<!--QuoteBegin-itstarunsturn+Jul 2 2006, 09:42 AM-->QUOTE(itstarunsturn @ Jul 2 2006, 09:42 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Your point is that, Brahmins must be trampled and kept underfoot, for the welfare of the rest of the world. It is not absolute power that you are worried about, it is <i>mere equality.</i><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The power of Brahimn is invincible atleast for a long time to come.Their zeal ,hardwork
,dedication ,background along with possible natural intelligence would ensure that even if the whole of India converts to another religion,their descendants would still remain on the top.
[right][snapback]53085[/snapback][/right]
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In what way does your comment rebut my quote? What was the point of your latest post?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Absolute power is something to be afraid of, irrespective of <b>caste, creed or religion</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have read in this forum long ago about land of upper castes being forcibly taken away by Naxalites in Bihar.
O.K let me tell you about what I read in the Sunday edition of a vernacular daily
after the Lakshmanpur Bate massacre in Bihar in which some 52 persons were killed,
even minors being not spared.
Both sides were gulity of murders, women and children included.
Actually before independance and even after that it is said that the situation was so bad in some areas,that after marraige lower caste women were forced to serve in th houses of landlord for a few days.'Serve' is the word that I read.Dunno what it means.
You can draw your own conclusions.
That gave birth to the naxalite movement.Those irrational fools were so gassed up with hate that they are said to have killed even a not so large landowning landlord,Ranbir.Using that as ad hominem the landlords whipped up passions and formed the private army,Ranbir Sena.
And the cycle of violence continues unabated even though Bihar is one of the most rich areas in the country from the point of view of natural resources.
That is the reason why I said absolute power is not in anybody's interest.
<!--QuoteBegin-vishwas+Jul 2 2006, 09:51 AM-->QUOTE(vishwas @ Jul 2 2006, 09:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-itstarunsturn+Jul 2 2006, 09:42 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(itstarunsturn @ Jul 2 2006, 09:42 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Your point is that, Brahmins must be trampled and kept underfoot, for the welfare of the rest of the world. It is not absolute power that you are worried about, it is <i>mere equality.</i><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The power of Brahimn is invincible atleast for a long time to come.Their zeal ,hardwork
,dedication ,background along with possible natural intelligence would ensure that even if the whole of India converts to another religion,their descendants would still remain on the top.
[right][snapback]53085[/snapback][/right]
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In what way does your comment rebut my quote? What was the point of your latest post?
[right][snapback]53086[/snapback][/right]
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I was referring to them being kept underfoot and trampling them,an impossible scenario.
Yes some states like U.P have seen the misery of Brahmins as had been ponted out by Francois Gautier, but I think population of Brahmins along with Thakurs is above average in those states.
Those Brahmins are said to have been bickering with Thakurs in those states before Mandal according to a report 'The resurgent Brahimn' in the weekly magazine 'The Week'(from my memory),So they must have had some dominant economic muscle
or demographic muscle.I may be wrong here.You may check out the facts for yourself.
[EDITED ]
-Don't copy other forum discussion here.
Till you don't change your Handle/User-Id, your post are queued.
Moderator
I condemned casteism of low castes in this post using Hinduwoman's quotes ,this post gets deleted and guess what I get slandered as being supportive of low caste casteism in the very next post.
From what I guess this is not a free forum.
I bow out without any malice towards anyone.
So you believe in discrimination. You are promoting casteism in every sentence you are writing.
What Yadavs are doing in UP and Bihar is not wrong or what OBC or Dalit are doing TN is not wrong?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually before independance and even after that it is said that the situation was so bad in some areas,that after marraige lower caste women were forced to serve in th houses of landlord for a few days.'Serve' is the word that I read.Dunno what it means.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is impossible to argue like this. Evidence, please?
Also, did you say "landlord"? So, you have no idea if it is Brahmin at all?
Also, is it possible that this allegation was borrowed from a similar situation in European feudal culture: Droit de seigneur?
