08-29-2008, 03:32 PM (This post was last modified: 08-29-2008, 03:37 PM by Bodhi.)
Naresh Ji,
What you quoted from Churchill is accurate. But question is, was Churchill himself accurate in stating that the Muslims made up of 75% of undevided Indian troops?
I guess he was either mistaken (unlikely) as he displayed on other occasions, or he was tricking someone for something; or just misstated the fact incorrectly (possible).
(Maybe he meant the 75% of troops recruited for WW-II from India were Moslem -- that would be more accurate.)
During WWII, British recruited mostly from areas which later became Pakistan, and therefore certainly in the last decade of British Raj, the Moslems in army may have grown rather rapidly.... but 75% seems like an exaggeration. If that were the case Pakistan Army would not have been only 1/3 to 1/4 of total army immediately after partition...
Immediately after partition, the size of Indian Army and that of Pakistani Army, is a matter of records. We also have enough information on Muslims who decided to continue in Indian Army after partition, especially officers.
Even the article by Pakistani writer (link posted by Pandyan) says: "Muslims as a whole constituted a quarter of the Indian Army as of 1947"
About Police -- even in UP & Bihar, Musalman content of british police was always grossly larger and out of proportion of the general moslem population of those provinces, and for good purpose!
<!--QuoteBegin-Pandyan+Aug 29 2008, 02:25 AM-->QUOTE(Pandyan @ Aug 29 2008, 02:25 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->See Annexure B. Muslim percentage decreases from 1940. Would you have any sources for 3/4th figure?
http://www.defencejournal.com/sept99/martial-races.htm
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Pandyan, this I think is/was a Paki site. So take it for whatever it is. I still remember this site once trashing Vishnugupta. Their cheif editor was ex-armyman from Pak army. Some defence/military hawk on this forum might be able to shed some more light on this site.
Take facts from this site with few truckloads of salt.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But question is, was Churchill himself accurate in stating that the Muslims made up of 75% of undevided Indian troops?
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There's documented evidence of Churchill working directly with Jinnaha behind Atlee's and Mountbatten's back to prop up Jinnaha's land of pure. For a quy who said "<i>History will be kind to me for I intend to write it</i>", one can't take him at his face value.
08-30-2008, 02:48 AM (This post was last modified: 08-30-2008, 02:50 AM by Naresh.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Aug 29 2008, 04:40 PM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Aug 29 2008, 04:40 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pandyan, this I think is/was a Paki site. So take it for whatever it is. I still remember this site once trashing Vishnugupta. Their cheif editor was ex-armyman from Pak army. Some defence/military hawk on this forum might be able to shed some more light on this site.
Take facts from this site with few truckloads of salt.
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<b>and</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Aug 29 2008, 04:40 PM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Aug 29 2008, 04:40 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->There's documented evidence of Churchill working directly with Jinnaha behind Atlee's and Mountbatten's back to prop up Jinnaha's land of pure. For a quy who said "<i>History will be kind to me for I intend to write it</i>", one can't take him at his face value.
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<b>Viren Ji :</b>
It is possible that the Muslim Content of the Indian Army under British Rule was over 50%.
I would attribute it to the "Colonist" Policy of controlling the Majority by using the Minority in Administration, Bureaucracy and the Law Enforcement Agencies.
I will be sending you a P-Mail with the contents from :
<i>Seychelles receives military equipment from the Indian army</i>
APA - Victoria (Seychelles) The Indian High Commissioner to Seychelles Asit Kumar Nag on Thursday handed over to the Chief of Staff of the Seychelles People's Defence Forces (SPDF) Colonel Clifford Roseline workshop equipment for use by the country's coast guard.
The ceremony, which took place in New Port in the Seychellois capital, Victoria saw the presence of the Flag Officer Commanding the Indian Western Fleet, Rear Admiral Anil Chopra, and the commanding officers of two Indian naval vessels; INS Talwar and INS Godavari, which are presently on a goodwill mission to the country.
Colonel Roseline, who received the gifts, said that the visit of the vessels gives more impetus to the continuing defence cooperation that exists between the two countries and indicated that Seychelles has "special relations" with the Indian sub-continent.
Colonel Roseline added that such military cooperation have been further strengthened by the exchange of military delegations and by the help of Indian military experts who have trained military personnel of the SPDF following the signature of the technical and economic cooperation scheme between the two countries. He further indicated that the Indian army has on several occasions given military hardware to his forces.
Military cooperation between the Seychelles and India took place when Victoria sought the help of the Indian government to build the Seychelles Defence Academy in 1989. Since then, the Indian government has put military experts at the disposal of Seychelles in order to upgrade and restructure the SPDF.
