09-06-2005, 11:26 PM
Admin,
Sorry for posting under this topic. I wanted to reply to Abhishek on what he said. Please move it to different topic later on.
Thanks
Abhishek,
I am impressed with your loyalty to your views and your belief that "war against islam thru peaceful means" would succeed. Unfortunately it is also foolhardy. I think you need to know the origin and beliefs of islam to understand that there is nothing peaceful about islam.
I would like to highlight some of the salient points in the origin of islam:
1) Islam was started by Muhamad who supposedly received revelation from God himself. Mohamad says that his only miracle is the koran, whose language is very complicated and beyond the scope of a commoner like himself and therefore should have been of divine origin. Actually, Mohamad was of royal lineage, not any commoner. His grandfather was from the Hashim family which was one of the tribes that ruled Mecca area. Mohamad, after his father's death was brought up by his grandfather who had considerable influence in Mecca. (I would say that it was not inconceivable that Muhamad was well educated and could have very well composed the koran himself. for the time being we will accept the divinity at face value.)
2) Initially there were only about 100 converts in Mecca, who mostly were youths belonging to the rich families of Mecca. After the death of Muhamad's grandfather, the muslims lost support in Mecca and were driven out and took refuge in Medina. Mohamad was invited by prominent people in Medina (called Yathrib at that time), to mediate between various tribes in Medina. Even in those days Mecca was a major pilgrim and economic center. During the festive season, to fecilitate pilgrimage, there used to be ceasefire amongst the tribes. As the early muslims did not have any money or property after moving to Medina, they started raiding and looting merchants during the ceasefire period. Gradually as the military power of the muslims increased, more and more tribes allied with Mohamad and became muslims. Most of these conversions were military alliances to buy peace.
3) During one such pilgrim season, muhamad negotiated with the Meccans to allow him and his fellow muslims to visit the Mecca temple (it is the same Kaaba temple that people visit during Haj) as a gesture of goodwill. The Meccans allowed the muslims believing that muslims want to co-exist. But immediately after muslims gained control of Mecca, muhamad banned all other religions in Mecca. So much for peaceful co-existance.
4) During these raids, muslims looted property and brought back women belonging to non-muslims. In order to coerce more people to convert and to prevent in-fighting, muhamad came up with a new rule. A muslim should not take other muslim's women, but can keep non-muslim's women by paying them a fixed monetary amount. (I think this rule alone would have caused lot of non-muslims to convert. Who would want their wife and daughters become properties of these raiding muslims. Many non-muslims converted to get their women back!)
5) Mecca was finally taken over when Meccans surrendered to Muhamad. The meccans laid down their weopons and take prisoner and were told that their lived would be spared. but the next day, muhamad said that god came in his dream told him that meccans must be punished. muhamad then ordered the execution of the 3000 Prisoners of war! That takes care of the concept of mercy towards enemies!
6) In order to prevent re-conversions, muhamad made apostasy punishable by death. Islam is the only religion that has this provision.
As you can see, peaceful co-existance is the last thing that a true muslim wants. If muslims are not openly forcing people to convert, it would mostly be because they do not have the numbers, Like the initial muslims were peaceful in Medina, ofcourse they were raiding caravans outside medina. That is the case with indian muslims too. Anywhere they become majority, they start killing and forcible conversions. Recent examples: Kashmir, Bangaladesh, Pakistan. The hindus in kashmir were driven out. Hindus were over 30% in Pakistan and Bangaladesh, now they are less that 5%. Wonder what happened to them? They probably converted to stay alive and to keep their wives and daughters. As for Sania mirza, abdul kalam and other progressive muslims, if and when muslims gain enough numbers to dominate, these progressive sections will be suppressed or eliminated!
Gandhi was wrong in believing that all religions, including islam and christianity (very similar to islam, but only try to convert thru currency, not sword!) are equals. This one belief led him to oppose partition and allow muslims to stay in india. Unless hindus understand that islam is a violent religion, we will continue to repeat gandhi's past mistakes.
