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Miscellaneous Topics
Just wondering.... if Raul Khan aka Rahul Gandhi feels Gandhi family is to be credited with breaking up of Pakistan(1971), then surely Gandhi family should also be credited with the 1962 debacle, dividing Indian states on linguistic lines, Kashmir problem, the emergency, the corrupt 'Licence Raj' etc.
Blog on Hyderabad history and personalities
Ihave started a thread "shakthi worship at melmalaiyanur, tamilnadu few days ago.
I also posted certain pictures and video links.
But now i could not find my thread.
i dont know why
i tried to contact Amin and mod. but the contact attempt is failed.
Hence i opend this thread .
<!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thiru.Namasivayam, i have enabled the thread, when you post images here of rituals it would be best if you explain the context and small description of what is being done and why its being done etc, since the images are more often used for nefarious purposes than educative by other groups.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->पत्‍‌नी को साथ रहने के लिए विवश नहीं कर सकते

जयपुर, 19 अप्रैल (प्रेट्र) : राजस्थान हाई कोर्ट ने विवाहित महिलाओं के अधिकारों के संबंध में एक ऐतिहासिक फैसला सुनाया है। अदालत के अनुसार किसी महिला को उसकी इच्छा के विपरीत उसका पति अपने साथ रखने के लिए विवश नहीं कर सकता। महिला यदि अपने प्रेमी के साथ रहना चाहती है तो वह इसके लिए स्वतंत्र है। न्यायालय के इस ऐतिहासिक फैसले ने नैतिकता-अनैतिकता को लेकर एक बहस को जन्म दे दिया है। न्यायमूर्ति ज्ञान सुधा मिश्रा व केसी शर्मा की बेंच ने यह फैसला एक बंदी प्रत्यक्षीकरण याचिका पर सुनाया। याचिका में एक पति ने एक व्यक्ति पर अपनी पत्नी को बंधक बनाने का आरोप लगाया था। अदालत ने सुनवाई के दौरान पाया कि महिला को बंधक नहीं बनाया गया था बल्कि वह अपनी इच्छा से अपनी ससुराल छोड़कर अपने प्रेमी के साथ रहने गई थी।


In a historic judgement, Jaipur High Court rules that, legally, a wife is free to live with her lover if she likes to. She can not be forced to live with her husband without her consent.
The above article is the kind of Hindi that I can easily understand, very few foreign words (eg: faisla, court etc) but most is shudh Hindi and almost all of the descriptive words are common with Telugu.

Examples include vivahit, pathi, pathni, etihasik, adhikaro, sambandh, mahila, nyayalay, nyayamantri, premi, swatantr, pratyakshikaran, yaachak, vyakti, bandhak, aarop, bandhi, iccha, anusaar, vipareet, vivasha.

No wonder the losers in the gov't didn't promote such shudh Hindi in speech cuz they knew it would unite the country far more than bollywood trash ever could.
Yes Bharatvarsh. Another word is 'sasural' which is from Sanskrit SwasurAlaya : 'the house of the father in law'. What is it called in Telugu, Tamil, Bangla, other languages?

One thing which I don't know why Indic language new papers dont follow is, Indic abbreviation of the names. E.g. in the above news, "Justice KC Sharma" might as well be abbreviated as "Nyayamurti kri. cha. Sharma" (assuming it is Krishna Chandra). Or is that too much and too difficult to ask?
Mother in law in Telugu is simply called attha but father in law in literary telugu can also be called svasurudu (although rarely done since most people don't know that word, so mama is used most of the time).

I think its similar in other North Indian languages, Panjabi has a vocabulary very similar to Hindi but pronounciation differs, one word used in Bengali is sasuri for mother-in-law. In Tamil one word shown in the dictionary was mami/mamiyar.

But for sasural (father in law's house) in Telugu different words can be used to express it, "attavari illu (house)" is the most common.

