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romanian racist clip that was banned.

the black birds represent the rromas.

I start this thread with the intention to track what the Celebrities say or write in various media. I roll off with Deepak Chopra's essay on his novel "Muhammad".

[url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/making-muhammad-safe_b_740174.html"]Making Muhmmad Safe[/url]

Quote:For the past decade Islam has been suffering from fear almost everywhere you look. Arab countries are afraid of being invaded by the U.S. in the wake of the invasion of Iraq. Sunni Muslims are nervous about the rise of Iran to a nuclear state dominated by Shiites. But on a far more personal level, everyone is afraid to say anything about Muhammad that would inflame the faithful. I've experienced this recently myself. On tour for a novel about Muhammad -- one that I wrote primarily to tell Westerners that the Prophet led an exciting, inspiring life -- the first word that comes up in every interview is "fatwa." The first question is, "Aren't you afraid to write this book?"

Every religion takes sole possession of its founder. That's what makes it strong. That and claiming that your version of God is the only correct one. But nobody who writes books about Jesus or Buddha does so in fear. The irony is that the stronger the faith, the more open it is to intolerance. Fundamentalist Christians believe that everyone else is an outsider to the true faith, including other Christians. But Islam has become locked down to an extraordinary degree. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unsure:' /> Those of us who want to write as sympathetically as possible about Muhammad, without giving in to official hagiography, are warned off. We are made to walk on eggshells. Saddest of all, those Muslims who are pleased to see a novel about Muhammad's life scan it nervously to make sure that nothing is out of place.

Isn't it time to make Muhammad a safe topic? The Danish cartoonist who lampooned the Prophet stepped into taboo territory because Islam forbids any physical depiction of him. But Islamic art over the centuries has come to terms with the strictures against painting portraits and taking photos of people's faces. Adaptation means survival, and those forces in Islam that don't want to adapt, far from preserving their faith for eternity, are endangering it.

The irony of the situation is double, actually. Muhammad recognized Jews and Christians as people of the Book, along with Muslims. They are not outsiders but fellow worshipers. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />Islam was meant to be an umbrella that includes them and tolerates their faith. So the fundamentalist streak in Islam isn't true to the spirit of the Prophet. The very notion that the Quran should never be translated from the Arabic and never commented upon was born (so far as I can ascertain) among his followers after the Prophet's death. As a result, the other people of the Book have passed through reform movements and adaptations that have been denied to the Muslim faithful.

Surrounding the Prophet with veneration is one thing. We can all understand and respect that. But surrounding him with threats, a kind of theological barbed wire, is another thing. It isn't acceptable to the outside world, and moderate Arabs would be well served to speak out against it. I don't mean to dictate to anyone how they should follow their religion. But we've come to an impasse if no one is allowed to speak the truth about Muhammad or comment upon his life. As long as freedom of thought is considered the enemy, the Islamic world will be embroiled in fear forever.

Hopefully once Muhammad is made safe, Muhammad will be ready to receive criticisms.
Folks - I'm looking for two articles that had been published a long time ago on this forum - but search does not lead me to them...

- an article on the Islamization of Kashmir (not the Hira Fotedar article that has been doing the rounds)

- an article by an Indian Muslim about other Indian Muslims seldom participating in discussions on National Security issues...

Does anybody remember these articles - any links will be helpful.
With the Ayodhya verdict, we are going to have a "celebrities rain" is going to be horrendous.

Shabnam Hashmi opens her mouth [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Verdict-makes-me-feel-like-a-2nd-class-citizen/articleshow/6661933.cms"]'Verdict makes me feel like a 2nd-class citizen'[/url]

Quote:NEW DELHI: The Ayodhya title suit was not just a dispute over a patch of land, it was being seen by many, particularly the minorities, as a test of India's commitment to secularism. So, did India pass the test successfully on Thursday? Though there are no shrill reactions to the verdict from the country's biggest minority group, there are many voices of disappointment.

