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What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory-1

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What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory-1
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+May 11 2006, 01:29 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ May 11 2006, 01:29 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
I think the poster means that Indian looks get swamped in an interethnic marriage, because "we have all the genes of the major races" which probably make the non-Indian parent's genes more pronounced in the offspring. Hence the genetics determining Indian looks are weak because the kids look more like the non-Indian parent's people? Not sure, but that's what I understood.

Actually, when I first saw Norah Jones and Ben Kingsley I thought they had something Indian about them. I thought they looked Indian, not European. Never seen Nasser Hussain.
Diya Handrich (aka Diya Mirza) is part Bengali Hindu, part German. Her mother remarried and the Afghan Muslim stepdad's surname helped to make Diya's surname sound less foreign. She looks rather Indian, I couldn't tell she had a non-Indian parent.
[right][snapback]51022[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

My cousins have Italian/Euro and Indian blood(My uncle). They all have dark hair and look between caucasians and Indians. When I told them that there is dominant traits such as black hair which is the most common in the world they were surprised.
Only one of my cousins looks totally european with a jewish nose but rest of them have been mistaken for mexican , meditranean and with Indian names they are Indians.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+May 11 2006, 06:59 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ May 11 2006, 06:59 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, when I first saw Norah Jones and Ben Kingsley I thought they had something Indian about them.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

for once you thought correctly. norah jones does have something indian about her. her father is a certain Pandit Ravi Shankar.
Post 241:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Only one of my cousins looks totally european with a jewish nose but rest of them have been mistaken for mexican , meditranean and with Indian names they are Indians.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah, that happens even with many Indians who don't have any extra-Indian ancestry. My sister has been mistaken for a South American by a lecturer from that part of the world, whilst other lecturers had long assumed that she was part European. I think she just looks Indian. But she's a dead-ringer for Angelina Jolie - an Indian one with black hair and brown eyes. My cousins and I look regular South Indian, though. Shows how the Indian gene pool is simply vast.

Post 242:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->when I <b>first saw</b> Norah Jones and Ben Kingsley I thought they had something Indian about them<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
her father is a certain Pandit Ravi Shankar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes I knew that. I'll save you the trouble of telling me that Ben Kingsley is part Indian and part Jewish, in case you were planning to. I knew that too.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+May 14 2006, 06:08 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ May 14 2006, 06:08 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Post 241:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Only one of my cousins looks totally european with a jewish nose but rest of them have been mistaken for mexican , meditranean and with Indian names they are Indians.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah, that happens even with many Indians who don't have any extra-Indian ancestry. My sister has been mistaken for a South American by a lecturer from that part of the world, whilst other lecturers had long assumed that she was part European. I think she just looks Indian. But she's a dead-ringer for Angelina Jolie - an Indian one with black hair and brown eyes. My cousins and I look regular South Indian, though. Shows how the Indian gene pool is simply vast.

Post 242:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->when I <b>first saw</b> Norah Jones and Ben Kingsley I thought they had something Indian about them<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
her father is a certain Pandit Ravi Shankar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes I knew that. I'll save you the trouble of telling me that Ben Kingsley is part Indian and part Jewish, in case you were planning to. I knew that too.
[right][snapback]51166[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I have been studying physical features of people from different countries. Though i am not an expert.

If you look at black people from north africa they differ from the central or southern africans. north africans have more of caucasian features though they are black. The same distinction can be made in india too assuming no migration is involved. Indians of mixed origin will slowly loose their ancestory after one or two generation as they mix with the local european populations. Which is why there is strong resistance in some communities to mix with the local population.

I see there have been a lot of controversy regarding my earlier post. I am sorry if i have offended anyone.
<!--QuoteBegin-marc_robinson+May 14 2006, 11:16 PM-->QUOTE(marc_robinson @ May 14 2006, 11:16 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I see there have been a lot of controversy regarding my earlier post. I am sorry if i have offended anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

you can't make a post without offending people. just accept this reality about yourself and start posting already...with impunity. ok?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->north africans have more of caucasian features though they are black. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

now i am deeply offended. what are 'caucasian' features. is a flat nosed, round faced, bald headed danubian nordic caucasoid or a borreby caucasoid a 'caucasian?'