I don't know about Hindi papers but I did see Telugu papers using Telugu abbreviations, example for Telugu Desam Party instead of saying TDP the Eenadu newspaper uses "te de pa".

Also the actual Hindi word for Faisla could either be nischai or nirnai (there are others also), both of these are common to Telugu also, adalat is nyayalay/nyayastan.
In Punjabi "Sauray ghar" is more popular then "sasural".
Khasam is also for husband, but I think it is urdu word.
Unrelated. Strange events in Thailand - military govt blocking Youtube:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Friday April 27, 03:16 PM
<b>USA For Innovation To Send Message Thailand On Google Youtube</b>
(Full text of a statement. Contact details below.)

USA for Innovation to Release Video Message to People of Thailand Via Google YouTube Service

WASHINGTON, April 27 /PRNewswire-AsiaNet/ --

Military Regime Continues to Censor Free Speech in Thailand

USA for Innovation's Executive Director Ken Adelman will today release a message to the people of Thailand regarding the importance of innovation and concerns about the Thai Government's recent endorsement of theft of American intellectual property.

This message will be available via Google's YouTube service this afternoon beginning at 3:00pm PT at the USA for Innovation YouTube website:


USA for Innovation will also release a transcript of the video via press release to the more than 65 million people who access the Internet in Thailand.

In early April, Thailand's government censored all speech from YouTube, blocking access to Google's video service through controls imposed by the government's Ministry of Information and Technology.

Background on Thai government blocking access to YouTube

On September 19, 2006 a new government came to power in Thailand by military coup.

Earlier this month, the government took steps to block access to YouTube because it viewed videos presenting content related to the Thai government as offensive.

Links to a sample collection of media coverage on the Thai government's censorship of YouTube are available below:

- "YouTube Blackout Raises Concern Over Expanding Censorship in

Thailand," World Politics Watch, April 17, 2007


- "When YouTube is a Threat," International Herald Tribune,

April 22, 2007


- "Thailand Persistent on Removal of YouTube Clips," The Economic Times [India], April 12, 2007

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow 1899600.cms

<Advertising for 'USA for Innovation' follows>

ASIA PULSE<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The more I read these reports gathered by 'Asia Pulse' the more I am curious at their interests in certain topics.
The Great Nation Of India (Namastey London)

Vande Matram

Jana Gana Mana

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK0--em- 6b8&mode= related&search=
Mystic India - One land everyone desire to see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79OiKkdaSWw& mode=related& search=
Incredibly Incredible India

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpqYjAHQtvI& mode=related& search=
Mere Desh Ki Dharti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-PvyZlNtWQ& mode=related& search=
Poorab Aur Pacchim

Matri Bhoomi Pukarti
Deccan chronicle, 6 may 2007.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Funda mentals
By Senjam Raj Sekhar

Cameo, those brief fleeting appearances of a known person in films, adds to the charm of movie watching. It could be an author, a sports person and, in many cases, the director himself. Find out about some famous cameos in this week’s theme.

Please send your letters, questions (with answers) to the following postal address: D 4/11 (Ground Floor), Exclusive Floors, DLF Phase V, Gurgaon. Email id: senjam@gmail.com

Cameo roles

1. Name the character played by Nilanjana Sudeshna Lahiri in Mira Nair’s movie The Namesake.

2. Subhash Ghai started life as an actor but moved to direction when his acting career did not take off. He is known for making cameo appearances with his hat on. From which movie did his "hat on" cameos start?

3. Which two authors make a cameo appearance as themselves in the 2001 movie Bridget Jones’ Diary?

4. For movie fans, what is "Hitch Spotting"?

5. Who plays the role of a stadium drug dealer in the Bruce Willis-starring movie The Unbreakable?

6. Director Siddharth Anand did a three minute cab driver cameo in his own movie as the cabby he had fixed for the shot did not turn up. Preity Zinta handled the camera for the shot. Name the movie.

