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Riots In India
#61
The 1984 riots were clearly inspired, instigated and encouraged by Congress Party workers. The Congress is shameless in this matter. They have the gall to dub the Godhra riot as a pogrom when clearly more sikhs were killed omn 1984. The guilty have yet to be brought to justice and justice delayed is justice denied. In the end it is a sad commentary on the state of civic citizenship in india that so many commit lawless acts at the behest of a few and for paltry monetary gain. India today remains a wounded civilization, and the land which Tagore dreams about is not yet a reality.

Mind Without Fear
Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high;
Where knowledge is free;

Where the world has not been broken up
into fragments by narrow domestic walls;
Where words come out from the depth of truth;

Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection;
Where the clear stream of reason
has not lost its way into the dreary desert sand of dead habit;

Where the mind is led forward by thee into ever-widening thought and action---
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.
#62
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->WHO ARE THE GUILTY?

List Of People Identified By Survivors 
Annexure IV: H.K.L. Bhagat, Babu Ram Sharma, Sajjan Kumar, Lalit Makan, Dharam Das Shastri, Jagdish Tytler, Mahendra, Mangat Ram Singal, Dr. Ashok Kumar, Sukhan Lal Sood, Jagdish Chander Tokas -- all Congress politicians to police big wigs and others

I. POLITICIANS

The following is the list of those alleged to have instigated violence and/or protected alleged criminals.

1. Mr. H.K.L. Bhagat, Minister of state (Information and Broadcasting). On November 5, reported to have intervened to get miscreants released who were held in Shahdara Thana.

2. Babu Ram Sharma, Member, Municipal Corporation (Ward No. 58) reported to be the right-hand man of H. K. L. Bhagat. Reportedly responsible for loot, arson and murder in trance-Yamuna areas-Babarpur, Chajupur Colony, Maujpur, Gonda. Allegedly led people on motor cycle with megaphone.

3. Sajjan Kumar, Cong. (I) M.P. from Mangolpuri. Reported to have paid Rs. 100 and a bottle of liquor to each person involved in the killing.

4. Lalit Makan, Cong. (I) Trade Union Leader and Metropolitan Councillor. Reportedly paid to mob Rs. 100 each plus a bottle of liquor. A white ambassador car reportedly belonging to him came 4 times to the G.T. Road area near Azadpur. Instructions to mobs indulging in arson were given from inside the car.

5. Dharam Das Shastri, Cong. (I) M. P. from Karol Bagh. Reported to becarrying voters list with him at Prakash Nagar for identification of Sikhs. On November 5, according to newspaper reports, he along with other Congress-I leaders tried to pressurize the SHO of Karol Bagh Police Station to release the persons who arrested during the police raids to recover looted property.

6. Jagdish Tytler, Cong.(I) M. P. from Sadar Constitutency. On 6th November 5 p.m. he barged into a press conference that the Police Commissioner S. C. Tandon was holding. A journalist reports that he told the Police Commissioner that "by holding my men you are hampering the relief work".

7. Mahendra, Metropolitan Councillor. Reported to have accompanied Dharam Das Shastri with voters lists at Prakash Nagar.

8. Mangat Ram Singal, Member of Municipal Corporation (Ward No. 32) was reportedly with Dharam Das Shastri and Mahendra at Prakash Nagar.

9. Dr. Ashok Kumar, Member of Municipal Corporation, Kalyanpuri. Reportedly held a meeting in Kalyanpuri, following which violence broke out immediately. According to many eye witnesses he led mobs which indulged in loot, murder, arson and rape.

10. Sukhan Lal Sood, Metropolitan Councillor. According to eye witnesses was seen leading mobs, which indulged in loot, murder, arson and rape. He had come with petrol and serial lists and addressess of Sikhs in the locality. The women refugees, recognized him and drove him out.

11. Jagdish Chander Tokas, Member of Municipal Corporation Munirka (Ward No. 14) reportedly led a mob to R.K. Puram Sector IV and V.

12. Ishwar Singh, Member, Municipal Corporation, Mangolpuri (Ward No. 37). Allegedly led the mobs that indulged in looting, burning, rape and murder in Mangolpuri area.

13. Balwant Khokhar, Youth Congress-I Leader, Delhi, Identified as one of the persons responsible for instigating looting and arson in Palam Colony area.

14. Faiz Mohammad, Youth Congress-I Leader, Delhi, named by refugees in Shakurpur camp and in Mangolpuri for being a part of the mob indulging in looting, arson and murder.

15. Ratan, Youth Congress-I Leader, Delhi, named as having taken part in violence and looting in Palam Colony area.

16. Satbir Singh, Youth Congress-I. He allegedly brought bus loads of people from Ber Sarai to Sri Guru Harkrishan Public School (Munirka). They burnt school buses and parts of the school building. He was reportedly involved in looting and beating of Sikhs which carried on throughout the night on November 1.

