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Misc & "Social Engneering" topics
<!--QuoteBegin-johnpaul+Feb 10 2005, 01:47 PM-->QUOTE(johnpaul @ Feb 10 2005, 01:47 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> can you relate if i will say tropical climate is the main factor why there are 3rd world countries ?  evolution for 2000 years over tropical climate, what will be the effects of this ? 
Are you comparing last 300 year history of present developed countries with 2000 year history of current third world countries who were rich once upon a time?

Nothing but ignorance!!!

- Before colonization hot and tropical India was contributing 20% of world GDP
- The western industrial revolution was financed by loot they got from India

BTW, do you really believe that present rich countries will continue to be rich for another 2000 years? It may be better to learn some history about rise and fall of Roman, British and Soviet empires.
<b>Is 'Incredible India' glossing over 'ugly realities'</b>?
<b>India's poverty: Help the poor help themselves</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Can India ever overcome its huge poverty problem? It depends on what strategy the country takes.

Today, India appears to have four broad approaches to tackling poverty. The first is essentially to abolish the poor, rather than poverty. This was graphically illustrated in Mumbai this year when slum neighborhoods were razed, making 400,000 people homeless. The Mumbai police followed up by beating protesters whose shacks had been demolished.

The second approach is often termed the trickle-down model, but perhaps better described as "ignore the poor." A favorite of many Indian economists, it argues that in the next two to three decades poverty will disappear as market forces go to work.

But even if prosperity does eventually trickle down, sitting back and doing nothing about poverty for yet another generation is a human and economic waste.

India's government is backing a third, developmental approach that aims to improve the social and physical conditions of the rural and urban poor. This means more and better roads, improvements in water supplies and rural electrification; it also means big steps forward in education and health, together with efforts at microfinance.

The fourth and most ambitious approach seeks to exploit the unused entrepreneurial abilities of the poor.

In the state of Kerala, near India's southern tip, bureaucrats work with the poorest women in a program called Kudumbashree, or Family Prosperity. The aim is to identify the women's needs - from literacy and training to housing, health care and jobs - and to put them in charge of managing their own development. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-prmadhura+Jul 5 2004, 10:25 AM-->QUOTE(prmadhura @ Jul 5 2004, 10:25 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> I personally feel that using Kulhars for drinking or eating anything is not at all Hygienic Practice.  They would fast absorb atmospheric moisture and hence microbes; which in turn could set of a bout of dysentery or gastroenteritis to those who use them for any human consumption.  As the “consciousness on hygiene of our lower classes is abysmally low, disposable plastic cups (which are not biodegradable) or even better paper cups (which are easily biodegradable) should be continued in Indian Railways as well as everywhere.
prmadhura (if you still lurk):

Lalu bans soft drinks on trains

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps the turn of political events in Bihar kept him occupied. But he is now looking to strike form again and <b>has announced a ban on sale of soft drinks on trains and stations.

Instead, passengers will be treated to lots of butter milk.</b> As a "swadeshi" proposal, this measure is in keeping with Lalu's decision, taken soon after he became railway minister last year, to introduce earthen kulhars in all trains instead of plastic disposable cups.

"A ban will be imposed on serving of cold drinks like Pepsi, Cola and Fanta in trains as well as at railway stations," Lalu said at a public meeting after laying the foundation stone of the Rs 384 crore Chhindwara-Nagpur broad-gauge line project.

The banning of soft drinks may turn out to be a more complicated affair.

One would think he'll ban the railways too and push for those bullock carts. Seems to be the only way to make this Lallluu's job redudant.
Nah, now he is looking for funds from Pepsi, Cola and Fanta. <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Most of the old isms are now dead except for few embers in the minds of those who have seen their initial heydays. Classical version of socialism is one such defunct ideology. At the other end of the ideological spectrum is the highly imaginative (hence impractical) doctrine of “from each according to their might and to each according to their needs”. The need of the times is a viable social ideology by mixing socialism with social justice. The two main problems with classical socialism were its irrationality in equalising unequal beings and injustice in terms of denying legitimate rights of the abler. A rational and just version of socialism (we will call it ‘raju’ socialism) will be the best target for any modern society. “Raju” is the symbolic name of a common man in India and ‘raju’ version of socialism can satisfy his hopes & aspirations more than any other system. A brief outline of such a socialist society is attempted here.