7. In the 1981 Sai Paranajpe movie Chashme Buddoor, who played the role of Deepti Naval’s father?

8. Peter Jackson of The Lord of Rings fame has made an appearance in all the movies that he made except one. Name the film.

9. Hitchcock’s most celebrated and obscure appearance in his own movie was in the movie The Lifeboat. What was unique about that cameo?

anything goes

1. In German aber means "but". What does it mean in Celtic? (Pijush Nandi, Barasat)

2. If IBM’s tagline is "On Demand Business" and INTEX’s is "Demand More", then whose tagline is "What Business Demands"? (Partha Gupta, Barasat)

3. In the cricket stadium in Indore, there is a huge concrete bat. Why was it built? (Selim Ahmed, Barasat)

4. After the execution of which French revolutionary in 1794, it was tacitly agreed to no longer use the guillotine as a political weapon and the revolution drew to a close? (Shovan Karmakar, Kolkata)

5. What is the name of the capital of Hell in Milton’s Paradise Lost? (Naresh Mukherjee, Kolkata)

6. The Grand Slam in golf has four tournaments, US Open, US Masters, The British Open. Which is the fourth one? (Subrata Biswas, Burnpur)

7. In 1974, which future chief minister was nominated in the Filmfare in the best story category for Bidai? (Somnath Das, Burnpur)

8. In Mahabharata, Arjuna was nicknamed "Sabyasachi". Why? (Prasanjit Bannerjee, Ulhasnagar)

9. Laundry service was the name of whose first album in English? (U. Narasimha Murthy, Secunderabad)

10. Name the only US President not to have lived in White House. (Parvinder Bhatia, Jamshedpur)

11. Which place is known as the "Open Art Gallery of Rajasthan"? (Naresh Mukherjee, Kolkata)

12. Which soccer player of Senegal plays for Liverpool? (Subrata Biswas, Burnpur)

13. What is referred to as "Tombstone Advertising"? (Somnath Das, Burnpur)

14. According to legend, the eye of Osiris, the Egyptian God of healing, when plucked out became immortalised. What was it? (Faruque Ansari, Howrah)

15. In Arabic it means "Woman full of grace". In Hindi, it means "Goddess of Light". Whose name are we talking about? (U. Narasimha Murthy, Secunderabad)

16. In 1931, Kasturbhai, Narottambhai and Chimanbhai incorporated a venture during the swadeshi movement with an objective to indigenously produce fine and superfine cotton fabrics for the Indian markets. What did they establish? (Chakraborty, Kolkata)


Cameo roles

1. Jhumpa Masi. Nilanjana Sudeshna Lahiri is the birth name of Jhumpa Lahiri. Jhumpa had a cameo in The Namesake as Jhumpa Masi.

2. Karz

3. Jeffrey Archer and Salman Rushdie

4. Alfred Hitchcock made a brief cameo appearance in his films. It’s difficult to pick him out, he’s usually only in the shot for a fleeting moment. "Hitch Spotting" is about spotting Hitchcock in his movies.

5. Manoj Night Shyamalan, the director of the movie

6. Salaam Namaste

7. Vinod Doshi, the chairman of Premier Automobiles. Vinod Doshi also made an appearance in the movie Kalyug directed by Shyam Benegal

8. Meet the Feebles

9. Hitchcock did not appear in a live role. He was in a newspaper advertisement for a weight reduction, appearing in the "before" and "after" pictures for Reduco Obesity Slayer

Anything goes

1. Mouth of a river

2. Satyam

3. To commemorate India’s first win against England in England in 1971

4. Maximilien Roberspierre

5. Pandemonium


7. N.T. Rama Rao

8. Because Arjuna was equally good with both his hands

9. Shakira

10. George Washington. He choose the site for it but the house wasn’t completed till the end of his term

11. Shekhawati known for its frescoes, painted havelis, temples etc.

12. El Hadji Diouf

13. An advertisement that only contains text matter

14. The Rx symbol in medical prescription

15. Shakira

16. Arvind Mills

Does any one have copy of 'Parva' by Bhyrappa in English? Can I borrow it or get a copy for myself?

