08-20-2005, 08:46 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"a majority appears to be ashamed of what happened"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "appears" here is more a pointer to my ignorance than anything else.
When 1984 Sikh-massacre happened, I was in the middle of it. My family and I exprienced it. I lived through the post-traumatic period. I read books and newspapers, saw programs, met others in the same country, on both sides of the fence and discussed it threadbare.
Now, however, as several years have passed and Indian has emerged from it, I am outside India. I no longer have access to the pulse of India as I had then. However, I have seen heartfelt apologies on the internet. Therefore, I am guardedly saying that there "appears" to be. I will be most happy to remove the "appears." I want to. I just want to see it for myself.
You say that facts are to the contrary. Perhaps. But I have to form an opinion for myself weighing the facts like I did before. I won't have someone else do it for me.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Your opinions could be more important<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I never said they were. All I said was this was a symmetrical situation.
Person J: Situation is X.
Person V: Situation is Y.
They're both in a similar position. Only what they believe is different. None is more important than the other.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I've requested this earlier, in a most polite tone, and you've responded atleast four times since<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a false statement. Your first post in response to mine was the one that I termed obnoxious. Since then I may responded 4 times, but to others, not to you. I didn't respond to you until I had some sort of explanation from you.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps you could point me to quotes from a single Hindu (non-Congress affiliated) who said "Sikhs needed to be taught a lesson" or "add that it was perhaps overdone" or "Had we given you (the Sikhs) 3 days you ..."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was said by my (Hindu) classmates, my (Hindu) friends' and their parents and my (Hindu) relatives and other Hindus (like shopkeepers, etc.) that we interacted with.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sure you've seen various leaders of Akali Dal who have headed minority commissions have in fact praised the efforts of Hindus in standing with their Sikh brothers during those tough times.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And when did I not acknowledge that?
All my posts are there for you to see. Do you see me unreservedly saying that all Hindus are evil? I have given them credit where due. Please quote a post of mine where I have implied otherwise and I will prove that you have misunderstood.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the claim of "The only reason I have heard they did so was not because they were protecting Sikhs but they feared retaliatory attacks by Sikhs".. tell me if there were riots in your neighbourhood would you care if the mob heading towards your house was a hindu/muslim/sikh?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I wouldn't care. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was that Mudy was trying to make out Hindus as lily white, which is not true. They are just humans with warts and all. There were evil things that they did, just as she says Sikhs did. Again there's a symmetrical situation:
1. Sikhs killed Hindus before the massacre.
2. Hindus killed Sikhs during the massacre.
So I was telling her that there were motivations other than altruism at work. That's it. No more.
Normally, I don't use terms like "Hindus" and "Sikhs". However, I noticed that Mudy keeps on blaming all Sikhs. So if it acceptable for her to tar a community with the same brush, why shouldn't it be acceptable if I do the same. Normally, I use terms like "rioters" or "mob" without reference to religion.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't help wonder if any Indian whether Hindu or non-Hindu is not ashamed of what happened in Delhi '84 and the subsequent botch by 9 different commissions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am convinced and relieved that you do feel ashamed. Not everyone is like you though. There are some Hindus I know who still feel otherwise. Which is why I wrote "a majority appears to..." I once came across a hate-Sikhs site that gloats at this event.
Maybe they aren't Indians. But they claimed to be Hindus.
Viren, please try to understand that I don't believe that all followers of your religion are evil. You seem to attribute that to me. This is untrue.
The "appears" here is more a pointer to my ignorance than anything else.
When 1984 Sikh-massacre happened, I was in the middle of it. My family and I exprienced it. I lived through the post-traumatic period. I read books and newspapers, saw programs, met others in the same country, on both sides of the fence and discussed it threadbare.
Now, however, as several years have passed and Indian has emerged from it, I am outside India. I no longer have access to the pulse of India as I had then. However, I have seen heartfelt apologies on the internet. Therefore, I am guardedly saying that there "appears" to be. I will be most happy to remove the "appears." I want to. I just want to see it for myself.
You say that facts are to the contrary. Perhaps. But I have to form an opinion for myself weighing the facts like I did before. I won't have someone else do it for me.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Your opinions could be more important<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I never said they were. All I said was this was a symmetrical situation.
Person J: Situation is X.
Person V: Situation is Y.
They're both in a similar position. Only what they believe is different. None is more important than the other.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I've requested this earlier, in a most polite tone, and you've responded atleast four times since<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a false statement. Your first post in response to mine was the one that I termed obnoxious. Since then I may responded 4 times, but to others, not to you. I didn't respond to you until I had some sort of explanation from you.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps you could point me to quotes from a single Hindu (non-Congress affiliated) who said "Sikhs needed to be taught a lesson" or "add that it was perhaps overdone" or "Had we given you (the Sikhs) 3 days you ..."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was said by my (Hindu) classmates, my (Hindu) friends' and their parents and my (Hindu) relatives and other Hindus (like shopkeepers, etc.) that we interacted with.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sure you've seen various leaders of Akali Dal who have headed minority commissions have in fact praised the efforts of Hindus in standing with their Sikh brothers during those tough times.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And when did I not acknowledge that?
All my posts are there for you to see. Do you see me unreservedly saying that all Hindus are evil? I have given them credit where due. Please quote a post of mine where I have implied otherwise and I will prove that you have misunderstood.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the claim of "The only reason I have heard they did so was not because they were protecting Sikhs but they feared retaliatory attacks by Sikhs".. tell me if there were riots in your neighbourhood would you care if the mob heading towards your house was a hindu/muslim/sikh?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I wouldn't care. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was that Mudy was trying to make out Hindus as lily white, which is not true. They are just humans with warts and all. There were evil things that they did, just as she says Sikhs did. Again there's a symmetrical situation:
1. Sikhs killed Hindus before the massacre.
2. Hindus killed Sikhs during the massacre.
So I was telling her that there were motivations other than altruism at work. That's it. No more.
Normally, I don't use terms like "Hindus" and "Sikhs". However, I noticed that Mudy keeps on blaming all Sikhs. So if it acceptable for her to tar a community with the same brush, why shouldn't it be acceptable if I do the same. Normally, I use terms like "rioters" or "mob" without reference to religion.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't help wonder if any Indian whether Hindu or non-Hindu is not ashamed of what happened in Delhi '84 and the subsequent botch by 9 different commissions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am convinced and relieved that you do feel ashamed. Not everyone is like you though. There are some Hindus I know who still feel otherwise. Which is why I wrote "a majority appears to..." I once came across a hate-Sikhs site that gloats at this event.
Maybe they aren't Indians. But they claimed to be Hindus.
Viren, please try to understand that I don't believe that all followers of your religion are evil. You seem to attribute that to me. This is untrue.