boston College, Case Western, Georgia Tech, Rochester, SUNY-Binghamton, Texas Christian, Tufts, the University of Illinois at Champaign Urbana, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the University of Texas at Austin, the University of Washington, the University of Wisconsin at Madison, and the University of California campuses at Davis, Irvine, Los Angeles, and San Diego. (These lists are meant not to be exhaustive but merely to make the point that there are many, many good schools in America.) "Any family ought to be thrilled to have a child admitted to Madison, but parents obsessed with prestige would not consider Madison a win," says David Adamany, the president of Temple University. "The child who is rejected at Harvard will probably go on to receive a superior education and have an outstanding college experience at any of dozens of other places, but start off feeling inadequate and burdened by the sense of disappointing his or her parents. Many parents now set their children up to consider themselves failures if they don't get the acceptance letter from a super-selective school."

Beyond the Krueger-Dale research, there is abundant anecdotal evidence that any of a wide range of colleges can equip its graduates for success. Consider the United States Senate. This most exclusive of clubs currently lists twenty-six members with undergraduate degrees from the Gotta-Get-Ins—a disproportionately good showing considering the small percentage of students who graduate from these schools. But the diversity of Senate backgrounds is even more striking. Fully half of U.S. senators are graduates of public universities, and many went to "states"—among them Chico State, Colorado State, Iowa State, Kansas State, Louisiana State, Michigan State, North Carolina State, Ohio State, Oklahoma State, Oregon State, Penn State, San Jose State, South Dakota State, Utah State, and Washington State. Or consider the CEOs of the top ten Fortune 500 corporations: only four went to elite schools. H. Lee Scott Jr., of Wal-Mart, the world's largest corporation, is a graduate of Pittsburg State, in Pittsburg, Kansas. Or consider Rhodes scholars: this year only sixteen of the thirty-two American recipients hailed from elite colleges; the others attended Hobart, Millsaps, Morehouse, St. Olaf, the University of the South, Utah State, and Wake Forest, among other non-elites. Steven Spielberg was rejected by the prestigious film schools at USC and UCLA; he attended Cal State Long Beach, and seems to have done all right for himself. Roger Straus, of Farrar, Straus & Giroux, one of the most influential people in postwar American letters, who died last spring at eighty-seven, was a graduate of the University of Missouri. "[Students] have been led to believe that if you go to X school, then Y will result, and this just isn't true," says Judith Shapiro, the president of Barnard. "It's good to attend a good college, but there are many good colleges. Getting into Princeton or Barnard just isn't a life-or-death matter."

That getting into Princeton isn't a life-or-death matter hit home years ago for Loren Pope, then the education editor of The New York Times. For his 1990 book, Looking Beyond the Ivy League, Pope scanned Who's Who entries of the 1980s, compiling figures on undergraduate degrees. (This was at a time when Who's Who was still the social directory of American distinction—before the marketing of Who's Who in Southeastern Middle School Girls' Tennis and innumerable other spinoffs.) Pope found that the schools that produced the most Who's Who entrants were Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Chicago, and Caltech; that much conformed to expectations. But other colleges near the top in Who's Who productivity included DePauw, Holy Cross, Wabash, Washington and Lee, and Wheaton of Illinois. Pope found that Bowdoin, Denison, Franklin & Marshall, Millsaps, and the University of the South were better at producing Who's Who entrants than Georgetown or the University of Virginia, and that Beloit bested Duke.

These findings helped persuade Pope that the glamour schools were losing their status as the gatekeepers of accomplishment. Today Pope campaigns for a group of forty colleges that he considers nearly the equals of the elite, but more personal, more pleasant, less stress-inducing, and—in some cases, at least—less expensive. Institutions like Hope, Rhodes, and Ursinus do not inspire the same kind of admissions lust as the Ivies, but they are places where parents should feel very good about sending their kids. (A list of the well-regarded non-elite colleges Pope champions can be found at www.ctcl.com.)

The Gotta-Get-Ins can no longer claim to be the more or less exclusive gatekeepers to graduate school. Once, it was assumed that an elite-college undergraduate degree was required for admission to a top law or medical program. No more: 61 percent of new students at Harvard Law School last year had received their bachelor's degrees outside the Ivy League. "Every year I have someone who went to Harvard College but can't get into Harvard Law, plus someone who went to the University of Maryland and does get into Harvard Law," Shirley Levin says. For Looking Beyond the Ivy League, Pope analyzed eight consecutive sets of scores on the medical-school aptitude test. Caltech produced the highest-scoring students, but Carleton outdid Harvard, Muhlenberg topped Dartmouth, and Ohio Wesleyan finished ahead of Berkeley.

The elites still lead in producing undergraduates who go on for doctorates (Caltech had the highest percentage during the 1990s), but Earlham, Grinnell, Kalamazoo, Kenyon, Knox, Lawrence, Macalester, Oberlin, and Wooster do better on this scale than many higher-status schools. In the 1990s little Earlham, with just 1,200 students, produced a higher percentage of graduates who have since received doctorates than did Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, Northwestern, Penn, or Vassar.

