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Anti Brahminism
#21
The funny thing is the whole idea that there is a common community of Dalits or Brahmins is flawed. THere is no such thing, there are hundreds of clans and tribes that have been arbitrarily categorized as Dalits or Higher Caste etc..., but this is made up identity of dissimilar clans and Jati's that have individual needs and problems.

This was a clever Political maneuver done when India was founded to reduce regionalism. People can now unite with extraregional groups because now they are both labeled as 'lower' or 'higher' caste.

<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+May 23 2006, 04:08 AM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ May 23 2006, 04:08 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The main problem with 'dalits' is they cant think beyond blackening somebodys face. A sorry state where a nation is dominated with such idiotic discourse. This and that Arjun Singh interview and I have had my share for the day..  <!--emo&:grenade--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/grenade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='grenade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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#22
<b>Are Brahmins the Dalits of today? </b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->May 23, 2006
At a time when the Congress government wants to raise the quota for Other Backward Classes to 49.5 per cent in private and public sectors, nobody talks about the plight of the upper castes. The public image of the Brahmins, for instance, is that of an affluent, pampered class. But is it so today?

<b>There are 50 Sulabh Shauchalayas (public toilets) in Delhi; all of them are cleaned and looked after by Brahmins (this very welcome public institution was started by a Brahmin). </b>A far cry from the elitist image that Brahmins have!

There are<b> five to six Brahmins manning each Shauchalaya</b>. They came to Delhi eight to ten years back looking for a source of income, as they were a minority in most of their villages, where Dalits are in majority (60 per cent to 65 per cent). In most villages in UP and Bihar, Dalits have a union which helps them secure jobs in villages.

<b>Did you know that you also stumble upon a number of Brahmins working as coolies at Delhi's railway stations? One of them, Kripa Shankar Sharma, says while his daughter is doing her Bachelors in Science he is not sure if she will secure a job</b>.

<b>"Dalits often have five to six kids, but they are confident of placing them easily and well," he says. As a result, the Dalit population is increasing in villages. He adds: "Dalits are provided with housing, even their pigs have spaces; whereas there is no provision for gaushalas (cowsheds) for the cows of the Brahmins."</b>

You also find Brahmin rickshaw pullers in Delhi. <b>50 per cent of Patel Nagar's rickshaw pullers are Brahmins </b>who like their brethren have moved to the city looking for jobs for lack of employment opportunities and poor education in their villages.

Even after toiling the whole day, Vijay Pratap and Sidharth Tiwari, two Brahmin rickshaw pullers, say they are hardly able to make ends meet. These men make about Rs 100 to Rs 150 on an average every day from which they pay a daily rent of Rs 25 for their rickshaws and Rs 500 to Rs 600 towards the rent of their rooms which is shared by 3 to 4 people or their families.

<b>Did you also know that most rickshaw pullers in Banaras are Brahmins?</b>

Do our institutes connect with the real India?

This reverse discrimination is also found in bureaucracy and politics. <b>Most of the intellectual Brahmin Tamil class has emigrated outside Tamil Nadu. Only 5 seats out of 600 in the combined UP and Bihar assembly are held by Brahmins -- the rest are in the hands of the Yadavs.</b>

<b>400,000 Brahmins of the Kashmir valley, the once respected Kashmiri Pandits, now live as refugees in their own country, </b>sometimes in refugee camps in Jammu and Delhi in appalling conditions. But who gives a damn about them? Their vote bank is negligible.

And this is not limited to the North alone.<b> 75 per cent of domestic help and cooks in Andhra Pradesh are Brahmins. A study of the Brahmin community in a district in Andhra Pradesh (Brahmins of India by J Radhakrishna, published by Chugh Publications) reveals that today all purohits live below the poverty line</b>.

Eighty per cent of those surveyed stated that their poverty and traditional style of dress and hair (tuft) had made them the butt of ridicule. Financial constraints coupled with the existing system of reservations for the 'backward classes' prevented them from providing secular education to their children.

In fact, according to this study there has been an overall decline in the number of Brahmin students. With the average income of Brahmins being less than that of non-Brahmins, a high percentage of Brahmin students drop out at the intermediate level. In the 5 to 18 year age group, 44 per cent Brahmin students stopped education at the primary level and 36 per cent at the pre-matriculation level.

The study also found that 55 per cent of all Brahmins lived below the poverty line -- below a per capita income of Rs 650 a month. Since 45 per cent of the total population of India is officially stated to be below the poverty line it follows that the percentage of destitute Brahmins is 10 per cent higher than the all-India figure.

There is no reason to believe that the condition of Brahmins in other parts of the country is different. In this connection it would be revealing to quote the per capita income of various communities as stated by the Karnataka finance minister in the state assembly: Christians Rs 1,562, Vokkaligas Rs 914, Muslims Rs 794, Scheduled castes Rs 680, Scheduled Tribes Rs 577 and Brahmins Rs 537.

Appalling poverty compels many Brahmins to migrate to towns leading to spatial dispersal and consequent decline in their local influence and institutions. Brahmins initially turned to government jobs and modern occupations such as law and medicine. But preferential policies for the non-Brahmins have forced Brahmins to retreat in these spheres as well.

According to the Andhra Pradesh study, the largest percentage of Brahmins today are employed as domestic servants. The unemployment rate among them is as high as 75 per cent. Seventy percent of Brahmins are still relying on their hereditary vocation. There are hundreds of families that are surviving on just Rs 500 per month as priests in various temples (Department of Endowments statistics).

Priests are under tremendous difficulty today, sometimes even forced to beg for alms for survival. There are innumerable instances in which Brahmin priests who spent a lifetime studying Vedas are being ridiculed and disrespected.

At Tamil Nadu's Ranganathaswamy Temple, a priest's monthly salary is Rs 300 (Census Department studies) and a daily allowance of one measure of rice. The government staff at the same temple receive Rs 2,500 plus per month. But these facts have not modified the priests' reputation as 'haves' and as 'exploiters.' The destitution of Hindu priests has moved none, not even the parties known for Hindu sympathy.

The tragedy of modern India is that the combined votes of Dalits/OBC and Muslims are enough for any government to be elected. The Congress quickly cashed in on it after Independence, but probably no other government than Sonia Gandhi's has gone so far in shamelessly dividing Indian society for garnering votes.

<b>The Indian government gives Rs 1,000 crores (Rs 10 billion) for salaries of imams in mosques and Rs 200 crores (Rs 2 billion) as Haj subsidies. But no such help is available to Brahmins and upper castes. As a result, not only the Brahmins, but also some of the other upper castes in the lower middle class are suffering in silence today, seeing the minorities slowly taking control of their majority</b>.

Anti-Brahminism originated in, and still prospers in anti-Hindu circles. It is particularly welcome among Marxists, missionaries, Muslims, separatists and Christian-backed Dalit movements of different hues. When they attack Brahmins, their target is unmistakably Hinduism.
So the question has to be asked: are the Brahmins (and other upper castes) of yesterday becoming the Dalits of today?
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#23
is the current availaible translation of manusmriti authentic or is it anti brahmin- anti hindu lies

IX 3 . "Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence."