II. POLICE

The following is the list of police officials allegedly responsible for negligence of duty and more abetment of /participation in violence :

1.Malhotra, ACP, East Districts at Shakarpur (under Shakarpur P. S.) Reported to have invited mobs. Heard to say "You should have blown up the Gurudwaras in addition to killing Bhatia (Congress-I worker, Trilochan Singh Bhatia ) of M. Block, Shakarpur. Mob was accompanied by Malhotra, who moved with one jeep, station-wagon, two men with sten-guns and revolvers, petrol-cans and stones. He supplied weapons to the mob, according to eve-witness accounts. Reportedly incited mobs at Laxmi Nagar, Gurunangal Nagar (under Shahdara P. S. )

2. Jai Singh, S.H.O., Allegedly told mobs in troubled area that they could do what they wanted for three days.

3. Rao Ram Mehar, S.H.O. at Shakarpur reportedly pointed out Shik shops and houses to the mob.

4. Hari Ram Bhatti, S.H.O. Sultanpuri P. S. reported to have helped the mob by disarming the Sikhs. On November 1 and 2 it is alleged that he himself killed them. On 3 and 4 reported to have had the Sikhs shaven at gun point.

5. Ravtas Singh, S.H.O. Sadar Thana. Reportedly broke into houses and indulged in arson.

6. Survir Singh, S.H.O. Kalyanpuri, P. S. He reported reached Trilokpuri (under Kalyanpuri P. S.) at 2.30 p.m. On November 1, when plunder and killing were going on. He immediately removed head constable and another constable from the spot, thereby giving the mob full licence to indulge in arson, rape and killing.

7. R. D. Singh, S.I. Information from refugees at Durgapuri Gurudwara, Loni Road that he abetted mobs and personally beat up and killed people.

8. S.H.O. and Constables. R. K. Puram Sector IV P. S. According to eye witness account when appealed to by two residents of Ber Sarai to project a Sikh family being attacked by a mob in Sector IV they categorically refused. Furhter, they are reported to have declared that Sikhs should be killed.

The following are the names of other police officials reported to have abetted / participated in violence in the mentioned areas :

9. Tyagi, S.H.O. in Trilokpuri.

10. Rana, Inspector-in-Trilokpuri.

11. Moolchand, S. I. In Shakarpur.

12. Bakshi, A.S.I. in Trilokpuri.

13. Rajvir Singh, Head Constable, Kalyanpuri, P. S. in Trilokpuri.


III OTHERS INVOLVED

The following is the list of persons allegedly involved in looting, arson and other criminal activities:

TRILOKPURI:

BLOCK -5
1. Papita, one of the ring leaders allegdly involved in murder.

BLOCK-12 :
2. Brahmani (Misrani) Shastri.

BLOCK-14 :
3. Baleshwar Bhargi alias Bhalu.
4. Bal Kishan

BLOCK-21 :
5. Bihari Dhobi.

BLOCK-25
6. B. D. Sharma.

BLOCK-27 :
7. Israi Ali (alias Chunnu).
8. Salim, Well known goonda, allegedly involved in murder.
9. Massa, opium dealer.

BLOCK-28 :
10. Dr. Yahya Siddiqi, Clinic at Main Road, Block -27, reportedly led the mob.\
11. Manu Singh, shop-keeper.
12. Soni, Railway Worker.
13. Mukesh, reportedly involved in loot and murder.

BLOCK-29 :
14. Mukri Master, Tailor, allegedly involved in murder.

BLOCK-30 :
15. Om Prakash (Omi), Mason, allegedly involved in murder.
16. Ved Prakash (Brother if Om Prakash), Handpump Mistri, allegedly involved in murder and rape.
17. Nur Jahan, reported to have incited Muslims by spreading the rumours that mosques have been burnt by Sikhs.
18. Keramat, Dealer in Cement.
19. Shabnam, TV shop owner.
20. Damesh
21. Punju

. 22. Salim allegedly involved in murder.
23.Abbas Son-in-law (see Abbas in Block 32).
24. Mukri, Video shop owner.
25. Hasin.

BLOCK-31 :
26. Kamaruddin, Atta-Chakki shop owner, and Furniture dealer.
27. Niyamat Ali.
28. Ninav, Tea shop owner.
29. Dr. V. P. Singh.
30. Duli Chand, Local Leader.

