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Ancient Indian History
Interesting, Ramana garu..

While I am not situated close to any library these days, was wondering if anyone could dig the following up:

<b>"Epigraphic Remains of Indian Traders in Egypt." Journal article by Richard Salomon; The Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 113, 1993</b>
Rare artefacts found

T.S. Subramanian

Plaque belonging to 2nd century A.D. depicts `kuravai koothu'

<img src='http://www.hindu.com/2006/03/28/images/2006032806202001.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
NEW DISCOVERIES: The terracota plaque with five dancers, and a figurine of Ganesha. (Below) A `vel' found in front of the sanctum sanctorum of the Muruga temple near the Tiger Cave near Mamallapuram. — Photo: S. Thanthoni

CHENNAI: Several artefacts have been unearthed from the ruins of a Muruga temple that the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) has been excavating since July 2005 on the beach at Salavankuppam close to the Tiger Cave, near Mamallapuram.

The ASI's discoveries this year include a terracotta plaque that depicts five women performing `kuravai koothu,' a folk dance; a six-foot `vel' (spear held by Lord Muruga) hewn out of granite; three inscriptions in Tamil of the Pallava, Rashtrakuta and Chola kings; a tiny, beautiful terracota Ganesha; and the remnants of a furnace and crucibles for melting and moulding metals. The ASI has exposed the outer and inner `prakara' walls with standing pillars on all four sides of the temple. ASI officials called it "the earliest structural temple discovered in Tamil Nadu."

The big bricks of the sanctum sanctorum of the Muruga temple showed that it dated back to the late Sangam age or the pre-Pallava period of circa second century A.D, they said.

Fabulous collection

T. Satyamurthy, Superintending Archaeologist, ASI, Chennai Circle, said the terracotta plaque depicting the dancers "is one of the fabulous collections that will enrich the archaeological wealth of the State." It is a 13 cm by 12 cm bas-relief panel that shows the women with headgear and prominent eyes. Their mouths are open as if they are singing. The plaque belongs to circa second or third century A.D., he said.

"It is an important find because it is difficult to find terracotta figurines of the pre-Pallava period," said P. Shanmugam, Director, Institute of Traditional Cultures of South and South-East Asia, University of Madras. "This is the first time in Tamil Nadu that such a group dance plaque has been found," he said. `Kuravai koothu' performed in Muruga temples find mention in the Tamil epic Silapadhikaram.

The tall granite `vel' was found in standing position several feet in front of the garbha griha (sanctum sanctorum). The top portion of the `vel' is on a `padma' pedestal that has two rows of chiselled lotuses. Near the `vel' are two fallen pillars.

A sub-shrine or `vel kottam' with the `vel' in the middle and pillars supporting the roof must have existed there, said G. Thirumoorthy, Assistant Archaeologist, ASI. The `kuravai koothu' plaque and the `vel' established that it was a Muruga temple, added Mr. Thirumoorthy. It appeared that the sub-shrine and the main temple had collapsed twice because of tidal action or tsunami, he said.

All the three Tamil inscriptions discovered now mention the Subrahmanya temple at Thiruvizhchil, which is the present-day Salavankuppam. All spoke of the gift of gold for burning a perpetual lamp at the temple. One inscription on a pillar belongs to the Pallava king, Kambavarman (of 9th century A.D). Another was issued by the Rashtrakuta king, Krishna III, in his 21st regnal year of 971 A.D. The third belonged to the Chola king, Rajendra III, of 13th century A.D.

Earlier finds

During the earlier excavation from July to September 2005, the ASI had discovered the sanctum sanctorum built of bricks of the Muruga temple of the late Sangam age or the pre-Pallava period. According to archaeologists, a tsunami or tidal action damaged it. The Pallava kings subsequently converted into a granite temple in the 8th or 9th century A.D. It too collapsed because of a storm surge or a tsunami. The temple had a third phase of re-construction under the Cholas.

During the excavation last year, the ASI had unearthed two pillars with Tamil inscriptions of two Pallava kings, Nandivarman II of late 8th century A.D. and Dantivarman of early 9th century A.D. They also spoke of donations to the Muruga temple at Thiruvizhchil ( The Hindu , July 12 and September 21, 2005).

"We have thus evidence of the temple construction activity from the pre-Pallava period of roughly second century A.D. to the Chola period of the 12th century A.D.," said K.K. Ramamurthy, Superintending Archaeologist, ASI, Thrissur Circle.