IX 18. "Women have no business with the text of the veda."

IX - 17. "(When creating them) Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of their) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct."


can anyone definativly confirm that this is the true translation of the 2nd century mansusmriti? Or is there any truth to the story that current translation of manusmriti was doctored during 500 years of mughal and 200 years of brit rule?

for any one not tired of reading hear is a brife dibate btwn me and other guy on a diffrent forum.


JAY:
Often Hindus, and specifically Brahmins are flogged with the stick of Manusmriti. A while ago I read some parts of Manusmriti posted in one of the posts. It was degrading to women and Sudras. It left me puzzled and confused. It was not what i had known of my religion. I asked few more knowledgeable Hindus about those concepts, they too knew little and only explanation I could get is 1) that no Hindu follows those teachings of Manusmriti and 2) it mentions in Manusmriti itself, that when Manuscript’s teaching seem in contradiction with that of Vedas one is suppose to follow the teachings of Veda. But this explanation did not satisfy me. I could not imagine that any Hindu scriptures would carry such verses as were mentioned here, as a part of Manusmriti.

But only recently I got an explanation that made more sense.

There is absolutely no proof that the current verses of Manusmriti are authentic and are the ones written in the 2nd century. The current available verses are in all probabilities doctored during the 300 years of Mughal and 200 years of British rule. The Manusmriti is the only scripture among all of several Vedic scriptures that carries such degrading teachings about woman and Sudras. Its teachings stands in total isolation with teachings of Gita, Mahabharat, Ramayan, Upnishad etc. Therefore it is totally unrealistic to believe that the society that so fondly adheres to the values of Mahabharata, Gita and Upnishad would have accepted the alleged teachings of Manusmriti.

The next question would be why only was Manusmriti altered? Well, most likely because it was the only scripture that gives specific guidelines of social conducts, just like Quran and Bible. Other Vedic Scriptures like Mahabharat and Upnishad are more spiritual and esoteric.

Any one knows if any alleged orginal manuscript of Manusmriti exsists?


Pradyumna:
Member since: December 2003
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As i've mentioned previously, Hinduism requires that you take what is useful and right, and discard that which is contrary to good judgement and dharma.

As far as the Manusmriti and the Vedas are concerned, it is suggested that where Manusmriti differs from Vedic teachings, one should follow the Vedic teachings. Secondly, Smriti is that "which is heard" in other words, it is transmitted orally from teacher-student in succession, and quite possibly over the years, has had numerous changes and add-ons reflecting the various times in Indian history. The vedas on the other hand, are "those which are revealed" to enlightened sages. These are constants and are not subject to human intervention and corruption - only mis-interpretation by those who are not qualified in understanding their riddled and sometime paradoxical statements.

In regards to "shudras" it should be understood well that in the original caste system "shudra" was a word for "apprentice" and hence "lower class" than those in established professions. Everyone was born as shudra (one not knowing what one's purpose/duty in life is, but is engaged in finding out), and is later (according to talent, skill, and development) relegated to one of the established classes (brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya, etc.) according to one's capacty and temperament (see for example, statements in Bhagavad Gita regarding the origins and reality of the Caste system). For instance, take the sacred thread ceremony (yagnopavita / upanayanam) that leads to one's entrance into the stage of "Brahmacharya" - such men are known as "twice born" because they have renounced their state of shudra / apprentice ship, and have mentally accepted their role as brahmins. At this stage, one has to perform the duties of a brahmin and must learn the vedic teachings so that they may be properly interpreted and passed on. That is the core role of brahmins in society - in parallel with their quest for self-realization through study of scriptures, practice of rituals, and eventually sannyasa (mental) leading to either jivanmukta or mukthi after physical death.

It should also be noted that by "not consulting Brahmanas" - they are referring to the guidance and wisdom of those who have made significant progress in the spiritual journey (saints, etc.) who have the frame of mind, to guide kshatriyas (administrators, kings, etc.) on the righteous path. It is because the "kings" and "rulers" of today not following the counsel of wise men - peace loving men - that the world is subject to the whims of power-hungry people. A brahmana (true one) is one who has renounced everything - and thereby may be said to be a "wise man" whose interests are in the welfare of the world - and not in selfish gains. Only by following the precepts of such people who have no personal conflicts of interest or selfish motives, can we move along the right path in terms of our social dharma. Otherwise, we breed a society where the strong rule the weak, and injustice will inevitably prevail. Only a man who doesn't want power, may be given power to rule - otherwise you invite disaster. Only a man who has surrendered everythign to God (his lust, his passions, his power-hungry impulses, his personal needs) will be able to resist the temptations of power, and thereby rule in a just manner. That is why Rama was considered a great ruler - he was the ideal administrator, as well as man (if you interpret the Ramayana correctly). Everythine he did, he did despite his own personal biases and interests - he did them for the welfare of the world, and always listened to his family-lineages divine Guru's (preceptors / self-realized sages) - Vasishta and Visvamitra. Recall that Vashishta was one of the original 7 sages (sapta-rishis) who was born from the mind of Brahma (his thoughts created the universe afterall) - hence, he is known as one of the 7 original "mind-born" sons of Brahma. You can even see the constellations Vasishta and Arundhati (the sage and his wife) in the constellation of the pleiadies star cluster at certain times of the year. I believe these are the two brightest stars in our visual range (the pole stars). The pleiadies is a cluster of 7 stars, from which, legend has it, our seven sages originated (yes, Hinduism does *say* this! i'm not making this up) ... if interepreted one way, the human race may have been the product of a potentially alien civilization representing the 7 sages. (a hypothesis that will take quite a long time to hash out, undoubtedly)

By not following this tradition, manu-smriti indicates that several "tribes" (possibly the origins of the rest of european civilization as we know it) began to diverge from the vedic path ... note the translation of the different tribal names to "persians" "greeks" etc. It was well known that back int he day, wise men of Greece and far-away lands would visit india to learn the arts, sciences, philosophical disciplines, and some came back enlightened or self-realized. Having read the works of "Marcus Aurelius" I sometimes wonder if he's not a self-realized man himself... (check out "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius)


Anyway, here are some interesting points of note from Wiki-pedia that describes them more generally, draw your own conclusions...

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The Manusmriti (Sanskrit ?????????), translated "Laws of Manu" or "Institutions of Manu", is regarded as a foundational work of Hindu law and ancient Indian society, compiled and written quite late, c.200 CE in India. It is one of the eighteen Smritis of the Dharma Sastra (or "laws of righteous conduct"); Smriti means "what is remembered" and is applied in general to a Hindu text other than the Vedas, including traditional Indian epics, the Puranas, and science and grammar treatises. Unlike the Vedas which are considered to be eternal or of divine origin, the Smritis are considered to be of human origin and therefore susceptible to the flaws of humans. They contain laws, rules and codes of conduct to be applied by individuals, communities and nations. Some of these laws codify the Hindu caste system and discuss the "stages of life for a twice-born man". The book is ascribed to Manu, said to be the forefather of all human race. Manu's writings prescribe a particular ideal of Indian society, conforming to detailed social and religious rules which are expressed as being in line with the universal ethical principle of 'dharma'. For many scholars, it is merely one (particularly influential) set of laws to which many Hindus have appealled - others guides to social practice exist, and have complemented or contradicted Manu throughout India's history and across its communities.