No offence, Tarun. But, you cannot post extracts from other fora. A single post from another forum is a snapshot of soemone's expressed view in the long flow off coversation. How can one treat that view as authoritative on another forum?
On this forum as well as anywhere else, we question each other's assumptions as part of the discussion. Now, if you have something to say, say it - and defend that opinion when we challenge you. Don't publish extracts from other fora as if they were authoritative judicial verdicts.
<!--QuoteBegin-vishwas+Jul 2 2006, 10:46 AM-->QUOTE(vishwas @ Jul 2 2006, 10:46 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually before independance and even after that it is said that the situation was so bad in some areas,that after marraige lower caste women were forced to serve in th houses of landlord for a few days.'Serve' is the word that I read.Dunno what it means.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is impossible to argue like this. Evidence, please?
Also, did you say "landlord"? So, you have no idea if it is Brahmin at all?
Also, is it possible that this allegation was borrowed from a similar situation in European feudal culture: Droit de seigneur?
[right][snapback]53091[/snapback][/right]
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As I said earlier, I do not have that booklet which comes with the Sunday edition of 'Eenadu' daily in Telugu.With the extensive network the members of this forum are likely to have, you may find out that edition by sorting out Sunday editions that have come after the date of Lakshmanpur Bate massacre.(from any old library or from anywhere else).
And as for as 'the resurgent Brahmin' article is concerned, you can check that out
by sorting 'The Week' editions right from 2000 onwards until the next 2 or 3 years.
As far as 'droit de signeur' is concerned, it existed during late Satanvahana period
in Andhra.(written in Kamasutra)May be those Satavahanas got that idea from the Romans with whom they traded extensively.Who knows?Zero was known to both Hindus and Mayans .Does not mean we can say conclusively Mayans knew it from Hindus or vice versa.Both could have got that idea independantly.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gus+-->QUOTE(Gus)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Reservation needs reform and gradually the formerly oppressed and under priviledged should be weaned away from reservation.......BUT lord knows how some of the under priviledged communities have been oppressed in the past by denying education and in cases slavery...bonded landless laborers working like that for generations...God forbid if such communities get an extra hand...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Kamandaka's Nitisara in the first half of the 8th century was primarily based on Kautilya's Arthashastra and was influenced by the violence in the Mahabharata, as he justified both open fighting when the king is powerful and treacherous fighting when he is at a disadvantage. Katyayana, like Kamandaka, accepted the tradition of the king's divinity, although he argued that this should make ruling justly a duty. Katyayana followed Narada's four modes of judicial decisions as the dharma of moral law when the defendant confesses, judicial proof when the judge decides, popular custom when tradition rules, and royal edict when the king decides. Crimes of violence were distinguished from the deception of theft. Laws prevented the accumulated interest on debts from exceeding the principal. Brahmins were still exempt from capital punishment and confiscation of property, and most laws differed according to one's caste.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is from the site that was branded missionary propaganda by our moderators.
Looked close at the content of the site and found the following discrepancy.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Evidence indicates that Thomas also traveled to Malabar about 52 CE and established Syrian churches on the west coast before crossing to preach on the east coast around Madras, where he was opposed and killed in 68.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thomas was said to have been killed by mistake according to Marco Polo's account.
So we may consider valid points but must not take all the content in its entirity for truth.
Caution is advised but I do not think we need to brush aside the content in its entirity.
So, go ahead and substantiate your comments about the Satavahana era when, according to you, upper castes were supposed to have exercised the "right of the first night" with lower caste brides, before they could return to their husbands.
Also, make sure that your comments include the Brahmins into the issue, to keep it relevant to this thread.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But according to the customs of some countries there are facilities for kings to make love to the wives of other men. Thus in the country of the Andhras 3 the newly married daughters of the people thereof enter the king's harem with some presents on the tenth day of their marriage, and having been enjoyed by the king are then dismissed. In the country of the Vatsagulmas 4 the wives of the chief ministers approach the king at night to serve him. In the country of the Vaidarbhas 5 the beautiful wives of the inhabitants pass a month in the king's harem under the pretence of affection for the king. In the country of the Aparatakas 6 the people gave their beautiful wives as presents to the ministers and the kings. And lastly in the country of the Saurashtras 7 the women of the city and the country enter the royal harem for the king's pleasure either together or separately.