According to Dr. Satyamurthy, two aspects of the excavation stand out. First, it is the earliest structural temple discovered in Tamil Nadu dedicated to Muruga and it was an important pilgrim centre in the Thondaimandalam belt for about 1,000 years. Secondly, the excavation brings to light stratified tsunami deposits.

9,000-Year-Old Dental Drill Is Found

By SETH BORENSTEIN, AP Science Writer 1 hour, 30 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Proving prehistoric man's ingenuity and ability to withstand and inflict excruciating pain, researchers have found that dental drilling dates back 9,000 years.

Primitive dentists drilled nearly perfect holes into live but undoubtedly unhappy patients between 5500 B.C. and 7000 B.C., an article in Thursday's journal Nature reports. Researchers carbon-dated at least nine skulls with 11 drill holes found in a Pakistan graveyard.

That means dentistry is at least 4,000 years older than first thought — and far older than the useful invention of anesthesia.

This was no mere tooth tinkering. The drilled teeth found in the graveyard were hard-to-reach molars. And in at least one instance, the ancient dentist managed to drill a hole in the inside back end of a tooth, boring out toward the front of the mouth.

The holes went as deep as one-seventh of an inch (3.5 millimeters).

"The holes were so perfect, so nice," said study co-author David Frayer, an anthropology professor at the University of Kansas. "I showed the pictures to my dentist and he thought they were amazing holes."

How it was done is painful just to think about. Researchers figured that a small bow was used to drive the flint drill tips into patients' teeth. Flint drill heads were found on site. So study lead author Roberto Macchiarelli, an anthropology professor at the University of Poitiers, France, and colleagues simulated the technique and drilled through human (but no longer attached) teeth in less than a minute.

"Definitely it had to be painful for the patient," Macchiarelli said.

Researchers were impressed by how advanced the society was in Pakistan's Baluchistan province. The drilling occurred on ordinary men and women.

The dentistry, probably evolved from intricate ornamental bead drilling that was also done by the society there, went on for about 1,500 years until about 5500 B.C., Macchiarelli said. After that, there were no signs of drilling.

Macchiarelli and Frayer said the drilling was likely done to reduce the pain of cavities.

Macchiarelli pointed to one unfortunate patient who had a tooth drilled twice. Another patient had three teeth drilled. Four drilled teeth showed signs of cavities. No sign of fillings were found, but there could have been an asphalt-like substance inside, he said.

Dr. Richard Glenner, a Chicago dentist and author of dental history books, wouldn't bite on the idea that this was good dentistry. The drilling could have been decorative or to release "evil spirits" more than fighting tooth decay, he said, adding, "Why did they do it? No one will ever know."

Macchiarelli said the hard-to-see locations of the drilled teeth in jaws seem to rule out drilling for decorative purposes. Frayer said the prehistoric drillers' skill is something modern-day patients can use to lord over their dentists.

"This may be something to tell your dentist: If these people 9,000 years ago could make a hole this perfect in less than a minute," Frayer said, "what are they doing?"
Although the article skillfully avoids mention the IV Civilization it has got to be it.

9,000-Year-Old Dentistry

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Primitive dentists drilled nearly perfect holes into live but undoubtedly unhappy patients between 5500 B.C. and 7000 B.C., an article in Thursday's journal Nature reports. Researchers carbon-dated at least nine skulls with 11 drill holes <b>found in a Pakistan graveyard</b>.

<b>Stone age man used dentist drill</b>

<b>Stone age people</b> in <b>Pakistan were using dental drills made of flint 9,000 years ago, </b>according to researchers.

Teeth from a<b> Neolithic graveyard in Mehgarh in the country's Baluchistan province </b>show clear signs of drilling.

Analysis of the teeth shows prehistoric dentists had a go at curing toothache with <b>drills made from flint heads.</b>

The team that carried out the work say close examination of the teeth shows the tool was "surprisingly effective" at removing rotting dental tissue.

A total of eleven drilled crowns were found, with one example showing evidence of a complex procedure involving tooth enamel removal followed by carving of the cavity wall.

Four of the teeth show signs of decay associated with the drilled hole.

"In all cases, marginal smoothing confirms that drilling was performed on a living person who continued to chew on the tooth surfaces after they had been drilled," the reserchers reported.

The form of dental treatment seen at Mehrgarh continued for about 1,500 years, before the practice was stopped in the area.