Nareshji,
. It only proves that India is not sleepings as is normally thought of by a few members of this forum. Let us hope more such media coverage do get a mention in this forum in the future .
First, let's not take away some good work by His Excellency Nag, more power to him and we always welcome positive news.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It only proves that India is not sleepings a<b>s is normally thought of by a few members of this forum</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or we can be cheerleaders like you ravishji and
(i) completely turn a blind eye to over a dozen blasts cases unsolved in past 50+ months, or
(ii) put our blinkers on and ignore the assault on faith (Amarnath issue, Setu issue, arrest of Kanchi seer issue, proposed churches in Tirumala, vote-bank politics of divide and rule) or
(iii) sweep under the rug the cases of corruption and nepotism practiced by current government
So, either one has to have amazing power of telekinesis to read minds of what's "thought" by members here or be a water-carrier for the neta of the day and disapprove of our heaps of scorn on these netas.
We'll never know, will we?
Nareshji: Apologies, so your post just today. Will send you an email.
The shortfalls and weaknesses that you have pointed out are indeed very true. At the same time, we have to give credit to the party in power for the simple fact they are able to continue with the show. No system in the world is perfect and we need to take balance view of the problems facing the nation.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>US arms-makers gun for Indian weapons market </b>
Pioneer.com
Rahul Datta | New Delhi
Even as the US Congress debates the ratification of the India-US nuclear deal, the US arms manufacturing giants are gearing up to demand their pound of flesh in the $30 billion the Indian weapons procurement plans in the next five to seven years. Â
The US companies, hesitant to enter the Indian defence market till now, would now go all out to bag major contracts, including the "mother of all deals" for 126 fighter jets worth over Rs 45,000 crore. In fact, two US aviation giants - Lockheed Martin, which manufactures F-16s, and Boeing, manufacturing F-18 - are in the race for the deal along with Russia, France and Sweden.
Besides this lucrative deal, the US companies would also demand a foot in the contracts for missiles and radars for the Navy and Air Force. These two services are technology intensive and India is keen to acquire the state-of-the-art systems, which are capital intensive.
The US defence industry would lobby hard for these contracts when Defence Minister AK Antony holds delegation-level talks with his counterpart Robert Gates later on Tuesday. Now on a four-day visit to Washington, Antony would also meet Foreign Secretary Condoleeza Rice, besides visiting some industrial complexes.
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I was saying this for more than year, before election Shame of India, ManMohan Singh, will go for defense deal to pocket more money. I was on dot. Now we have to see how fast he signs deal. Lets see whether procedures are followed or Moron Singh go for without tender and inspection.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->we have to give credit to the party in power for the simple fact they are able to continue with the show<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the show continues. Who's paying for the ticket? What price?
[It is a known fact that USA has the best military hardware. In the last sixty years. Since the successive US policy makers have given Pakistan preference over India, we have so far been deprived of taking advantage of this state of art pieces of equipment. Now with the changed political scene, i.e. with the end of the Cold War we see the change in attitude.
Taking cuts in military deals is always apprehended and this is true for many of the countries. This disease has no political affiliation. We have heard of cuts in the Swedish artillery deal, cuts in the case of SU -30 deal and the most famous cuts in the aftermath of the Kargil action when BJP led coalition was in power.
Therefore, I feel that the likelihood of a possible cut should deprive the nation from obtaining the best of the military equipment that may be made available to it by any of the advanced nations. As mentioned above corruption in India has no political affiliation, so there is no point in waiting to go ahead with the deal, in which no talk of cuts will get mentioned in the media. Time and again, the guiding patrons of Pioneer, i.e. the Russian Federation has proved unreliable defence supplier. Today, since more than 70 percent of our defence equipment is of Russian origin we have no option but to continue dealing with them to get the spares. This is despite the fact that these have been serious breach of contract on the part of the Russian suppliers in the past. The most recent example is the delay in getting the aircraft carrier from Russia. In the larger national interest, despite allergic reaction suffered by Boudiji in respect of each and every action of the present Government, it will not be a wise decision to prevent the modernisation of the defence forces till such time that a Government controlled by Rajababu , Karatsahab and others come to occupy Delhi Durbar,
<b>Major general guilty of sexual misconduct</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Major General AK Lal, a former commander of the Leh-based 3 Infantry Division, faced a general court martial (GCM) in Bathinda after a previous inquiry found evidence against him. Captain Neha Rawat of the Corps of Signals had filed a complaint against Lal last September, alleging that he had misbehaved with her while conducting yoga classes at his residence. Lal is the senior-most officer in the armyâs history to be awarded such a sentence on charges sexual misconduct.
Maj Gen AK Lal faced a general court martial in Bathinda after a previous inquiry found evidence against him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the extreme climatic conditions in Leh, and in the national interest one should take lenient view of such matters.In case, the alligations are true given the circumstances, I think a milder action is called for.This will keep the moral of the force fighting fit.