<b>o lord have mercy!!</b>
a sad end for the euros......

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, while not planning a protest or boycott, members
of the National Organization for Albinism and
Hypopigmentation expressed unhappiness with the film's
heavy, a monk-assassin, being an albino,
as described
in the book.

Michael McGowan, an albino who heads the organization,
said <b>"The Da Vinci Code" </b>will be the 68th movie since
1960 to feature an evil albino.

The "Da Vinci" character "is just the latest in a long
string," McGowan said. <b>"The problem is there has been
no balance. There are no realistic, sympathetic or
heroic characters with albinism that you can find in
movies or popular culture."</b>

He said the group aims to use the movie's popularity
to raise awareness about the realities of albinism.
People with albinism have little or no pigmentation in
their skin, eyes and hair.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Unearthing the roots of an island nation
By Asgar Hussein


A study using the ground-breaking technique of dental morphological analysis indicates that ancestors of the present day Sinhalese could have established the island's megalithic culture.

It also concludes that the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilisation of Harappa had dental traits resembling Sinhalese much more closely than Tamils or other Dravidian speaking populations.

This evidence emerges from the work of American anthropologist Dr. Dane Hawkey. Her thesis is titled 'Out of Asia: Dental Evidence for Affinities and Microevolution of Early Populations from India/ Sri Lanka.'

To draw her conclusions, Dr. Hawkey had compared the teeth of pre-historic and early iron age groups of Sri Lanka with the present communities as well as ancient and modern populations in India, South East Asia, Australia and the Middle East.

The findings could demolish the myth that Dravidians established the island's megalithic culture. Dr. Hawkey shows that the skeletal remains at Pomparippu clearly indicate they possessed dental traits much more similar to Sinhalese than Tamils, Veddas or the more primitive Balangoda Man.

The Pomparippu dwellers (who probably lived around 500-1000 BC) followed the iron age burial custom of placing their dead in large clay vessels which were then buried.

In fact, dental morphology shows a close affinity between the Sinhalese and the Austro-Asiatic people of Eastern and North Eastern India. This implies they are of common stock.

Dr. Hawkey's study also debunks the myth that Dravidians are descended from the inhabitants of the great pre-historic Indus Valley Civilisation of Harappa. It concludes that Harappans and East Indian Austro-Asiatics resemble Sinhalese in dental traits much more than Sri Lankan Tamils, peninsular Indians or South Indian tribal groups.

Interestingly, the Harappans (who practised international trade) also display dental similarities with Egyptians and Nubians who lived in the second millennium B.C. The available evidence indicates a genetic inflow into Egypt from North West India in ancient times. Furthermore, the ancient Egyptians possessed only few dental similarities with the populations in Sub-Saharan Africa.

The recent findings also contribute to a new theory that anatomically - modern humans originated in South and South East Asia. This stands as a rival to the 'Out of Africa' theory that held they evolved in the dark continent, which went unchallenged until recently.

It is indeed significant that Dr. Hawkey had incorporated much evidence unearthed in Sri Lanka to support the new theory. The oldest evidence of modern humans in Asia came from the Fa-Hien Lena Cave in Sri Lanka and the Niah Cave in Borneo. The specimens are 35,000-40,000 years old.

Interestingly, there are no dental similarities between Africans and early/modern South Asians. Indeed, pre-historic South Asians resemble the present day populations (in the region) more closely than any other people in the world, indicating overall homogeneity. As time progressed however, they became increasingly heterogeneous, as differences are evident during the iron age.

It is believed than an ancient group of humans evolved in South and South-East Asia and later migrated elsewhere. In fact, dental traits similar to Balangoda Man have been found in specimens from Ukraine. This suggests a dental pattern which at one time prevailed in South Asia, South East Asia and South East Europe.

Another interesting finding by Dr. Hawkey is that Balangoda Man shows stronger dental similarities to the Melanesians in the Pacific region than to the Australian Aborigines.

Veddas are racially akin to Balangoda Man, although the former show racial fusion with the early Sinhalese and Tamil groups. It is however noteworthy that veddoid teeth bear a closer resemblance to that of Balangoda Man than Sinhalese or Tamils.