<b>Flint drill heads are found abundantly at the Mehrgarh site, among assemblages of beads made of bones, shell and turquoise. Writing in Nature, the authors suggest that skills developed by bead craftsmen also worked well on teeth.</b>

<b>Mehrgarh straddles a route between Afghanistan and the Indus Valley to the south.</b>

The researchers, led by Roberto Macchiarelli of the University of Poitiers, France, said <b>it was an early site for agriculture, where barley, wheat, and cotton were grown.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

"harappan" rohri hills flint mines:
From HPI..

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Indus Valley Seals Available For Download


April 7, 2006: An unusual resource is available for download in PDF form at "source." It is a 188-page catalog of Indus Valley seals and inscriptions, running about forty items per page. In addition to the seals are pottery pieces, index of known signs and various commentaries. The photos of the seals are relatively high resolution. We're not aware of the source of this collection. Be advised that the download process from this free site is slow.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Indus Valley Seals Available For Download

Unable to download, download is not working.
I was able to download it just now. use the "free download links" then click on "file factory FTP".
Even in stone age, dread of the dentist- International Herald tribune report

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Even in Stone Age, dread of the dentist</b>

By Kyle Jarrard International Herald Tribune


PARIS Man's first known trip to the dentist occurred as early as 9,000 years ago, when at least nine people living in a Neolithic village in present-day Pakistan had holes drilled into their molars and survived the procedure.
The findings, being reported Thursday in the scientific review Nature, push back the dawn of dentistry by 4,000 years, to around 7000 B.C. The drilled molars come from a sample of 300 individuals buried in graves at the Mehrgarh site in western Pakistan, believed to be the oldest Stone Age complex in the Indus River valley.
"This is certainly the first case of drilling a person's teeth," said David Frayer, professor of anthropology at the University of Kansas and lead author of the report. "But even more significant, this practice lasted some 1,500 years and was a tradition at this site. It wasn't just a sporadic event."
The earliest previously known evidence of dental work done in vivo was a drilled molar found in a Neolithic graveyard in Denmark dating from about 3000 B.C.
All nine of the Mehrgarh dental patients were adults - four females, two males and three individuals of unknown gender; they ranged in age from about 20 to over 40. Most of the drilling was done on the chewing surfaces of their molars, in both the upper and lower jaws, probably using a flint point attached to a bow that made a high- speed drill, the researchers say. Concentric ridges carved by the drilling device were found inside the holes.
The drilling may have been done to relieve the suffering and damage of tooth rot, but only 4 of the total of 11 teeth showed signs of decay associated with the holes. The scientists say it is clear that the holes were not made for aesthetic reasons, given their position deep in the mouth and on the erosion- prone surface of the teeth.
There also is no evidence of fillings, but because some of the holes were bored deep into the teeth, the researchers believe something was used to plug the holes. What that substance was is not known. The holes ranged in depth from a shallow half-a-millimeter to 3.5 millimeters, deep enough to pierce the enamel and enter the sensitive dentin.
Dental health was poor at Mehrgarh, though the problems were less often tooth decay than brutal wear and tear. Roberto Macchiarelli, professor of paleoanthropology at the University of Poitiers, France, and the report's lead anthropological researcher, attributed the bad teeth to the Neolithic diet, which included newly domesticated wheat and barley.
"A lot of abrasive mineral material was introduced when grains were ground on a stone," he said, "and as these people moved to a grain diet, their teeth wore down, dentin was exposed and the risk of infection rose."
The Mehrgarh complex, occupied for 4,000 years, sits beside the Bolan River in Baluchistan on a plain that was repeatedly buried in alluvial deposits that not only destroyed mud-brick buildings but crushed many skeletons in the graveyard.
The excavation of 300 individuals was begun by a French team in the 1980s; international groups followed until 2001, when it became too dangerous to work in Baluchistan.
None of the individuals with drilled teeth appear to have come from a special tomb or sanctuary, indicating that the oral health care they received was available to any and all.
Frayer said that, given the position of the holes and the angles of the drilling, "we're pretty sure these were not self- induced." That the patients were alive and lived to tell the tale of their dental visit is proved, he says, by subsequent wearing down of their teeth and by deliberate smoothing and widening of the holes later on.
Improbably, one of the 11 drilled molars was pierced on the back of the tooth between it and the next molar, which evidently had either first been removed to make way for the drill or lost earlier. Even so, it remains a mystery how the hole was drilled behind the tooth deep in the mouth.
One of the nine individuals saw the dentist several times, apparently, and had three molars drilled. Another person had two drillings on the same tooth.
The dentists may have been highly skilled artisans at Mehrgarh, where beads of imported lapis lazuli, turquoise and carnelian were found drilled with holes even smaller than the ones in the nine individuals. Discovered among the beads were finely tipped drill heads.
"The drilling of teeth is very rare in the anthropological record," said Macchiarelli, noting that work similar to that done at Mehrgarh does not recur until much later, among the Anasazi of the southwest United States around A.D. 1100 and in Europe around A.D. 1500.
But that people have been fiddling with their teeth for ages is clear, Frayer said, citing the use of toothpicks by early man in Africa and by Neanderthals in Europe. Channels were rubbed into the enamel of their teeth at the gum line by regular back-and-forth motion of a grass stalk or quill or other utensil. There also have been many cultures in which people shaped their teeth or drilled holes in the front ones for aesthetic reasons.
<b>The 1,500-year-long tradition of drillwork at Mehrgarh appears not to have been passed down to later cultures: There is no evidence that the Chalcolithic, or Copper Age, people who next lived there ever visited the dentist. Why the practice came to a halt is not known.</b>