Manusmriti was quoted, especially by the British Colonial rulers of India as "the law-book" of the Hindus. Some Hindus allege that the colonial rulers, like Robert Clive and Lord Macaulay, would have found it a useful tool. They have argued that the caste system as prescribed by the Manusmriti developed a society that was very easy to subjugate and rule[citation needed]. Some people over the ages have quoted or interpreted the Manusmriti to justify Brahmin supremacy, the sanctity of the caste system and the lower status given to the so-called Dalits.

Manusmriti is a key text in justifying and prescribing the detailed precepts of the caste system. In it, society consists of four (later hereditary) classes - Brahmanas (teachers and priests), Kshatriyas (administrators and armymen), Vaishyas, also called as Aryas (traders, farmers and herdsmen) and Shudras (servants). It clearly defined the relative position and the duties of the several castes, and determined the penalties to be indicted on any transgressions of the limits assigned to each of them.

While the origins of caste system in India are still not clear, Manusmriti makes the following statement on the subject:

shanakaistu kriya-lopadimah Kshatriya-jatayah |
vrashalatvam gata loke brahmna-darshanen cha ||43||
Paundrash-Chaudra-Dravidah-Kamboja-Yavanah-Shakah |
Paradah Pahlavash-Chinah Kirata Daradah Khashah ||44||
— (Manusmritti, X.43-44)

which according to Indian History Sourcebook (The Laws of Manu) translates as follows:

43. But in consequence of the omission of the sacred rites, and of their not consulting Brahmanas, the following tribes of Kshatriyas have gradually sunk in this world to the condition of Shudras;

44. (Viz.) the Paundrakas, the Chodas, the Dravidas, the Kambojas, the Yavanas, the Shakas, the Paradas, the Pahlavas, the Chinas, the Kiratas, the Daradas and the Khashas.

Indian History Sourcebook: The Laws of Manu, c. 1500 BC, translated by G. Buhler

The Daradas lived to north-east of Kashmir, the Paradas on river Sailoda in Sinkiang province of China, the Kambojas in the regions of Pamirs (Tajikstan) and Badakshan (Afghanistan) north of Hindukush, the Yavanas in Bactria (Balkh) and the Shakas (Scythians) beyond river Jaxartes (Syr Darya) in Central Asia. The Pahlavas refer to the Persians. The Yavanas of Manu Smriti refer to the Greeks but in the after-times, the terms "Yavana" or "Yona", "Yonaka" took on a wider meaning of Mlechchas/Barbarians and a designation to all foreign tribes or the westerners visiting India (Padama Purana, Srshtikanda, 47.69-75).
Contents

Praise of the Manusmriti

In contrast to the ethical and historical criticisms of the caste system or Varna Vyavastha elaborated in the Manusmrti, defenders claim that it has rendered the society organized and peaceful, has decreased unemployment, created respect for teachers and priests, and preserved the ancient Hindu principles of purity in food and in family. It also strongly recommends the study of the Vedas and Vedic worship, and thus has arguably been a force for preservation of Vedic Hinduism.

Some of the positive injunctions of Manusmriti are:

* II - 2. "To act solely from a desire for rewards is not laudable, yet an exemption from that desire is not (to be found) in this (world): for on (that) desire is grounded the study of the Veda and the performance of the actions, prescribed by the Veda."
* II - 3. "The desire (for rewards), indeed, has its root in the conception that an act can yield them, and in consequence of (that) conception sacrifices are performed; vows and the laws prescribing restraints are all stated to be kept through the idea that they will bear fruit."
* III - 13. "The knowledge of the sacred law is prescribed for those who are not given to the acquisition of wealth and to the gratification of their desires; to those who seek the knowledge of the sacred law the supreme authority is the revelation (Sruti)."
* III - 93. "Through the attachment of his organs (to sensual pleasure) a man doubtlessly will incur guilt; but if he keep them under complete control, he will obtain success (in gaining all his aims)."
* III - 161. "Let him (a Student) not, even though in pain, (speak words) cutting (others) to the quick; let him not injure others in thought or deed; let him not utter speeches which make (others) afraid of him, since that will prevent him from gaining heaven."
* III - 162. "A Brahmana should always fear homage as if it were poison; and constantly desire (to suffer) scorn as (he would long for) nectar."
* IV - 2. "A Brahmana must seek a means of subsistence which either causes no, or at least little pain (to others), and live (by that) except in times of distress."
* IV - 3. "For the purpose of gaining bare subsistence, let him (a Brahmana) accumulate property by (following those) irreproachable occupations (which are prescribed for) his (caste), without (unduly) fatiguing his body."
* VI - 60. "By the restraint of his senses, by the destruction of love and hatred, and by the abstention from injuring the creatures, he becomes fit for immortality."
* VIII - 13. "Either the court (of justice) must not be entered, or the truth must be spoken; a man who either says nothing or speaks falsely, becomes sinful."
* VIII - 14. "Where justice is destroyed by injustice, or truth by falsehood, while the judges look on, there they shall also be destroyed."
[Updated on: Sun, 05/21/06 11:47 AM ]


Kashyap:

Member since: July 2004
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Thanks Pradyumna.Thats very informative.

My 2 cents:
Yes..The ManuSmriti is a "Smriti" compared to the Vedas which are considered "Shrutis".

A friend told me that Smritis are scholarly works while the Shrutis are a result of direct experience or revealation. Smritis are effective/ applicable for limited time periods while Shrutis are timeless.

Just had a thought that the ManuSmriti is like the Kama Sutra...
Probably well researched and written
Often misquoted/ misunderstood
A SOCIAL rather than SPIRITUAL work


kashyap
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JAY:


Thats fine but quotes like these

IX 3 . "Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence."

IX 18. "Women have no business with the text of the veda."

IX - 17. "(When creating them) Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of their) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct."

which are claimed to be in manusmriti cannot be authentic. It is absolutely impossible the culture that wrote, Mahabharat, Vedas, Upnishad could tolerate let alone write such thoughts about women. Any attempts of explaining such quote by any reasoning would give validity to lies. Does any one have definitive proof that this is the correct translation of the correct quotes from the original Manusmriti written in 2nd century AD? Unless that is proved, no explanations on any of the slendorous quotes should be given. They should be called for what they are, deliberate and systemic attempt of degrading and demoralizing our otherwise much refined society.
[Updated on: Mon, 05/22/06 07:41 PM ]

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Re: The Manusmriti Issue [post #569653 is a reply to post #568525 ] Mon, 05/22/06 07:16 PM
jay
Member since: December 2005
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Pradyumna wrote on Sun, 21 May 2006 08:29


In regards to "shudras" it should be understood well that in the original caste system "shudra" was a word for "apprentice" and hence "lower class" than those in established professions.

Interesting. what is the source of this information.
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Pradyumna:

Member since: December 2003
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I apologize, I don't have the original source - but I did read about it many years back.