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The exact date of the reign of these kings is not known. It is supposed to have been about the beginning of the Christian era.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Tarun+Jul 3 2006, 05:35 PM-->QUOTE(Tarun @ Jul 3 2006, 05:35 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But according to the customs of some countries there are facilities for kings to make love to the wives of other men. Thus in the country of the Andhras 3 the newly married daughters of the people thereof enter the king's harem with some presents on the tenth day of their marriage, and having been enjoyed by the king are then dismissed. In the country of the Vatsagulmas 4 the wives of the chief ministers approach the king at night to serve him. In the country of the Vaidarbhas 5 the beautiful wives of the inhabitants pass a month in the king's harem under the pretence of affection for the king. In the country of the Aparatakas 6 the people gave their beautiful wives as presents to the ministers and the kings. And lastly in the country of the Saurashtras 7 the women of the city and the country enter the royal harem for the king's pleasure either together or separately.
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The problem with the above quote, Tarun, is that it speaks of relations between a king and his subjects. Nowhere does it mention that high-caste men in general have the 'right of the first night' with lower-caste women.
So, the conclusions about caste that you have drawn earlier are unfounded.
Kings and rulers have done many things, to blame caste for that is to stretch logic beyond breaking point.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Nowhere does it mention that high-caste men in general have the 'right of the first night' with lower-caste women<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
vishwas, Tarun is confused with Irish/anglo-saxon. Nawab or Arabia Harem with Indic culture.
Some people are not well read but quote what missionaries preach them; missionaries refer to their own culture.
Have you seen âBrave Heartâ it will give you some idea of Anglo-Saxon culture.
Nowhere in Vedic religion or belief this is referred practice or encouraged.
Tarun first read Vedic text and then debate or quote.
Kamasutra is not a religious or cultural text. I am not sure whether you are Hindu. If you are, does your family recite Kamasutra at home or you call priest to recite at home. Or your parents teach leasson to everyone at home as a cultural or Sanskara.
First learn to differentiate between Vedic or religious text and novel of ancient era.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The exact date of the reign of these kings is not known. It is supposed to have been about the beginning of the Christian era.
Satavahanas ruled from 200 B.C to around 200 A.D.
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Brahmins are the glue that binds Bharat.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not just Brahmanas, but other allied North Indian Aryan castes are the glue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*
lol...India has not broken up because all communities feel it would work. The moment the larger population of any region feel like it won't work,ep seratism would rise (and JUSTIFIED in my opinion).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wanted to answer this but forgot,so came back.
As far as Brahmins being glue true to a certain extant but not completely true.
How did the Mauryan Empire collapse with Buddhism as state religion ,how did the Gupta Empire collapse even with Brahmanism receiving generous state patronage.How did the Roman Empire collapse inspite of having the most scaremongering metaphysics.
So long as new sources of energy and transport are available along with deep commitment to one country ,India will continue to be one.
And I think India should remain one even if there are troubles here and there.People have to adjust.It is not that you only share the joys and jumpoff as soon as you 'feel' that the boat is sinking.We do share a much more common cuture than others.This is what I feel.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem with the above quote, Tarun, is that it speaks of relations between a king and his subjects. Nowhere does it mention that high-caste men in general have the 'right of the first night' with lower-caste women.
So, the conclusions about caste that you have drawn earlier are unfounded.
Kings and rulers have done many things, to blame caste for that is to stretch logic beyond breaking point.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Satavahans are supposed to have descended from a mix of aboriginal Nagas as well as Brahmins.