BLOCK-32:
31. Rampal Saroj, Pradhan and Congress -I worker. Allegedly responsible for killing of Gopal Singh, Ranjha Singh, Mekal Singh. Other charges against him are instigation, rape and burning.
32. Kishori lal and his four brothers, Shrawan, Sbrlya, Chhote, Kamal, own a Meat shop. Allegedly responsible for killing of HuRum Singh, Tirath, Sajjan Singh, Soma Singh, Tara Singh.
33. Jagga Sansi and wife Draupadi, allegedly responsible for burning, murder and rape.
34. Khadak Singh Pradhan.
35. Gaffar Khan, Businessman dealing in Cement.
36. Babu Khan, owns a dairy.
37. Manu Sansi
38. Aasim.
39. Somnath, allegedly responsible for killing of several persons including Hoshiar Singh S/o Milap Singh and 3 young men whom he locked in the house and killed later with other people.
40. Ajit.
41. Kadir.
42. Monga.
43. Sati.
44. Tello Sansi (Draupadi's sister)
45. Ruplal, allegedly responsible for killing of Labh Singh, r/o 32/121.
46. Omi Chamar, Shoemaker.
47. Morari, owns grocery shop in Block-31.
48. Pahelwan (Brother of Rashid).
49. Bachchan.
50. Aziz.
51. Ansar.
52. Kallo Khan, Dhaba owner.
53. Abbas, owns cloth and chappal shop in Block-27.
54. Dr. Lambo.
55. Bhallo, Sells liquors.
56. Kayamat Ali.
57. Raju (Bhangi), Sweeper.
58. Jaggi.
59. Bhaya.
60. Murli Khan.
61. Sher Khan.
62. Raja Ram, Rickshaw Driver.
63. Bethis Ramesh.
64. Bedhu Ram, allegedly responsible for killing in 32/99 and 32/97.

BLOCK -33:
65. Pappu, allegedly responsible for murder.
66. Bhum, local goonda.
67. Gyano, student.
68. Mohammad, Cycle shop owner.
69. Birju.
70. Zakir.
71. Kamal Singh, Rickshaw owner.
72. Munshi.
73. Rashid, Cycle Rickshaw repair shop in Block-32, allegedly involved in murder.

BLOCK- 34:
74. Mahendru.
75. Ratan (brother of Mahendru).
76. Behem Sharma.
77. Mahendra Pal.
78. Sher Singh, Shop keeper.

BLOCK- 35:
79. Jeevan.

BLOCK- 36:
80. B. B. Pandoy.

OTHER BLOCKS:

81. D. R. Lakhani, Youth Congress-I.
82. Abdulla.
83. Two sons of Sitaram, Milkman.
84. A.Mulla, lives near Mosque in Trilokpuri, teaches children in Mosque. Allegedly incited Muslims to go to burn two Gurudwaras of the locality.
85. Lakhan.
86. Rohtas, Land owner and Goala.
87. Rishi, Land owner and Goala.
88. Kripal, Land owner and Goala.
89. Brahrn (Tea shop owner in Trilokpuri).
90. Chabban & Munim, Cloth and Tailoring Shop near Mosque. Allegedly responsible for the death of Duleep Singh.
91. Babu Sharma.

SULTANPURI:

BLOCK- A- 4:
92. A. Bagri, Pradhan.
93. Brahmanand Gupta, Pradhan.
94. Nathu Pradhan, Sweeper.
95. Udal Jat.
96. Owner of Hanuman Ration shop.
97. Gayanand, Shop owner.
98. Ganpat, Shop owner.
99. Piria (Gujrati).
100. Gurbat Brothers.
101. Islam.
102. Rao.
103. Changa, Doctor.
104. Omi, auto-rickshaw driver.
105. Garib Das.
106. Vermanand, Kerosene seller.

BLOCK A-5:
107. Hasla Ram.
108. Mangla.
109. Satbir.
110. Salam.

BLOCK B-1:
111. Pal Brahman.
112. Samthu.

113. Khismvia.
114. Kumar.

BLOCK- 3:
115. Gopal & Brothers
116. Babbar & Father
117. Tiwari
118. Raghubir,Sweeper
119.Pratap,Sweeper
120. Wajiz


BLOCK- C- 4:
121. Barjilal & Sons.
122. Kalaram and 2 sons
123. Prem Singh alias Prem Muchiwal, Property dealer
124.Jai Kishan, Sweeper
125.Danny
126. Pappu
127. Raju
128. Ravikaran, Tailor
129. Kannaram.
130. Mohan Lal s/o Thekeda Komal


BLOCK P-3:
131. Tara Chand, Carpenter.
132. Master, Kerosene seller
133. Radhe Shyam, Mechanie
134. Babu Lal, Vegetable seller
135. The brother of Sikandar
136. Gulab Singh, owner of Godown

MONGOLPURl:

137. Hardwari Lal, Mandal President
138. Narendar Singh, Congress-I Worker
139. Salim Qureshi, Congress-I worker, belongs to Waqf Club
140. Shawkeen, Congress- I Worker, belong to Waqf Club
141. Malaram, Congress- I worker
142. Rajendar of New Star Club
143. Shiv Charan


MAUJPUR: GONDA:


144. Bhisno Joginder, Kerosene seller
145. Trilok, Flour Mill owner
146. Gupta, Paper seller
147. Delu Ram, Tailor's Apprentice
148. Ram Kishan, Tailor's Apprentice
149. Bhola, MilLman I
150. Balbir, Milkman s son
151. Prem, Barber
152. Gyan Malwai
153. Narain's son
154. Brahm

SHAKARPUR:

155. Bhatia, Congress - I Worker
156. Dogra, Congress-I worker
157. Mr. Singh, Congress-I worker
158. Lakshmi Dhoban, Mahila Samiti, allegedly instigated mobs to burns Sikhs alive.
159. Mr. Ashwini, BJP worker
160. Satpal, owner of 3-star hotel on main Shakarpur highway.
161. Ashok Kumar, owns a flour mill in Shakarpur.
162. Ram Niwas Sharma
163. Rohtas Singh, Shakarpur Village.