That non-elite schools do well in Who's Who and in sending students on to graduate school or to the Senate suggests that many overestimate the impact of the Gotta-Get-Ins not only on future earnings but on interesting career paths as well. For example, I graduated from Colorado College, a small liberal arts institution that is admired but, needless to say, is no Stanford. While I was there, in the mid-1970s, wandering around the campus were disheveled kids whose names have since become linked with an array of achievements: Neal Baer, M.D., an executive producer for the NBC show ER; Frank Bowman, a former federal prosecutor often quoted as the leading specialist on federal sentencing guidelines; Katharine DeShaw, the director of fundraising for the Los Angeles County Museum of Art; David Hendrickson, the chairman of the political-science department at Colorado College; Richard Kilbride, the managing director of ING Asset Management, which administers about $450 billion; Robert Krimmer, a television actor; Margaret Liu, M.D., a senior adviser to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and one of the world's foremost authorities on vaccines; David Malpass, the chief economist for Bear Stearns; Mark McConnell, an animator who has won Emmys for television graphics; Jim McDowell, the vice-president of marketing for BMW North America; Marcia McNutt, the CEO of the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute; Michael Nava, the author of the Henry Rios detective novels; Peter Neupert, the CEO of Drugstore.com; Anne Reifenberg, the deputy business editor of the Los Angeles Times; Deborah Caulfield Rybak, a co-author of an acclaimed book about tobacco litigation; Ken Salazar, the attorney general of Colorado and a Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate in 2004; Thom Shanker, the Pentagon correspondent for The New York Times; Joe Simitian, named to the 2003 Scientific American list of the fifty most influential people in technology; and Eric Sondermann, the founder of one of Denver's top public-relations firms.

In terms of students who went on to interesting or prominent lives, Colorado College may have done just as well in this period as Columbia or Cornell or any other Gotta-Get-In destination. Doubtless other colleges could make the same claim for themselves for this or other periods; I'm simply citing the example I know personally. The point is that for some time the center of gravity for achievement has been shifting away from the topmost colleges.

Fundamental to that shift has been a steady improvement in the educational quality of non-elite schools. Many college officials I interviewed said approximately the same thing: that a generation or two ago it really was a setback if a top student didn't get admitted to an Ivy or one of a few other elite destinations, because only a small number of places were offering a truly first-rate education. But since then the non-elites have improved dramatically. "Illinois Wesleyan is a significantly better college than it was in the 1950s," says Janet McNew, the school's provost, "whereas Harvard has probably changed much less dramatically in the past half century." That statement could apply to many other colleges. Pretty good schools of the past have gotten much better, while the great schools have remained more or less the same. The result is that numerous colleges have narrowed the gap with the elites.

How many colleges now provide an excellent education? Possibly a hundred, suggests Jim Conroy, of New Trier; probably more than two hundred, Shirley Levin says. The improvement is especially noteworthy at large public universities. Michigan and Virginia have become "public Ivies," and numerous state-run universities now offer a top-flight education. Whether or not students take a public university up on its offer of a good education is another matter: large, chaotic campuses may create an environment in which it's possible to slide by with four years of drinking beer and playing video games, whereas small private colleges usually notice students who try this. Yet the rising quality of public universities is important, because these schools provide substantial numbers of slots, often with discounted in-state tuition. Many families who cannot afford private colleges now have appealing alternatives at public universities.

One reason so many colleges have improved is the profusion of able faculty members. The education wave fostered by the GI Bill drew many talented people into academia. Because tenured openings at the glamour schools are subject to slow turnover, this legion of new teachers fanned out to other colleges, raising the quality of instruction at non-elite schools. While this was happening, the country became more prosperous, and giving to colleges—including those below the glamour level—shot up. When the first GI Bill cohort began to die, big gifts started flowing to the non-elites. (Earlier this year one graduate bequeathed Pitt's law school $4.25 million.) Today many non-elite schools have significant financial resources: Emory has an endowment of $4.5 billion, Case Western an endowment of $1.4 billion, and even little Colby an endowment of $323 million—an amount that a few decades ago would have seemed unimaginable for a small liberal arts school without a national profile.

As colleges below the top were improving, the old WASP insider system was losing its grip on business and other institutions. There was a time when an Ivy League diploma was vital to career advancement in many places, because an Ivy grad could be assumed to be from the correct upper-middle-class Protestant background. Today an Ivy diploma reveals nothing about a person's background, and favoritism in hiring and promotion is on the decline; most businesses would rather have a Lehigh graduate who performs at a high level than a Brown graduate who doesn't. Law firms do remain exceptionally status-conscious—some college counselors believe that law firms still hire associates based partly on where they were undergraduates. But the majority of employers aren't looking for status degrees, and some may even avoid candidates from the top schools, on the theory that such aspirants have unrealistic expectations of quick promotion.

Relationships labeled ironic are often merely coincidental. But it is genuinely ironic that as non-elite colleges have improved in educational quality and financial resources, and favoritism toward top-school degrees has faded, getting into an elite school has nonetheless become more of a national obsession.

Which brings us back to the Krueger-Dale thesis. Can we really be sure Hamilton is nearly as good as Harvard?