check the last line...why is that so?

Democracy in Ancient India

by Steve Muhlberger, Associate Professor of History, Nipissing University.
Indus script found in mayiladudurai TN

Indus script has been found in Mayiladudurai, Tamil nadu.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Mr. Mahadevan commented that the latest discovery was very strong evidence that the Neolithic people of Tamil Nadu and the Indus Valley people "shared the same language, which can only be Dravidian and not Indo-Aryan." He added that before this discovery, the southernmost occurrence of the Indus script was at Daimabad, Maharashtra on the Pravara River in the Godavari Valley.

As usual the Aryan - Dravidian "linguistic blabbering" has been given importance in our "secular" newspaper.

Indus cities dried up with monsoon

<!--QuoteBegin-telegraph+-->QUOTE(telegraph)<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Study links fall of civilisation with changes in rain pattern  </b>
Do clouds hold the key?
New Delhi, April 29: It wasn’t raiders from the north but a weakened monsoon that spelled doom for the Indus valley civilisation, suggests a study published this week.

Geologist Anil Gupta at the Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur, and fellow Indian and American scientists have analysed monsoon behaviour over thousands of years through geological studies and connected it to archaeological findings.

They say that changes in the Indian monsoon over the past 10,000 years may explain the spread of agriculture in the subcontinent as well as the rise and fall of the civilisation that produced Harrappa.

“We see a clear connection between changes in the monsoon, the growth of agriculture and the movement of people across the subcontinent,” said Gupta, the lead author of the study published in the journal Current Science. “The correlation between the history of the monsoon and archaeology is striking.”

Archaeologists have suspected for decades that an intensified monsoon might have helped the Indus civilisation grow, while a weakening monsoon might have led to its decline. However, in the past, some experts had also suggested invasions by central Asian hordes or a massive earthquake may have snuffed the life out of the Indus cities.

Three years ago, Gupta and his colleagues used the signatures of tiny marine organisms in sediments from the Arabian Sea to determine the history of the monsoon over the past 10,000 years.

These organisms thrive when rainfall is good but their population dwindles during dry periods. “The marine records suggest that 10,000 years ago, the monsoon over the subcontinent was much stronger than it is today,” Gupta said.

Independent studies have shown that 10,000 years ago, the Ganga and Brahmaputra carried double the amount of sediment they do today, Gupta said. This, too, indicates a stronger monsoon.

The earliest settlement in the subcontinent with evidence of agriculture and domestication at Mehrgarh — now in Pakistan — is about 9,000 years old. This coincides with the peak intensification of the monsoon, the study said.

Archaeological studies have shown that the Mehrgarh settlers grew wheat and barley and domesticated cattle, sheep and goats. The increased rainfall and the spread of agriculture along the Indus valley over a few centuries would have given rise to the Indus civilisation, the researchers said.

The Arabian Sea sediments and other geological studies show that the monsoon began to weaken about 5,000 years ago. The dry spell, lasting several hundred years, might have led people to abandon the Indus cities and move eastward into the Gangetic plain, which has been an area of higher rainfall than the northwestern part of the subcontinent.

“It’s not high temperatures, but lack of water that drove the people eastward and southward,” Gupta said.