As far as those particular statements you highlighted, again, Hindu culture did not produce the vedas - the vedas were words of the divine (Krishna, etc.) to the people who followed sanatana dharma. The Manusmrithis were written by men, of power, who were influenced heavily by the prevailing ideas of the time. You can't escape your cultural input - the same texts Bhagavad Gita, etc. interpreted by a man who was heavily influenced by the cultural paternalistic thinking, would naturally interpret things with his own limited analytical skill. Only a purely unbiased mind can arrive at the right conclusions - those who wrote the manusmrithi's were not self-realized - just "wise" administrators of that day and age. The history is not important - what is important is that YOU knowing what you know, DO the RIGHT thing for *this* time-period, and *this context*. We have to live in today's world, balancing what we know is fair and right with our best understanding of how to progress spiritually.

The problem we keep running into is that people keep mixing *spirituality* with *culturality*. Indian culture is not perfect by any means; but it has a lot of good and valuable things to teach us going forward. No culture is perfect, but you take the best, and move forward. God doesn't give a crap about your cultural ideas - he's not involved with all that. He wants you to realize who you are - and that has always been, and always will be his only message. The rest are going to change as functions of political systems, cultural thought, philosophical views (on ethics, morality, etc.) and god knows what. Time changes everything - the only constant is the fundamental truth that God reminds people of from time to time.
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JAY:

Member since: December 2005
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AGAIN, what all you say makes sense only after one is convinced beyond doubt that the above mentioned quotes are authentic quotes from Manusmirity. What reason do we as Hindus have to accept those quotes as authentic part of our past?

The quotes may have little or no spiritual impact as spirituality is everyone's personal business. But validity of those quotes have significant social and political ramification. In this world of mortals that is a religion's first goal. A healthy society.

Understanding about Krishna and Ram is all fine but non of them are going to come save you when those who believe those quote to be authentic, come to savage you and your family thinking you to be the devil you were made to be by these very quotes.

These splinters of lies, if ignored will infect our society, killing us not by our wounds but by our complacenc



Pradyumna:


Member since: December 2003
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At the end of the day, our culture is going to die off anyway. So is every other culture. The culture of hinduism today is not the same as it was 1000 years ago. The spiritual truths will remain intact - assuming there is a spiritual truth in the first place (some introspective faith in something larger than ourselves helps here - intuition if you will). If you think that the culture of hindu's today has anything to do with the culture of indians 100 years ago, you are quite misinformed.

My basic question is this: what reason do you need to accept or reject manusmrithi? It has no relevance to your life today. It has no relevance to spirituality. Whatever is useful has lived on, whatever isn't, has or will soon die off. That is the natural order of things. Your goal is to live in the here and now, while figuring out who you really are - it doesn't matter what who said when. The fact that the bhagavad gita is authentic, is enough to drive one's spiritual quest to find one's true self. The rest, really don't mean anything beyond the fact that they may provide historical context, if that. Religion is too often confused with memorization of historical facts (notorious in Christianity), whereas spirituality has nothing to do with history - it is a deep investigation into the here and now. Even if you don't accept the bhagavad gita, you will still be able to do a serious introspective analysis of yourself, and arrive at the same conclusions - but it will take you longer. So, a little faith is required at the beginning; the proof as they say will be in the pudding. If it helps you, you must be doing something right. Find out what that something is, then reject the rest.

Culture, like all natural things or even emergent phenomenon, is subject to entropy. Spirituality, being outside the realm of what is observed, is not subject to birth-growth-decay-death. It remains in tact, despite whatever conceptions or misconceptions you may have. You just have to clear away the misconceptions, until the truth becomes self-evident. The vedas describe this process as "neti neti" or an introspective awareness that the self is "not this, ....not this..." so to speak. That is, not that which I observe with my eyes, not that which I hear with my ears, not that which I taste with my tongue, ... if you continue in this manner observing all the observable things and tracing them to their source; you eventually arrive at the source of that source... and the unspoken/unseen/unheard source behind *that* source is the Self. In the beginning, you can infer the truth; in the end, you experience the truth as yourself - or so the ancients have said.

My point is, Manusmrithi be damned - we live in the 21st century. If god is really upset with us, let him take a human form and re-instruct us at his discretion. We cannot be held accountable for the knowledge passed on thousands of years ago in shoddy form. Even if hinduism were to die today, it is God's responsibility, not ours to ressurect it. You came into this world with its cultures, its problems, its faiths, its what-nots, ... you assume responsibility for what was never really yours ... you undergo untold miseries for problems you think you inherited... and you lose precious time in analyzing and realizing your true nature in external pursuits. Even pursuing the origins of religious/spiritual documents is an external thing and will not lead you any closer to realization. You think that *they* have the answers, when the real answers are within yourself, which you continually ignore. If you, who know yourself so well (being you), cannot see yourself, what chance does some joe shmo from abu-dabi have in tellling you about yourself? Challenge your own assumptions, observe your own mind, live in a manner consistent with your words and your thoughts. Have faith that He can and will do whatever is necessary to bring mankind onto the path that leads to him.
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#24
I am sure the below will give an instant orgasm to dravidianists..

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The homesickness and wistfullness underlying Dr. P.V. Indiresan's
remarks found a deep resonance in me.  I suppose there are many both
in India and abroad like me with experiences similar to those of Dr.
Indiresan and his family.

Out of seven children of my parents four of us ended up in the U.S.
and others decided to "brave it up" and stay in India.  All seven
siblings felt (and still feel) regrets and guilt; those who stayed
back never cease to wonder what would have happened if they also
chose to be "foreign returned," and those who came here feel guilty
of abandoning one's parents!

In many ways we chose to become refugees, and we continue to use our
caste (Brahmin) to justify our choice of "refugeehood. This
beautiful land did provide us(some times very grudgingly)with
intellectual, academic, material and financial succor! Although we
all had our share of racial and gender discrimination both overt and
covert in this country, we willingly paid that price -- sometimes
not so willingly! But some kinds of payments were too dear.  One of
my deepest felt and life-long regrets is that I could never get a
visitor- or tourist visa for my parents! The U.S. govt. in their
infinite wisdom decided that my parents will "take away" jobs from
Americans and/or they will be burden on the public funds, by going
on "welfare!" Consider this:  my father was an ordinary Indian, I
adored him for his humor, his knowledge of Karnatic music, Sanskrit
drama etc.  There was no market for his hobbies. He was not going to
get a "job" here.  My mother was knowledgeable in the usual Tamil
literature stuff like Andaal, Valluvar, PattaNittar, Bharatiyar!
Who would want to employ her here! Furthermore, among their four
children here, there were nearly twenty earned college degrees! We
were not destitutes or illegal immigrants!  We were employed
citizens and not about to put our parents on "welfare!"  Our
arguments convinced the authorities NOT to issue visas.  We were
advised to apply for "Green card" for my parents!! Such racist
perversity!!  If my parents came as tourists they would go
on "welfare" and if they come with a "Green card" they would not
take jobs or go on welfare!?  Some logic!!
I mention these just to convey a feeling of "loss" we the "caste
refugees" always had.  My parents (I suspect like many others) were
not about to banish themselves from India, just to see how well
their children were doing here! Deep down I think we wanted a
validation for our choice of abandening Bharatam due to crass
earthly ambitions!  We envied our siblings who stayed behind
in "mantra desha" and "yoga/yaga bhuumi" that is India!
Of course, no one stops us from going back! But not all of us are
strong enough to get out of our self-made trap and go back.
We have always been part of the emotional, sentimental, mental,
cultural and spiritual ecology of Bharatam; no other land will be
able to provide us proper niches for our growth.  That was our birth
right to grow in our "dharma-kshetra."  We were deprived (at least
that is the perception of some of us) of that because of our
caste!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  Reply
#25
The above was in response to the below article..

