<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This "passing for others" is so funny. Wasn't mitradena the one who whined about white Oiropeans abrogating "Aryan heritage" in stormfront...lol..
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Here is a combined reply to Bharatvarsh & Gus.
Yes it was me who was whining before.
First of all, I am not white, I am brown and look completely like an Indian.
I am merely pointing out that a lot of Tamil Brahmanas are very fair and can pass for a European. This is fact. I don't the know exact percentage.
I am only reporting what I have seen.
The big question is how come there should even be a single fair skinned man in the middle of Tamil Nadu?
What does this indicate?
To me this indicates some kind of white mixture. This is the unfortunate truth!
<b>I say unfortunate because I don't want to find out that I am half-white!</b>
Unless someone here can point out some clear evidence otherwise, this is what I have to conclude.
I have read some passages in the Ramayana, Puranas etc... which seem to indicate that at least some of the original Brahmanas were white. And one - Rishi Kapila - appears to have been blond.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->All the whines about the unwashed dark heathen hordes forcefully fornicating with fair brahmin maidens...lol..forgive me for mistaking that I was in stormfront....lol..<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't like inter-caste marriage or inter-racial marriage.
I don't like Brahamana females regardless of skin color marrying out of caste.
I think I have made this clear many times before.
Besides I can quote from the Manu Smrti to back up my statements.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In my life I just saw 1 blond blue eyed, native Indian, and he was a Jain
migrant in tamil nadu originally from Rajasthan
Nordic means blue eyed and blond
This guy went on a trip to Nepal and on the way back, he was stopped by Indian customs who refused to believe that he was not a European
I have seen thousands of tambrams, never one blond and blue eyed
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G.Subramaniam,
I have seen 1 blond kashmiri Brahmana. That is it.
Blue eyes are very very rare. Green eyes are a bit more common.
However I have seen blue eyes among the following castes - Saraswata Brahmanas, Punjabi Khatris, Rajputs, Jats, Gujars, Yadavas, Bihari Brahmanas, Bengali Brahmanas, Jains, Kayasthas and also among South Indian Brahmanas.
I have one distant relative (Tam Bram) who has blue eyes.
I have seen many Tam Brams, especially Iyengars who have green eyes.
In South India I have seen green eyes among these castes - Bunts, Nairs, Reddys, Vokkaligas (Gowdas), Nayakas.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The big question is how come there should even be a single fair skinned man in the middle of Tamil Nadu?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From time to time, Brahmins from North India (Indus region) had migrated to south and other part of India. North Indians are light color, reason is climate and distance from Equator.
Well mitradena keep deluding yourself and trolling around on stormfront, let's see not one Tamil Brahmin I see can even come close to passing for a European, let's take all the prominent one's, here are some:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Spiritual Leaders
The list of Spiritual Leaders is large. It is sufficient to name some of the Great Teachers.
Paramacharya of Kanchi.
Ramana Maharishi was a sage who meditated in the forests of Arunachala.
Sheshadri Swamigal was a great Siddha who lived in the forests of Arunachala.
Swami Sivananda was a great yogi who lived in Rishikesh,in the foothills of Himalayas.
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar is the founder of the Art of Living.
Jagadguru Sri Jayendra Saraswati Swamiji, who has done yeoman service in regard to a more receptive attitude of Muslims for building a Rama temple in Ayodhya, is the present pontiff of Sri Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham.
Bharati Krishna Theerthaji was the Shankaracharya of Puri.He also brought Vedic mathematics to the modern world.
Krisha Premi a great saint and devotee of Krishna in modern times.