About 1,700 years ago, the monsoon began to improve again, leading to increased farm produce for several centuries and contributing to the relative prosperity in India during the medieval ages, from AD 700 to 1200.

After a weak phase between AD 1400 and 1800, the monsoon has again strengthened over the past 200 years, leading to increasing productivity. Scientists, however, believe that global warming might now be influencing the monsoon.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-bengurion+-->QUOTE(bengurion)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Mr. Mahadevan commented that the latest discovery was very strong evidence that the Neolithic people of Tamil Nadu and the Indus Valley people "shared the same language, which can only be Dravidian and not Indo-Aryan." He added that before this discovery, the southernmost occurrence of the Indus script was at Daimabad, Maharashtra on the Pravara River in the Godavari Valley.

As usual the Aryan - Dravidian "linguistic blabbering" has been given importance in our "secular" newspaper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

true bengurion. but what mahadevan argues has to be read with this: (here) he compartmentalises IVC linguistically and culturally (not that i am contradicting you):

<!--QuoteBegin-http://www.harappa.com/script/mahadevantext.html#4+-->QUOTE(http://www.harappa.com/script/mahadevant...Begin-->In fact, I plow a somewhat lonely furrow in this. I often say that if the key to the Indus script linguistically is Dravidian, then culturally the key to the Indus script is Vedic. What I mean is that the cultural traits of the Indus Valley civilization are likely to have been absorbed by the successor Indo-Aryan civilization in Punjab and Sindh, and that the civilization in the far south would have changed out of recognition. In any case, the present South Indian civilization is already the product of both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian cultures, and the language itself is completely mixed up with both elements. Tamil alone retains most of the earlier Dravidian linguistic structure. Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada have become Indo-Aryanized much more, and culturally, the Hindu religion is a complete combination of all these elements. Therefore while it is legitimate to look for survivals, those survivals are as likely to be found in the RgVeda as in Purananuru, a Tamil work, as likely to be found in Punjab and Sindh as in India and Sri Lanka. So we have to separate our approach of a linguistic connection where it is permissible to construct proto-languages and try to decipher a language, but if you are looking at the survival of cultural and social traits of Harappan civilization they are likely to be all over the subcontinent, overlaid with centuries of transformation in culture and of language. Some of the myths may survive but may become unrecognizable. It is not a very easy or straightforward relationship that you can trace, it is a tangle. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-bengurion+May 1 2006, 08:55 AM-->QUOTE(bengurion @ May 1 2006, 08:55 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Indus script found in mayiladudurai TN

Indus script has been found in Mayiladudurai, Tamil nadu.

Barely hours after this hitting the news wire, some of the self appointed scholars (whose knowledge of Indian languages is limited to one word - Hindutva) have already started issuing statements that it has to be a hoax or frogery!!
This while sitting 4000 miles away from Mayiladudurai <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Standard seems to be with any Indian finds, it's guilty unless proven innocent
Can you believe this racists little midgets <!--emo&:furious--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/furious.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='furious.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<img src='http://www.hindu.com/2006/05/01/images/2006050101992001.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Mahadevan is more honest than the witzel/parpola circus, but he does have his ideological blinders on. He did not come out with the racist reflex of hoax

An entire corpus of SSVC inscriptions have been found in the Mideast. that does not turn the mideast areas into dravidian or sanskrit speaking.. It does however speak for signifcant sanskritic (Indic) influence in the mideast. The fact that we continue to separate the known so-called "IE" invasions of the mideast (hittite/mittani/kassite/persian/etc) from these SSVC artifacts is a unimaginable travesty. Invariably, military conquest follows economic invasion or trade relations.
Is there a good history of Afgahnistan? I am interested in the pre Islamic period. Also would like to know when and how did Afghanistan become a 'rentier' state? I figure this must be the time of Subugtign around 1000AD.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Is there a good history of Afgahnistan? I am interested in the pre Islamic period. Also would like to know when and how did Afghanistan become a 'rentier' state? I figure this must be the time of Subugtign around 1000AD. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right, the following is taken from "Heroic Hindu Resistance..." by Goel:


The same story was repeated by the Hindu kingdoms of Kabul (Kapisa) and Zabul (Jabal) which lay to the north-west of Sindh, and which the Islamic armies had started attacking soon after they annexed Khorasan in AD 643. It was in AD 650 that the first Islamic army penetrated deep into Zabul by way of Seistan, which at that time was a part of India territorially as well as culturally. The struggle was grim and prolonged. The Islamic army suffered heavy losses. In the final round, the invader was defeated and driven out.