Thanks, ramana
Any other India-Forum member(s) based in and around London? Maybe we could have a get together on some weekend?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->फैजाबाद। फैजाबाद मंडलायुक्त न्यायालय ने शुक्रवार को अपना बहुप्रतीक्षित सुरक्षित फैसला सुनाते हुए अमिताभ बच्चन की निगरानी याचिका खारिज कर दी। न्यायालय ने कहा कि अमिताभ बच्चन को फर्जी व कूटरचित अभिलेखों के आधार पर पूरी तरह गैरकानूनी ढंग से जमीन का स्वामित्व दिया गया था। इस फैसले से सदी के महानायक उपाधिधारी श्री बच्चन को तगड़ा झटका लगा है। उनके वकील ने फैसले के खिलाफ उच्च न्यायालय में अपील करने की घोषणा की है।
  अपर आयुक्त (प्रशासन) फैजाबाद मंडल विद्या सागर प्रसाद ने दोपहर बारह बजे भरी अदालत में यह फैसला सुनाया। छह पेज के फैसले में श्री प्रसाद ने चकबंदी आकार पत्र-45 की प्रविष्टि को 'जस्टिफाइड' नहीं माना। बाराबंकी के तत्कालीन जिलाधिकारी रमाशंकर साहू के 26 अप्रैल, 06 के आदेश को त्रुटिपूर्ण होने के कारण निरस्त कर दिया तथा उनके पूर्ववर्ती जिलाधिकारी आशीष गोयल द्वारा 24 मार्च, 06 को पारित आदेश विधिक व न्यायोचित मानते हुए यथावत रखा। श्री गोयल ने अमिताभ के नाम दर्ज 'इंट्री' को फर्जी व कूटरचित बताते हुए निरस्तीकरण की कार्रवाई का आदेश दिया था, जबकि श्री साहू ने आदेश को स्थगित कर अमिताभ के पक्ष में साक्ष्य देने का आदेश दिया था। न्यायालय ने यह निगरानी याचिका निरस्त करते हुए भूअभिलेखों में सुधारात्मक संशोधन का आदेश दिया है।
  अपर आयुक्त न्यायालय ने आदेश में यह उल्लेख किया है कि चकबंदी अधिनियम की धारा 52 के उपरांत भू-राजस्व अधिनियम की धारा 33 के तहत कलेक्टर को यह अधिकार है कि वे त्रुटिपूर्ण भू-अभिलेख को ठीक कराने के लिए संशोधन कर सकते हैं। विवाद की जड़ में बाराबंकी जिले के दौलतपुर ग्राम के खाता संख्या 676 के गाटा संख्या 702 के 4.142 हेक्टेयर में दो बीघा 5 बिस्वा 9 धुर भूमि पर अमिताभ पुत्र हरिवंश राय निवासी 17-क्लाइव रोड इलाहाबाद के नाम दर्ज होना है। यह 'इंट्री' आकार पत्र-45 में की गई। इसमें चकबंदी प्रक्रिया के अंत में भू-स्वामी का नाम दर्ज किया जाता है।
  खुलासा होने पर जिलाधिकारी बाराबंकी के आदेश पर उपसंचालक चकबंदी व प्रभारी अधिकारी अभिलेखागार बाराबंकी ने 24 मार्च व 19 अप्रैल सन् 2006 को तथा अपर जिलाधिकारी बाराबंकी ने 24 मार्च सन् 2006 को जांच आख्या जिलाधिकारी बाराबंकी को दी थी। इसमें पाया गया कि चकबंदी अधिकारी बाराबंकी के 10 सितम्बर सन् 1982 के जिस आदेश की 'इंट्री' 11 जनवरी सन् 1983 को दर्शाई गई है, उससे सम्बन्धित कोई पत्रावली अभिलेखागार में मौजूद नहीं है। राजस्व अभिलेखागार के सहायक अभिलेखापाल ने भी ऐसी ही आख्या दी थी।
  निर्णय में साक्ष्यों की जो अन्य विवेचना की गई है, उसके मुताबिक उपसंचालक चकबंदी की आख्या से यह स्पष्ट होता है कि 11 जनवरी सन् 1983 में जिन अन्य सात खातों में जो 'इंट्री' की गई, उसकी स्याही तथा अमिताभ के नाम की गई 'इंट्री' की स्याही व लिखावट में फर्क है, जिससे अमिताभ के नाम की 'इंट्री' की प्रमाणिकता में संदेह पैदा होता है।