Historian Irfan Habib feels the "compromise judgment" had come at the cost of history and facts. "It is improper (for the court) to accept the ASI report on the historical fact. Weight has been given to belief. One should be careful in historical facts," says Habib.

Though members of Muslim intelligentsia put up a brave face on TV channels, talking in politically-correct terms, in private, many accept that they see the verdict as "anti-Muslim". "The Muslims of India have been told very clearly that they have to live in this country on the terms set by the majority community. From now on we have to live in constant fear," says a former vice-chancellor of a central university.

But others are a bit more forthcoming. Shabnam Hashmi, well-known social activist who heads Sahmat, says the verdict made her feel like a "second-class citizen". "We will not stop the struggle against irrationality and hatred but we can no longer promise to hand over a secular, democratic nation to you," says Hashmi, in her "message to the next generation".

The Muslims are disappointed but they have not given up hope. And the verdict has not shaken their in the idea of India. "My sentiment about this judgment is in this couplet from Faiz. "Ye dil na umeed to nahi nakaam hi to hai, lambi hai gum ki sham magar sham hi to hai (The heart is despondent but not without hope, long is sorrows evening but its an evening after all)," says Syeda Hameed, a member of the Planning Commission.

Such poetic words notwithstanding, there are fears in the community that the right-wing Hindu fanatics may now start raising old issues of "liberation of Kashi and Mathura". "Today the Lucknow court put its stamp of approval on the destruction of Babri Masjid. Can anybody guarantee us that such incidents will not happen in the future? I guess not," says the former VC.

There is no palpable fear and tension on the streets and everybody is talking about "reconcilaition" and "moving on". This, according to some, is a sign of hope. "Despite the feeling of disappointment, this is an opportunity on both sides to use the interregnum before the time for appeals to talk," says Najeeb Jung, an academic from Jamia Milia Islamia. The Mulsims may be seeking a closure of the issue, but it's hard to deny that verdict has left them sad and disappointed.
I thought Sahmat = Equality of all religions till I found out its an acronym for her husband's memorial trust(Safdar Hashmi Memorial Trust)!

Talk about hiding under acronyms!

Quote:Sahmat slams Ayodhya verdict, finds it 'gravely disturbing'

October 01, 2010 11:20:29 PM

IANS | New Delhi

The Allahabad High Court judgment on Ayodhya is a "blow" to India's secular fabric, a group of over 50 eminent historians, artists and activists said Friday, raising their "serious concerns because of the way history, reason and secular values" have been treated in the verdict.

Coming together under the umbrella of Sahmat (Safdar Hashmi Memorial Trust), they questioned the court's premise to base its judgment on the findings of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), which had claimed that remains of a temple were found beneath the mosque.

"The judgment delivered by the Lucknow bench of the Allahabad High Court in the Ramjanmabhoomi-Babri Masjid dispute has raised serious concerns because of the way history, reason and secular values have been treated in it," said a joint statement signed by eminent personalities like Romila Thapar, D.N. Jha, K.N. Panikkar, Irfan Habib, Zoya Hasan, M.K. Raina and Madan Gopal Singh.

".. the view that the Babri Masjid was built at the site of a Hindu temple, which has been maintained by two of the three judges, takes no account of all the evidence contrary to this fact turned up by the Archaeological Survey of India's own excavations -- the presence of animal bones throughout as well as of the use of ‘surkhi' and lime mortar (all characteristic of Muslim presence) rule out the possibility of a Hindu temple having been there beneath the mosque," the statement said.

It also alleged that the ASI's findings were fraudulent.

"The ASI's controversial report which claimed otherwise on the basis of ‘pillar bases' was manifestly fraudulent in its assertions since no pillars were found, and the alleged existence of ‘pillar bases' has been debated by archaeologists."

According to the statement, site notebooks, artefacts and other material evidence relating to the ASI's excavation be made available for scrutiny to scholars, historians and archaeologists.

