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Will India Survive As Bharat?
#1
India that is Bharat (India is perhaps the only country in the world to have two official names), like the Ganga that symbolises her, meanders on in spite of continuous assaults on her political, cultural and religious institutions. These assaults are by political parties, which subsume national interest to their greed for power, their contrasting approaches towards issues that concern the majority and minority religions and their cultures and traditions and their subjugation of the intellectual community into endorsing their dominant political philosophy - by patronage or ostracism. The dominant philosophy of India’s political class may be summed up as the political equivalent of commercial sex work.

Hidden agenda in Kashmir?

The sequence of events that built up the Kashmir imbroglio makes out for an unmistakable case of ineptitude, political myopia and vanity. First, at the time of partition, the Maharajah of Kashmir affirmed that his state would remain independent and not join either India or Pakistan. When Pakistan tried to annex the state by infiltrating tribal raiders, the Maharajah offered accession of his state to India. The instrument of accession that the Maharajah signed was valid under international law and had no strings attached to it.

India sent her armies to liberate Kashmir from its aggressors. Mahatma Gandhi was reported to have come out of the Birla House in Delhi where he was camping and blessed the Indian airforce planes that were over-flying to liberate Kashmir. Indian army beat Pakistan in the battle and was ready to liberate Kashmir.

Thus far the progression of the story was linear with a simple cause and effect sequence. Then some bizarre things began to happen. India, instead of liberating Kashmir, called a unilateral cease-fire of the winning army. A new article - the now infamous article 370 - though the instrument of accession did not call for it, was added to the Indian constitution. The matter was referred to the UN - again, though not called for by the instrument of accession.

The instinct for self-flagellation of India’s political masters was not only to haunt her for over fifty years but virtually opened a Pandora’s box. First India weakened her case in international fora. Second, she was oblivious to the loss of Baltistan, Gigit and other northern areas, which slipped out of her hand along with Kashmir. And third, article 370 lead to the introduction of slew of cankerous articles that gave the northeastern states the same dubious status as Kashmir. The advent of Jihad culture on the world stage that originated in West Asia engulfed the Kashmiri Hindus and made them refugees in their own country. India winked at the phenomenon in West Asia and winks at the plight of the Kashmiri Hindus - her political institutions culpable and her intellectuals hypocritical.

Did Jawaharlal’s overweening ambition to win a Nobel peace prize script our pernicious Kashmir policy?

Tolerating treason?

Could you imagine, at the height of the Falklands war, the Communist Party of Great Britain supporting Argentina? If it did such an act would have been described as high treason. Strong public opinion chastised even the punctilious BBC in its reporting of the war.

In India that is Bharat, not only could a political party get away with supporting the enemy during the Chinese war of 1962, but forty years into the future usurp an aura of respectability that would give it a stranglehold over many public institutions. Today it is a state within a state that enjoys awesome authority and no responsibility.

Placatory scripts!

The UN mandated the formation of Israel in 1948 but India that is Bharat did not recognise the state for fear of alienating her native minority population. How recognising a state in west Asia for which its constituents fought for over two millennia would go against the interests of India’s minorities boggles imagination. Rather than cultivating a friendship with Israel that has so much to offer, India that is Bharat indulged a club called the Non Aligned Movement comprising mostly banana republics and totalitarian states. India that is Bharat finally got round to recognising Israel after China did.

Would Britain re-write its history eulogising Napoleon to please the French minority? In India that is Bharat, half a century after Sardar Patel ordered the restoration of the Somnath temple a celebrated historian re-writes history amounting to an apologia for Mohamed Ghaznavi who destroyed it.

White-livered fourth estate!

Not a whimper is heard when newspapers routinely publish derogatory critiques on Hindu mythology, films routinely lampoon Gods and other mythological figures and rationalists have a field day lambasting them. Newspapers and intellectuals cry foul when some social organisations protest against such insensitivity. They are dubbed obscurantist and even fascist.