Some analysts maintain that there are indeed significant advantages to the most selective schools. For instance, a study by Caroline Hoxby, a Harvard economist who has researched college outcomes, suggests that graduates of elite schools do earn more than those of comparable ability who attended other colleges. Hoxby studied male students who entered college in 1982, and adjusted for aptitude, though she used criteria different from those employed by Krueger and Dale. She projected that among students of similar aptitude, those who attended the most selective colleges would earn an average of $2.9 million during their careers; those who attended the next most selective colleges would earn $2.8 million; and those who attended all other colleges would average $2.5 million. This helped convince Hoxby that top applicants should, in fact, lust after the most exclusive possibilities.

"There's a clear benefit to the top fifty or so colleges," she says. "Connections made at the top schools matter. It's not so much that you meet the son of a wealthy banker and his father offers you a job, but that you meet specialists and experts who are on campus for conferences and speeches. The conference networking scene is much better at the elite universities." Hoxby estimates that about three quarters of the educational benefit a student receives is determined by his or her effort and abilities, and should be more or less the same at any good college. The remaining quarter, she thinks, is determined by the status of the school—higher-status schools have more resources and better networking opportunities, and surround top students with other top students.

"Today there are large numbers of colleges with good faculty, so faculty probably isn't the explanation for the advantage at the top," Hoxby says. "Probably there is not much difference between the quality of the faculty at Princeton and at Rutgers. But there's a lot of difference between the students at those places, and some of every person's education comes from interaction with other students." Being in a super-competitive environment may cause a few students to have nervous breakdowns, but many do their best work under pressure, and the contest is keenest at the Gotta-Get-Ins. Hoxby notes that some medium-rated public universities have established internal "honors colleges" to attract top performers who might qualify for the best destinations. "Students at honors colleges in the public universities do okay, but not as well as they would do at the elite schools," Hoxby argues. The reason, she feels, is that they're not surrounded by other top-performing students.

There is one group of students that even Krueger and Dale found benefited significantly from attending elite schools: those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Kids from poor families seem to profit from exposure to Amherst or Northwestern much more than kids from well-off families. Why? One possible answer is that they learn sociological cues and customs to which they have not been exposed before. In his 2003 book, Limbo, Alfred Lubrano, the son of a bricklayer, analyzed what happens when people from working-class backgrounds enter the white-collar culture. Part of their socialization, Lubrano wrote, is learning to act dispassionate and outwardly composed at all times, regardless of how they might feel inside. Students from well-off communities generally arrive at college already trained to masquerade as calm. Students from disadvantaged backgrounds may benefit from exposure to this way of carrying oneself—a trait that may be particularly in evidence at the top colleges.

It's understandable that so many high schoolers and their nervous parents are preoccupied with the idea of getting into an elite college. The teen years are a series of tests: of scholastic success, of fitting in, of prowess at throwing and catching balls, of skill at pleasing adults. These tests seem to culminate in a be-all-and-end-all judgment about the first eighteen years of a person's life, and that judgment is made by college admissions officers. The day college acceptance letters arrive is to teens the moment of truth: they learn what the adult world really thinks of them, and receive an omen of whether or not their lives will be successful. Of course, grown-up land is full of Yale graduates who are unhappy failures and Georgia Tech grads who run big organizations or have a great sense of well-being. But teens can't be expected to understand this. All they can be sure of is that colleges will accept or reject them, and it's like being accepted or rejected for a date—only much more intense, and their parents know all the details.

Surely it is impossible to do away with the trials of the college-application process altogether. But college admissions would be less nerve-racking, and hang less ominously over the high school years, if it were better understood that a large number of colleges and universities can now provide students with an excellent education, sending them onward to healthy incomes and appealing careers. Harvard is marvelous, but you don't have to go there to get your foot in the door of life.

© Copyright 2004 The Atlantic Monthly
  Reply
Here is another reason why Harvard tolerates the Hindu-phobic agenda of Witzel and his ilk, assisted by Indian leftists and commies who have an alliance of their own with the Muslims.

Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal donates $20 million to support the Harvard University Islamic Studies Program

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/...lamic_gift.html


  Reply
<b>George "Slobo Raju" Thomas flushed out of dump</b>

See where this Midwestern dump seems to have drunk "Milk of Magnesia" and eased out Our Greatest Secular MealyMouth who was obviously a drain on their budget. Read carefully to see the standard of writing of a "senior professor" in the College of Rats and Sciences at this dump.

It's the sheer hollowness of this twerp that comes through loud and clear. The guy thinks that readers will actually NOT LAUGH at him?


Quote:From: "George C. Thomas" <gcthomas at ameritech.net>
To: gcthomas2 at yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 18:42:47 -0500
Subject: Retired officially
Colleagues:

I am now formally retired. Yesterday, September 14, Marquette University held a farewell reception for me at their Haggerty Museum of Art reception lobby. Such a retirement reception has never been given to any retiring faculty before me, as far as I know.

<!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo--> they impart in the baseketball college.