KHAJURI KHAS:

164. Kadam Singh, Panchayat Sarpanch
165. Nephews of Kadam Singh
166. Nambat Singh, owns Ration shop in the area.
167. Shyam Lal, Retired ASI.
168. Jai Singh, Kerosene seller
169. Jugnu.
170. Parsa

JANAKPURI:

171. Pratap, Pradhan of Sagarpur, allegedly responsible for killing 22 members of the family of Budh Singh of Sagarpur near Janakpuri.


BLOCK C:
172. Dablu, Sweeper
173. Kalia, Sweeper
174. Upli, Sweeper
175. Son Sasi
176. Mohan Sasi
177. Bhana Sasi
178. Raju, Sweeper
179. Malaram, allegedly distributed free kerosene

MANDAVALI: UNCHPUR

180. Sachdeva, property dealer
181. Raj Kalia, Cement dealer
182. Gupta, alias Chakki, owns Grocery store
183. Ram Prakash, works in Khadi Bhawan
184. Dr. Babbar
185. Dharam Pal
186. Kishan Dutt
187. Babu Ram
188.Lal Bahadur Mishra
189. Joshi


RAJNAGAR:

190. Balwan Khokkar
191. Mohinder Singh Bargdola
192. Pandit Tara Chand
193. Ishwar Chand Verma
194. Pandit Ram Niwas

SADAR BAZAAR:

195. Kamal, Dhobi
196. David, Dhobi's son
197. Vinayak Family

AZADPUR INDUSTRIAL AREA:

198. T. S. Bedi, Factory owner. On Nov. 1 he is reported to have organized mobs from early morning which became active later. While his own factory was left untouched, the neighbouring Crown Motors factory belonging to Sardar Pyare Singh was gutted the same day.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodna...pucl&sid=17&pn=<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#63
Bharatvarsha asked whether they were Hindus against Sikh riots.
My thoughts are as follows. This is without prejudice to what Mudy wrote earlier in response to my posts. This is also without any bitterness whatsoever. So please don't try to explain, rationalize or otherwise respond in a confrontational manner.
Much time has passed since then and emotions of today are far different. I don't want to open old wounds
1. They weren't riots as we understand the term "riot." I would call it a massacre.
2. Most Hindus believed that Sikhs needed to be taught a lesson. This was the prevalent feeling of the time.
3. Even though they believed (2), they would add that it was perhaps overdone.
4. Hindus usually said "Had we given you (the Sikhs) 3 days you would have caused more mayhem. (P.S. I don't see that as a compliment).

Mudy wrote:
"neighbors were not involved in killing each other"

This is most probably false in trans-Yamuna areas where most of the killings took place. Whether or not they killed, they (the neighbours) did loot and burn. I know that for a fact.

Mudy further wrote:
"Infact they went all the way to protect Sikhs. Hindus were patrolling streets with lathies 24 x 7. "
The first statement is partially true. There are two parts to that statement.
1. Many good Hindus did protect Sikhs out of the goodness of their hearts. They even lied to the marauding mobs.
2. Many protected them because their property shared a common wall or something and a fire would have damaged all houses/businesses in the neighbourhood.

As to the statement about Hindus patrolling streets with lathies 24 x 7. The only reason I have heard they did so was not because they were protecting Sikhs but they feared retaliatory attacks by Sikhs. Again, that's the version of the truth I've heard and yours may be different but it doesn't make me wrong.

Hence my belief is that
(a) at that time, it was Hindus against Sikhs, not just Congress against them.
(b) at this time, a majority appears to be ashamed of what happened.
#64
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->neighbors were not involved in killing each other"
This is mostly probably false in trans-Yamuna areas where most of the killings took place<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again its migrant area or low income area.
If neighbors were involved in killing each other in Delhi, number whould have been much much higher. Free hand (no police or Army presence anywhere) and material was available, only those roaming trucks and jeeps were on street and can't find people to kill other.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Many good Hindus did protect Sikhs out of the goodness of their hearts. They even lied to the marauding mobs.
2. Many protected them because their property shared a common wall or something and a fire would have damaged all houses/businesses in the neighbourhood.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I recall, people were scared and Delhi is dominated by family of 1947 partiton victims, it reminded them those episode. I can say very well about West Delhi. People were more worried about life and security of family then anything else. From roof top one can see only smoke everywhere for three days.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The only reason I have heard they did so was not because they were protecting Sikhs but they feared retaliatory attacks by Sikhs.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, Absolutely not. Whole Delhi was under siege by Congressi. Its not hearsay, but we were seeing it why they are doing. Retaliatory attacks by Sikhs were out of question, I can say because situation was very very grim. Impossible.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->JANAKPURI:

171. Pratap, Pradhan of Sagarpur, allegedly responsible for killing 22 members of the family of Budh Singh of <b>Sagarpur</b> near Janakpuri.
BLOCK C:
172. Dablu, Sweeper
173. Kalia, Sweeper
174. Upli, Sweeper
175. Son Sasi
176. Mohan Sasi
177. Bhana Sasi
178. Raju, Sweeper
179. Malaram, allegedly distributed free kerosene<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This area is next to Delhi Cantonment (or I better call it cantonment village), walking distance. Lot of ex-soliders, Jat, Bihari migrant live there. There someone came out with gun and rest was history.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->WHO ARE THE GUILTY? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you check this list, you will know who were involved, Sweeper, tailor, waqf board, Halal, cycle Shop owner etc. Middle and upper class were not involved.

This list is not complete, no mention of Nariana, Patel Nagar, CP, Timarpur, Raja Garden, Tilak Nagar, Jail Road, Hari Nagar.
#65
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(a) at that time, it was Hindus against Sikhs, not just Congress against them.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jaspreet, in case you are not an Indian or been out of touch with India, let me point something out to you:
Hinduism is a religion.
Congress is political party.
Having pointed to the obivious, I'll say most Hindus at that time didn't care a rats behind for Congress and in fact I know many who heaved a sigh of relief saying it's the time the chickens coming back to the roost and hopeful new PM will start afresh with clean slate. And this was not even within 800 miles radius of Delhi. If you check the reaction of Hindus around the nation you'll get an idea as to how the Hindus reacted - both to the assasination and the following riots. As for the killers/instigators from Congress, were they Hindus? No dispute in that. List is provided in Bharatvarsh on this very page and lot of names of those congressi people appears Hindu. And in fact the Hindus in India and this forum are screaming for the blood of these very murdering goons - religious affiliations aside.

Perhaps you could point me to quotes from a single Hindu (<b>non-Congress affiliated</b>) who said "Sikhs needed to be taught a lesson" or "add that it was perhaps overdone" or "Had we given you (the Sikhs) 3 days you ..."

I'm sure you've seen various leaders of Akali Dal who have headed minority commissions have in fact praised the efforts of Hindus in standing with their Sikh brothers during those tough times. The then President Giani Zail Singh (a sikh) is supposedly have told Kushwant Singh (link in this thread provided) to take refuge in house of a Hindu.

As for the claim of "The only reason I have heard they did so was not because they were protecting Sikhs but they feared retaliatory attacks by Sikhs".. tell me if there were riots in your neighbourhood would you care if the mob heading towards your house was a hindu/muslim/sikh? And whether you were holding lathis to protect your own property or property/life of another person being chased by mob or just as a precaution against retaliation - the answer to that would depend upon you. It's bogus to claim that you know the answer without knowing the individual or his/her character.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(b) at this time, a majority appears to be ashamed of what happened.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As for the shameful part Jaspreet, I can't help wonder if any Indian whether Hindu or non-Hindu is not ashamed of what happened in Delhi '84 and the subsequent botch by 9 different commissions. As an Indian, aren't you?
#66
FWIW:

I was at an educational institute in Kanpur during the 1984 riots. From the morning itself there were rumors going around. We bicycled to the gate to see what was going on. Few people there said that some truck-drivers had been attacked. When we were biking back to the hostels, I saw the most disturbing sight.

A mob of ousiders, looked like not very well to do people, had gathered in a mob outside a sikh professor's house. The whole family was outside in front of the house, in a state of panic mixed with bravery. The professor had his sword out and he was standing there facing the mob. The house windows appeared broken. The mob had these lowlifes with sticks etc and they were making threatening noises but were not moving forward, except some occasional wavy motion.

We were a handful of students there. One of those lowlifes suggetsed that only if students 'supported' them....

We rushed back to the hostels and soon a large number of students gathered behind the mob and told the mob to get out of the campus. Seeing the students gathering in numbers, the rioters left. A number of them could be recognized and were later reported to the police.

For several days students patrolled the campus and made sure nothing bad happened. From the halls we could see flames burning farther away in Kanpur city. Several sikhs from the city temporarily moved into the campus.

Seeing the mob up close and the bravery and desperation of a respected sikh family of the professor(with pre-teen children) standing outside their home defending against that mob, was a very strong personal experience and has made me very suspicious of 'mobs' that sometime go with the euphemisms of mass-movements or mass-reactions.

It may be possible to come up with cause-effect analysis of riots, but riots are never justifiable. A mob , after it forms, has its own personality, it is viscious, vengeful and unpredictable. Some people get trapped in a momentary mob-frenzy and do something that they would regret rest of their life. Others are just willing fodder for the evil that a mob usually represents.
#67
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->but riots are never justifiable<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So even retaliation during partition is not justifiable, this is exactly what Gandhi wanted Hindus to do, offer themselves up to be butchered like goats are butchered on bakrid by Muslims. If we followed this today East Punjab would be full of Muslims (the same Muslims who were hoping that whole Punjab was going to go into Pakistan) and the same Muslims who would have butchered Hindus and Sikhs if they had enough numerical strength or if East Punjab went to Pakistan. In that case what advice would you have given the Hindus and Sikhs of East Punjab.
#68
Jagdish Tytler is a xtian

Many congress muslims were also involved in anti-sikh riots

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subj: Congress Muslim Goondas involved in Anti-Sikh riots of 1984

It is well known that the 1984 riots were called as the two on one riots, i.e.
Hindus (read Congress goons) and Muslims against Sikhs. The latter part is not
mentioned.