"No proof has been offered even of the fact that a Hindu belief in Lord Rama's birth-site being the same as the site of the mosque had at all existed before very recent times, let alone since ‘time immemorial'."

"Not only is the judgment wrong in accepting the antiquity of this belief, but it is gravely disturbing that such acceptance should then be converted into an argument for deciding property entitlement. This seems to be against all principles of law and equity," the experts stated.

As they see it, the most objectionable part of the judgment is the legitimisation it provides to violence and muscle-power.

"While it recognises the forcible break-in of 1949 which led to placing the idols under the mosque-dome, it now recognises, without any rational basis, that the transfer put the idols in their rightful place."

"Even more astonishingly, it accepts the destruction of the mosque in 1992 (in defiance, let it be remembered, of the Supreme Court's own orders) as an act whose consequences are to be accepted, by transferring the main parts of the mosque to those clamouring for a temple to be built," the statement said.

For all these reasons, the statement said, they "see the judgment as yet another blow to the secular fabric of our country and the repute of our judiciary".

"Whatever happens next in the case cannot, unfortunately, make good what the country has lost," they added.

A three-judge bench of the Allahabad High Court's Lucknow bench Thursday ruled by majority that a temple had been destroyed to build the Babri mosque in Ayodhya in the 16th century and so the mosque violated Islamic tenets.

The judges ruled that the entire disputed land in Ayodhya should be divided among the Sunni Waqf Board, Hindus and the Nirmohi Akhara, a Hindu sect, who were among those who fought the court battle.

The status quo, however, would be maintained for the next three months, the court ordered.

Only the pillar bases remain as the pillars were brought down!
Courtesy ramana garu.

Romila Thapar gives her verdict.

[url="http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/02/stories/2010100251271300.htm"]It has annulled respect for history and seeks to replace it with religious faith.[/url]

Quote:The verdict is a political judgment and reflects a decision which could as well have been taken by the state years ago. Its focus is on the possession of land and the building a new temple to replace the destroyed mosque. The problem was entangled in contemporary politics involving religious identities but also claimed to be based on historical evidence. This latter aspect has been invoked but subsequently set aside in the judgment.

The court has declared that a particular spot is where a divine or semi-divine person was born and where a new temple is to be built to commemorate the birth. This is in response to an appeal by Hindu faith and belief. Given the absence of evidence in support of the claim, such a verdict is not what one expects from a court of law. Hindus deeply revere Rama as a deity but can this support a legal decision on claims to a birth-place, possession of land and the deliberate destruction of a major historical monument to assist in acquiring the land?

The verdict claims that there was a temple of the 12th Century AD at the site which was destroyed to build the mosque — hence the legitimacy of building a new temple.

The excavations of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) and its readings have been fully accepted even though these have been strongly disputed by other archaeologists and historians. Since this is a matter of professional expertise on which there was a sharp difference of opinion the categorical acceptance of the one point of view, and that too in a simplistic manner, does little to build confidence in the verdict. One judge stated that he did not delve into the historical aspect since he was not a historian but went to say that history and archaeology were not absolutely essential to decide these suits! Yet what are at issue are the historicity of the claims and the historical structures of the past one millennium.

A mosque built almost 500 years ago and which was part of our cultural heritage was destroyed wilfully by a mob urged on by a political leadership. There is no mention in the summary of the verdict that this act of wanton destruction, and a crime against our heritage, should be condemned. The new temple will have its sanctum — the presumed birthplace of Rama — in the area of the debris of the mosque. Whereas the destruction of the supposed temple is condemned and becomes the justification for building a new temple, the destruction of the mosque is not, perhaps by placing it conveniently outside the purview of the case.

Has created a precedent

The verdict has created a precedent in the court of law that land can be claimed by declaring it to be the birthplace of a divine or semi-divine being worshipped by a group that defines itself as a community. There will now be many such janmasthans wherever appropriate property can be found or a required dispute manufactured. Since the deliberate destruction of historical monuments has not been condemned what is to stop people from continuing to destroy others? The legislation of 1993 against changing the status of places of worship has been, as we have seen in recent years, quite ineffective.