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Tamil Brahmins are the new minority
  Gayatri Jayaraman
  Sunday, May 21, 2006  00:13 IST

  Mumbai: “The only person in the state to oppose reservations and to insist no
new categories be added to it is me, and I have no takers” says Cho Ramaswamy,
journalist and political commentator.

“Forget Jayalalithaa, even a paper like the Hindu will never oppose reservations
in this state because the minority - the forward classes - have no voice.”

The reason behind the success of reservation in the state, he says, is its
brilliant use as a political tool to sway the majority vote bank and the
‘pathetic state’ of the minority community.

“Reservations in Tamil Nadu have been in place seen pre-independence from the
time of the justice party. Hence the electorate is accustomed to it more than
any other state,” he says. All political parties in Tamil Nadu support
reservation without opposition.

Very few statistics are available on the state of the ‘forward community’ in
Tamil Nadu. P V Indiresan, a Padma Bhushan awardee and former director of IIT
Chennai, says, “I am in Delhi because of the reservations in Tamil Nadu. My
immediate family and of those I know have all migrated from Tamil Nadu to other
states or other countries and will never return.”

On December 27, 2005, the Tamil Brahmin Association, headed by N Narayan,
submitted a proposal before the state government seeking 15 per cent reservation
for Brahmins in educational and governmental institutions.

Nothing, not unexpectedly, came of it.In Tamil Nadu, Backward Castes (BC) get 30
per cent reservation in educational institutions, Most Backward Castes (MBC) 20;
Scheduled Castes (SC) 18; and Scheduled Tribes (ST) one per cent. The 1,224
medical seats then get divided into 354 for BCs; 247 for MBCs; 226 for SCs; and
13 for STs.

The rest of the 384 seats are allowed as open competition, where everyone
competes, regardless of community. In 2005, the final tally released by the
Directorate of Medical Education indicates only 28 students from the
`non-reserved’ or Forward Caste (FC) have got into government medical colleges,
representing about 2.3 per cent.

Are Brahmins a minority in the state and should reservations be extended to
them? “Brahmins were always a minority,” points out Prakash, a financial analyst
in a leading multinational firm.

“Their focus was always on education. So when they were denied that, they just
left and began to find it elsewhere.” While few grudge the righting of a
historical wrong, many fear the lack of educational opportunity will shut the
door on them.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  Reply
#26
The road not taken by the tambrams
---
The following article is from counter currents , a commie website,
but it shows how in karnataka, by coopting many backward castes, anti-brahminism has been reduced to a much smaller level

Jayendra Saraswati was trying to move in the same direction, but it was probably 50 years too late


http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-menon300304.htm

KARNATAKA -Mutts as political players

The Madhwa mutts in the coastal belt have been vehicles for the spread of Hindutva, both as an ideology and as an electoral force.

The two most prominent mutts that have long been the standard-bearers of the Hindutva cause are the Pejavar and Adamar mutts. The pontiff of the Pejavar mutt, Sri Vishwesa Tirtha Swamiji, is a founder-member of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and has been associated with the Ram Janmabhoomi movement from its inception

Speaking to Frontline from Udupi, the octogenarian head of the Pejavar mutt said he actively propagated the message of Hindutva and spread the aims of the Ayodhya movement by addressing meetings, rallies and samaveshas (mass meetings). "I speak about it and answer questions. If there is any wrong writing on these issues in newspapers, I reply immediately. I know from the reactions at my meetings that the message has spread very well in Karnataka." As a margadarshi for the VHP, he had ensured that his mutt worked with the VHP on many activities, he said, although the mutt also worked through its own organisations, particularly in providing education and healthcare in tribal areas and inaccessible hilly regions.

The Pejavar mutt, in particular, has given active patronage to the samavesha, which has, in recent months, become the most popular method of Hindu mass mobilisation in the coastal belt. Following the Gujarat riots, the samavesha has become a frequent event, spreading now from the cities to small towns and villages of Udupi and Dakshina Kannada districts. "The town or village is first covered with plastic saffron flags of the VHP. The meeting is usually held near a minority-dominated area. Leaders of the VHP, like Pravin Togadia, spit fire and venom in their speeches, which threaten the minorities and exhort Hindus to build a Hindu Rashtra," said H. Pattabhirama Somayaji, Professor of English at University College, Mangalore. "Mutt leaders like the Pejavar Swamiji are frequent speakers at these meetings. In fact, in the last 10 years the mutts have become the standard bearers of Hindutva rather than formal political parties. Political leaders depend more and more upon the Swamijis to get their message across."

With the emergence of the mutts as the rallying points for Hindutva in this region, the distinction between the religious and the political as different spheres of public activity has all but disappeared. "Most religious functions have been saffronised," said Somayaji. Take paryaya, a ceremony held every two years to mark the passing on of the authority to conduct worship in the Krishna temple amongst the pontiffs of the eight Madhwa mutts. From a ceremony confined to a sect of Madhwa Brahmins in Karnataka, paryaya has virtually become a State-level function for all Hindus and a major expression of the power and prestige of the mutt concerned. This year's paryaya ceremony was attended by a galaxy of persons prominent in public life in the State. Even the myriad `little traditions' of Hinduism, like the Bhootakulas - a popular form of spirit worship practised in the villages of Dakshina Kannada district by members of the lower castes - have been permeated by the colour, sound, speech and symbolism of Hindutva, said Somayaji.

"I have lived here for the past 50 years and was saddened to see the Udupi Krishna temple founded 7,000 years ago by the great Madhwacharya, flying the flag of the VHP," said G. Rajashekhar, an employee of the Life Insurance Corporation of India and an active member of the Souharda Vedike, an organisation that has been fighting communalism. According to him, the Pejavar Swamiji welcomed and blessed Pravin Togadia at a mammoth samajotsava held recently in Udupi. The banners at the rally glorified Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, and Togadia and hailed Dara Singh, the murderer of the Australian missionary Graham Stains and his two sons, as the "saviour of Hinduism". "We protested to the District Commissioner, after which Dara Singh's name was removed from the banners," said Rajashekhar. "The Pejavar Swamiji says he condemns the violence in Gujarat. Why does he then continue to patronise Hindutva outfits that supported it?"

The Pejavar Swamiji told Frontline that though he might share a platform with Modi or Togadia, he did not hesitate to disagree with them publicly on some issues. "I argue with them and oppose them whether it is the Gujarat violence or the issue of war with Pakistan which Togadia supports and I oppose, or with Giriraj Kishore Acharya who recently said that the life of a cow was more precious than the life of a Dalit. I opposed them on all these issues," he said.