Muralidhar Guruji A great devotee of Lord Krishna in modern times
[edit]
Scientists and Academicians
Not all names can be put here as there are many Iyers who have served as directors of National Institutes. If any important name is missing, the list may be updated to include the person.
vocalist Chembai
vocalist Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer
composer/vocalist G. N. Balasubramaniam
vocalist D. K. Pattammal
violinist Dr.L.Subramaniam World renowned violinist
vocalist Madurai Mani Iyer
mridangist Kumbhakonam Rajappa Iyer
mridangist Palakkad Mani Iyer
mridangist Palghat Raghu
mridangist Umayalpuram Sivaraman
mridangist Trichy Sankaran
composer/vocalist Papanasam Sivan
violinist T N Krishnan
composer/violinist Lalgudi G Jayaraman
vocalist K V Narayanaswamy
composer/vocalist Maharajapuram Santhanam
violinist M S Gopalakrishnan
vocalist Sanjay Subrahmaniam
vocalist Radha Ramji
vocalist Sowmya
[edit]
Other famous people
Sir C. P.Ramaswami Iyer the devan of Travancore.
Jana Krishnamurthi Ex-President of the BJP & Former Union Law Minister.
Subramanium Swamy, Lawyer, Academician, Economist, Politician, President of the Janata Party.
Gurumurthy RSS Intellectual
Lakshmi Sehgal, a Presidential Canditate and former head of INA women command.
Swaminathan S Anklesaria Aiyar Economist and writer of Swaminomics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguished_Iyers<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Out of those not even 5% can pass for a European, go look at their pictures, even the Iyer's in the entertainment industry (who are mostly fair just like the rest of the Indian actors/actresses) such as Sondarya, Trisha or Kamal Hassan can't pass for a European.
As for you being half white, well don't worry even if you are you will be accepted as Hindu by many Hindus but just be sure to stop telling us that only Indians can be Hindus cuz u urself might be mixed up with goras (well it's not like you already are, atleast in the mindset with stormfront types). As for you quoting from Manu Smriti, well I can quote from the Vedas, I already did before but you haven't replied cuz it totally explodes your mythology of only those with pure Indian blood being Hindus. Don't just say that the Vedas are divinely revealed, learn to also read them once in a while.
I am merely pointing out that a lot of Tamil Brahmanas are very fair and can pass for a European. This is fact. I don't the know exact percentage.
I am only reporting what I have seen.
---
No tambram can pass for a nordic
5% can pass for greeks
55% can pass for north Indians
40% can pass as tamil OBC-Dwijas
In Delhi, the locals call tambrams kallus
In Delhi, many tambram house wives are shocked that the
'low caste' domestic is much fairer than them
--
The big question is how come there should even be a single fair skinned man in the middle of Tamil Nadu?
--
Migration from north India
----
What does this indicate?
To me this indicates some kind of white mixture. This is the unfortunate truth!
<b>I say unfortunate because I don't want to find out that I am half-white!</b>
Unless someone here can point out some clear evidence otherwise, this is what I have to conclude.
---
If you read the DNA thread, you will find out that the
genetic roots of Europeans lie in Kashmir and Punjab
---
I have read some passages in the Ramayana, Puranas etc... which seem to indicate that at least some of the original Brahmanas were white. And one - Rishi Kapila - appears to have been blond.
--
Are you aware that Krishna means black
Draupadi is described as black
--
Guys lets take it easy a bit on the skin color. When it comes to Indians, skin color is really not a caste thing but is based on climate and how much time is spent in the sun. For instance I know a couple indians who have moved over to north america, in Canada/North USA, who have actually become very light skinned when previously they were of darker appearance. I know brahmin family where one brother is dark skinned and the other is fairly light skinned. as far as dalits one ive seen who is very light skinned is sushil kumar shinde
You guys are ignoring one important fact. British men in India were having fun with females in India for a long time and condoms were not popular that time. Of course, the offsprings would carry some of those firangi genes. British never dealt with very low class people. They interacted only with elites to middle class.
Hopefully, this would explain '1' blond brahmin or '1' blond jain you met so far and not a group of fair skinned people forming a community.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As for you quoting from Manu Smriti, well I can quote from the Vedas, I already did before but you haven't replied cuz it totally explodes your mythology of only those with pure Indian blood being Hindus.