Another important conclusion is that those communities of Balangoda Man living in Sri Lanka less than 10,000 years ago possessed more primitive dental morphological traits than contemporary Indian groups. This indicates that although the two countries were then connected by the land link known as Adam's Bridge, the gene flow between its peoples during that period was not significant.

This finding lends support to Dr. Siran Deraniyagala's view that the island may have been a 'cul-de-sac' where weaker communities sought refuge.

He believes that stone age pre-historic man would have preferred to migrate to certain areas in peninsular India where food was more abundant, compelling the weaker groups to enter Sri Lanka.

In fact, archaeological evidence on 'carrying capacity' indicates that the stone age communities who remained in some parts of the Indian sub-continent were more numerous in number than those who inhabited Sri Lanka.

With archaeologists continuing to unearth more evidence and anthropologists using new techniques to analyse them, we would later have a greater understanding of the early inhabitants of the island and their affinity to populations of the Indian sub-continent and elsewhere. All this will go a long way in disproving false beliefs. History may well have to be rewritten if the truth is to reign supreme.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->'Out of Asia: Dental Evidence for Affinities and Microevolution of Early Populations from India/ Sri Lanka.'

Dental morphology technique used by Dr. Hawkey

Dr. Dane Hawkey used the new technique of dental morphological analysis to reach her astounding conclusions. It works on the basis that the form and structure of human teeth are determined overwhelmingly by genetic factors rather than environmental influences. This method is certainly more reliable than anthropometrical measurements like height, head form, nose form or cranial capacity as such characteristics could be altered by environmental factors over a long time period.

Says Director General, Archaeology Department, Dr. Siran Deraniyagala, "Dental morphology is an excellent tool to assess physical affinities between different human groups."

For her research, Dr. Hawkey analysed skeletal remains of the so-called 'Balangoda Man' dating back 5000-40,000 years. These were excavated from the caves of Fa-Hien Lena, Batadomba Lena and Beli Lena, as well as the open air burial site at Bellanbadipallassa.

She also studied the remains of the community that occupied the megalithic (or early iron age) site at Pomparippu, near Puttalam. Also analysed were the teeth of Veddas collected during the 19th and early 20th century, southern Sinhalese, and Tamils mostly from the North.

Dr. Hawkey however concedes that her sample of dental material may be too small, and therefore her affinity assessments are tentative. She says more research needs to be conducted using a larger sample.

Dental morphology is considered a credible technique, along with analyses of Gm and HLA blood systems, mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome DNA. Such methods should be used concurrently with archaeological, natural historical/environmental and linguistic studies. This approach would lead to a more reliable reconstruction of the origin and evolution of the different populations in the Indian sub-continent and Sri Lanka.

Dr. Deraniyagala asserts that biological anthropological analyses of present day populations are essential for future comparative studies.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Dr. Hawkey's study also debunks the myth that Dravidians are descended from the inhabitants of the great pre-historic Indus Valley Civilisation of Harappa. It concludes that Harappans and East Indian Austro-Asiatics resemble Sinhalese in dental traits much more than Sri Lankan Tamils, peninsular Indians or South Indian tribal groups</b>.

Interestingly, the Harappans (who practised international trade) also display dental similarities with Egyptians and Nubians who lived in the second millennium B.C. The available evidence indicates a genetic inflow into Egypt from North West India in ancient times. Furthermore, the ancient Egyptians possessed only few dental similarities with the populations in Sub-Saharan Africa.

<b>The recent findings also contribute to a new theory that anatomically - modern humans originated in South and South East Asia. This stands as a rival to the 'Out of Africa' theory that held they evolved in the dark continent, which went unchallenged until recently.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is interesting. AIT will be down into drain.


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>He believes that stone age pre-historic man would have preferred to migrate to certain areas in peninsular India where food was more abundant, compelling the weaker groups to enter Sri Lanka</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Dr. Hawkey however concedes that her sample of dental material may be too small, and therefore her affinity assessments are tentative. She says more research needs to be conducted using a larger sample.
Her approach is different<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
from above:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Pomparippu dwellers (who probably lived around 500-1000 BC) followed the iron age burial custom of placing their dead in large clay vessels which were then buried.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

from another article:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->.....Pallemalala man's cultural artefacts indicate a middle stone-age (mesolithic) culture, that is to say a culture that possessed no polished ( neolithic) stone implements nor any related economic activity such as agriculture or animal domestication.