What happened in history, happened. It cannot be changed. But we can learn to understand what happened in its fuller context and strive to look at it on the basis of reliable evidence. We cannot change the past to justify the politics of the present. The verdict has annulled respect for history and seeks to replace history with religious faith. True reconciliation can only come when there is confidence that the law in this country bases itself not just on faith and belief, but on evidence.
Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/enter...664097.cms

Quote:Shabana Azmi: "It is time for reconciliation. We need to take a cue from people of India who have held their peace. We need to remind those disappointed with the verdict that they had promised to abide by the court's decision irrespective of whether it was favourable or not. I appeal to politicial parties not to vitiate the atmosphere in the coming days. Let's move on..."
Hari engaged in a public debate with the historians Niall Ferguson.

Could be OT for this thread but need to think about it.

Pioneer Op-Ed.


Quote:Hominid to humanOctober 25, 2010 8:24:03 PM

The Pioneer Edit Desk

New research debunks old theories

Human evolution has been one of the enduring mysteries of our time, and the more it is sought to be understood with the help of cutting edge technology and advanced research, the further surprises it throws up, sometimes forcing us to rewrite earlier assumptions. For instance, we have grown up believing that more the researchers travel backwards in time, the greater confirmatory evidence they will get of our linkage with chimpanzees. Fifteen years ago, scientists were taken back 4.4 million years when they encountered in Ethiopia the fossils of a female hominid, soon named Ardipithecus Ramidus. This female hominid was not only at least one million years older than the famous Lucy skeleton whose discovery had enthralled the world’s scientific community for years, it also triggered a new thought process that, perhaps, Ramidus was the direct launch pad for the present day human evolution. According to a report published in a recent issue of the National Geographic, while this veteran hominid had some very primitive traits found in monkeys and some extinct species of apes, she also bore characteristics like a big toe and a short and broad upper pelvis that helps humans to walk erect — unique to our own hominid lineage. Anatomists and others who have been studying her are also excited by another aspect — which confounds our long-held belief of clearly demarcated evolutionary stages — and it is that Ramidus could be that rare hominid who was caught midway, as it were, while evolving to another level. Take just two examples: If its upper pelvis was human-like, its lower pelvis bore all the characteristics of a monkey, and the fingers and palm of its hands were so built that they might have been used both for clambering on trees like monkeys do and walk upright on the ground like present day humans do. The National Geographic report points out that if Ramidus’s discoverers are right, it would mean that our ancestors neither knuckle-walked nor were they chimps. Of course, the final verdict is yet to come. In fact, some experts quoted in the National Geographic report have wondered if Ardipithecus Ramidus was indeed a hominid, and if so, was it bipedal? Because if it were not, several of the novel theories that are emerging of our evolution following the Ramidus discovery would crash.

But what remains uncontested is that barely 200,000 years after Ardipithecus Ramidus made her baffling appearance, the fully bipedal Lucy arrived. She represented the Australopithecus genus, and every hominid that followed her stuck to bipedalism, making it easier for researchers to trace back our evolution. But simply because Lucy came later, it does not automatically follow that her Australopithecus genus evolved from Ardipithecus Ramidus. So, is this wonderful Ramidus woman the last common ancestor we share with the chimpanzee? That’s possible. It’s equally possible that there was someone else as fascinating as Ardipithicus Ramidus waiting to be discovered. For the moment, we can only consider with amazement the fascinating possibilities of our evolution through the ages.

To me Ramidus represents the historical memory of vanaras that is passed on to us in the Ramayana. Its the half monkey, half man that is so vividly described.