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The more I read about Indian history, the more it appears you are right.
There have always been Orthodox Hindus and Heterodox Hindus in India.
Both stemming from a common Vedic platform.
Orthodox Hinduism developed in the states of Kuru, Panchala, Kasi and Kosala, basically the "Madhyadesha" region.
The rest of the regions were Heterodox.
Only Orthodox Hindus have believed in the rigid caste system represented by Manu Smrti.
It appears the Orthodox Hindus in order to preserve their identity decided to take this route.
The Heterodox Hindus have always been open to absorbing new comers.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't just say that the Vedas are divinely revealed, learn to also read them once in a while.
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OK this is the real big issue now.
If the Vedas are nothing but poems or ballads composed by some guy sitting under a tree, then but what is the use of wasting time studying it?
Might as well read Wordsworth.
At least the Vedic Samhita has to be of divine origin otherwise it is all worthless trash.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->OK this is the real big issue now.
If the Vedas are nothing but poems or ballads composed by some guy sitting under a tree, then but what is the use of wasting time studying it?
Might as well read Wordsworth.
At least the Vedic Samhita has to be of divine origin otherwise it is all worthless trash.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I said nothing about them being of human origin, I said don't just say that they have a divine origin but also read them once in a while to learn what they have to say, otherwise there is no use, placing them on a pedestal but happily ignoring them indicates a stupid mindset. If we say that a book is divinely revealed then we also read it to see what God has to say to us, we don't just happily pick and choose what we want (which both the Orthodox types and Arya Samajists appear to do).
The issue of the Orthodox rising from a Vedic platform has no bearing on the issue at hand, as long as they ignore the Vedas but follow later day smritis (all the while saying that the Vedas are the final authority) when it comes to issues of race they have no locus standi. I am quite explicit about my stand, if a smriti is in contradiction with a Vedic injunction then the Vedic injunction has to prevail, there are no ifs and buts.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->DMK ends Brahmin dominance in TN temples]Alaphia Zoyab
Sunday, June 11, 2006 (Chennai):
<b>Brahmin-bashing can never be politically wrong in Tamil Nadu.</b>
One of the first things the DMK government did after coming to power was to ensure that priesthood in temples was no longer the preserve of Brahmins alone. Now caste is no longer a barrier to become a priest leaving the orthodox in Tamil Nadu silently fuming once again.
From now onwards, anybody who undergoes training in the holy texts can become a priest.
"Only people trained in *Agama* rules and who know Vedas and Sanskrit, if at all the *poojas* are performed in Sanskrit, can go inside and do *poojas*. There is nothing wrong in it," said TKS Elangovan, organising secretary, DMK.
"We have got references and evidences from history that we are all children of God and anybody can become a priest and worship God if he knows the method," said an Amarnath historian.
*Ancient texts*
But it has outraged the purists. And at the centre of this debate on the caste barrier are ancient texts called the *Agamas*.
How a temple should be built, how it should be governed and who should perform the *poojas* all of that is supposed to be contained in these sacred texts called *Agamas*.
Now critics of the government believe that the government hasn't answered any long felt need by allowing non-Brahmins to perform the *poojas*.
They believe it has ended up rejecting these sacred texts, the very basis on which such temples are built.
"It is generally thought that only Brahmins are allowed inside the temple,"said MA Venkatakrishnan, professor of Vaishnavism.
"I am also a Brahmin. I have also studied so many texts and all - *Vedas, Agamas*. Because I know *Agamas* I cannot go inside the sanctum sanctorum,"he said.
"Most of the people now in the government are atheists and so they don't have any faith in the religious traditions and so they are doing all these things but ultimately the judiciary is the only last refuge for us," he said.
*Anti-Brahmin movement*
The Dravidian movement's success has its origins in the anti-Brahmin movement launched in the first part of the 20th century.