Another attack followed in AD 653. The Arab general, Abdul Rahman, was able to conquer Zabul and levy tribute from Kabul. The king of Kabul, however, proved desultory in paying regularly what the Arabs thought to be their due. Finally, another Arab general, Yazid ibn Ziyad who had been the governor of Seistan for some time, attempted retribution in AD 683. He was killed by the Hindus, and his army was put to flight with great slaughter. The Arabs lost Seistan also, and had to pay 5,00,000 dirhams to get one of their generals, Abu Ubaida, released.

But the Arabs, inspired as they were by an imperialist ideology, did not give up. They recovered Seistan some time before AD 692. Its new governor, Abdullah, invaded Kabul. The Hindus trapped the Arab army in the mountain passes after allowing it to advance unopposed for some distance. Abdullah agreed to cease hostilities, and the king of Kabul agreed to renew payment of an annual tribute. But the treaty was denounced by the Caliph who dismissed Abdullah. The war against Kabul was renewed in AD 695 when Hajjaj became the governor of Iraq. He sent an army under Ubaidullah, the new governor of Seistan. Ubaidullah was defeated and forced to retreat after leaving his three sons as hostages and promising that “he shall not fight as long as he was governor”.15 Once again, the treaty was denounced by the Caliph, and another general, Shuraih, tried to advance upon Kabul. He was killed by the Hindus, and his army suffered huge losses as it retreated through the desert of Bust. Poor Ubaidullah died of grief. That was the third round won by the Hindu kingdom of Kabul.

In the next round, Hajjaj commissioned Abdul Rahman once again. He made some conquests but could not consolidate his hold. Hajjaj threatened to supersede him. Abdul Rahman revolted and entered into a treaty with the Hindu king to “carry arms against his master”.16 The treaty did not work, and Abdul Rahman committed suicide. The Hindu king, however, continued the war. Masudi, the Arab historian, “makes mention of a prince in the valley of the Indus who after having subjugated Eastern Persia, advanced to the bank of the Tigris and Euphrates”.17 Hajjaj had to make peace according to which the Hindu king was entitled to keep his kingdom in exchange for an annual tribute. The Hindu king, however, stopped payment in the reign of Caliph Sulayman (AD 715-717). Some attempts to force him into submission were made in the reign of Caliph Al-Mansur (AD 745-775). But they met with only partial success, and we find the Hindus ruling over Kabul and Zabul in the year AD 867. The Arabs had failed once again to conquer finally another small Hindu principality, in spite of their being the mightiest power on earth. The struggle had lasted for more than two hundred years.

The kingdom of Kabul suffered a temporary eclipse in AD 870 but not on account of the Arabs, nor as a result of a clash of arms. The Turkish adventurer, Yaqub bin Layth, “who started his career as a robber in Seistan and later on founded the Saffarid dynasty of Persia”, sent a message to the king of Kabul that he wanted to come and pay his homage. The king was deceived into welcoming Yaqub and a band of the latter’s armed followers in the court at Kabul. Yaqub “bowed his head as if to do homage but he raised the lance and thrust it into the back of Rusal so that he died on the spot”. A Turkish army then invaded the Hindu kingdoms of both Kabul and Zabul. The king of Zabul was killed in the battle, and the population was converted to Islam by force. That was a permanent loss to India. But the succeeding Hindu king of Kabul who had meanwhile transferred his capital to Udbhandapur on the Indus, recovered Kabul after the Saffarid dynasty declined. Masudi who visited the Indus Valley in AD 915 “designates the prince who ruled at Kabul by the same title as he held when the Arabs penetrated for the first time into this region”.18