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 GSUBRAMANIAM wrote :
>www.outlookindia.com/full...sid=17&pn=
2
>
>BLOCK-27 :
>7. Israi Ali (alias Chunnu).
>8. Salim, Well known goonda, allegedly involved in murder.
>9. Massa, opium dealer.
>
>BLOCK-28 :
>10. Dr. Yahya Siddiqi, Clinic at Main Road, Block -27, reportedly led the mob.\
>
>BLOCK-29 :
>14. Mukri Master, Tailor, allegedly involved in murder.
>
>BLOCK-30 :
>17. Nur Jahan, reported to have incited Muslims by spreading the rumours that
mosques have been burnt by Sikhs.
>18. Keramat, Dealer in Cement.
>19. Shabnam, TV shop owner.
>
>
>and many more
#69
I find Viren's post obnoxious and am not going to reply to it.

Hi Mudy,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Retaliatory attacks by Sikhs were out of question<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I totally agree with you. However, when I said some people were patrolling because of whatever reasons, I am only conveying what Hindus told me then. These people included my friends' parents, my friends, my classmates and other Hindus I knew (including an NCERT professional who happened to be a relative). In other words, I am only a messenger.

Ashok,
Thank you.
---
I am flying to India tomorrow and won't be able to see or reply to this thread. If anyone is still interested in debating with me, we will continue a few days hence.
#70
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->And I totally agree with you. However, when I said some people were patrolling because of whatever reasons, I am only conveying what Hindus told me then<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Human reaction, everyone react differently, because when Sikhs terrorist used to pull out Hindus out of Bus or trains, not once Sikh fought or questioned terrorist. When question of life and death, people back off and protect themselves first. Some call them coward or self centered or just plane scared.
Those who are alive appreciated what other did for them; those who were not there can say whatever they want to say.
#71
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> not once Sikh fought<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true. There is one incident I recall in which a Nihang did save a boy in a bus killing. There may have been others of which I don't know.
#72
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Not true. There is one incident I recall in which a Nihang did save a boy in a bus killing. There may have been others of which I don't know. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope when you will be back from India, Please do bring information on that isolated incidence, i really want to learn.
When these entire episodes were going on against innocent Hindu civilians and not once Sikh came forward to protect Hindus, whole myth about martial group evaporated.
Have safe journey.
#73
<!--QuoteBegin-Jaspreet+Aug 19 2005, 09:19 PM-->QUOTE(Jaspreet @ Aug 19 2005, 09:19 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> I find Viren's post obnoxious and am not going to reply to it.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What part did you find obnoxious?

That I asked you for direct quotes that you have attributed to the entire Hindu community?
Or the fact that you should equally ashamed as any other Indian regarding the atrocities commited and justice denied?
Or the fact that you are judging the integrity of people who risked their own life to protect Sikhs?

I'm confused?

BTW, have a great trip, I'll be around, we can pick up when you get back.
#74
Thanks for the wishes Mudy.
But I see that try as I might I cannot rid you of the negativism. Your choice of words again and again proves that.
I don't think it was an isolated incident, and if I try I can find more such. But I won't try. It's hopeless.
#75
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What part did you find obnoxious<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Questioning my Indian-ness when I disagreed with you.
2. Your tone in that post throughout. You seem to dismiss my opinions as if yours are more important.
All I see is a symmetrical situation.
I say X.
You say not true.
That's all it boils down to.
Fine. I see there's a disagreement. Doesn't mean your opinion is right or that you are righteous or that you should question my Indian-ness.
#76
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Questioning my Indian-ness when I disagreed with you.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, any Indian worth his salt would have agreed that it's was a shameful episode in <b>our</b> history and not relished with claims like <i>"a majority appears to be ashamed of what happened"</i> - when clearly facts are contrary to the bogus claims you've listed.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Your tone in that post throughout. You seem to dismiss my opinions as if yours are more important.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your opinions could be more important, I don't deny that - for starters you could point me to quotes from a single Hindu (<b>non-Congress affiliated</b>) who said <i>"Sikhs needed to be taught a lesson"</i> or <i>"add that it was perhaps overdone"</i> or <i>"Had we given you (the Sikhs) 3 days you ..." </i>
I've requested this earlier, in a most polite tone, and you've responded atleast four times since, each time evading the answer or any reference to it.
#77
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"a majority appears to be ashamed of what happened"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "appears" here is more a pointer to my ignorance than anything else.