  चकबंदी प्रक्रिया के अंतिम अभिलेख आकार पत्र-45 को तीन प्रतियों में तैयार किया जाता है, जो क्रमश: जिला राजस्व अभिलेखागार, तहसील अभिलेखागार व क्षेत्रीय लेखपाल के पास रहता है। गाटा संख्या 702 में तहसील के इस अभिलेख में अमिताभ के नाम कोई 'इंट्री' नहीं पाई गई बल्कि यहां गांव सभा के खाते में नवीन पर्ती दर्ज है। इसी से स्पष्ट है कि अमिताभ के नाम 'एंटीडेटेड 'इंट्री' दर्ज कराई गई है। अमिताभ के नाम की 'इंट्री' में चकबंदी अधिनियम की धारा 42 के तहत स्वत्व सम्बन्धी अधिकार प्रदान किए गए हैं। अदालत ने कहा कि इस धारा के तहत स्वत्व सम्बंधी अधिकार प्रदान नहीं किए जा सकते, बल्कि लिपिकीय त्रुटियां या भूलों को दुरुस्त किया जाता है, स्वत्व सम्बन्धी अधिकार पर व्यवस्था चकबंदी अधिनियम की धारा 9 में की गई है। उपरोक्त विवेचना से अमिताभ के नाम की 'इंट्री' संदिग्ध व कपटपूर्ण है व आकार पत्र -45 के गाटा संख्या 702 पर अमिताभ पुत्र हरिवंश राय के नाम की ं'इंट्री' निराधार व फर्जी है।
  विद्यासागर प्रसाद ने यह व्याख्या भी की कि भूमि पर स्वत्व के चार स्त्रोत या आधार हैं, जो उत्तर प्रदेश जमींदारी विनाश अधिनियम की धारा 171 के तहत, क्रय द्वारा, गिंफ्ट डीड या वसीयत डीड से तथा प्रतिकूल कब्जे के आधार पर है। ग्राम सभा की भूमि पर अमिताभ को स्वामित्व देने के बारे में संतोषजनक आधार या पत्रावली नहीं है।
  न्यायालय ने बाराबंकी के दोनों जिलाधिकारियों के आदेशों को विरोधाभासी भी माना। रमाशंकर साहू द्वारा पारित आदेश को न्यायोचित व विधिक नहीं माना। मुकदमें में निगरानीकर्ता की ओर से मकरंद बहादुर सिंह तथा उत्तर प्रदेश सरकार की ओर से सुरेंद्र राजे ने बहस की। मामले को उभारने वाले बाराबंकी के कांग्रेस नेता अमीर हसन ने भी वकील आफताब अहमद सिद्दीकी से बहस करने की अर्जी दी थी।
  उधर फैसले के बाद अमिताभ बच्चन के अधिवक्ता मकरंद बहादुर सिंह ने उच्च न्यायालय में चुनौती देने की बात कही है।
  उन्होंने बताया कि बाराबंकी के दौलतपुर की विवादित भूमि का 'स्टेटस' व कब्जा अमिताभ का ही है। इसकी 'इंट्री' भी अमिताभ के ही नाम है। जब तक 'इंट्री' निरस्त न हो जाय, तब तक उनका हक बरकरार है। आज के फैसले का कोई असर नहीं होगा। राज्य उत्तर प्रदेश का प्रतिनिधित्व करने वाले शासकीय अधिवक्ता सुरेंद्र राजे ने बताया कि निगरानी याचिका में अपर आयुक्त विद्यासागर प्रसाद द्वारा किए गए निर्णय से अमिताभ का नाम राजस्व अभिलेखों से हटेगा। जहां-जहां उन्होंने इसकी आड़ में लाभ लिया होगा, उसमें कार्रवाई भी होगी। जहां तक प्राथमिकी दर्ज कराने की बात है, यह तत्कालीन जिलाधिकारी आशीष गोयल के 24 मार्च सन् 2004 के आदेश में उल्लिखित है।
  अमीर हैदर ने कहा कि जब आम आदमी ऐसी हरकत करता है, तो उसके खिलाफ जो कार्रवाई की जाती है, उसी तरीके से अमिताभ बच्चन के विरुद्ध भी कार्रवाई की जानी चाहिये।