Would welcome your valuable comments. Meanwhile, on a more serious matter here is a report from the Jane's
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The United States is preparing to deliver a USD170 million package of Harpoon anti-ship missiles to India, with the Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) timing the announcement of the potential sale to coincide with the start of a four-day visit to Washington, DC, by Indian Minister of Defence A K Antony on 9 September.
"The Government of India has requested a possible sale of 20 AGM-84L Harpoon Block II missiles and four ATM-84L Harpoon Block II exercise missiles," the DSCA announced, adding that the deal could proceed as a Foreign Military Sale.
Antony's trip to Washington, which came after the 45-member Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) approved a US proposal on 6 September to allow nuclear trade with New Delhi, has fuelled speculation that India will now place further orders for US military equipment and enhance its strategic co-operation with that country.
India is in advanced talks to acquire eight Boeing P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft for an estimated USD2.2 billion, as well as a range of equipment for its special forces (SF) and six additional Lockheed Martin-built C-130J-30 Hercules transport aircraft.
Washington is also pushing for a US company to be awarded India's USD10 billion contract for 126 multi-role combat fighters. Boeing, with the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and Lockheed Martin, with the F-16IN, are competing with Russian and European manufacturers for the deal.
US companies are also bidding to supply 197 light observation helicopters and 22 combat helicopters to the Indian Air Force and the Army Aviation Corps to replace ageing platforms: a contract worth more than USD1.5 billion.
In addition, Antony was expected to finalise negotiations on the long-awaited logistics support agreement - also known as the Access and Cross-Servicing Agreement - that permits the two militaries reciprocal use of facilities for maintenance, servicing, communications, refuelling and medical care.
Other accords awaiting closure include: the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement, which requires US defence equipment purchasers to ensure that equipment they supply to India is compatible with other US systems; and the End-User Verification Agreement, which permits spot checks by the US of its equipment deployed in India.
"The US is seeking closer defence co-operation with India because Delhi's strategic signature is becoming more visible in the Asian region due to its high economic growth and acknowledged military capability," Lieutenant General (rtd) Vijay Kapoor said.
The US, he added, was keen to invest militarily in India, which it believes can emerge as a counterweight to China's growing strength.
Ahead of Antony's visit, US officials hinted that Washington expected a 'payback' for helping India secure a waiver to conduct civil nuclear commerce from the NSG. David Mulford, US ambassador to India, said the civil nuclear relationship between the US and India would have a "knock-on effect" in terms of hi-tech and defence co-operation.
Since 2002 the US has sold India 12 Thales-Raytheon Systems Firefinder artillery-locating radars for USD142.4 million; the refurbished 16,900-ton Austin-class landing platform dock USS Trenton for USD50 million; and six surplus Sikorsky Sea King helicopters for USD39 million.
Earlier in 2008 India agreed a USD962 million deal for six C-130J-30 aircraft in SF configuration.
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the extreme climatic conditions in Leh, and in the national interest one should take lenient view of such matters.In case, the alligations are true given the circumstances, I think a milder action is called for.This will keep the moral of the force fighting fit.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am shocked what you are saying; I don't think you really mean that.
Discipline in army is most important, India is world most disciplined Army, this is same army when it marched towards Bangladesh, Gen Sam Maneksaw told his men, keep your hand inside pockets. And Army did. I am really proud Indian Army took very strong action against indiscipline among its men. Good example for others.
Moral is kept by Honor, Courage, Dignity, Discipline .
In the extreme climatic conditions in Leh, and in the national interest one should take lenient view of such matters.In case, the alligations are true given the circumstances, I think a milder action is called for.This will keep the moral of the force fighting fit.
Would welcome your valuable comments.
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<b>ravish Ji :</b>
I would indubitably disagree with you.
Major General AK Lal has been charged with misbehaviour which is an euphemism for sexual misconduct.
The commission of an Act of Sexual Misconduct must be Most Severely Punished so as to obviate any re-occurrence.
I do not understand how you consider a lenient view of such an offence from an Indian Army Member - be they a Soldier, NCO, Commissioned Officer even of âGeneralâ Rank - as keeping the moral of the force fighting fit.
I would rather say that it is an Act of Dereliction of not only Morals but also Morale of any Disciplined Organization in General and Indiaâs Armed Forces in Particular.
Therefore it must be absolutely and unequivocally condemned with all the force at oneâs command and the most sever punishment by meted out to Major General AK Lal who has not only proved himself to be a Moral Wretch but also a Bounder and Cad to Boot!