When 1984 Sikh-massacre happened, I was in the middle of it. My family and I exprienced it. I lived through the post-traumatic period. I read books and newspapers, saw programs, met others in the same country, on both sides of the fence and discussed it threadbare.

Now, however, as several years have passed and Indian has emerged from it, I am outside India. I no longer have access to the pulse of India as I had then. However, I have seen heartfelt apologies on the internet. Therefore, I am guardedly saying that there "appears" to be. I will be most happy to remove the "appears." I want to. I just want to see it for myself.

You say that facts are to the contrary. Perhaps. But I have to form an opinion for myself weighing the facts like I did before. I won't have someone else do it for me.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Your opinions could be more important<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I never said they were. All I said was this was a symmetrical situation.
Person J: Situation is X.
Person V: Situation is Y.
They're both in a similar position. Only what they believe is different. None is more important than the other.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I've requested this earlier, in a most polite tone, and you've responded atleast four times since<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a false statement. Your first post in response to mine was the one that I termed obnoxious. Since then I may responded 4 times, but to others, not to you. I didn't respond to you until I had some sort of explanation from you.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps you could point me to quotes from a single Hindu (non-Congress affiliated) who said "Sikhs needed to be taught a lesson" or "add that it was perhaps overdone" or "Had we given you (the Sikhs) 3 days you ..."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was said by my (Hindu) classmates, my (Hindu) friends' and their parents and my (Hindu) relatives and other Hindus (like shopkeepers, etc.) that we interacted with.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sure you've seen various leaders of Akali Dal who have headed minority commissions have in fact praised the efforts of Hindus in standing with their Sikh brothers during those tough times.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And when did I not acknowledge that?
All my posts are there for you to see. Do you see me unreservedly saying that all Hindus are evil? I have given them credit where due. Please quote a post of mine where I have implied otherwise and I will prove that you have misunderstood.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the claim of "The only reason I have heard they did so was not because they were protecting Sikhs but they feared retaliatory attacks by Sikhs".. tell me if there were riots in your neighbourhood would you care if the mob heading towards your house was a hindu/muslim/sikh?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I wouldn't care. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was that Mudy was trying to make out Hindus as lily white, which is not true. They are just humans with warts and all. There were evil things that they did, just as she says Sikhs did. Again there's a symmetrical situation:
1. Sikhs killed Hindus before the massacre.
2. Hindus killed Sikhs during the massacre.
So I was telling her that there were motivations other than altruism at work. That's it. No more.

Normally, I don't use terms like "Hindus" and "Sikhs". However, I noticed that Mudy keeps on blaming all Sikhs. So if it acceptable for her to tar a community with the same brush, why shouldn't it be acceptable if I do the same. Normally, I use terms like "rioters" or "mob" without reference to religion.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't help wonder if any Indian whether Hindu or non-Hindu is not ashamed of what happened in Delhi '84 and the subsequent botch by 9 different commissions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am convinced and relieved that you do feel ashamed. Not everyone is like you though. There are some Hindus I know who still feel otherwise. Which is why I wrote "a majority appears to..." I once came across a hate-Sikhs site that gloats at this event.
Maybe they aren't Indians. But they claimed to be Hindus.

Viren, please try to understand that I don't believe that all followers of your religion are evil. You seem to attribute that to me. This is untrue.
#78
No one is here trying to make anyone lily-white.

Here we are discussing what happened. There was lot of going on in Punjab before and after 84. Massacre or ethnic cleansing was going who ever had upper hand. Political party created situation and innocent people became victim, whether it was in Punjab or Delhi.
Have spent time in Punjab and Delhi, I have experienced and really sad what happened. As a society Indian failed, Indians can be used by politicians, society lack security. In Punjab, Punjab police was involved in lot on incidence and lot of greedy people exploited situation. Later Gill fixed Punjab Police problem to some extent, except corruption is still high.
Worst side of man was seen in Punjab and Delhi. People still don't trust each other.

Now bomb blasts are back in action in Delhi, I hope they keep check on those idiots. But local Punjabi newspaper in US and Khalistan motivated sites are still in same mode.
#79
I am as a hindu not ashamed of what happened in 1984 riots with sikhs, because as a proud hindu I know we have no part in sikh killings of 84. I have always seen sikhs as my band of brothers not as a seperate identity - the way I look at sullahs. I am proud of all my fellow hindus who truly follow hindu ideology in one way or other not some seculars, psecular, congressies and commies who are hindu for namesake only but in reality their character and moral is worth not more than 2 cent , and they scumbag and as worse as sullahs if not more, and these ass-H0Le are the one responsible for many of band of brothers masscare, not us proud hindus who stood our ground as best as we can to protect our sikh band of brothers from those scumbag namesake hindus. I do feel sorry that back than we were not strong enough but if it was not for the protest and resistance of proud hindus, there would have been at least 4-5 times more sikhs killed brutally by these commie/congressie/secular/p-secs.

So you must get your facts correct, your panwallah, class fellow, dhobi, neighbor could very well be commie/congressie/secular/psec etc and not a real hindu who believe in dharma, and consider hindus, sikhs, jain etc as one.