Quote:I ran the Allis-Chalmers Distinguished Professorship program bringing in as visiting professor Joseph Nye of Harvard, Leonard Binder of Chicago, George Rathjens of MIT, Ambassador Walter Carrington and Ambasador Denis Ross of the State Department and the US mediator between Israelis and Palestinians.

(Translation: The guy has been delegated the job of organizing tours for the past several years... <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo--> )

<b>I have received emails from scholars and policy makers expressing hope that I will not retire from all my writing and analysis, about the contribution I made to their understanding on international, nuclear and South Asia issues. They hoped that I would continue to write even more in my retirement. </b>

Yes, we know. Mostly telling him to stay in Slobostan and, since he is so angelic, to try flying straight out over the Danube.

NOW it gets REALLY interesting, and we see exactly what the dump was trying to achieve by getting him to retire - they need the office space.

Quote:
<b>I had to clear my office. I threw away three tall file drawers of files away into a dumpster set up outside my office</b>. They contained files containing correspondence with provosts, deans, professors at Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Berkeley, Chicago, Cornell, Princeton, Columbia and many more. I spent two years at Harvard, and a year each at MIT, UCLA and the International Institute of Strategic Studies-London. I declined unsolicited invitations from Stanford, Cornell, Cambridge University and a third invitation from Harvard.

Quote:I started at St. Xavier's College Bombay, a Jesuit college, and ended at a Jesuit University, Marquette. In between, I went to some of the very top universities. the London School of Economics (LSE), the University of Southern California (USC),and the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) receiving the B.Sc.Econ, M.A. and Ph.D. degrees.

(And still remained a clueless idiot. Proving that "Ignorance can be fixed. Stupidity is Permanent". )

Quote:
I like to say that my greater fame was that I was at LSE with Mick Jaegger of the Rolling Stones, at USC with O.J. Simpson, and at UCLA with Lew Alcindor or later Karim Abdul Jabber.


(we have heard of K.A. Jabar, but not of "Jabber". Must he a brother of "Jagger" and "Jacker". "Jabber" must be a friend of "Parkar" who makes all those "Parkar" pens in the village of Usa, near Malegaon.)

Quote:I published 13 books and edited books, 40 book chapters and 35 journal articles.

(In any decent university, they expect 35 journal articles before promotion to professor these days.., so in an entire career, this guy barely made it to the level of someone starting out. As for "books" these are such masterpieces as "Man abandons Hindu snake rituals and Accepts Jesus Our Lawd and Savioir", that the lobotomized Baptist freaks leave in ur mailbox)

Quote:I have published over 60 or 70 newspaper articles in the Christian Science Monitor, New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post, the International Herald Tribune, the Washington Times, the Chicago Tribune, the Times of India, the Hindustan Times, the Indian Express, the Independent and the Guardian of London. But I have not published a newspaper article since 1992.

(No wonder they placed a dumpster outside his office) <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Quote:I have given over a 100 <b>public</b> lectures in the US and abroad at Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Columbia, Illinois, Texas, Johns Hopkins, Brookings, Carnegie Endowment, and in London, Cambridge, Oxford, Paris, Berlin, Belgrade, Tokyo, Kyoto, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Sydney, Melbourne, Canberra, Perth, Madras, Hyderabad, Poona, Bombay, Allahabad, Benares, Lucknow, Aligarh, Delhi, Karachi, Hyderabad-Sindh, Lahore, Peshawar, Islamabad, Colombo and Kandy.

<i>Mostly at street corners, declaring "Repent, Sinners! The Day of Retirement Is At Hand!!"</i>

Quote:I have consulted or lectured about 20 times mostly in the 1980s at the US State Department, Department of Defense, CIA, DIA, National Defense University, US Army War College, the US Air War College, the Ministry of Defense in Britain, Indian Ministries of Defense and External Affairs.


Quote:
My files and memories on all of this was just thrown away.
<!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Allah ho Akbar!!!
Quote:
At the reception, people asked me what I was going to do with myself
now. I dont know. Perhaps somebody will tell me.

George/Raju


Please, ppl, tell Sloboraju what to do with himself. Like <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  Reply
Came in the email. The Retired SloboRaju has started his distinguished writings again.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->>On 9/17/06, George C. Thomas <gcthomas@ameritech.net > wrote:
Christians are native to India.  They did not migrate to India from the US or some other planet  to settle there.  Hindus are not native to the US.  They chose to migrat and settle in the US.

But I am sure sending one million Hindus who chose to settle in the US back to India, in exchange for bringing 25 million Indian Christians to the US would be most agreeable to Indian Christians.  Sending one million Hindus in the US who are not native to this country back to India is feasible. An addition of one million highly qualified Hindus to the Indian population of 1.3 billion would be unnoticeable since they would look like everbody else . Bringing 25 million Indian Christians who are not native to the US is not practical.  That would be the addition of 10 percent of a foreign colored population to the US primarily White population of 300 million .  That is not workable.

>Instead of arguing, do something about the persecution of Christians in India.

>See my posting on a website below.


<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Raju
The human record of Christianity in the Americans, Africa, Asia, Australia etc speaks volumes of human rights history of Christianaughty. It is also brilliantly captured in www.christianaggression.org.