<b>One century on, the DMK continues to stoke those feelings. But the move is well timed. Thanks to reservation, social justice has returned to the centrestage of political debate.</b>
But priesthood is not a very lucrative career and many are wallowing in poverty, so to neutral observers, this move is empty posturing.
"I cannot understand why the government is worried about this issue when there are issues like Dalits not being allowed to become Panchayat chairman, reserved categories are not fulfilled," said VR Anil Kumar, Sanskrit researcher.
There are already many non-Brahmin priests, but with this order, they can now perform *poojas* in any temple, big and small.
And irrespective of what any holy text might have prescribed, the DMK has written its own scriptures.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Anti-Brahmanism should stop!</b>
June 15, 2006
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet, Brahmins and other upper castes have played an invaluable role in Indian history, as Dr Bindeshwar Pathak, the founder of the Sulabh Shauchalaya Movement remarks: 'Society sustained the Brahmins and other upper castes earlier, who upheld the Hindu scriptures and Hindu culture. Today Hinduism is on the decline day-by-day. There is a lack of ancient knowledge. No political party has objected to reservation thanks to vote-bank politics. People have a very short memory. They have forgotten the contribution made by Brahmins to our society.'
And who says that Brahmins and other upper castes are anti-Dalits. Some of India's top avatars, saints and gurus were of low caste and are still worshipped today by all upper castes. Valmiki, the composer of the Ramayana, was a fisherman; Ved Vyasa, the epic poet of the Mahabharata, which also contains the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible of Future Humanity, was the son of a fisherwoman; Krishna was from the shepherd's caste. And are not today's Amritanandamayi or Satya Sai Baba of low caste birth? Don't they have millions of Indians, many of them from upper castes, bowing down to them?
Anti-Brahmanism has to be stopped!
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<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Jun 21 2006, 10:44 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Jun 21 2006, 10:44 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->dravidianist are just morons of highest order.
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Attitudes like this don't help the situation. Brahmins have lived in Tamil Nadu for ages. They have failed to integrate with the Tamil culture 100%.Their leaders have failed to provide the guidance as to how the community could be benefitted in the changing times. They have closed their eyes to the realities of the day and the need to change with times. It is time that the leaders come off from their pedestals and figure out how well they can help the remnants of the Brahmin community survive as the future indeed looks bleak for them. The rich can take care of themselves. The smart ones have left, leaving behind a dredge that is incapable of fending for itself, and probably getting more reactionary/self pitying by the day.
It is the ultimate sad situation, that after all that happened in the Kanchi Mutt, there was not one non Brahmin citizen of Kanchi prepared to make a favourable comment. Such is the price of exclusive arrogance.
This time around, Brahmins might be willing to mix with the other castes. But as reality now shows, they others don't want us.
Even though we go to the same temples and pray to the same God, why is it that we have to consider ourselves so different to exclusion of our fellow Hindus. No point breast beating about the sad fate of temple properties in Tamil Nadu. Till such time that the other Hindu communities feel the same sense of anguish, nothing can be done.
Even though we speak Tamil at home, why should we not have a majority of the songs in Tamil during the Carnatic concerts? What is wrong with Tamil prayers? It is things like this which are key to identity as a culture. No amount of Ponniyin Selvan will make up for the day to day sense of aloofness.
It would have been so much better if the Brahmins had initiated the process of incorporating other castes in the priestdom. We might not have directly inflicted many of the injustices of the past, but we do have a moral responsibility for make the code inflexible and being on top of that heap!
Take the initiative to reform, or reap what our ancestors sowed.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Take the initiative to reform, or reap what our ancestors sowed.
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My ancestors have not sowed anything wrong. If your, let us know.
What Dravidnist have done to Brahmin community is not only pathetic but surprisingly they still blame Brahmins and have no regret and there is no shortage of their cheer leaders in current century.