Regarding all sikhs being terrorist, I dont think that is true either. You can basically put them in two categories also, one who were brainwashed by pakis and others who were mere being stuck in the mess as secular/congress/commie media and parties were busy finger pointing all sikhs.

IN SHORT, FIGHT WAS BETWEEN SIKH TERRORISTS and CONGRESS/COMMIE/SECULARS/PSECs, and both Sikh and Hindu community end up taking the colleteral damage because of tussle between scum side of both the sikh and hindu society.

I do feel sorry for all the innocent hindus and sikhs who died, but i am not ashmed of anything, as I as a hindu have done nothing wrong to be ashmed off nor to do my proud hindu brothers and sisters.

YOUR BEEF is with CONGRESS/COMMIE/SECULARS/PSECS, take it with them if you have real balls rather than b!tching hindus for what they haven't done, unless you are not sikh enough to distingush between your friend and enemy.
#80
Jaspreet, Thanks for the clarifications and a detailed reply.

It's a pity that you had to live through a traumatic period and I sincerely hope that you and your family are over it. I'll pray that with other Sikh victims of '84 your family too will get justice. Have little hope, but can only pray.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But I have to form an opinion for myself weighing the facts like I did before. I won't have someone else do it for me. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough. But when you try to pass personal annecdotes attributed to some of your 'Hindu' friends, I too will be taking it with pinch of salt.

I too lived in India and Mumbai at the time. I do remember the exact moment (around 10 AMsh) when we got a news of the IG assassination; we were infact playing cricket (it was Diwali vacation). And we had atleast 3 sardar in our team (who are till date good friends). When we heard the news, as kids we just rejoiced on the prospect of some additional holidays and went about with our roadside match.
But when there were rumours of riots breaking out on Mumabai, couple of us had escorted a sikh friend and his family (who had come from Deolali - as Sikh you would know the significance of Deolali) on our bikes armed with cricket bats/stumps/bicycle chains and some soda bottles and whatever little we could muster (we didn't own guns). So when you come here and say that Hindus might have been weilding lathis to protect themselves instead of protecting sikhs, I particularly find it repulsive and offensive.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I've requested this earlier, in a most polite tone, and you've responded atleast four times since<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a false statement. Your first post in response to mine was the one that I termed obnoxious. Since then I may responded 4 times, but to others, not to you<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, I stated that you responded 4 times which is true and I had not specified that you were responding 4 times to me. My point was that on four different occassions you had a logged on the forum and posted replies but, never to a simple question that I had asked either directly or indirectly. Insignificant now.


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Perhaps you could point me to quotes from a single Hindu (non-Congress affiliated) who said "Sikhs needed to be taught a lesson" or "add that it was perhaps overdone" or "Had we given you (the Sikhs) 3 days you ..."
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was said by my (Hindu) classmates, my (Hindu) friends' and their parents and my (Hindu) relatives and other Hindus (like shopkeepers, etc.) that we interacted with. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry to hear about the kind of friends and relatives you had. Again, I'm not sure if they had pretty strong bias for Congress. Since I don't have access to them and have not read about their religious/political leanings either on/offline, I can't comment on this. There are dime a dozen Sikh websites online which has similar propoganda material peddled along with the Khali stan which in my opinion exists only between their ears.
As I had said earlier, every Hindu I knew didn't even bat an eyelid, let alone shed a tear for assasination, they just went about their lives no malice for any community with same relations as before. Nor have I seen this in any mainstream media.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have given them credit where due. Please quote a post of mine where I have implied otherwise and I will prove that you have misunderstood.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can your quote - the one pertaining to <i>your strong belief that Hindus but not Congress against Sikhs</i> - can it be read any other way than the way I interpreted it?
It was death of Congress leader which provoked Congress goons - and the list had all kinds of people in it, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs. One of the prime responsible in my opinion is P C Alexander, not because he's non-Hindu/Hindu but because of the gross deriliction of duty in terms of delaying the calling out the army on that fateful day, others being Bhagat, Tyler, Sajjan, Nath etc.


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Viren, please try to understand that I don't believe that all followers of your religion are evil. You seem to attribute that to me. This is untrue.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your intials statements like "my belief is that at that time, it was Hindus against Sikhs, not just Congress against them" seemed to convey just the opposite of what you are saying now. I'll accept your latest statement, and put matter to rest.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Normally, I use terms like "rioters" or "mob" without reference to religion. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree here for a change. The rioters/mob has no religion. Let's leave it at that.

Also, Jaspreet, a side note. About a year ago, when Manmohan Singh became PM, there were couple think tanks and organizations outside India who wanted to raise this issue at UN. We at IF are united in our belief that all Indian matters be resolved within Indian system - however good/flawed. Needless to say these people were pushing us to run some petitions which we politely and firmly declined (some of our petitions have made it into leading print media of India like ToI <!--emo&Wink--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
So, hope you understand our skeptisim in terms of accepting things at their face value - especially on this issue.


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