I share fully your concern for maintaining of discipline in the Armed Forces of the Union.However, just go through the facts of the case:-
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Major gen to be fired for sexual assault
TIMES NEWS NETWORK
New Delhi: Major General A K Lal, removed as commander of the strategicallylocated 3 Infantry Division at Leh in September 2007 after a woman officer accused him of âmisconductâ and âmisbehaviourâ, is likely to be dismissed from service soon.
This comes after the general court martial (GCM) against Major General Lal held him guilty of molesting the woman officer serving under him on the pretext of teaching her yoga and meditation in his bedroom and attempting to influence two witnesses in the case.
The sentence of dismissal by the GCM, headed by Lieutenant-Gen R S Sujlana, commander of the 10 Corps at Bhatinda, is however subject to confirmation by higher authorities, including Army chief General Deepak Kapoor.
Though general-rank officers have been court-martialled for financial bungling and other scams in the Army
in recent years, this is the first time that such a senior officer has faced a court martial for sexual harassment, as reported earlier by TOI.
Major General Lal, a mechanised infantry officer, has denied the allegations. His wife and daughter, too, had staunchly defended him earlier, accusing the woman officer of âimproper behaviourâ.
Major General Lal has the option of appealing against the verdict to higher authorities in the Army as well as seeking legal redress from the newly-established Armed Forces Tribunal. He, in fact, can fight the case right up to the Supreme Court.
The GCM against Major General Lal had begun last year after the court of inquiry (CoI), headed by 15 Corps commander Lieutenant-General A S Sekhon, had found him prima facie guilty of the charges levelled against him.
The case is yet another indicator of the fact that sexual harassment is now increasingly being reported in the predominantly-male environs of the armed forces, with over 15 such cases being recorded since January 2004.
Despite being inducted into the armed forces since the early-1990s, women constitute barely 2.5% to 7% of the officer cadre, serving in wings like engineering, ordnance, intelligence, signals, education, law, logistics and air traffic control. In IAF, they also fly helicopters and transport aircraft.
Overall, there are just about 1,100 women officers in Army out of a total of 35,377; 750 women out of 10,760 officers in IAF and 300 women out of 7,394 officers in Navy. Personnel below the officer rank comprise only men.
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On a close reading of the news item it will be observed that the incident occurred in the bedroom of the Divisional Commanderâs residence. This brings into question what had been the motive of the lady officer. It can perhaps be a trap to fix her Divisional Commander for some displeasure that he may have incurred of the lady in discharge of his official duties. This aspect needs to be probed further. You will agree that in the normal course of social interaction a Lady Junior Officer will not land up in the bed room of the GOC of a Division.This may perhaps be another case of misuse of the new legislation on the subject.
Now blame female officer. Same way people blame rape victim.
Army did full investigation and found Gen. Lal, of his misconduct. He should be kicked out from Army.
No excuse for Sr. Officer to abuse male or female officer.
Let me give you my personal experience, when I was in school we used to go to Bachelor officer mess/canteen for snacks and Campa cola/Seven up because it was cheap and next to my school wall. It never means that we wanted to get molested by bachelor officers. They are called Gentlemen, there is a reason.
Your logic is horrifying me. Army is different than other Government office where there is no discipline, rules are twisted and ignored based on connection, bribe and cover-up. Spare Indian Army .
This comes after the general court martial (GCM) against Major General Lal held him guilty of molesting the woman officer serving under him on the pretext of teaching her yoga and meditation in his bedroom and attempting to influence two witnesses in the case.
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<b>ravish Ji :</b>
The above was - for reasons only known to the Hindustan Times Editor and his team, which I am unable to fathom - does beg the following queries :
1. Why would the âYoga Classesâ be held in the Bedroom?
2. If they were held in the Bedroom then why did Captain Neha Rawat join such a Class?
3. If the General in question has been found guilty of attempting to influence two witnesses in the case then how is it that the two âwitnessâ did not stop the General from committing the Alleged Act of Sexual Misconduct?
It is surprising why Lieutenant-General A S Sekhon found Lieutenant-General A K Lal prima facie guilty of the charges levelled against him and also Lieutenant-Gen R S Sujlana held him guilty of molesting the woman officer as well as attempting to influence two witnesses in the case.
On the face of it, it does seem that Lieutenant-General A K Lal has been âfitted upâ.
However, if the two courts-Tribunals have investigated the points enumerated me then may be the finds do prove Lieutenant-General A K Lal guilty as charged.
One will therefore have to reserve judgement whilst Lieutenant-General A K Lal seeks redress from the other Avenues open to him.
Thus we must await the final Outcome in this case.
<b>Mudy Ji :</b>
In view of the two witnesses to the act one has to ask âHave the two courts-tribunals got to the bottom-crux of the matter?â
One will have to wait for higher Judicial Authorities to review the case.