Although until very recently each Madhwa mutt had its own location of caste influence, in recent years the mutts have tried to propagate Hindutva across the caste divide. Mahatma Gandhi refused to enter the Krishna temple on a visit to Udupi in the 1930s because untouchability was practised there. Today, however, the mutts realise that for Hindutva to have any relevance for the lower-caste segments of the population, it has necessarily to be given political articulation and distanced, at least in its rhetoric, from Brahminism. The mutts realise that they cannot do this on their own and must associate themselves with the political outfits of the Sangh Parivar, which use the samaveshas as fora to make the call for the unification of Hindu society.

One of Hinduism's attributes was its sanction for a plurality of forms of religious practice. This non-threatening and accommodative element of Hinduism is being erased systematically by the votaries of Hindutva. Today, economically vulnerable castes like fisherfolk, weavers, carpenters, barbers, cobblers and potters are being drawn into the ambit of a militant Hindutva worldview. "It is clear from the attendance at their rallies that the appeal of the Hindutva parties is no longer to elitist Hindus but to Hindu society at large," says Rajashekhar. Here too it is the Pejavar mutt that has shown the way. Its pontiff has considerable influence with leaders both at the Centre and in the State.





  Reply
#27
>>Also the reason Thai Brahmanas look like thais is because the first settlers did not take any women with them, so they must have married with native women.>>

South India transformation is more along the lines of Tibet and China where the sanskritic <i>knowledge </i>was imported mainly by "researchers" residing in N India. only occassionally punctuated by north indian groups/individual teachers migrating. We also have the evidence of Sanskrit Tamil common origins, which should now transform the moribund paradigm of one-way diffusion. see the new article by david frawley and also the compilation work of v. keerthy kumar on the -datanumeric dravidian- site

wikipedia:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Hou Hanshu describes the enquiry about Buddhism made around 70 CE by the emperor Emperor Ming (58-75 CE):

"There is a current tradition that Emperor Ming dreamed that he saw a tall golden man the top of whose head was glowing. He questioned his group of advisors and one of them said: “In the West there is a god called Buddha. His body is sixteen chi high (3.7 metres or 12 feet), and is the colour of true gold.” The Emperor, to discover the true doctrine, sent an envoy to Tianzhu (Northwestern India) to inquire about the Buddha’s doctrine, after which paintings and statues [of the Buddha] appeared in the Middle Kingdom." (Hou Hanshu, trans. John Hill)

This encounter is further described in a 6th century CE account by Yang Xuanzhi:

"The establishment of the Báimǎ-Sì (White Horse Temple (白馬寺)) by Emperor Ming (58-75 CE) of the Han marked the introduction of Buddhism into China. The temple was located on the south side of the Imperial Drive, three leagues (li) outside the Xiyang Gate. The Emperor dreamt of the golden man sixteen Chinese feet tall, with the aureole of sun and moon radiating from his head and his neck. A "golden god", he was known as Buddha. The emperor dispatched envoys to the Western Regions ("遣使向西域求之") in search of the god, and, as a result, acquired Buddhist scriptures and images. At the time, because the scriptures were carried into China on the backs of white horses, White Horse was adopted as the name of the temple." (Translation: Ulrich Theobald). <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

we can only imagine what karunanidhi would do with these passages that speak of the golden god from the western regions....
  Reply
#28
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am dealing with a racist idiot here
Arya in sanskrit means noble, thats all
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ok, what are you trying to prove?
I am not going to respond, because I don't want this thread locked.

You are the one who started sobbing about Brahmana women sleeping with the DMK Oddans.

What is that? Some kind of egalitarian statement?

Whose side are you on?

Are you interested in protecting Tamil Brahmana interests or not?

Why don't you quit your attitude problem and work toward setting up a traditional Brahmana Sabha here in the US?

  Reply
#29
<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Jun 3 2006, 10:29 AM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Jun 3 2006, 10:29 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am dealing with a racist idiot here
Arya in sanskrit means noble, thats all
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whose side are you on?

Are you interested in protecting Tamil Brahmana interests or not?

Why don't you quit your attitude problem and work toward setting up a traditional Brahmana Sabha here in the US?
[right][snapback]52068[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Until GS responds.....)

What is the reason for your obsession with Brahmins? You've already indicated that your idea of Racial Purity passes of as discussions on caste system.

Why GS or anybody in general should take side? Or should exclusively speak for Brahmins?

You hardly realize that narrow minded views as your actually perpetuates caste system.
  Reply
#30
<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Jun 3 2006, 10:29 AM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Jun 3 2006, 10:29 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am dealing with a racist idiot here
Arya in sanskrit means noble, thats all
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ok, what are you trying to prove?
---
You are a disciple of Max Mueller and have an Aryan race fixation
You are infatuated with nordic IQ which is much less than tambram IQ
---

I am not going to respond, because I don't want this thread locked.

You are the one who started sobbing about Brahmana women sleeping with the DMK Oddans.

---
I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of the dravidianists who while slinging mud on
the brahmin have sexual fascination with brahmin and north Indian women
Again your fixation with barbers. Oddan / Ambattan is a derogatory
caste name for barber.
And how about the thousands of ambattans that Ramanuja inducted into
the brahmin caste
And a sizable amount of tambram women are psec bimbos sleeping with
muslims. Look at the latest wife of Salman Rushdie
---

What is that? Some kind of egalitarian statement?

Whose side are you on?

--
I am on nobodys side
I just expose facts
---

Are you interested in protecting Tamil Brahmana interests or not?

--
I dont have the time nor inclination to set up brahmana sabhas
The tambrams in the US have gone through and survived the Darwinian process and probably have an IQ of 125 and will prosper, while the dravidianists bark at the moon
----

Why don't you quit your attitude problem and work toward setting up a traditional Brahmana Sabha here in the US?
[right][snapback]52068[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  Reply
#31
<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Jun 4 2006, 12:43 AM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Jun 4 2006, 12:43 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->While the Tambram situation is unfortunate, I think the present discussion perhaps belongs in the anti-brahminism thread. In this thread, it would be nice if we can concentrate on rebutting the argument that reservations do not affect productivity/efficiency of an economy.
[right][snapback]52086[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The tambram situation has some serious aspects different from the general anti-reservation stuff

Such as beef eating festivals, idol slippering , etc

The north Indian forward caste cannot be called an outsider
  Reply
#32
Secessionism of the dravidian movement

http://www.geocities.com/tamiltribune/05/0502.html

Why DK and DMK initially asked for Independent Dravida Nadu and later moved towards Independent Tamil Nadu

Thanjai Nalankilli

TAMIL TRIBUNE, May 2005 (ID. 2005-05-02)
Click here for MAIN INDEX to archived articles (main page)
www.geocities.com/tamiltribune

ABBREVIATIONS

DK - Dravidar Kazhagam

DMK - Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka and Andhra should each SEPARATELY become independent countries and THEN the four should join to form a 'Dravidian Federation'." - Official history of Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) by a founding member of DK and DMK, Mr. T. M. Parthasarathy

A question often asked of me when I speak about the current Tamilnadu Independence Movement is, "why did Dravidar Kazhagam (DK) and Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) demand independent Dravida Nadu in its early years and not independent Tamil Nadu?" (Dravida Nadu, as it was contemplated, consisted of the region where Kannadigas, Malayalis, Tamils and Telugus live. These people are of Dravidian origin and spoke the Dravidian languages of Karnataka, Malayalam, Tamil and Telugu. In today's (2005) geographical terms the contemplated Dravida Nadu would encompass the entire Southern India, consisting of Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu states.)