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->बिग-बी: पैतृक गांव में भी नहीं एक इंच जमीन

प्रतापगढ़। पैतृक गांव बाबू पट्टी में भी जमीन के नाम पर अमिताभ बच्चन के पास कुछ नहीं है। बाराबंकी में एंग्री यंग मैन की किसानी खतरे में पड़ी तो यह आशा जगी कि शायद पैतृक गांव में खेती योग्य कुछ जमीन इस परिवार के नाम हो। लेकिन पड़ताल के बाद जो पता चला वह वालीवुड के शहंशाह के चहेतों के लिए निराशा जनक है। यहां भी जमीन के नाम पर बिग बी के पास एक इंच जगह नहीं है। यहां उनके पिता स्व. हरिवंश राय बच्चन के नाम एक पुस्तकालय माद्द है।
  मालूम हो की 17 नवम्बर 1907 को जिले के पट्टी तहसील अंतर्गत बाबूपट्टी गांव में जन्मे हरिवंश राय बच्चन के पिता बाबू प्रताप नारायण इलाहाबाद में किसी जमींदार के यहां मैनेजर थे। हरिवंश राय अपने जीवन काल में यहां आते-जाते रहे। 1920 के बंदोबस्त में उनके पिता व 1971 की चकबंदी के अभिलेख में केवल हरिवंश राय की आबादी दर्शायी गई है। 1950 में जब हरिवंश राय बच्चन इंग्लैण्ड से डी लिट की उपाधि लेकर लौटे तो उनके गांव के निकट सहयोगी बाबू शारदा श्रीवास्तव उनसे मिलने इलाहाबाद गये। इस दौरान हरिवंश राय बच्चन ने अपने घर का हाल पूछा तो शारदा बाबू ने बताया कि घर भी खण्डहर हो गया है। इस पर उन्होंने घर को समतल कराने का आग्रह किया। इसी पर गत दिनों सपा के पूर्व सांसद सीएन सिंह के प्रयास से सपा शासन के सहयोग से हरिवंश राय बच्चन के नाम से पुस्तकालय बनवा दिया गया। इसका लोकार्पण करने पहली बार हरिवंश राय बच्चन की पुद्द बधू व अमिताभ बच्चन की पत्नी जया बच्चन सपा के राष्ट्रीय महासचिव अमर सिंह के साथ यहां आयीं। वहीं इसके विपरीत महा नायक अमिताभ बच्चन व उनकी मां तेजी बच्चन यहां कभी नहीं आये है।

Amitabh Bachchan lost a court case about some land in the ancestral village in UP. Now he has no land either in Barabanki nor in Pratapgadh. Court ruled that the entry made in 1983 (before he became MP) in the village records was fraudulant, therefore rejected.