The discovery in the burial floor of the skull of a wild boar with its tusks intact in close proximity to a human skull suggests that the creature figured in some kind of ritual, contends Somadeva. He observed that it is a curious fact that the Mahasona demon should be depicted in Sinhalese folk tradition as having the head of a boar. It is also interesting to point out that the practice somewhat resembles the kirikoraha ceremony of the Veddas where the head of the kill - usually a deer - was offered to Kande Yaka, the Vedda god of hunting.

Besides providing good research material for a study of the island's stone age population, the Pallemalala site has the added benefit of being superimposed by an iron age occupation level of some settled incipient agricultural community, perhaps that of the early Aryan-speaking Sinhalese. Iron age site

Somadeva's team has found an iron age site directly above the shell midden which had been lying beneath the top soil for a good many centuries. The team stumbled upon the remains of four post halls during the course of their excavations which seem to have supported a modest wattle and daub structure. It evidently belonged to the iron age as attested by the discovery of an iron artefact at the site.

This would imply that the mesolithic had been abruptly terminated by the advent of an invading iron-using population without undergoing a neolithic phase.

Although seemingly neolithic artefacts produced by abrasion have been discovered in some ancient sites, Somadeva contends that the evidence for a clear-cut neolithic period in Sri Lanka is insufficient.............................. http://www.lankalibrary.com/<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Although the reporter confuses Derinagayala's evidence for agriculture for the mesolithic sri lankans, he does state that advent of Iron implements and jar inhumation is that of the Sinhala. He also states that evidence for the boar ritual in mesolithic times is reflected in sinhala tradition.. Now we understand why it so important for Indologist morons to place Indian iron phase as younger than that of the intrusive Hittites in the ME- despite the strong evidence for SSVC use of iron as well as historically unsurpassed indian mastery of iron-working. PRobably we are looking at an earlier mesolithic sinhala presence witha later specifically buddhist iron age overlay.
This artcile was referenced earlier: Deraniyagala:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->...<b>.There is palynological (pollen) evidence from the Horton Plains for herding (?Bos indicus) and the incipient management of barley and oats by >15,000 BC and by herding and the farming of barley and oats by 8,000 BC (Premathilake 2000).</b> Then there is Doravak-lena shelter which is said to have yielded a geometric microlithic industry in association with what appears to be a cereal and a crude red pottery by 5,300 BC and <b>Black and Red Ware (BRW) by 3,100 BC </b>(Wiyeyapala in Deraniyagala ip:34, final report pends.). There is also Mantai where a geometric microlithic horizon dated to ca. 1,800 BC was found associated with a few pieces of slag, which could indicate the knowledge of copper-working as manifested in southern India by ca. 2,000 BC 5 . At all three sites, the indications are that settlements suggestive of herding/farming dominating the subsistence strategy are not in evidence. Assuming that the term ’protohistoric’ applies only when over half the nutrient intake is derived from food production (ie, herding/farming) these sites are being assigned to the prehistoric period. But they do represent the transition from prehistory to protohistory in Sri Lanka. It was of considerable duration, ca. 13,000 years, and constitutes a field of research into what is still uncharted terrain. It is probable that from at least as early as 14,000 BC up to ca. 1,000 BC, different subsistence strategies were being employed comtemporaneously, according to the ecological niche being exploited. These strategies could have ranged from one based 100 per cent on hunting and gathering to those with a certain degree of herding/farming with hunting and gathering being still predominant.

