01-25-2006, 11:00 AM
<b>Bharatvarsh</b>,
I was looking for the statement by Aurobindo that you posted: <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->âA certain class of minds shrink from aggressiveness as if it were a sin. It is an error, we repeat, to think that spirituality is a thing divorced from life.... It is an error to think that the heights of religion are above the struggles of this world. The recurrent cry of Sri Krishna to Arjuna insists on the struggle; "Fight and overthrow thy opponents!", "Remember me and fight!", "Give up all thy works to me with a heart full of spirituality, and free from craving, free from selfish claims, fight! Let the fever of thy soul pass from thee."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is what I mean. Dharma should be central to all our actions: not just our peace but also war. We must fight when there is wrong. Thanks to Gandhi and Nehru, we did nothing for the Hindus in Pakistan during partition. Thanks to Nehru's imagined friendship with China, we did nothing for the Tibetans. Many mistakes have been made. We never fought when we should have fought. And we're still not fighting.
I wish we'd take some action though (not saying we should declare war or something that extreme - we're not that desperate yet). Hindus in India today are facing a really big, combined threat and most of us are ignorant, the remaining ones are either complacent or feel dejected looking at the scale of what we're up against.
I have some serious ideas that I think might actually work (if people got rid of the unfeasible bits) although it would require great organisation on the part of Indians. But I'd like to discuss them in a more private setting rather than a public forum that anybody can access. Is there such a possibility?
<b>Sarangadhara</b>,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1.What would you have wanted Bose to do ? Where would he find the ammunition to launch his armed struggle<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good question. I think he should have followed Savarkar's plan. When the war against Hitler was won, Indians should have turned on the British and fought to oust them from the land. If Bose was as charismatic as he's presented, he could have done that or at least attempted it.
His siding with Hitler to later soften Hitler's views on Indians wouldn't have worked had Hitler won anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2.Why should Bose's patriotism be any less than that of gandhi or nehru(if it exists)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> This question is wasted on me, because (nehru fans please skip down) I don't recognise Nehru as a patriot. Gandhi's patriotism was impotent and made others impotent. I mean that Gandhi's methods were dangerous if they outlived the British rule, as they have been proven to be. I criticise him mainly for his fanatic application of ahimsaa in every situation. Even in extreme ones. And for advocating his mass of admirers to do the same.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->to a race that had not tasted freedom in so many years , dying like warriors on the battlefield would have been much better than living like slaves or the division of our nation and destruction of culture and society.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> In that hypothetical scenario again: The Germans wouldn't have even bothered fighting us. They'd have used other methods (Islam) or their trademarked race-brainwashing.
Nazism (via a Catholic nazi priest's book) put the idea into Croatians' heads that the latter were partly descended from the "Aryan" Goths and that they were better than their "Untermensch" Slavic neighbours, the Serbs. Likewise nazism influenced many of the Iranian Muslims and Yugoslavian muslims too. The German nazis left it up to the Croatians to murder out the Serbs, Jews and Romany in Croatia. The Germans didn't have to lift a finger themselves. Likewise, I doubt they would have bothered dealing with us, but they'd have employed others or other methods to keep us down.
Nazi-inspired racism in Yugoslavia is not dead yet and one sees it surfacing often in their anti-Serbian rants. Look at Croatia today: in football matches they are still siegheiling and singing Ustashi chants, and their streets are named after Ustashi and German SS nazis. In the 90s when the Croatians were ethnically cleansing the Serbs from their territories, they used the same methods, the same torture techniques, the same chants etc as the Ustashe in nazi times. In fact, some of the Ustashe war criminals of WWII had returned from N & S America, UK and Australia to "finish the job" they'd started during the war. This race-thing doesn't die fast enough, if at all. No genetics study is going to change Croatians' minds. They have to will the veil to lift from themselves.
The Brits' AIT has had a severe impact, but what if nazi race-brainwashing was applied throughout India and started affecting the North-South and caste relations? After all, nazism wielded so much control in Europe because of the self-sustaining power of the idea of racial-superiority.
So far the AIT has been stumped in that respect: there is no racial discrimination in India but the one imagined by Witzel et al and the anti-Hindu "Dravidianist" groups. But prolonged exposure to nazi idiocy in other cases has been proven to be effective. What if we were not immune? We have seen people take to communism - nazism is practically the same disease albeit drenched in racism.
If Bose was a leftist, I understand why he went to Hitler's side. But I'm surprised he didn't first try joining the Red Army (so that after the war he could ask for their help to fight the British). I'm content with admiring Hindu nationalists who fought for Independence. I can most definitely live without a marxist/commy one that, to top it all off, joined Hitler.