Offices of all four English language newspapers in Bangalore a.k.a. India’s Silicon Valley were vandalised at one time or other for publishing something the principal minority religion considered blasphemous. There were no cries of ‘freedom of expression in peril’. The victims promptly published apologies. After one of those episodes, an eminent columnist went into hiding till the fury subsided.

Who do you think was responsible for Salman Rushidie becoming a fugitive to eternity? A very revered, eminent journalist, champion of freedom of expression and conscience keeper of (India’s version of) secularism.


Reformation abroad and apartheid at home!

There are three kinds of nations in the world. In first world democracies every religion enjoys equal status vis-à-vis the state, probably with a slight but understandable tilt towards the majority religion. Therefore no one would take exception when the president of the US takes oath on the bible when sworn into office or lights a Christmas tree on the eve of Christmas. After the break up of USSR, nations in Eastern Europe abandoned the dead religion called communism and moved into this category. In the theocratic states only the dominant religion is - allowed to be - practised in public.

India that is Bharat belongs to the third category - alone in the world - where there is an undeclared apartheid against the majority religion. Unbelievable? But true! Every child is initiated into school after a prayer to Saraswathi the goddess of learning. Yet Saraswathi Vandana or invocation to the goddess of learning was not allowed in a conference of Education Ministers. The received wisdom was that it would offend the sensibilities of a minority religion. Now look at the contrast. During the holy month of Ramjan every two-bit politician and his uncle - of the majority religion - dons a fez cap and hosts at least one Iftar party.

The Indian State cannot serve a superior court’s summons to a Muslim cleric. But a state government gave Hindus a Diwali gift last year by arresting one of their most revered pontiffs. The state’s law enforcement agencies (literally) stage-managed an Entebbe type commando operation with machine guns helicopters and aeroplanes to arrest a harmless Sanyasin at a cost of twenty million rupees. If only they were as zealous and volunteered their prowess when an Indian Airlines plane was hijacked to Afghanistan!

Demographic Invasion

Berlin wall was dismantled in 1990 so the two Germanies could unite. This year the French rejected a common EU constitution not because they feared losing a few plumbing jobs to the Polish but because they feared their culture and identity might be smothered in the enlarged EU. The Dutch followed suit.

In India that is Bharat, a report about fifteen to twenty million Bangladeshi illegal immigrants swamping all over the land is dismissed as paranoia of a fanatic Hindu fringe. Fifteen to twenty million is more than the population of many European nations. Just to give an idea by contrast, the three Baltic republics Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania had a combined population of 2.7 million when they seceded from the erstwhile USSR

These examples demonstrate how cultures seek to consolidate and protect their identity from atrophy.

What is culture? Why should a nation seek to preserve its cultural ancestry? What will happen if power hungry political élites seek to erase a nation’s cultural ancestry to perpetuate themselves in power?

<i>This is not the end of this article but the beginning of a - hopefully - lively debate!</i>
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#2
Thouoght provoking post Bharatvarsh.

At this time the short answer is that the jury is still out on this. I am leaning towards the proposition tjhat India will not survive as the sole remaining major representative of the Dharma.The descendants of the Ikshvaku do not seem to have an overhelming ambition to surive with all their culture in tact . Barring suchzeal, I predict slow irrelevance and eventual fading away from the pages of history for the Indics and their way of life - unless of course they chose to stand and fight.
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#3
It appears what Kaushal ji is stating is correct. In about 50 years or so if the present trend continues, India will lose all its ancient manners and cultural ways. These will be replaced by the Western, English oriented people and we see evidence of the same in all up market localities of our big cities. As India marches ahead economically, it will go Westernized at a much faster Phase than China because the present generation of Indians are not very conversant with the Indian values.
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#4
Swami Vivekananda had once said that remove religion from India and She is dead. India is a vertitable laboratory of meta-physical and spiritual thinking in this world.

At another time Swamiji said that India is the primal Guru of the world in religion.

What will remain in India if there will be no difference in India, USA, Canada or any other country?

<b>India is the only country in the world where the space scientists go to a temple and break a coconut before launching rockets/satellites.</b>

[Space science in the lord’s hands:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050505/asp/...ory_4698904.asp]

Now, that shows howsoever successful an Indian might become, deep inside heart he/she has some faith/belief system which cannot be found anywhere in this world.