Watch out for future 3-D model reconstructions of Ramidus on Discovery and BBC. Anyone recall the Humanzee episode on Discovery channel.
Just visited after a long time. Tried to get to the home page at www.india-forum.com It loads for a few seconds and then the browser takes me to a Turkish blog at byege.blogspot.com No way for me to prevent this. It is happening on Windows and Mac with Safari, Chrome and IE.

Am I the only one with this problem? if it has been discussed before, my apologies, I could not find the topic in forums.

As is obvious, I can access the forums, but not the home page of India-forum, either by typing it manually or by clicking on the link on this page.

Same problem with homepage. Forum needs to be backed up....
[quote name='Pradeep' date='29 October 2010 - 12:57 AM' timestamp='1288293540' post='109041']

Just visited after a long time. Tried to get to the home page at www.india-forum.com It loads for a few seconds and then the browser takes me to a Turkish blog at byege.blogspot.com [/quote]What, Turkish hackers chose to grace IF with their sudden intervention? Oh way to go IF! At last ya Hindoos, you ticked off some people! Proof of IF visibility, even if not universal popularity (don't let it get to ya, there's no pleasing christoislamania anyway).

But to what do you owe the honour: what did you guys do, I'd like to know? Usually Turkish cyber activists only monitor for and bring down sites covering the Armenian genocide by the islamofascists of what is now called Turkey.

Disclaimer: That's not to say that I have anything against Turks. Odd word that, "Turks". Their predominant genetics appears to be regional Greek and Roman, not of Turkmenistan or Turkestan or wherever - meaning their ancestral religion is Hellenismos. As one knows, Anatolia, next to having been an extension of Greek lands, had early on also exported (what would in time become) the Romans to Rome - from Anatolia's Troy, we're told (or so I remember it, but I could be wrong). Plus, the very Standard Of Heathenism (Julian) was born in Anatolia I think, in no less a city than what is now called Istanbul, in what was in his time (equally unfortunately) called Constantinople. That makes it all a nice Roman re-route back to Anatolia: first and last famous heathen Roman kings/emperors emanated from there: the first held to be the son of Mars/Ares, the last very reasonably considered himself a spiritual son of Helios.

And its Hellenistic ancestry is why Anatolia (called Turkey since last century despite the people not even really being Turks) is chock full of sacred Hellenistic sites: sites where its population used to worship the Olympic Gods. E.g. Anatolia IIRC also contains the famous Greek temple to Goddess Artemis - one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, I think. May try to confirm this.

And so it surprises no one to find out that a fairly decent number of "Turks" (or rather, ex-islamic Anatolians) - upon learning of Hellenismos - discover that they are at home with their ancestral Hellenistic Gods=religion and thus find themselves reverted wholesale to Hellenismos.

But then, they have it in them: all it takes is just their discovery of Hellenismos (their True, ancestral Gods) to bring it out.

(So what are they doing with the alien barbarian religion of christoislamania which was foisted on them anyway? They're not of "Turkey", nor "Byzantium". They belong to the Gods of l'Olympe - their ancestral Gods - as some have started to remember.)

My bright idea/suggestion would be to temporarily redirect IF's main page to ysee.gr's main *English* page. That way the Turks checking up on how their hack is holding up, may benefit from their fatefully crossing paths with you Hindoos of IF.

Turns out I was right about the aforementioned one of the Seven Wonders. Stolen from National Geographic -

Quote:The Temple of Artemis, Turkey

Color engraving by Ferdinand Knab/The Bridgeman Art Library/Getty Images

The great marble temple dedicated to the Greek goddess Artemis was completed around 550 B.C. at Ephesus, near the modern-day town of Selçuk in Turkey.

In addition to its 120 columns, each standing 60 feet (20 meters) high, the temple was said to have held many exquisite artworks, including bronze statues of the Amazons, a mythical race of female warriors.

A man named Herostratus reportedly burned down the temple in 356 B.C. in an attempt to immortalize his name. After being restored, the temple was destroyed by the Goths in A.D. 262 and again by the Christians in A.D. 401 on the orders of Saint John Chrysostom, then archbishop of Constantinople (Istanbul).