If not for the vast funds of the Church providing life support to Christianity in India and Asia, it would have died long ago. Just as it has happened in Europe.    So it is only a matter of time before we give it a fitting farewell.
Hope you will be around them.

<b>And Christian Americans are also not native to Americas, dickhead. They should be sent back to Europe or wherever they came from!</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  Reply
I like how Indian Christians talk crap about us Hindus when they are in the U.S. etc. But, when they get their a$$ kicked by some white guy in the U.S., they come crying about racism and want support from Indian Hindus.

Hindus are not the ones who care about other people's religion, it's the abhrahamic fascists that like to get in people's faces about their religion.
Hindu leaders have been talking about how good all religions are for years. Meanwhile Muslim and Christian one-world religious extremists are saying that Hindus are infidels or heathens who must be killed or converted.




  Reply
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
At the reception, people asked me what I was going to do with myself
now. I dont know. Perhaps somebody will tell me.

George/Raju
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Simple solution, stay in <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo--> or stay with good company of <!--emo&Confusedtupid--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pakee.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pakee.gif' /><!--endemo-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
I had to clear my office. I threw away three tall file drawers of files away into a dumpster set up outside my office. They contained files containing correspondence with provosts, deans, professors at Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Berkeley, Chicago, Cornell, Princeton, Columbia and many more. I spent two years at Harvard, and a year each at MIT, UCLA and the International Institute of Strategic Studies-London. I declined unsolicited invitations from Stanford, Cornell, Cambridge University and a third invitation from Harvard.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It means, it was total garbageBig Grin
  Reply
I bow to this so-called "SloboRaju"...My sources say:

1. He declined all kinds of invitations from Universities so that he can concentrate his talents fool time on Indology Research.

2. Witzel just sent a big bouquet of the choicest White Carnations (all picked up fresh in the local Farmer's market) to Marquette as a small token of his gratitude for releasing this bigtime Supernova of Historical Indology Talent.

*BOW*

<!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  Reply
The saga continues with Solbo Thomas:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->On 9/17/06, George C. Thomas <gcthomas@ameritech.net > wrote:

Forgot to mention, I am an agnostic.  I have not been to church since I moved to the Christian West in 1962 except for weddings, baptisms and funerals.  When India becomes like Europe and China, it will become a better. place.

The life and teachings of Jesus and the practice of Christianity sometimes by the White Christian races have little in common.

I was protesting the persecution of and assault on Christians in India.  Instead I have received a steady stream of hate mail.



<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Raju
The human record of Christianity in the Americans, Africa, Asia, Australia etc speaks volumes of human rights history of Christianaughty. It is also brilliantly captured in www.christianaggression.org. 

If not for the vast funds of the Church providing life support to Christianity in India and Asia, it would have died long ago. Just as it has happened in Europe.    So it is only a matter of time before we give it a fitting farewell.
Hope you will be around them.

And Christian Americans are also not native to Americas, dickhead. They should be sent back to Europe or wherever they came from!
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I agree!  But we are all the prosperous beneficiaries of those adventurous European invaders whosse record is both good and evil, but on balance good.  Where would the world be (including you) without the science, technology and modernization that America has given to the world.

I have read David Frawley and dont think much of what he writes.  He wants mass attention and respect which he cannot get in the West.  But I do respect and admire Konrad Elst's views.  I dont agree with everything he says but he is an honest gentleman scholar.

I have received a lot of venomous abuse and hate mail including a long dossier of abuse and hate against me compiled over the last few years.  I discovered that I am being watched, tracked and recorded meticulously by Hindu Americans. It says a lot about the character and integrity of such people. The US is supposed to be a free country with the right of privacy.


Yours sincerely,

Dr. Dickhead.


Raju G. C. Thomas, Ph.D.
Allis Chalmers Distinguished Professor
of International Affairs Emeritus
Marquette University

gcthomas2@yahoo.com
(414) 351-0629 - Residence

http://www.marquette.edu/polisci/Thomas.htm
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


reader response:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->You call yourself an agnostic, but all I have seen is a steady stream of attacks on Hindus and Hinduism.. only. Why not on other religions.

Just proving that you are one duplicitous Christian, like all others.  Hindus in the US are model minorities.  Check this out business week article Are Indians the Model Immigrants?
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/conte...0913_157784.htm

But Indian Christians once converted become the tools of anti India elements -- be it the Church, CIA or Western Governments. They are a threat to national security as can be seen by what is happening in Nagaland.

A remote land of jungle, Jesus - and religious war: Nagaland:
  www.dailyherald.com/special/passagefromindia/nagaland.asp

You are also a great threat to India. I am glad we are one less of your type.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  Reply
another two response that came in email to Slobo Thomas:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Mr. Thomas,

May I advise you that Christianity as a religion has zero contribution
to world progress.  You are using concepts like "Western", "European",
"Progress", and "Technology" as being synonymous with "Christianity"
and this connection is 100% false.

In fact were it not for the reformation, Christianity would still be putting
Scientists to death, going on witch hunts and burning people alive, while
proclaiming that the earth is flat.

Your attempts to mask Western Europe's progress in Technology via
Industrial Revolution under the banner of a dogmatic faith like Christianity
only reflects your own ignorance and deception.