Sri Aurobindo said that India is a living goddess which has from time immemorial survived worst onslaughts in human history.

A recent survey in the world has put Indians among the most religious people in the world (2nd in the world which could be due to statistical error as they probably did not consider vast semi-literate people who are even more religious).

Try Googling and most meta-physical, religious sites are Indians or from India.

Compare it with what other countries have to offer on the net !!!

India faces lots of challenges but remember what Sri Aurobindo had said:
<i><b>
"India of the ages is not dead nor has she spoken her last creative word; she lives and has still something to do for herself and the human peoples. And that which must seek now to awake is not an anglicised oriental people, docile pupil of the West and doomed to repeat the cycle of the occident's success and failure, but still the ancient immemorable Shakti recovering her deepest self, lifting her head higher towards the supreme source of light and strength and turning to discover the complete meaning and a vaster form of her Dharma."</b></i>
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#5
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As India marches ahead economically, it will go Westernized at a much faster Phase than China because the present generation of Indians are not very conversant with the Indian values<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Indians are becoming more religious, with more money and worries, they are heading towards temple and tries to follow every rituals. I have felt major difference in extended family and friends back home within 10-15 years. More temples are coming up. People are donating more. Festivals and tiny mini religious days are followed with big celebration or rituals.
Education system need to be changed not by commies but by educated people who have interest of Bharat in heart.
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#6
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Nov 27 2005, 10:52 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Nov 27 2005, 10:52 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As India marches ahead economically, it will go Westernized at a much faster Phase than China because the present generation of Indians are not very conversant with the Indian values<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Indians are becoming more religious, with more money and worries, they are heading towards temple and tries to follow every rituals. I have felt major difference in extended family and friends back home within 10-15 years. More temples are coming up. People are donating more. Festivals and tiny mini religious days are followed with big celebration or rituals.
Education system need to be changed not by commies but by educated people who have interest of Bharat in heart.
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I second that view that as India gets prosperous and knowledgable, it will look to its roots and dig deep into those roots to come up with its own answers. Do not expect the India of 2500 AD to look like the India of 2500 BC and in that lies the salvation of Hindu society that we will assimilate, learn and move forward. All of this with two caveats, Hindu society honestly corrects its social ills of caste and ignorance (including dharmic) and second learns to deal with non-dharmic civilizations with responses necessary to safeguard hindu society. While i am optimistic the cultural challege of the west coupled with their econnomic, philosophical and organizational challenges are formidable.
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#7
I am not every optimistic, there are two things that we are facing which will decide whether Bharat will survive territorially and culturally, one of them is the slow gain in % by the Arab wannabes in India, this will definitely cause territorial disintigration (the 3 states that are already on this path are Assam, Kerala and West Bengal), so we will have 3 more replications of Kashmir in the future, culturally the onslaught comes from westernisation and I don't see any efforts to stop either of the 2 onslaughts so I doubt India will survive as Bharat.
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#8
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Nov 28 2005, 12:10 PM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Nov 28 2005, 12:10 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am not every optimistic, there are two things that we are facing which will decide whether Bharat will survive territorially and culturally, one of them is the slow gain in % by the Arab wannabes in India, this will definitely cause territorial disintigration (the 3 states that are already on this path are Assam, Kerala and West Bengal), so we will have 3 more replications of Kashmir in the future, culturally the onslaught comes from westernisation and I don't see any efforts to stop either of the 2 onslaughts so I doubt India will survive as Bharat.
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My personal view is that the Muslim population can be converted back to their ancestral religion. I know, I am in the fringe minority but incidentally, Aurobindo Gosh had the same view.
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#9
Have faith. That is all I can say.
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#10
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->My personal view is that the Muslim population can be converted back to their ancestral religion. I know, I am in the fringe minority but incidentally, Aurobindo Gosh had the same view.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They breed too fast to be reconverted, by the time you convert 1 Muslim there are 100 more Muslim babies ready to serve the cause of Islam in future, the way I see it if Hindus don't counterbreed then all 3 states will be lopped off, there will be a second partition.
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#11
Counter breeding is impractical. It is all very nice for the man to say lets counter breed but the woman has to do 90% of the work of bearing and rearing the child and they simply will not agree, especially since most of them work today.