[color="#800080"](The last was demonstrably ideologically motivated: i.e. it was due to christomania, the possession by the non-existent jeebus.)[/color]

Today the temple's foundations have been excavated and some of its columns re-erected.
[quote name='ramana' date='01 October 2010 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1285955384' post='108616']

I thought Sahmat = Equality of all religions till I found out its an acronym for her husband's memorial trust(Safdar Hashmi Memorial Trust)!


Shabnam Hashmi is married to Gauhar Raza, another marxist.

She is the sister of Safdar Hashmi, the guy who is sought to be memorialized by the organization SAHMAT.

Safdar Hashmi's wife is Moloyshree Hashmi.

thorium Energy Conference - ThEC2010 - A Success
maybe you want to see this romaindian

Europe is burning

LONDON | Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:59am EST

LONDON (Reuters) - As austerity bites, Western Europe faces a near inevitable rise in protest and unrest in 2011 which is likely to hit markets and dampen weak governments' appetite for reform but not affect policies dramatically.

So far, social unrest over the financial crisis has varied from country to country. In some of the worst affected nations such as Ireland and Latvia, acceptance and even apathy has prevailed, while Greece has seen fatalities and street clashes.

Increasingly, there are signs of rising social pressures. Many Western European countries are only just embarking on multi-year deficit-reduction packages, a hard sell in states where expectations have risen for generations.

Greek protesters clashed with police in central Athens on Wednesday as tens of thousands marched against austerity measures aimed at pulling the country out of a debt crisis. On Tuesday, Italian rioters and police fought battles in Rome after Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi won a no-confidence vote.

Britain saw its worst clashes in two decades last week as students demonstrated over tuition fee rises, with Prince Charles and wife Camilla caught up in the melee. More unrest is expected next year as unions protest against much broader cuts.

"It's almost inevitable that there will be more protest in 2011 than 2010, particularly in countries such as Greece and the UK where there are real public divisions over how much austerity is necessary," said Carina O'Reilly, European security analyst at IHS Jane's. "It's going to get nastier. We could well see deaths or serious injuries. We could well have seen deaths in the London riots last week. We were just lucky."

None of the European protests have so far had a major policy impact. But in some countries at least, particularly those with upcoming elections, worries over further unrest will deter the government from more aggressive reforms.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy forced through pensions reform despite widespread protests earlier this year. But he faces elections in 2012 while Berlusconi is expected to test the electorate next year despite having won this week's vote.


"The propensity for civil unrest in France and Italy will act as a check on their governments," said Nomura political analyst Alastair Newton. "Sarkozy may have seen off the unions ... but they are angry and will want to reassert themselves possibly around the public sector pay round in the spring."

Spain has elections in 2012 and Portugal's minority government is also seen lacking the political clout to manage serious street protests -- again slowing reform at least as long as markets remain more forgiving than for Ireland or Greece.

But at the same time, Portuguese and Spanish unions and many potential protesters are also seen as reluctant to take steps which could spark the downfall of left-of-center governments and usher in the right.

The two Western European countries facing the deepest cuts -- Greece and Ireland -- have seen very different trends in terms of protest and unrest. Both are being watched closely by wider markets, and any suggestion reforms might be threatened could spook investors worldwide.

Violent demonstrations in Athens in May which saw three people die in a burning bank hit global markets, but also sparked national soul-searching and a falloff in protests.



Riots break out in Athens during general strike, as tens of thousands protest austerity

15 December 2010

Link includes raw footage video [url="http://www.latimes.c"]http://www.latimes.c[/url]​om/business/nationwo​rld/wire/sns-ap-eu-g​reece-financial-cris​is,0,1595125.story


Riots In Rome after Silvio Berlusconi emerges vict...