Christians did not make any nation what it is today Mr. Thomas; it is
Western Scientists and Engineers who did.  Many of those individuals
may have been Christians in their private life, but their contributions to
society were in spite of their religion and not because of it.

Today advances in Science and Technology are seriously threatened
by the resurgence of dogmatic, blind-faith Christian ideologies in USA
such as Creationism, hatred of other faiths and suppression of women.

The fundamental traits of all Abrahamic religions are the same when it
comes to dogma, seeking the destruction of other religions, considering
non-human life forms as worthless, and promoting the inferior status of
women as being objects of property to be owned, used and controlled.

The "Christian" nation you dream of in your deluded reality Mr. Thomas,
is simply the cross replacing the crescent, Vatican replacing the Kaaba,
and crusader rule replacing the Taliban.  I have no intention of living in a
planet controlled by such fascists and will use every remaining breath in
my present life to oppose this return to the dark ages.  If people like you
have their way, people like me will lose -- but I can assure you we will
not go down without a fight.

No, Mr. Thomas -- Hinduism is not perfect and neither are Hindus.  And
I have to acknowledge you are correct in that the erosion of Hindu values
in India today has little to do with Christian missionaries and a lot to do
with Western influences and their blind adoption by middle class Hindus.

However, I will maintain that unlike Christianity -- Hinduism does NOT
need separation of church and state, because science and technology
are intrinsic to its practice.  The overwhelming majority of ancient science,
mathematics and engineering studied by Hindus as part of their religion
are reinforced by modern discoveries of today.  Western, Mid-Eastern
and Oriental historical personages have testified to the marvels of Hindu
civilization since the last 2 and 1/2 millennia, and paid glorious tributes
acknowledging the contribution of Hindu scholars to Science, Astronomy,
Mathematics, Numerology, Linguistics, Logic, Art, Architecture, etc. etc.

While Hinduism accepts that Christianity and all other faiths are different
ways to reach God -- Christianity desires the extinction of every religion
besides itself (the present Pope Benedict VI has gone on record stating
that Hinduism is a FALSE religion).

Given this reality Mr. Thomas, which do you think is the bigger threat to
humanity today -- alleged Hindutva operatives in a largely Christian nation
such as USA, or Christian Missionaries in a largely Hindu nation such as
India??  I would rather live in an Hindu dominated planet where non-Hindu
religions are still considered religions, and non-Hindus are still considered
human beings -- rather than a Christian planet where non-Christian faiths
are targeted for extermination, and non-Christians are considered vermin.

Sleep well Mr. Thomas.  For now, it appears the Taliban is winning.

Sincerely,
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->You might be glad to know that NRIs in USA are working hard for ending persecution of Christians in USA. A very good personal friend's church was shut down because they wanted to appoint a qualified and caring lady as priest. At another place, a gay priest was shown door. These aren't isolated cases, it's pretty much a wide spread phenomenon. Hundreds of good Christians abused by the pedophile priests are yet to get their day in court and is constantly blocked by radicals. Around the country we have clergy who are advocating as which way to vote - as in <i>vote for President who has direct hot line with Jesus</i>; this despite separation of church and state.

We have no use for gratuitous unsolicited advise from Slobodan apologists in Europe feigning concerns about minorities anywhere in the world. Let alone Christians in India or anywhere else. Let them mop their own mess first<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  Reply
Raju Thomas:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I was referring to the latest State Department Report which points out the persecution of Christians in India.  I was talking about the present and not referring to the past. 

I also said that if Hindus living in the US want to promote a Hindutva in India, they should go back and live there instead of living in this secular tolerant country which is 90 percent Christian.  No double standards.

I did not say anything negative about Hinduism or Hindus except against the radical pro-Hindutva Hindus living in the US.  In response I have received all kinds of vile, vicious, and hate-mongering attacks against me, Indian Christians, Christianity, and personal hate and contempt for Jesus.

These responses demonstrated that my views about the radical fanatical Hindu fringe living in the US  was right.  They should go back to India.  The problem is that Hindus living in India who are far more tolerant, will not want such Hindus back.  <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  Reply
it just keeps getting better <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> :
response to Raju Thomas:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Dear Mr. Thomas,

Nobody has the constitutional right to expel Americans of Indian origin regardless of the opinions they hold on any subject matter, including on real or imagined persecutions. The opinions that Mr. Thomas has expressed are very similar to the ones that Christian fundamentalists and racists in the USA have been expressing for long.

Mr. Thomas' suggestion of sending some Americans of Indian origin back to India is an echo of what white racists and supremacists have said in the past. Jefferson, for example, fixed the price of an African American child at $ 22.50, and proposed shipping them back to Africa, after sterilizing adult African Americans. 

The accusation that Hindus are persecuting Christians in India is a strawman invented by American Christian fundamentalists to facilitate the evangelization of Indians by hook or crook. Every one of those allegations have been shown to be false. In reality, Christians in India enjoy more constitutional rights than do Hindus.