The new evidence from the Horton Plains is of the greatest significance (Premathilake 2000). Ghar-i-Mar and Aq Kupruk in Afghanistan and Mehrgarh in Pakistan are known to have had a Neolithic subsistence strategy by 7,000-6,000 BC. There is tentative evidence of herding in northern Rajasthan by 7,000 BC, of rice and pottery at Koldihwa, U.P. in India by 5,000 BC, and perhaps cereal management/farming in the Nilgiri Hills of South India by 8,000 BC (Gupta and Prasad 1985 cited in Premathilake 2000).....http://www.lankalibrary.com/geo/dera2.html <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bioarchaeology: The Lives and Lifestyles of Past People (pdf)
Clark Spencer Larsen

..Hemphill’s biodistance analysis of cranial metrics, however, provides compelling evidence that the ancestry of the Tarim Basin groups was non-European (Hemphill, 2000). Rather, his analysis reveals a biological affinity with the Indus Valley population of northern India for the earlier groups, whereas the later groups show affinity to populations of the Oxus River valley in south-central Asia... <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
important read -

http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter56/text56.htm
2001 interview of Richard Villem

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hinduism Today. July/August, 2001
SCIENCE

DNA Exposes India's Past

New theory posits that today's Indians arrived over 50,000 years ago

Genetic evidence isn't just about freeing the unjustly convicted these days or determining whether Thomas Jefferson did or did not have children by his black slave, Sally Hemmings. It's also casting new light on the mid-18th century theory of India's history called the "Aryan Invasion." This, as you may recall having read it in virtually every historical account of India is the pervasive notion that about 1800 bce, hordes of horseback-riding, chariot-driving, light-skinned invaders from the West stormed into India, laying waste the advanced Indus Valley cities, bringing with them Sanskrit, the Rig Veda, the brahmin priest system and every other good thing!

According to one of the most widely-used history books on India, The Wonder that was India, by A.L. Basham, the invading Aryans were, "semi-nomadic barbarians, tall, who tamed the horse, were pastoral, and migrated in bands eastwards, conquering local populations and intermarrying with them to form a ruling class. They brought with them their patrilineal family system, their worship of the sky gods...." These same people, Basham states, also went westwards, "to become the ancestors of the Greeks, Latins, Celts and Teutons." Just about every aspect of modern Hinduism is attributed either directly to these invaders, or as a result of their interaction with the conquered, likely Dravidian-speaking, people.

The Aryan Invasion theory has been under siege from many sides, especially in the last ten years. Literary, archeological and astronomical evidence simply fail to support it, and critics are quick to point out the very convenient purpose the theory served: to support the British take-over of India at the same time, who were the latest in a series of invaders. Even mainstream historians, some of them students of the renowned Professor Basham, have abandoned it. But many still hold to it, in part because so many aspects of Hinduism have traditionally been explained in the West by this invasion. For example, take this explanation from Basham on the origins of the sudras, or worker caste. "The sudra was in fact a second-class citizen, on the fringes of [the conquering] Aryan society." Such assertions exacerbate caste tension even today.

Now, recent DNA research has a one-word answer for this invasion theory: "Not." With the theory's fall would go most of the scholarly explanations of the origins of Sanskrit, the Vedas, brahmins, sudras, etc., etc.

That refutation is just one result of a broad re-evaluation of human history as a result of genetic research. The latest theory is called the "recent replacement model." It is based on analysis of "mitochondreal DNA," which is passed from generation to generation only through the mother. Such analysis allows geneticists to trace back a person's ancestry, and determine when one group of people separated from another.

The startling conclusion of this model is that all modern humans can be traced back to migrations out of East Africa, possibly just 50,000 years ago, and certainly no more than 200,000 years ago. Spreading out from the area near modern Ethiopia, they went north to Europe and west to India, then on to China and Australia.

For as-yet-unknown reasons, they completely replaced the existing archaic humans who themselves had previously spread out of Africa two million years before. It must be admitted that neither geneticists nor anyone else are especially clear about how this "replacement" of the earlier humans occurred, and further discoveries may disrupt current theories and conclusions.

The science of all this is complex, but Professor Richard Villems of the Estonian Biocentre in Estonia explained some of the consequences to Hinduism Today in an e-mail interview. "I am aware of the problem of the Aryan Invasion, and although some of my colleagues still want to see its influence in the Indian maternal lineages, we are very skeptical about it."

"It is not entirely correct," Villems went on, "to say that Indians and Europeans separated some 50,000 years ago. It is, however, appropriate to conclude from this evidence that the maternal lineages of the present-day Indian populations are largely autochthonous, that is, unique to India, and very, very old. Indians are readily distinguished from Europeans, Near-Middle East populations and those living north or east of India." "There are signs," he wrote, "of later admixtures, particularly along the border regions, but this has had only a limited impact."