15 December 2010

Link includes raw footage video [url="http://video.aol.ca/"]http://video.aol.ca/[/url]​video-detail/riots-i​n-rome-after-silvio-​berlusconi-emerges-v​ictorious/3750477948​/?icid=VIDURVNWS04

New Delhi, Dec. 18: Yasmin, the Bengal girl rescued here on Thursday, today said she preferred her “new life” to the poverty and hunger that awaited her back home, shining a light on causes that underpin trafficking and the challenges ahead of rehabilitation agencies. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101219/js...320016.jsp

Yasmin (name changed), 16, also confirmed that her relative Kashmira Bibi had handed her over to traffickers.

“Ghar jaane se achchha hai yahan pe mar jana (better to die here than return home),” the girl, kidnapped from Kakdwip in April last year, told The Telegraph in fluent Hindi.
Has nothing to do with India, let alone Hindus.

Australian couple, who already have 3 sons, then aborted twin boys (conceived via IVF, not that that makes a difference) just so they can have a girl to ease the Mrs' mind over a sad loss of a daughter earlier. I.e. purpose of daughter is solely to appease the mind of the wife. (Else she should have been happy with the twins she conceived.)


Quote:Desperate couple's bid to have a girl

00:06 AEST Sat Jan 8 2011

A couple that aborted twin boys conceived through IVF because they wanted a baby girl are trying to win the right to choose the sex of their next child.

The couple, who have three sons naturally but lost a baby girl shortly after birth, chose to terminate an IVF pregnancy when they learned the twins they were having were both boys, The Herald Sun reports.

They have gone to the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal (VCAT) in an attempt to to win the right to choose the sex of their next child using IVF.

The couple said the decision to abort their twin boys was traumatic but necessary because they did not want to have numerous babies in their bid for a girl.

[color="#800080"](Oh it was traumatic. For them. Again, it's all about them: the choice to have kids and keep trying for it is about them, the choice to have a girl is about them, the choice to do away with their boys is about them. And the trauma is about them too: how they feel about their 'difficult decision'.

Some people never grow up, I guess. They still imagine the world revolves around their little aspirations and is consequently subject to this. But it's a pity that others have to be pawns in their quest for cheap thrills.

And the keenness of the experience of the couple's "trauma" concerning their decision to abort is surely lessened by their *trivial* motivations and reasoning about it all. After all, aren't the latter a measure of their capacity for the former? Am I wrong?)[/color]

They have said they are prepared to travel to the US to conceive a girl, where it is legal to select the sex of a child through IVF, if their case fails in Victoria.

The mother became obsessed with having a girl after their first girl died shortly after she was born.

She said having a girl was vital to her psychological health and although she loved her sons she would do anything to have a girl.

The man said: "After what we have been through we are due for a bit of luck. We want to be given the opportunity to have a girl."

Under Australian laws IVF clinics are only allowed to enable couples to select the sex of their children to reduce the transmission of a serious genetic condition.

An independent panel known as the Patient Review Panel recently rejected their bid to choose the sex of their next child.

VCAT, which has ruled that it has the right to review the panel's decision, will hear the case in March.

No outrage? Guess that's only reserved for those cheap self-centered rich Indians who also do the same type of easy "gender-selection". (But curiously, *all* Indians get tarred with the behaviour of X numbers of people of the same nationality who the rest of the nation has little else in common with. It's always held up as a reminder or used as public set-down of Indians' - or worse, unreasonably exclusively "Hindus"' - inhumanity/base humanity. But, if argued that way, thoughtlessness is clearly not solely the predilection of modern Indians. The *same* rules apply and hence the same conclusions derived.)

I'm not booing abortion. One can allow that there are cases where it is necessary and for that reason should be legally available with provisos (so it's not applied on a whim). But selfishness should never be a motivation in what are *incredibly* weighty and non-trivial decisions. One lives (and dies) with the choices one makes and the situations they were made in.
Weird: http://www.cathnewsindia.com/2011/02/09/...olic-sage/

Teacher rediscovers Hinduism through Catholic sage

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