To understand the reason why DK and DMK demanded independent Dravidanadu and not independent Tamilnadu, one has to look into the history of Tamil Nationalist Movement or Tamil National Movement. The earliest call for independence was in fact for Tamil Nadu (and not Dravida Nadu) [Reference 1].

T. P. Vedachalam of the Justice Party founded Tamil Nation Liberation Association (Tamil Desa Viduthalai Sangam) in Tiruchi in August 1938. The Association held a few meetings around Tamil Nadu and then ceased its operations because the cause was adopted by a larger organization, the Justice Party itself.

Periyar E. V. Ramaswamy (EVR) of DK and C. N Annadurai (Arinjar Anna or CNA) of DMK also initially called for Tamil Nadu independence. Periyar EVR, who at that time headed the Self-Respect Movement, addressing a meeting in Salem on October 1938, said that, "the best way to preserve the liberty of Tamils is to agitate for separation from the rest of India and the proposed All-India Federation, just as Ceylon and Burma had chosen to stand aloof from India". He was elected President of the Justice Party in December 1938. He said that the separation of Tamil Nadu from the rest of the Indian Subcontinent would be the principal demand of the Party. Justice Party was reformed and renamed Dravidar Kazhagam (DK) in 1944.

In December 1939, speaking at the "Tamil Nadu for Tamils" Meeting, C. N. Annadurai enunciated the need for independent Tamil Nadu. He would found the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) in 1949.

In a speech on December 17, 1939, Periyar EVR raised the slogan "Dravida Nadu for Dravidians", changing the earlier slogan "Tamil Nadu for Tamils". It is at the Justice Party State Conference in Thiruvarur on August 24, 1940 that Tamil Nadu Independence Movement morphed into Dravida Nadu Independence Movement. It passed a resolution that, in order to protect Dravidian culture, arts and economy, the Dravidian homeland of Madras Province should be separated from the rest of the Indian Subcontinent and ruled as a separate unit (until the British leave the subcontinent, at which time the Madras Province would become an independent country). Thus what started as Tamil Nadu Independence Movement morphed into Dravida Nadu Independence Movement. At that time both Periyar E. V. Ramaswamy and C. N Annadurai were Justice Party members.

One reason for Justice Party's call for independent Dravida Nadu (instead of independent Tamil Nadu) could be the influence of Telugu leaders in the Justice Party at that time (Telugus are not Tamils but Dravidians). The top rung Telugu leaders in the Justice Party included A. C. Parthasarathy Naidu, Ragavaiah Naidu, K. V. Reddy Naidu and A. Subbarayalu Reddy. Another non-Tamil leader of the Justice Party was T. M. Nair (a Malayali); he strived very hard for Dravida Nadu independence. These leaders worked well with Tamil leaders of the party like Periyar EVR and Annadurai, and developed a strong bond. Thus what started as Tamilnadu independence movement changed to Dravidanadu independence movement. While the Telugu leaders in the Justice Party aspired for independent Dravida Nadu, there was very little support among the Telugu population. Neither was much support, if any, among the Malayali and Kannadiga population. In contrast, there was substantial active support for a separate country from India among the Tamil population (by no means it was a majority but the support was vocal, active and in substantial numbers).

After the renaming of Justice Party to Dravidar Kazhagam (DK) in 1944, almost all speeches and writings about Dravida Nadu independence were in Tamil with a sprinkling of English articles. Almost all public meetings and conferences about independent Dravida Nadu were held in Tamil areas. By now it was clear that the push would be for independent Tami Nadu with the concept of a federal Dravida Nadu, consisting of autonomous Andhra, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu, put in the backburner. This is very clearly stated in the official history of Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) by a founding member of DK and DMK, Mr. T. M. Parthasarathy, with an introduction by C. N. Annadurai. Parthasarathy writes in this Tamil book "Thi.Mu.Ka. Varalaaru" (DMK History),

"Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka and Andhra should each SEPARATELY become independent countries and THEN the four should join to form a 'Dravidian Federation'."

Thus DMK's position was to strive for an independent Tamil Nadu (Tamil Country) with the eventual creation of a Dravidian Federation called "Dravida Nau" (Dravidian Country) if and when people of Andhra, Karnataka and Kerala fight for and get independence. DMK abandoned its "independence for Dravida Nadu (or independent Tamil Nadu)" demand in 1963 immediately after the Indian Parliament passed the Sixteenth Amendment to the Indian Constitution that prohibited those who advocate separatism from running for public offices (such as Indian parliament and state legislative assembly) [Reference 2].

Dravidar Kazhagam (DK) changed its demand for independent Dravida Nadu to independent Tamil Nadu in the 1960s. Party President Periyar E. V. Ramaswamy changed the banner in his Tamil magazine Viduthalai from "Dravida Nadu for Dravidians" to "Tamil Nadu for Tamils". Periyar never gave up his demand for independence although he did not enter into any type of agitation for it after the 1950s; he was concentrating on social reforms in Tamil Nadu. According to Tamil Nationalist Poet Pavalareru Perunjchththiranar, Periyar told him just a few months before his death that he would start an agitation for Tamilnadu independence soon. Periyar passed away in 1973 before starting such an agitation.

Thus what started initially as Tamil Nadu independence took a turn to Dravida Nadu independence and then took a turn back to Tamil Nadu independence because there was very little, if any, support in Andhra Pradesh (Telugu), Karnataka (Kannada) and Kerala (Malayalam).
  Reply
#33
Anti-brahminism is simply a code word for anti-hinduism or separatism
The khalistanis, the north east xtian terrorists, the JK islamists all want separation from brahmin India
  Reply
#34
http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/199...50454.html

Worshippers' forum seeks ban on Ravan Leela play
EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHENNAI, Sept 29: The Temple Worshippers' Forum, on Monday, filed a Public Interest Litigation in the Madras High Court seeking to restrain the Periyar Dravida Kazhagam from staging a play `Ravana Leela', on the grounds that it would hurt the sentiments of the Hindus.
In a press release today, the Forum claimed that the Periyar Dravida Kazhagam had announced its intention to stage the play on October 1, as also their alleged intention to burn the effigies of deities Rama and Lakshmana in the city.

A Vacation Bench, comprising Justice Abdul Wahab and Justice P Thangavel, had directed the Police Commissioner to take appropriate measures as per the law to prevent burning of effigies, the release claimed.

The BJP too demanded that the State Government ban the `Ravana Leela', and prevent burning of effigies of Hindu Gods by the Periyar Dravida Kazhagam.

BJP State vice-president V Maithreyan, in a statement, charged that the programme drawn up by the Kazhagam aimed at denigrating the Hindu sentiments andfaith. If the DMK Government really believed in calling itself a secular Government, it could not allow activities aimed at ``hurting the belief and conviction of the followers of Hinduism,'' he added.