The real reason behind such bogus Christian fundamentalist-backed US State reports is to counter the Hindu resurgence in India. Hindutva organizations play a crucial grass-roots level role in that resurgence. So, bogus reports are created to demonize the Hindutva groups. Human rights is not at all the concern can be made out from the fact that the US State has never tabled a report on the Islamic persecution and ethinic-cleansing of 700,000 Hindus in Kashmir, or the US Baptist-sponsored Christian terrorism and ethnic cleansing in the north eastern states of India. 

It is laughable that Mr. Thomas believes the reports of the US government agencies even after the same agencies claimed that Iraq had WMD. Have you found WMD Mr. Thomas? Is it naivete or is it lack of scruples?

US-funded Christian churches have built churches without the slightest constraints in India. In fact, they have churches blocking most prominent temples in India, built with the only intent of aggravating the Hindu sentiments. In contrast, in the USA, zoning laws are invoked to deny building rights to Hindu temples, and every Hindu temple built in the USA had to go through expensive litigations to win their constitutional rights. Please note that such zoning laws are never invoked when a Christian church is built.

Finally, it is the duty of every American to critique Christianity, and pave the way for its destruction. Christianity is a hate-filled evil cult. It has been responsible for most genocides in history. It is against humanity, truth and justice. If someone wishes good for America, he should strive to destroy this dangerous cult in the USA, and to wean Americans from the poisonous grips of this cult.

Christians have as much right to proselytize as do the Nazis - and I am being generous here. Please see my 'in press' papers, "Can Christians Proselytize?" and "From The Holy Cross To The Holocaust."

If Mr. Thomas is very keen on fighting for religious freedom, he must be informed that religiious freedom merely a subset of the freedom of speech. The church-controlled states in India banned The Da Vinci code movie as well as novel. He could very well start his 'crusade' demanding that those bans be lifted, instead of pontificating Hindus.

Finally, Mr.Thomas, I make no distinction between a fundamentalist Christian and another who claims to be an agnostic but has sympathies for Jesus. Both are equally dangerous and the latter is cunning as well. To put it bluntly, Christianity is based upon the Bible, and whatever you make of Jesus is from that text. The Bible is a hate filled text. For an informative reading on Jesus and Christianity, please see the two ebooks:

Jesus Christ: An Artifice For Aggression http://hamsa.org/artifice-intro.htm and Psychology Of Prophetism http://voiceofdharma.com/books/pp/

It is often better to read up on facts than imagine a Jesus that never was. In short, if you remove from the Bible the borrowings from Buddhism, Paganism and Hinduism, all you have is anti-Semitic hate-mongering.

I am afraid that the Arabs have been consistently fooling Europeans. Two thousand years ago, they fooled your ancestors into accepting Christianity. Very soon they might fool you into accepting Islam. Is it not time that all of you stop being the sheep and become the shepherd?

Regards,

<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  Reply
Another one..
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I almost missed this note from Mr. Thomas:

<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->>On 9/17/06, George C. Thomas <gcthomas@ameritech.net > wrote:


An addition of one million highly qualified Hindus to the Indian population of 1.3 billion would be unnoticeable since they would look like everbody else . Bringing 25 million Indian Christians who are not native to the US is not practical.  That would be the addition of 10 percent of a foreign colored population to the US primarily White population of 300 million .  That is not workable.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Should one ridicule Mr. Thomas or pity him? Implicit in his statement is his belief that white people and colored people living together in a society is not a "workable" option! One thought that the days of racial segregation are over! It seems that Christians still believe in the segregation that the Bible teaches.

Another mail indicates that "Raju" is a part of George Thomas' name - suggesting that he could be of an Indian extraction. How did "Raju" make his colored presence a "workable" proposition to the white population in whose midst he lives - perhaps, merely exists? Did he achieve it by extolling the virtues of racial purity of the master race?

Subrahmanya Bharati, the great Tamil poet, lamented against those minds that were enslaved to the British colonizers. He hoped they would soon be history when India became free. How wrong has he been! Perhaps, some minds derive pleasure by reducing themselves to lickspittles of their masters.

Regards<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


and another one..
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Mr Thomas,

Thank you for confirming that in your mind those who disagrees with you (or your Indology buddies) are either "Hindutva elements".

Thanks again for offering absolute zero help to oppressed Christians in US - which is a *PRESENT* issue, no I'm not referring to *past* issues such as burning "witches" at stake in Witzel's Salem, MA.

Please don't cry email foul after seeking deportation of Hindus in America when you don't know what America is. No, a semester at CA with O J Simpson or some "Jabber" doesn't count. You don't know about secularism - had you read our constitution or any of the amendments, you'd have known better. And you don't know what Hindutva is - try sticking your neck outside your indo-euro racists group to learn a bit more about it before advocating mass exodus of Hindus anywhere.


While we Hindus in America work for betterment of *our* communities - native or adopted, we certainly don't appreciate advise from those who supported Christain Slobodan Milisovics atrocities against minorities in your own adopted land.  Hence your concerns about anyone in any land is indeed self-serving and as genuine as a three dollar bill.

If you reply to me, please include a State Dept report pointing to persecution of Christians in US - since we residents here know very well that it's live and thriving.