I think proselytizing and reconverting is feasible. It must be done on a large scale. It must be welll funded( by overseas Indians).It must be done in a bold,open, brazen and daring way, to give notice to our adversaries that the Hindu is going on the offensive.We will do unto others what others have done to us, but from now onwards we will do it first. It is entirely possible. One has to target entire villages and communities. Target the top honcho first and he will bring in the rest of his flock. We should target converting 10 million a year. For that we will need 1 million volunteers. Eventually the goal should be to convert most of the population.
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#12
Proselytisation as a legal right and a fundamental right can also be challenged. The following article argues in that direction.

http://www.sulekha.com/blogs/blogdisplay.aspx?cid=39842
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#13
Sankrant Sanu is somebody i have great respect for. But it is unrealistic to expect the world to eschew freedom of religion . Because freedom of religion has become synonymous with freedom to proselytize and the established western churches know it

We can take the practical approach, somewhat similar to our stance on nuclear weapons. We dont like it but as long as others do it we will excel at it .

In reality the organized church is mortally afraid of our 'pagan' religion as it is drawing votaries right now without any effort on our part.

Along with the proselytiization comes a new way of perceiving Hinduism. Some pointers

1.It is a great privilege to be a Hindu,the dharma of dharmas

2. You must go through a ceremony to be recognized as a HIndu

3. You have obligations as a Hindu,including an obligatory amount of charity and the responsibility to proselytize

etc.etc.

If Hindus become good at it, pretty soon there will be clamor against proselytization by the west and then depending on circumstances the various religions can work out a new ethic based on the new realities.

Right now we are fighting with one hand tied behind our back, implying that we look down on proselytization.

Incidentally, i see few alternatives to proselytization if our goal is to preserve the HIindu ethos and the grand freedom that it gives the human mind. The beauty of proselytization is that the seculars cannot object to it since other religions in India are already heavily involved.
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#14
Kaushal

It is these western churches who have made this concept as a fundamental right. It is for us to challenge it. Will that actually make proselytisation illegal ? I dont think so. But the idea where a person is wedded exclusively wedded to ONE religion at a given time leading to huuge wars etc has to be publicly denounced with good arguments like SS does. This will have a tilt, and will result in some practical measures if done effectively. While we can definitely explore proselytisation, there is a HUGE asymmetry of power, of discourse etc so essentially we will just be doing catching up.. Catching up in terms defined by the other players as in AMD against Intel.
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#15
rajesh, you are of course right in almost everything you say in the above postand granted we make some inroads into the viewpoint that the days of 'exclusively belonging' to any one faith are probably numbered and as a result proselytization might lose some of its sharp edges and that churches may become more ecumenical in nature. Let us assume we accept such a premise. Then what ?

The demographic onslaught will continue. Muslims will reach parity with Hindus in the subcontinent by about 2050 ce. Many districts of India will become majority Muslim. Assam, WBengal and kerala and maybe Hyderabad city may decide to secede from the republic If we go by past experience they will start curtailing the freedom of Hindus in their areas and start induilging in abduction and forcible conversion of women and children. The frequency of rioting will go up. They may decide to impose jizziya on the Hindu population in these areas. You may say this is farfetched. However there is an existence theorem for each of these modes of behavior even in this day and age. The scenario i have sketched is quite likely and has smore than 50% probability of happening. Will themullahs be willing to listen to you and me that allegiance to an exclusive religion is a thing of the past and that in fact the Koran is basically wrong. I am not sanguine about such an outcome (although i am not losing sleep over it)
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#16
Kaushal garu,

Balagangadhara argues that hinduism is not a religion. He further argues that the only 3 instances of the object religion are xtianity, islam and judaism. He also argues that religion needs to spread in order to survive and in his study of xtianity he finds proselytisation and secularisation as its 2 arms to spread.