Pointing out that insulting religious feelings amounted to non-bailable offence, punishable under Section 295 A of Cr P C, Maithreyan regretted that though such activity attracted punishment up to three years in prison, the Tamil Nadu Police, in fact, provided protection to those who distributed hand bills in connection with the `Ravana Leela.'

Recalling that the DMK Government in 1971 permitted a procession at Salem in which the Dravida Kazhagam activists garlanded a Hindu God with footwear, he said anti-Hindu activities increased and gained prominence whenever the DMK came to power.

Copyright © 1998 Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd
  Reply
#35
The ideological hatred of the dravidianist movement towards hinduism is as strong as that of the commies

From an ideological viewpoint, the DMK is pro islamic terrorists
The DMK supported Al-Umma etc until they set off bombs
  Reply
#36
The brains behind the dravidianist movement are xtian missionaries
as without the brahmin, there is a vacuum which the missionary can fill
  Reply
#37
An article on Periyar in the commie website countercurrents

http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-periyar280603.htm

Looting of hindus temples

"Though a Congress leader, he supported in 1923, the Justice Party's measure to form Hindu Religious Endowment Board with a view to put an end to the age-old monopoly and exploitation of the upper castes in the managements of Hindu temples and religious endowments. "

Secessionist, anti-brahmin, anti-north Indian
". Now he added a new dimension to his movement, viz., demand for an independent Dravida Naadu. He was driven to make this demand in 1938-39, because he found the Brahminical upper castes whom he opposed for their social oppression, were in league with the North Indian Bania community (comprador capitalists) in imposing Hindi and in exploiting economically the people of South India. "


Anti-hindu, not just anti-brahmin
"Periyar's concept of Dravidians was not based on the purity of blood related to a race, but on values and ways of life. The Brahminical upper castes who followed the discriminatory socio-cultural principles, practices and traditions of Varna-Jaathi (caste system) originally enunicated in the Sanskrit scriptures like Vedas, Ithihaasas, Puraanas, Dharma Sastras etc. are Aryans. Those who subscribe to the egalitarian Tamil tradition and values of humanism are Dravidians. It may be recalled here that while addressing the conference of Backward Classes and Scheduled Castes in Kanpoor in Uttar Pradesh in December 1944, he appealed to the Non-Brahmins of North- India to give up the religious appellation of Hindu and call themselves as Dravidians"

Commie sympathiser
" In February 1941, the founder-leader of Radical Democratic Party, M.N.Roy, came to Chennai and stayed as Periyar's guest. He sought Periyar's cooperation to form a grand All India alliance against the Congress Party"

anti-hindu
"The Dravidar Kazhagam flag, in the ratio of 3 : 2, a red circle in the middle in the black background, was adopted in 1946. The black represented the deprivations and the indignities to which the Dravidians are subjected to under the Hindu religious milieu. The red stands for the determined efforts to dispel the ignorance and blind faith among the people and to liberate them materially and mentally from all kinds of exploitation, particularly those of social and cultural."

idol breaking
"In 1953, as instructed by Periyar, the Buddha's Day was celebrated through out the state urging the need to follow a rationalist way of life, and the idols of the elephant god Vinayaga (Ganesha) were broken to demonstrate symbolically the inefficacy of the innumerable deities worshipped by the educated and uneducated people"

burning Rama pictures
"On 1st August 1956, the Dravidar Kazhagam undertook an agitation of burning the portrait of Lord Rama as he symbolised the preservation of Varna dharma"

anti-India
"In June 1960, Periyar asked people to burn the map of India as a protest against the Central Government using the Union of India for upholding and safeguarding caste system. "

more separatism
"As recommended by the National Integration Commission under the Chairmanship of Sir C.P. Ramaswamy Iyer, the Parliament enacted a law in 1963, prohibiting the propa gation of ideas demanding separation from the Indian Union. Periyar vehemently opposed the law"

idol slippering processions
"On 23rd January a huge "procession of the eradication of superstitions" took place in Salem. The processionists carried large pictures and portraits truly depicting the events and gods described in epics and puranas. When a few intolerant orthodox onlookers threw footwears at the procession, the marchers used the same materials to beat the portrait of Rama beheading the Shudra Sambuka in deep meditation. This action of the Periyarists was blown out of proportion by the media through out India. They also published the pictures of gods and goddesses carried by the marchers. "

Ravan Leela celebrated
"Maniammaiyar protested against the celebrtion of Ramlila in Delhi as it degraded the original inhabitants of India as Rakshasas (demons), monkeys etc., and also gave a distorted view of history. As her protest fell on deaf ears, she celebrated 'Ravana Lila' in Chennai"




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#38
<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Jun 4 2006, 06:26 AM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Jun 4 2006, 06:26 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am on nobodys side
I just expose facts
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

My last post on this thread.
Thanks for the clarification.

Typical gutless Tam Bram answer. Too scared to take a stand.
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QUOTE
About 30% of Iyers and Iyengars are very fair skinned and can pass for a European.

Arguing with someone who posts the above is a waste of time

G.S
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#39
<!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo-->

This thread is too funny.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->30% of Iyers and Iyengars are very fair skinned and can pass for a European.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This "passing for others" is so funny. Wasn't mitradena the one who whined about white Oiropeans abrogating "Aryan heritage" in stormfront...lol..

All the whines about the unwashed dark heathen hordes forcefully fornicating with fair brahmin maidens...lol..forgive me for mistaking that I was in stormfront....lol..

Reservation needs reform and gradually the formerly oppressed and under priviledged should be weaned away from reservation.......BUT lord knows how some of the under priviledged communities have been oppressed in the past by denying education and in cases slavery...bonded landless laborers working like that for generations...God forbid if such communities get an extra hand...

like I said, reservation needs reform. the govt caste policies need reform. The govt should give the option of a person choosing not to have a caste. There should be a timetable set to gradually reduce quotas and eliminate it in the future. Education should be made free until 8th standard minimum and there should be many more competent education centres so that the hankering for seats is no more..so all communities can hope for a seat without resorting to demanding seats via quota.


I appeal to the admins to clean up certain posts. Don't make this forum an undesirable place.....it is fast heading that way....
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#40
<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Jun 3 2006, 07:03 AM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Jun 3 2006, 07:03 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Brahmins are the glue that binds Bharat.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not just Brahmanas, but other allied North Indian Aryan castes are the glue.
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lol...India has not broken up because all communities feel it would work. The moment the larger population of any region feel like it won't work, seperatism would rise (and JUSTIFIED in my opinion).

If and when majority Tamils feels like they are better off seperate, no power or caste n India would be able to stop it.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->We need to flood Tamil Nadu with more North Indians and kick the Ambattan brigade in the rear end.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It would work, except for one small problem <!--emo&Tongue--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->

For that you have to learn Tamil or else you will lose all your money to the autokaaran at the railway station itself. <!--emo&:devil--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devilsmiley.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='devilsmiley.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And once you learn Tamil, you become a Tamil. Such is the assimilative power of Tamil (and indeed of any region in India be it be Bengal or Gujarat or whatever)...
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