After ethnic cleansing of Brahmins from Tamil Nadu, you are still blaming Brahmins.
Is this a battle of linguist superiority or something else?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It is the ultimate sad situation, that after all that happened in the Kanchi Mutt, there was not one non Brahmin citizen of Kanchi prepared to make a favourable comment. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Phantom (admins, name check!!): Does that one Dalit who killed himself protesting the arrest of seer count ?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The smart ones have left, leaving behind a dredge that is incapable of fending for itself, and probably getting more reactionary/self pitying by the day.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How reactionary are they getting? What does the word "reactionary" mean in this context? Are they banning people from entering temples? What are they doing, that derserves that epithet?
<!--QuoteBegin-vishwas+Jun 25 2006, 01:34 PM-->QUOTE(vishwas @ Jun 25 2006, 01:34 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The smart ones have left, leaving behind a dredge that is incapable of fending for itself, and probably getting more reactionary/self pitying by the day.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How reactionary are they getting? What does the word "reactionary" mean in this context? Are they banning people from entering temples? What are they doing, that derserves that epithet?
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Personally, I think it is time that we reflect and examine ourselves in the context of the forthcoming century. The thread has a lot of historical contexts to explain the current. But what is missing is the positive reality of the Tamil brahmin life and livelihood in Tamil Nadu.
One might want to remember the rule of cause and effect. Nothing happens without a reason. Even though all of us have been the object of the vilest of abuses from the DK group, has any of us ever questioned that there may be validity to it. What I regret is that rejection to be accepted as part of the Tamil community.Thevast majority of Tamil speakers, honestly believe that our loyalty is to a vague North, which exists only in our imagination.
Back to the term 'reactionary'. The poor Brahmins, caught in the vice of acute discrimination, look upon to their remembered glories and the Kanchi Mutt, neither one of which will be able to alleviate their condition. The Kanch Mutt, especially with the previous leader, had a golden opportunity in 1967, when Annadurai was elected. He was from Kanchi and the Mutt lost an opportunity to pay respects to the favourite son. Just the reverse, had the same CNA been a brahmin, would the Mutt have behaved differently? I leave the reader to answer the question as befitting her/his view.
All I am saying, is that, being rigid and self justifying, we are digging the hole deeper. And increasingly, judging by the way North Indian politics is going, we might not have that avenue as welcoming to us as before.
One additional point, I may as well bring up. The ones who have emigrated, especially abroad, are among the most reactionary (yes I would like to use the word again). After all, they do not have face they day to day life hinderances.
Make peace with your fellow Tamil Hindus and try to get on with it. Instead of whining that an old way of life is dying. Maybe it was based on wrongness of universal inequality in the first place. This would not play in the 21st century.
If we are really all that smart, it will be to negotiate reserved seats for the poor Brahmins.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Jun 25 2006, 12:32 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Jun 25 2006, 12:32 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Take the initiative to reform, or reap what our ancestors sowed.
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My ancestors have not sowed anything wrong. If your, let us know.
What Dravidnist have done to Brahmin community is not only pathetic but surprisingly they still blame Brahmins and have no regret and there is no shortage of their cheer leaders in current century.
After ethnic cleansing of Brahmins from Tamil Nadu, you are still blaming Brahmins.
Is this a battle of linguist superiority or something else?
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I can only speak for myself. I used to go to Kerala during my summer vacations as a kid in the 1950s. When we (my grandfather with me) met certain people on the street, they used to stay a few feet away from us, close their mouth and address us. Certain other groups used to go uleleleing on seeing our approach. I never knew the significance of these gestures till long after I had grown up. I felt very ashamed that even unknowingly I was a party to an act of denial of human dignity. Maybe in Tamil Nadu things were different. Can't say.