A side question. In UP Villages, the land area measurement units are Bigha, Biswa and Dhur. The official who keeps the records is called LekhpAla. Is this measurement and official title the same in south, east, west and central India? How old are these systems? Modern land records of UP (at least of my district) continue from Akbar's time. Even the year on the records still read from the year Akbar had first got that done.
India and south east Asia during ice age


Atlantis in Indonesia-Sundaland
82,000 year old jewellery found

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Archaeologists from Oxford have discovered what are thought to be the oldest examples of human decorations in the world.

The international team of archaeologists, led by Oxford University's Institute of Archaeology, have found shell beads believed to be 82,000 years old from a limestone cave in Morocco.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Comments on that article:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Posted by: John, -- on 6:05am today
One of the central problems with the proposition that fully modern humans evolved in Africa is that dramatically advanced modern behavior, including life-like realistic sculpture, appears suddenly on the west coast of Europe 40,000 years ago. No path leading to Europe. Nothing more advanced earlier in Africa. This was left conveniently unmentioned during the 1990s as Out-of-Africanists went on a desperate hunt for something earlier. They now have a rock with zigzag lines, and shells with holes, which they claim are 80,000 years old, and tell us this proves everything right. But if going from no zigzag lines to zigzag lines in Africa is a genetically-based evolutionary revolution -- what is going from zigzag lines to lifelike sculpture and the cave paintings of Lascaux in Western Europe and nowhere else on the planet? And by the way, what are "modern humans" doing making necklaces in Syro-Palestine 80,000 years ago if no modern humans left Africa until 60,000 years ago, or 50,000 years ago, as continuously repeated in the popular press?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->by: Trevor Watkins, North Queensferry, Fife on 10:23am today
Response to John, rather than the news story itself. The earliest appearance of Homo sapiens outside Africa is earlier than 100,000 years ago, and the evidence is human burials at two sites in northern Israel. That early appearance apparently leads nowhere. So it is not just the relatively late appearance of modern humans in western Europe that is problematical; the relatively early appearance of modern humans in Australia, and the very early appearance of H. sapiens in the Levant also point to the fact that we still have big black holes in our knowledge. Discoveries like that reported from eastern Morocco help to nibble away at that great black hole.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Help needed in defending India in Indian Defence Forum which is being overrun by Pakis and chinese posters. They have started a campaign of posting articles spreading hate against india and indians.

Even the moderator "Al Diablo" there is behaving like a anti-indian.

Sorry if i disrupted the discussion here but please put some sense into the moderators. One of the IDF admin also posts on Bharat-Rakshak by the name "SriSri". Please ask him to delete anti-indian thread in IDF.

'Indians are slippery, treacherous people'
1 Jul, 2007 l 1442 hrs ISTlPTI
NEW DELHI: The recently declassified US official records throw new light on the anger and frustration that seized President Richard Nixon during the 1971 Indo-Pak war and how Washington secretly pleaded with China to "menace" India by moving troops to the Indian border.

Poring over thousands of pages of national security files and telephone transcripts of the then US National Security Adviser Henry Kissinger and 2,800 hours of Nixon tapes, well-known American author and historian Robert Dallek recalls the events in the White House during the December of 1971 in a just-published book Nixon and Kissinger-Partners in Power .

Nixon's infamous tilt towards Pakistan is well known but the author reveals many other facets of how Nixon and Kissinger were upset with India and how they tried to rope in China in a bid to prevent the formation of Bangladesh.

Nixon describes Indians as "a slippery, treacherous people" and his National Security Adviser calls the Indians "insufferably arrogant". The story began in the fall of 1971, when differences in the administration and the country over White House China policy posed little threat to a major transformation in Sino-American relations.

A larger danger to rapprochement with Beijing and detente with Moscow came from rising tensions in South Asia. Long standing tensions between the Punjabis, who dominated the central government in West Pakistan, and the Bengalis in the East now erupted into a full-scale crisis.

The President and Kissinger had less interest in what the Indians or Pakistanis did to each other than in assuring that nothing sidetracked Kissinger's trip to China and the revolution in Sino-American relations.