I was looking for the statement by Aurobindo that you posted: <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->âA certain class of minds shrink from aggressiveness as if it were a sin. It is an error, we repeat, to think that spirituality is a thing divorced from life.... It is an error to think that the heights of religion are above the struggles of this world. The recurrent cry of Sri Krishna to Arjuna insists on the struggle; "Fight and overthrow thy opponents!", "Remember me and fight!", "Give up all thy works to me with a heart full of spirituality, and free from craving, free from selfish claims, fight! Let the fever of thy soul pass from thee."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is what I mean. Dharma should be central to all our actions: not just our peace but also war. We must fight when there is wrong. Thanks to Gandhi and Nehru, we did nothing for the Hindus in Pakistan during partition. Thanks to Nehru's imagined friendship with China, we did nothing for the Tibetans. Many mistakes have been made. We never fought when we should have fought. And we're still not fighting.
I wish we'd take some action though (not saying we should declare war or something that extreme - we're not that desperate yet). Hindus in India today are facing a really big, combined threat and most of us are ignorant, the remaining ones are either complacent or feel dejected looking at the scale of what we're up against.
I have some serious ideas that I think might actually work (if people got rid of the unfeasible bits) although it would require great organisation on the part of Indians. But I'd like to discuss them in a more private setting rather than a public forum that anybody can access. Is there such a possibility?
<b>Sarangadhara</b>,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1.What would you have wanted Bose to do ? Where would he find the ammunition to launch his armed struggle<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good question. I think he should have followed Savarkar's plan. When the war against Hitler was won, Indians should have turned on the British and fought to oust them from the land. If Bose was as charismatic as he's presented, he could have done that or at least attempted it.
His siding with Hitler to later soften Hitler's views on Indians wouldn't have worked had Hitler won anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2.Why should Bose's patriotism be any less than that of gandhi or nehru(if it exists)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> This question is wasted on me, because (nehru fans please skip down) I don't recognise Nehru as a patriot. Gandhi's patriotism was impotent and made others impotent. I mean that Gandhi's methods were dangerous if they outlived the British rule, as they have been proven to be. I criticise him mainly for his fanatic application of ahimsaa in every situation. Even in extreme ones. And for advocating his mass of admirers to do the same.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->to a race that had not tasted freedom in so many years , dying like warriors on the battlefield would have been much better than living like slaves or the division of our nation and destruction of culture and society.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> In that hypothetical scenario again: The Germans wouldn't have even bothered fighting us. They'd have used other methods (Islam) or their trademarked race-brainwashing.
Nazism (via a Catholic nazi priest's book) put the idea into Croatians' heads that the latter were partly descended from the "Aryan" Goths and that they were better than their "Untermensch" Slavic neighbours, the Serbs. Likewise nazism influenced many of the Iranian Muslims and Yugoslavian muslims too. The German nazis left it up to the Croatians to murder out the Serbs, Jews and Romany in Croatia. The Germans didn't have to lift a finger themselves. Likewise, I doubt they would have bothered dealing with us, but they'd have employed others or other methods to keep us down.
Nazi-inspired racism in Yugoslavia is not dead yet and one sees it surfacing often in their anti-Serbian rants. Look at Croatia today: in football matches they are still siegheiling and singing Ustashi chants, and their streets are named after Ustashi and German SS nazis. In the 90s when the Croatians were ethnically cleansing the Serbs from their territories, they used the same methods, the same torture techniques, the same chants etc as the Ustashe in nazi times. In fact, some of the Ustashe war criminals of WWII had returned from N & S America, UK and Australia to "finish the job" they'd started during the war. This race-thing doesn't die fast enough, if at all. No genetics study is going to change Croatians' minds. They have to will the veil to lift from themselves.
The Brits' AIT has had a severe impact, but what if nazi race-brainwashing was applied throughout India and started affecting the North-South and caste relations? After all, nazism wielded so much control in Europe because of the self-sustaining power of the idea of racial-superiority.
So far the AIT has been stumped in that respect: there is no racial discrimination in India but the one imagined by Witzel et al and the anti-Hindu "Dravidianist" groups. But prolonged exposure to nazi idiocy in other cases has been proven to be effective. What if we were not immune? We have seen people take to communism - nazism is practically the same disease albeit drenched in racism.
If Bose was a leftist, I understand why he went to Hitler's side. But I'm surprised he didn't first try joining the Red Army (so that after the war he could ask for their help to fight the British). I'm content with admiring Hindu nationalists who fought for Independence. I can most definitely live without a marxist/commy one that, to top it all off, joined Hitler.