Sorry for posting under this topic. I wanted to reply to Abhishek on what he said. Please move it to different topic later on.
Thanks
Abhishek,
I am impressed with your loyalty to your views and your belief that "war against islam thru peaceful means" would succeed. Unfortunately it is also foolhardy. I think you need to know the origin and beliefs of islam to understand that there is nothing peaceful about islam.
I would like to highlight some of the salient points in the origin of islam:
1) Islam was started by Muhamad who supposedly received revelation from God himself. Mohamad says that his only miracle is the koran, whose language is very complicated and beyond the scope of a commoner like himself and therefore should have been of divine origin. Actually, Mohamad was of royal lineage, not any commoner. His grandfather was from the Hashim family which was one of the tribes that ruled Mecca area. Mohamad, after his father's death was brought up by his grandfather who had considerable influence in Mecca. (I would say that it was not inconceivable that Muhamad was well educated and could have very well composed the koran himself. for the time being we will accept the divinity at face value.)
2) Initially there were only about 100 converts in Mecca, who mostly were youths belonging to the rich families of Mecca. After the death of Muhamad's grandfather, the muslims lost support in Mecca and were driven out and took refuge in Medina. Mohamad was invited by prominent people in Medina (called Yathrib at that time), to mediate between various tribes in Medina. Even in those days Mecca was a major pilgrim and economic center. During the festive season, to fecilitate pilgrimage, there used to be ceasefire amongst the tribes. As the early muslims did not have any money or property after moving to Medina, they started raiding and looting merchants during the ceasefire period. Gradually as the military power of the muslims increased, more and more tribes allied with Mohamad and became muslims. Most of these conversions were military alliances to buy peace.
3) During one such pilgrim season, muhamad negotiated with the Meccans to allow him and his fellow muslims to visit the Mecca temple (it is the same Kaaba temple that people visit during Haj) as a gesture of goodwill. The Meccans allowed the muslims believing that muslims want to co-exist. But immediately after muslims gained control of Mecca, muhamad banned all other religions in Mecca. So much for peaceful co-existance.
4) During these raids, muslims looted property and brought back women belonging to non-muslims. In order to coerce more people to convert and to prevent in-fighting, muhamad came up with a new rule. A muslim should not take other muslim's women, but can keep non-muslim's women by paying them a fixed monetary amount. (I think this rule alone would have caused lot of non-muslims to convert. Who would want their wife and daughters become properties of these raiding muslims. Many non-muslims converted to get their women back!)
5) Mecca was finally taken over when Meccans surrendered to Muhamad. The meccans laid down their weopons and take prisoner and were told that their lived would be spared. but the next day, muhamad said that god came in his dream told him that meccans must be punished. muhamad then ordered the execution of the 3000 Prisoners of war! That takes care of the concept of mercy towards enemies!
6) In order to prevent re-conversions, muhamad made apostasy punishable by death. Islam is the only religion that has this provision.
As you can see, peaceful co-existance is the last thing that a true muslim wants. If muslims are not openly forcing people to convert, it would mostly be because they do not have the numbers, Like the initial muslims were peaceful in Medina, ofcourse they were raiding caravans outside medina. That is the case with indian muslims too. Anywhere they become majority, they start killing and forcible conversions. Recent examples: Kashmir, Bangaladesh, Pakistan. The hindus in kashmir were driven out. Hindus were over 30% in Pakistan and Bangaladesh, now they are less that 5%. Wonder what happened to them? They probably converted to stay alive and to keep their wives and daughters. As for Sania mirza, abdul kalam and other progressive muslims, if and when muslims gain enough numbers to dominate, these progressive sections will be suppressed or eliminated!
Gandhi was wrong in believing that all religions, including islam and christianity (very similar to islam, but only try to convert thru currency, not sword!) are equals. This one belief led him to oppose partition and allow muslims to stay in india. Unless hindus understand that islam is a violent religion, we will continue to repeat gandhi's past mistakes.