Our objective should be to "buoy up Yahya for at least another month while Pakistan served as the gateway to China," Kissinger told Nixon at the beginning of June. “Even apart from the Chinese thing," the President replied, "I wouldn't ....help the Indians, the Indians are no good."

In July, on his way to Beijing, Kissinger discussed the crisis with Pakistani and Indian officials in Islamabad and New Delhi. Before he left, Joe Sisco (a diplomat) urged him to take a tough line with Indira Gandhi. Sisco complained that "you people in the White House don't understand how serious" the situation is. "We know," Kissinger countered.

"At the end of the monsoons, India will attack". Sisco advised him to tell the Indians "we know you are supporting the guerillas." Kissinger responded, "That is not my specialty." Kissinger's meetings with the Pakistanis were cordial, but, predictably, the Indians complained that US support of Pakistan was encouraging a "policy of adventurism," which China was also promoting.

Indira Gandhi saw little chance of a political settlement: She did not want to use force and was open to suggestions," she told Kissinger, who warned India that a war would be disaster for both the countries and the sub-continent would become an area for conflict among outside powers. He also assured them that "we would take the gravest view of any unprovoked Chinese aggression against India."

Kissinger recalls returning from his trip with "a premonition of disaster". He expected India to attack Pakistan after the summer monsoons. He feared that China might then intervene on Pakistan's behalf, which would move Moscow "to teach Peking a lesson". At this time, Kissinger states, "no one could speak for five minutes without Nixon hearing of his profound distrust of Indian motives, his concern over Soviet meddling, and above all his desire not to risk the opening to China by ill considered posturing."

Nixon described the Indians in an NSC meeting on July 16 as "'a slippery, treacherous people." He felt that they would like nothing better than to use this tragedy to destroy Pakistan....He said that we could not allow - over the next three to four months until 'we take this journey' to Beijing - a war in South Asia if we can possibly avoid it."

Kissinger agreed. He called the Indians "insufferably arrogant", and eager for a conflict that would allow them to overwhelm Pakistan and take on China. "Everything we have done with China will (then) go down the drain." The book refers to the late Indira Gandhi's travels to several Western capitals, including Washington, at the beginning of November.

Nixon agreed to see her as a last-ditch effort to head off a conflict. Two conversations on November 4 and 5 were case studies in heads of state speaking past each other. During a morning meeting on November in the Oval office, they agreed to discuss tensions in South Asia, with a second day's meeting to focus on Sino-American relations. No easing of tensions was evident from the morning's exercises. As the situation escalated, Kissinger was angry at being told that the US policy was "weak". Beijing had done nothing.

"We are the ones who have been operating our public opinion, against our bureaucracy, at the very edge of legality," Kissinger said. Nixon and Kissinger discussed the potential results of Chinese action. If China menaced India, they anticipated a Soviet military response. If the US then did nothing, Kissinger predicted, "we will be finished." Nixon asked: "So what do we do if the Soviets move against them? Start lobbing nuclear weapons in, is that what you mean?" Kissinger replied. "If the Soviets move against them...and succeed, that will be the final showdown....We will be finished. We'll be thorough."

But a message from the Soviets assured Washington that India had no intention of attacking West Pakistan and that ceasefire discussions were underway. To their surprise and relief, the US got a Chinese message that said nothing about moving troops to the Indian border.

Instead, appreciating that independence for East Pakistan was a foregone conclusion, Peking said it was prepared to endorse an American UN proposal for a standstill cease-fire and forego a demand for mutual troop withdrawals. The crisis now petered to a conclusion. Between December 14 and 17, Indian forces completed their conquest of East Pakistan and agreed to a ceasefire in the West with no occupation of additional Pakistani territory.

Although Nixon and Kissinger put the best possible face on the outcome, the result of the war was essentially a victory for India and its Soviet ally, which declared the emergence of Bangladesh from the ruins of East Pakistan a triumph for Socialist and democratic principles, the book recalls.
Last couple hours folks... vote now:

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