At this time in history, it is hard for islam to proselytise or secularise. It is left with the islamic womb in order to spread. Notice that within the xtian states, xtianity also tends to resort to the womb solution by constant attacks on abortion, family planning, homosexuality etc.

So we have 2 enemies with 2 different strategies. We will need to counter strategies. One to counter proselytisation and another for demographic warfare. We perhaps also need to change the terms of discourse.

GSub has argued well that proselytisation by itself is not a good counter strategy against demographic warfare. I dont know what but we will have to do better then that. At a minimum we have to make our country make a concious and well informed decision.
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#17
<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Dec 4 2005, 05:50 PM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Dec 4 2005, 05:50 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Kaushal garu,

Balagangadhara argues that hinduism is not a religion. He further argues that the only 3 instances of the object religion are xtianity, islam and judaism. He also argues that religion needs to spread in order to survive and in his study of xtianity he finds proselytisation and secularisation as its 2 arms to spread.

At this time in history, it is hard for islam to proselytise or secularise. It is left with the islamic womb in order to spread. Notice that within the xtian states, xtianity also tends to resort to the womb solution by constant attacks on abortion, family planning, homosexuality etc.

So we have 2 enemies with 2 different strategies. We will need to counter strategies. One to counter proselytisation and another for demographic warfare. We perhaps also need to change the terms of discourse.

GSub has argued well that proselytisation by itself is not a good counter strategy against  demographic warfare. I dont know what but we will have to do better then that. At a minimum we have to make our country make a concious and well informed decision.
[right][snapback]42513[/snapback][/right]
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I believe only a frontal attack by Hindu society on Islam as a political ideology will be able to confront the demographic onslaught. Things such as the relative slowing rate of growth of muslims compared to the previous decades and the progressing forces of modernity are not enough to stop the on slaught. We should discuss, how that can happen and what will it take to convert indian muslim masses?
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#18
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe only a frontal attack by Hindu society on Islam as a political ideology will be able to confront the demographic onslaught. Things such as the relative slowing rate of growth of muslims compared to the previous decades and the progressing forces of modernity are not enough to stop the on slaught. We should discuss, how that can happen and what will it take to convert indian muslim masses?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly an attack on Islam has been done since the days of Arya Samaj right down to our own times by Voice of India but that has not prevented the demogrpahic onslaught, all these years Muslims have been gaining while Hindus have been declining in % terms, where the demographic onslaught was stopped was in today's Pakistan before partition, here Hindus and Sikhs went on increasing right until partition because they had about the same birth rate as Muslims and under the Arya Samaj a lot of reconversions were happening and migration was happening from East Punjab but the main reason was that they closely matched Muslim birth rate. You can attack Islam all you want but that will not prevent the demographic onslaught (unless you manage to make millions of Muslims leave Islam each year) which is virtually impossible, reconversion while good is ineffective because of the fact that by the time you convert one there are a 100 more of them ready.
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#19
The instances you mention are highly localized and were good for only a small part of the vast mosaic that is India.In order to tackle the problem on an all India basis, you have to mobiize from Kanyakumari to the Karakorum pass. In any event that is the only option left which is voluntary. Dictating how many children to have will not work because it is coercive. I am confident Hindus will come together for a larger cause on a voluntary basis, but the key is to organize. In any event we have few choices but to organize.
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#20
<!--QuoteBegin-Kaushal+Dec 6 2005, 11:25 PM-->QUOTE(Kaushal @ Dec 6 2005, 11:25 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The instances you mention are highly localized and were good for only  a small part of the vast mosaic that is India.In order to tackle the problem on an all India basis, you have to mobiize from Kanyakumari to the  Karakorum pass. In any event that is the only option left which is voluntary. Dictating how many children to have will not work because it is coercive. I am confident Hindus will come together for a larger cause on a voluntary basis, but the key is to organize. In any event we have few choices but to organize.
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Sri Aurobindo had once said that once Hindus in India consolidates, Muslim problem will be resolved automatically.

Seems to be a perfect solution.
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