We asked him about language, specifically the common belief that the presence of languages derived from Indo-European, such as Sanskrit and Hindi, in the north, and the Dravidic languages of the south indicate a racial divide. "There is only a small difference between the pools of maternal lineages between Indians," replied Dr. Villems, "whether they speak Indo-European or Dravidic languages. Also, the maternal genetic lineages of the Indian tribal populations are the same as the rest of the population." This latter discovery contradicts the theory that "Indians" displaced "tribals" from the plains regions of India at some point in history, pushing them into the hill regions.

What language, we asked, did the ancestors of today's Indians and Europeans speak when they left Africa? "The problem," Villems replied, "with historic linguistics is that their time horizon is at best 8,000 years maximum, because their methods don't yield positive information below this time depth. So you will hardly find anyone who wants to speak about Indo-European or whatever language before that time. A few are 'brave enough' to suggest the split between Dravidic and Indo-European was 16,000 to 19,000 years ago."

"I think that the Aryan Invasion theory," concluded Villems, "in its classical form is dead already, and an attempt to overkill it would perhaps rather scatter our attention from a more complete understanding of the demographic history of India's people."

It is now the job of historians, social anthropologists and Hindus in general to weed out the vast array of myths generated by the Aryan Invasion theory, beginning with the notion that the people of north and south India are of fundamentally different origin. Right today, there are heated debates over the use of Sanskrit in South Indian
temples because it is regarded as an "imposition" of northernbrahmins. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other baseless conclusions about India derived from this persistent but unfounded legend.    http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2001...56-57_dna.shtml<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Relics reveal pre-historic civilisation in China

Beijing, June 25 (PTI): Chinese archaeologists claim that relics unearthed in areas along the strategic Qinghai-Tibet Railway have proved that human beings lived there atleast 30,000 years ago.

Experts with Qinghai Provincial Archaeological Institute said they collected large number of chipped stone tools including knives and pointed implements dating back 30,000 years in the Tuotuo River valley, Hoh Xil, a habitat for Tibetan antelopes, and Qaidam Basin, where the world's highest railway runs through, during recent excavations.

More than 30 stone implements were also discovered at the site of Sancha River bridge on the Qinghai-Tibet railway, located in Golmud, a city over 70 km to the north of Kunlun Mountains, head of the Qinghai Provincial Archaeological Institute, Xu Xinguo said.

Xu said these stone tools might reveal an important link of the cultural exchanges between Hailar, a city of northern Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region and Nyalam County of the Tibet Autonomous Region in southwest China.

"If we can find relics dating back to the same period at the stratum of the region, that will further prove that our ancestors lived on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau 30,000 years ago and that the Kunlun Mountains is one of the cradles of the Chinese civilisation," Xu said.
<b>
A Sino-US joint investigation team also found ruins of the same age in the Kunlun Mountains several years ago, said Gao Xing, a research fellow with the ancient vertebrate and palaeoanthropology institute of the Chinese Academy of Sciences. </b>


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>People in north and south India belong to the same gene pool: ICHR Chairman</b>
T.S. Ranganna
http://www.hindu.com/2006/06/24/stories/...870400.htm

<i>He says studies prove this; conclusion that Aryans came here 15,000 years before Christ does not hold water</i>

<img src='http://www.hindu.com/2006/06/24/images/2006062412870401.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

ABOUT HISTORY: (From left) Chairman of the Indian Council of Historical Research D.N. Tripathi, Vice-Chancellor of Bangalore University H.A. Ranganath, and former ICHR Chairman M.G.S. Narayanan releasing lecture-series publications of the ICHR, in Ba ngalore on Friday. — Photo: K. Murali Kumar

BANGALORE: Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) tests of blood samples from people in the Indian subcontinent have confirmed that the human race had its origins in Africa and not Europe or Central Asia as claimed by a few historians.

The test has classified the people in north and south India as belonging to one gene pool, and not different ethnic groups such as Aryans and Dravidians.