The origin legend of their first king seems to have a parallel with the origin of kings who constructed Khajuraho temples.The only difference is you have the moon god in place of Serpent king god ,in case of Khajuraho kings.
I would also like to add that though I was not discriminated,I was asked my caste sometimes by my teachers as well fellow classmates.
Most of those who seeked my caste were Brahmins who were rightly or wrongly quite proud of vegetarianism.
I do feel sorry to eat non-veg food.Reduced that by a lot of amount but was not able to give up totally.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->, to blame caste for that is to stretch logic beyond breaking point.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Caste though might not have directly caused evil things,it does promote a sense of superiority by descent and cause arrogance when ingrained firmly.
Tell me why else is there a Manusmriti verse(might not have been widely practiced in practice because of desa kaala maana factors) that says after killing a Shudra a Brahmin can do atonement that is similiar to atonement performed after killing owl etc??
To me it seems 'you kill animals because they are less than humans and for us who are above you you are like animals'.
Buddhism on the other hand placed all humns on the same plane.To tell that
Brahmins are totally free of any guilt in structuring a system based on ritual purity
that places them above all is not fair(It is another matter that this concept would have saved many lives by preventing outbreak of epidemics)
We Shudras are guilty no doubt in trying to blindly mimic Brahmins as far as possible knowingly or unknowingly(for reasons of greed/assuaging the urge for self esteem/sincere belief that it is divinely ordained so) and causing misery to those below us.But to say that Brahmins are totally above guilt is not fair.
Would it not be a better idea to ignore messages/discussion threads that are completely biased and not supported by facts ? Why try to fix the knowledge gap or provide information on History to someone who prefers to twist all the facts with the sole aim of blaming Brahmins for all the ills on the earth ( recent discussion thread around " Tarun" ..) the quotes and writings of "Tarun" are mostly irrelevant to this discussion forum.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+-->QUOTE(Mudy)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Nowhere in Vedic religion or belief this is referred practice or encouraged.
Tarun first read Vedic text and then debate or quote.
Kamasutra is not a religious or cultural text. I am not sure whether you are Hindu. If you are, does your family recite Kamasutra at home or you call priest to recite at home. Or your parents teach leasson to everyone at home as a cultural or Sanskara.
First learn to differentiate between Vedic or religious text and novel of ancient era. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What sort of a remark is this.I have known the Bhagavad Gita long before Kamasutra.Kamasutra is a novel read by the Kshatriya elite.That was my point.
And though Brahmin sages like Parashuram put an end to Kshatriya arrogance,
it does not mean that the <i>Dwija</i> castes would always be on a collision course and not in collusion route even after manipulative Kshatriya caste weakened Brahmins by making them feed just on vegetarian diet ,even milk of cow notwithstanding.
Do you really expect an ordinary Hindu to know all that is present in those voluminous 4 Vedas (with contradictions of course) .All that I know is 'kitchen religion' and some puja.Thats all.
As for he woord 'Sanskara', part of it is taught and part of it is by birth.Isn't it?
I do not like 'part due to birth' blah blah blah!!!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->A biased person can only observe what they want to observe ! <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The intelligent king, Bhojaraj established the language of Sanskrit in three varnas - the brahmanas, kshatriyas and vaisyas - and for the shudras he established prakrita-bhasha, the ordinary language spoken by common men. After ruling his kingdom for 50 years, he went to the heavenly planet. The moral laws established by him were honored even by the demigods. The arya-varta, the pious land is situated between Vindhyacala and Himacala or the mountains known as Vindhya and Himalaya. The Aryans reside there, but varna-sankaras reside on the lower part of Vindhya. The musalman people were kept on the other side of the river Sindhu. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
{EDITED - No missionary propoganda here}<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
O.K the quotes from the other site can be dubious as is evinced by the description of Saint Thomas episode.But this quote is supposedly taken from the Bhavishya Purana.I do not have that book.Is his quote wrong or is Bhavishya Purana not an authentic Purana amongst the supposedly authentic 18 Maha Puranas??
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