Anecdotal evidence does not make basis for sweeping generalizations. One can always choose a sample that is totally inadequate for such generalizations and the chosen sample can always be selected (among tons of many others that show otherwise) to reach to and confirm the intended conclusion. Please show the evidence and argue rationally and reasonably. Thanks. Not to downplay or condone any such stupid events, FWIW.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I can only speak for myself. I used to go to Kerala during my summer vacations as a kid in the 1950s. When we (my grandfather with me) met certain people on the street, they used to stay a few feet away from us, close their mouth and address us. Certain other groups used to go uleleleing on seeing our approach. I never knew the significance of these gestures till long after I had grown up. I felt very ashamed that even unknowingly I was a party to an act of denial of human dignity. Maybe in Tamil Nadu things were different. Can't say.
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Absolutely! I agree. It is not my intention to go along that road. I was trying to answer a question without inciting rancour.
My pet peeve is that Tambrams have played their politics badly. I hope that is evident in between my lines.
We have had the benefit of close contact with politicians of all flavours. I lose count of those who claim that they know and work with many of the top leaders of Tamil Nadu. Access to the top line politicos is not our problem. It looks like we have failed to leverage the familiarity and friendship to protect and nurture our community.
Many of these politicians' kin have married into brahmins, which should mean something. To give an example, in 1973 when the Asians were kicked out of Uganda, the Aga Khan leveraged his friendship with Pierre Trudeau to open Canada's doors for non whites for the first time. Was that not revolutionary and a great achievement. Since then all other communities have also found place in Canada.
Taking the brahmins out of the equations might mean opening up of more opportunities for the majority of Tamils. Because of this, we need to find a way to cope with the situation and get on with life.
Tamil Nadu will flourish, and deep in our hearts, we would llike to be part of it. Inspite of such an animosity at my community, I cannot but have a pang of pride at the current trend where for the first time in 40 years, Chennai is on the forefront of Indian progress.
By and large, the Tambrams have worked with their nose to the grindstone, and done well in one place or the other. I suspect, though I am not sure of this, our average income and well being is in a respectable above party range. GSub has given us elaborate details of our ability to get on and prosper.
But I repeat, the high profile brahmins, have not served their community to its benefit. Commenting on current events, I can only give an example of the recent editorials of Tughlak & Kalki. In the light of the Sri Lankan army's atrocities committed on Tamils, we get a pious lecture on the behaviour of the Tamil Tigers. That won't wash with the Tamil community.
It betrays such an insensitivity to the Tamils. It is on such occassions, if Kalki/Tughlak cannot feel the pang of kinship, they better shut up. To do so otherwise, is a betrayal to your brethren (brahmins and others) who are already disadvantaged, and to whom you are bringing on more misery from your ivory towers.
Blood is thicker than water. Let us show that we are good Tamils too, and keep in sync with majority of the Tamil pulse. Is it so difficult to understand this?
I apologize to be so dramatic, but I see these blatant political & social insensitivity being committed so repeatedly ever so many years; we don't seem to learn; the result being that we do not have any friends or well wishers in Tamil Nadu. This isolation is not good for us.
Why are we not more politically astute? ?
<!--QuoteBegin-k.ram+Jun 25 2006, 06:19 PM-->QUOTE(k.ram @ Jun 25 2006, 06:19 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Anecdotal evidence does not make basis for sweeping generalizations. One can always choose a sample that is totally inadequate for such generalizations and the chosen sample can always be selected (among tons of many others that show otherwise) to reach to and confirm the intended conclusion. Please show the evidence and argue rationally and reasonably. Thanks. Not to downplay or condone any such stupid events, FWIW.
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I can only speak for myself. I used to go to Kerala during my summer vacations as a kid in the 1950s. When we (my grandfather with me) met certain people on the street, they used to stay a few feet away from us, close their mouth and address us. Certain other groups used to go uleleleing on seeing our approach. I never knew the significance of these gestures till long after I had grown up. I felt very ashamed that even unknowingly I was a party to an act of denial of human dignity. Maybe in Tamil Nadu things were different. Can't say.
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