Giving the information to The Hindu here, Chairman of the Indian Council of Historical Research D.N. Tripathi said geneticists from Pakistan had collected samples for genetics analysis of the people of Indian subcontinent and sent them to cellular and molecular biology laboratories in the U.S. Scientists in Pakistan concluded from the test results that the human race spread out of Africa 60,000 years before Christ. They settled in the subcontinent. Geneticists in Pakistan concluded that people living in the northern and southern regions of India and those in the West Asian region were from the same gene pool, he added.

Asked about the argument of many historians tracing the lineage of people in north India to Aryans, Prof. Tripathi said test results had proved this wrong. "We have the results of studies. The conclusion of some historians that Aryans came here 15,000 years before Christ does not hold water," he added.

Publications released

Earlier, Prof. Tripathi presided over a function at which lecture-series publications of the ICHR's southern regional centre were released. He appealed to Vice-Chancellor of Bangalore University H.A. Ranganath, an expert in genetics, to encourage research and lectures on the subject. The ICHR, he said, was ready to cooperate.

Prof. Tripathi said the ICHR was engaged in genetics and linguistic studies on inscriptions from the days of the Vijayanagar Kingdom. Inscriptions collected from south India would be made available in six CD-ROMs, he added.

M.G.S. Narayanan, former ICHR Chairman, released publications.

Prof. Ranganath advised students and members of faculty of all the university departments to interact with historians to preserve their knowledge for future generations. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->People in north and south India belong to the same gene pool: ICHR Chairman<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here goes western Indologist thesis in <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This findings should be publicized more.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The conclusion of some historians that Aryans came here 15,000 years before Christ does not hold water.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Did he mean 15,000 BCE or 1,500 BCE?
Neither side (AIT or VOI) claims that Aryans entered India in BCE 15,000.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ice Ages and the mitochondrial DNA chronology of human dispersals: a review (pdf)
Peter Forster

...An early exodus out of Africa evidenced by the remains at Skhul and Qafzeh 100 ka has not left any descendants in today’s Eurasian mtDNA pool. By contrast, the successful exodus of women carrying M and N mtDNA at ca. 60 ka, ancestral to all non-African mtDNA today, may coincide with the unprecedented low sea-levels at that time, probably open-ing a route across the Red Sea to Yemen... <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Post 256:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->People in north and south India belong to the same gene pool<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->What's sad is that today's Indians are so distanced from traditional knowledge by their Suckular education that we need genetic or archaeological or other results to tell us what we already knew.

It's the AIT Europeans who ought to be taken by surprise at such news, not Indians. (I don't think most people here were surprised by this)
And yet, Indians today need to read such things in communist papers before we accept the validity of our own Hindu records on the matter.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The conclusion of some historians that Aryans came here 15,000 years before Christ does not hold water.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, the article consistently mentions 15,000 bce. Either:
(a) The reporter got it consistently wrong and wrote 15,000 bce where the researchers had indicated 1500 (quite likely, considering the low IQ people must have to write in today's Hindu paper).
(b) The researchers meant 1500 but consistently misstated it as 15,000 (less likely)
(c ) The research had checked for as far back as 15,000 bce (or even beyond) and the results showed that even back then us Indians in the N & S were one people.

I secretly hope it's (c ) - then there was no AIT that occurred any time between the present and 17000 bp or even more years ago.

The article also seems to indicate that Central Asia and even Europe were at one point considered as potential origin regions for the human <i>species</i>. I didn't know that. Or maybe that's just the reporter's misunderstanding.

Just one question, as Christ did not appear to have existed, how long ago is 15,000 years before Christ? <!--emo&:unsure:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='unsure.gif' /><!--endemo--> That must be one of the many reasons why they invented bce and ce, I suppose. <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Geneticists in Pakistan concluded that people living in the northern and southern regions of India and those in the West Asian region were from the same gene pool, he added.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course all Indians (N & S), Afghans and Iranians are related. But I guess that was a big surprise to the Indology department.
Sometimes I feel humanity is wasting its time on researching things we already knew (just to refute the troublesome people whose minds are stuck on the wrong paradigm) instead of focussing on other things. We could be spending the time trying to get Cold fusion to work or something.


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