The Hindus lost Kabul for good only in the closing decade of the 10th century. In AD 963 Alaptigin, a Turkish slave of the succeeding Samanid dynasty, had been able to establish an independent Muslim principality in Kabul with his seat at Ghazni. It was his general and successor, Subuktigin, who conquered Kabul after a struggle spread over two decades. The Hindus under king Jayapala of Udbhandapur made a bold bid to recapture Kabul in AD 986-987. A confederate Hindu army to which the Rajas of Delhi, Ajmer, Kalinjar and Kanauj has contributed troops and money, advanced into the heartland of the Islamic kingdom of Ghazni. “According to Utbi, the battle lasted several days and the warriors of Subuktigin, including prince Mahmood, were ‘reduced to despair.’ But a snow-storm and rains upset the plans of Jayapala who opened negotiations for peace. He sent the following message to Subuktigin: ‘You have heard and know the nobleness of Indians - they fear not death or destruction… In affairs of honour and renown we would place ourselves upon the fire like roast meat, and upon the dagger like the sunrays.’”19 But the peace thus concluded proved temporary. The Muslims resumed the offensive and the Hindus were defeated and driven out of Kabul. Dr. Mishra concludes with the comment that Jayapala “was perhaps the last Indian ruler to show such spirit of aggression, so sadly lacking in later Rajput kings”.20

a kudakallu - or a megalithic (urn) burial, akin to stonehenges, dolmens and menhirs (asterix comics?) and megalithic burials found in megalithic europe - in kerala (vestiges of this practice still survive in some tribes in kerala):

<img src='http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/3364/kudakallu26fo.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

here is an interesting essay by giorgio samorini linking the european megalithic culture with the indian one based on an assumption that these mushroom shapes connoted to a practice of revering psychoactive mushrooms among both people.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Some dolmen built in Great Britain and in northern France recall the kuda-kallu, and all the European megalithic production would deserve a careful ethnomicological study. In confirmation of this, it is sufficient to observe some rock-engravings on two of the gigantic monoliths forming the famous megalithic ceremonial site of Stonhenge, in Great Britain. These engravings depict images going back to the same figurative motif, interpreted by archeologists as the symbol of the sacrificial axe, an implement really found among the objects which furnished the megalithic burials. Nevertheless, the outlines of the axes engraved on the Stonhenge monoliths look anomalous in comparison with those of the axe usually represented on the other types of monuments of the same megalithic culture. The dissimilarity of the shape of the Stonehenge "axes" would seem peculiar to this archeological site, and it is such as to lead to ethnomicological interpretations and hypotheses.

As discussed by Gilberto Camilla and myself in a recent article on Greek art, «in the interpretation of known and repeated symbols depicted on archeological "documents", too often do scholars base themselves on generally accepted interpretations, perhaps not to hurt the feelings of who, sometimes more than one hundred years before, set a first reading, or maybe because of intepretation slothfulness and routine» (Samorini & Camilla, 1995). This could have happened, in addition to the study of Greek Art, also in the interpretation of Stonehenge rock-engravings and of the Kerala kuda-kallu, in the same way in which it happened in the interpretation of the Maya "mushroom-stones" in Guatemala, obstinately interpreted as phallic symbols or potter’s molds for decades (Lowy, 1975 and 1981).

<b>Without discussing the merit of the question concerning the origin or not of the southern Indian megalithic culture from the European one, the fact remains that the hypothesis of a knowledge and of a cult of psychoactive mushrooms among the Euro-Asiatic megalithic cultures should not discarded a priori. The kuda-kallu would advise against doing so</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Mahadevan is more honest than the witzel/parpola circus, but he does have his ideological blinders on. He did not come out with the racist reflex of hoax

exactly, atleast he is not racist. And out right deny the evidence as hoax as "creationist indologists".

But, i still do not understand why he makes a comment that there is a separate Aryan or Indo aryan language and then a dravidian language.

Can somebody give pointers links where some sensible arguments are put forward to counter this notion of unrelated Indo-aryan and dravidian language/culture.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But, i still do not understand why he makes a comment that there is a separate Aryan or Indo aryan language and then a dravidian language. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

neither do i. but an attempt at explaining maybe why:

he treats it as an assumption. and then proceeds to investigate whether the 'indus script' is dravidian or indo aryan. he believes (AND HOPES TO PROVE BUT DOUBTS IF HE CAN IN HIS LIFETIME) that the script's language is of more dravidian affinity than indo euopean. this does not mean that he believes in the assumption - it may be wrong (as i fear he strongly suspects in places but then he's wearing blinders, true - like when he admits that there isn't a drav. lang. other thanclassical tamil that is free of indo aryan (or IE) influences...but this is where he may be willingly blinding himself?). lastly, we make a grave mistake repeatedly referring to the indus script/seals as a language (to reiterate, mahadevan's mission is<b> to endeavour to prove that the script's language is of more dravidian affinity than indo european</b>....this can be only if the script corresponded to any language at all?....or best-case-scenario: if it corresponded to any language still extant or already decoded?)

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