Till then, we have no use for either your fake concerns of half-baked knowledge.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  Reply
After reading G Thomas response, he is really racist, fanatic. His views are like Hitler. He is promoting discrimination based on religion or religious view. Seems like suffering from inferiority complex, I think he is unable to get respect from white people in his local church. Skin color problem I guess, otherwise we may see him wearing cone over his head !!!!

<img src='http://www.marquette.edu/polisci/images/Thomas.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
  Reply
Clean chit for Solbodan
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Professor Raju George Thomas of Marquette University in Wisconsin (USA) <b>warned of the extremely negative impact on international relations of NATO's illegal attack on a sovereign nation that had not committed any act of aggression</b>. Other powers will be encouraged to emulate NATO's aggressive behavior in defense of their own national interests, while fear of NATO's unpredictable expansion is certain to trigger a new worldwide arms race. An American citizen of Indian origin, Professor Thomas stressed that India, like most of the world (with the exception of NATO countries), did not believe the "humanitarian" pretext for the NATO bombing and <b>sympathized with Yugoslavia as the victim</b>.

<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Genocidal Yugoslavia a victim?


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Convicting Milosevic is important to the West to cover up their role and responsibility in destroying a once multi-ethnic state through the encouragement of declarations of independence by its internal "republics," and then the rush to recognize them. This was the real cause of the tragedy, not Milosevic's nationalist speech in Kosovo in June 1989
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Machiavellian-Athenian morality and the question of justice for Milosevic

Clean chit for Saddam
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The repeated American propaganda weapon to rationalise the deaths of more than one million innocent Iraqis since 1991 through economic sanctions is that Saddam Hussein used poison gas against Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war and against Iraq's own Kurdish citizens. The accusation is now being invoked to launch a full-scale American assault on Iraq. <b>This claim of Iraq gassing its own citizens at Halabjah is suspect</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who really bombed the Kurds

Support for Christian Right in USA
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Blood is thicker than a legal certificate. King Solomon would have ruled in favour of the parents<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Terri Schiavo’s case
  Reply
He is <i>bin panday ka lotta</i>, his views change according to country or whoever is paying for his comments.
  Reply
Who is this jerk ?
  Reply
Support for Christian Right in USA
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Blood is thicker than a legal certificate. King Solomon would have ruled in favour of the parents
Terri Schiavo’s case
[right][snapback]57527[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Read amusing comments on this article. Even Americans have no use for this Bible thumper <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  Reply
Comments from Sudhir's link:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So George, do not try to hijack “the Wisdom of Solomon” and corruptly pressgang it into your cause without applying it correctly and please desist from trying to blatantly massage the clearly "inequal" to present them as "equal" claimants.

Your efforts merely bastardise what was the true "Wisdom of Solomon" <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--emo&:tv--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tv_feliz.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tv_feliz.gif' /><!--endemo-->

SloboRaju had set out to be "Solomon" here... <!--emo&Tongue--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->

People really stuck it to this worthless attention-whore parading as an "intellectual"
<!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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Raju Thomas continues:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->When I distributed that State Department report on the treatment of Christians in India, I said that if Hindus living in the US want to promote a Hindutva in India and an anti-Christian agenda they should go back and live in their proposed Hindutva instead of living in this secular tolerant country which is 90 percent Christian.  No double standards.

I did not say anything negative about Hinduism or Hindus except against the radical pro-Hindutva Hindus living in the US.  In response I have received all kinds of vile, vicious, and hate-mongering attacks against me, agaisnst Indian Christians, against Christianity, and personal hate and contempt for Jesus.  I cannot imagine the kind of reaction from Hindus if a miniscule fraction of such things were said about Hindus, Hinduism and Hindu gods.  So much for the great Hindu tolerance.

These responses demonstrate that my views about the radical fanatical Hindu fringe living in the US  were right.  They should go back to India and live in their Hindutva.  The problem is that Hindus living in India who are far more tolerant,  will not want these Hindu-American fanatics back. 
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Hi Massah slaps Raju in public for such unsecular position:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->From: Steve Farmer
To: Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Steve Farmer
Sent: 17 September 2006 Sunday 05:19
Subject: Re: [Indo-Eurasia] Re: State Department's view of Hindutva


Raju (George C.) Thomas wrote:

>  ...those Indians with Green Cards living in the US who promote and

> support such anti-Christian views and the oppression of Christians in
> India and the establishment of Hindutva, should be denied US
> citizenship and sent back to live in their promised Hindutva.  They
> should not be allowed to live in this secular, tolerant country where
> 90 percent of its citizens are Christians.


I think we should emphasize the 'secular' over the 'Christian' part,
Raju. A lot of us who are neither Christian nor religious (and I'm
certainly neither one) can be opposed to Hindutva. And I'm not sure
that all Christians (think of Bush!) are necessarily tolerant either.

In any event, let's keep religion out of the discussion on the List:
what is at stake is a basic human rights issue, not a particular
minority religion.


Best,
Steve

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Please note folks discussion of religion in this Indo-Euro-Racists group is not allowed. My guess is that Hinduism isn't considered a religion by these indo-euro-racists? Even when the issue is in regards to those minority parents in California.
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