05-24-2005, 04:35 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->One great thing that i notice with the devotees is that in the temple they mainly talk about Krishna with very little of o others, while the people at the other big temples, i hear most people talk all stuff other (amway, H1Bs, green cards etc. ) than God.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. As for suggestions of "initiation" etc we just politely smile at any such suggestions. A long time ago, we discussed these things with the top person at the temple (a gent who happens to be black, incidentally) and he understood that we would not become "members" etc. That's it. He never asked anything like that, and accepts us for what we are. There are other subordinate types (mostly desis) who lack the standards of this person, who do chatter away with all sorts of assumptions. They have their reasons and their world around them, and like I said before, if they devote their lives to being devotees, that's what is most important to them.
If I may venture the suggestion, a lot of Yindoos need to ease up and accept such things - micro-variations in how other Yindoos choose to worship, live etc.
So ISKCON does not say they are Hindus except when talking to Hindus - HOW does that matter? If they worship Krishna and have the entire sequence of Incarnations posted all over their temples, and teach at least a folk version of the epics to people who have never heard of them, are they better or worse "Hindus" than someone who claims deep knowledge of all the original Sanskrit books, but cannot see that all people and other creatures are children of the same Creation? (No implied insults against anyone here - just a general statement!) Doesn't the basic teaching say that it doesn't matter HOW one worships - the fact that one worships or accepts a Supreme Power is evidence enough, and the Supreme Being, being supreme, is also smart enough to accept that? If one doesn't accept that basic teaching, and gets hung up on precise procedures and precise angles of viewing, isn't one losing sight of that basic principle?
What good is it to know all the books, but not see this 101-level fact? What the books REALLY advice is to NOT be distracted by the noise, and to focus on what really matters. The rest is procedural details to help retain focus - never to get distracted. If one learns from the books how to stay focused, that's great. But hey, knowing the books does not make one superior any more than a coaching camp makes one superior as a batsman - if you score fewer runs on average than the uncouth Sehwag-type, well... you ain't as good a batsman, regardless of who your coach was.
I look at who has effectively spread the epics of Hinduism around the world - and it seems to me that the ISKCON does a good job of that, at least as much as the "Scholars" who can't kick the s*** out of the RISA.
Now about "Kristos = Krsna = Krishna" Well, what's wrong with that? Again, look at where the ISKCON has been operating. I think this is brilliant strategy - to tell people that what they learned about Yesu Kristu (called Jesus Christ by the Roman imperialists who nailed him to the cross) as children is not invalid - they don't have to unlearn it. Its just a subset of the infinite Reality. If you think in those terms, you see why they also claim that "Shiva = Narayana" does not mean "Narayana = Shiva". The "=" sign just means "subset" or "superset" in this case.
So what if they believe that? I can find as many people who believe that Kali is the only idea of the Almighty that they recognize. Or Shiva. Or any number of other forms. Until "Hindus" learn to recognize that all are the same, we are condemned to infighting and fratricide. Which is a pity, because an all-accepting and peaceful path is open before us.
And the beauty of all that is, "all-accepting" applies to worship - it says nothing about accepting evil. So kicking musharraf in the musharraf is still perfectly acceptable.
<!--emo&:tv--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tv_feliz.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tv_feliz.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Exactly. As for suggestions of "initiation" etc we just politely smile at any such suggestions. A long time ago, we discussed these things with the top person at the temple (a gent who happens to be black, incidentally) and he understood that we would not become "members" etc. That's it. He never asked anything like that, and accepts us for what we are. There are other subordinate types (mostly desis) who lack the standards of this person, who do chatter away with all sorts of assumptions. They have their reasons and their world around them, and like I said before, if they devote their lives to being devotees, that's what is most important to them.
If I may venture the suggestion, a lot of Yindoos need to ease up and accept such things - micro-variations in how other Yindoos choose to worship, live etc.
So ISKCON does not say they are Hindus except when talking to Hindus - HOW does that matter? If they worship Krishna and have the entire sequence of Incarnations posted all over their temples, and teach at least a folk version of the epics to people who have never heard of them, are they better or worse "Hindus" than someone who claims deep knowledge of all the original Sanskrit books, but cannot see that all people and other creatures are children of the same Creation? (No implied insults against anyone here - just a general statement!) Doesn't the basic teaching say that it doesn't matter HOW one worships - the fact that one worships or accepts a Supreme Power is evidence enough, and the Supreme Being, being supreme, is also smart enough to accept that? If one doesn't accept that basic teaching, and gets hung up on precise procedures and precise angles of viewing, isn't one losing sight of that basic principle?
What good is it to know all the books, but not see this 101-level fact? What the books REALLY advice is to NOT be distracted by the noise, and to focus on what really matters. The rest is procedural details to help retain focus - never to get distracted. If one learns from the books how to stay focused, that's great. But hey, knowing the books does not make one superior any more than a coaching camp makes one superior as a batsman - if you score fewer runs on average than the uncouth Sehwag-type, well... you ain't as good a batsman, regardless of who your coach was.
I look at who has effectively spread the epics of Hinduism around the world - and it seems to me that the ISKCON does a good job of that, at least as much as the "Scholars" who can't kick the s*** out of the RISA.
Now about "Kristos = Krsna = Krishna" Well, what's wrong with that? Again, look at where the ISKCON has been operating. I think this is brilliant strategy - to tell people that what they learned about Yesu Kristu (called Jesus Christ by the Roman imperialists who nailed him to the cross) as children is not invalid - they don't have to unlearn it. Its just a subset of the infinite Reality. If you think in those terms, you see why they also claim that "Shiva = Narayana" does not mean "Narayana = Shiva". The "=" sign just means "subset" or "superset" in this case.
So what if they believe that? I can find as many people who believe that Kali is the only idea of the Almighty that they recognize. Or Shiva. Or any number of other forms. Until "Hindus" learn to recognize that all are the same, we are condemned to infighting and fratricide. Which is a pity, because an all-accepting and peaceful path is open before us.
And the beauty of all that is, "all-accepting" applies to worship - it says nothing about accepting evil. So kicking musharraf in the musharraf is still perfectly acceptable.
<!--emo&:tv--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tv_feliz.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tv_feliz.gif' /><!--endemo-->