The best way to describe a socio-political ideology is to describe the nature of society (country or nation) that it will usher in. In this respect, any society can claim to have achieved ‘raju’ socialism only when the following four minimum conditions have been met:-

• Basic minimum requirements for all
• No negative discrimination whatsoever
• Proportional representation in power & economic structure
• Rational distribution of wealth


In any modern society, the question of social justice comes in only after the basic requirements of the common man have been met. In addition to the essential minimum of food, shelter & clothing, the modern man wants good infrastructure too in terms of water, roads, electricity, health, education and entertainment. If these items are not readily available and affordable to (almost) all the members of a society, there is no point in talking about social justice or socialism in that society. These basic requirements constitute the canvas on which the picture of ‘raju’ socialism can be drawn. In addition to the bare canvas, we need the framework of freedom of life, movement, expression, and faith to hold together the picture. In the absence of such basics, all talk about social justice and liberation are meaningless and like drawing a picture on water. So the first step of the leaders who want to attain ‘raju’ socialism in their society is to get the basics right.


Any society that has attained ‘raju’ socialism must be devoid of all types of negative discrimination. No one should be prevented from doing anything or enjoying any benefit because of reasons beyond his/her control like birth, colour, race etc. The only thing good and rational about classical socialism was its strong advocacy of equality before law. All members of a society must be equal before the common law of the land and only the selected or elected few must be assigned special privileges on strictly ex-officio basis for a fixed period. Elected leaders are like idols in a temple and unless we give or assign them special privileges and powers, they will be weak in taking decisions. However, there must be strong restraining and punitive laws against those who violate the spirit of equality. The psychological impact of a non-discriminatory justice system is very high in the eyes of the common man in any society. If an ex-ruler is arrested and treated as an ordinary criminal for confirmed corruption charges, the ordinary citizens of such a country will not be shameful but proud.


Every society is made up of several communities or groups. Each such group or community must share the responsibilities and benefits in direct proportion to their numerical strength in an ideal and just society. To do that, each community should have their representation in the power and economic structure in direct proportion to their population. Imagine a state (in the Indian union) with X,Y and Z communities in the ratio of 20%, 25% and 55% respectively. If at any point of time, the Chief Minister, Chief Secretary and Chief of Police in that state happen to be from ‘X’, there is something definitely wrong with the political state of affairs. If 50% of the doctors and engineers belong to ‘X’, there is something rotten in the social sector. If 75% of the trade and agriculture is controlled by ‘X’ and ‘Y’ together, there is something seriously wrong in economics as well. The state is far away attaining ‘raju’ socialism.


Distribution of wealth according to the capability and needs of the individuals is the crux of ‘raju’ socialism. Once the very basic requirements of even the weakest member of a society have been met, further distribution of wealth must be according to the capability and efforts of the individuals. There is absolutely no logic in restraining any individual from accumulating wealth by merit and fair means. If someone is intelligent and hardworking, he/she should definitely have avenues to become wealthier without any hindrance. Those who are more capable and hardworking must be richer than the ones who are idiotic and lazy. Such a system will motivate or provoke the less capable and lazy to perform better. Instead of creating an artificial equality by bloody revolutions, efforts should be made to mould a competitive system by rewarding excellence. That is the only way a healthy competitive upward mobile society can evolve for the good of each and everyone.

Ways & Means

On the whole, the ‘raju’ socialism expounded above contains shades of socialism, social justice, welfare state and capitalist ideologies. More important are the ways & means of reaching such a ‘raju’ socialist state. We have seen Communism failing miserably in creating a sustainable socialist society through bloody revolution (by the proletariat) in the USSR experiment. It is now confirmed that neither politicians nor dictators can lead us to a just society. We need natural leaders of the like of Mahatma Gandhi, who combined politics with spirituality. Ordinary political leaders are not necessarily natural leaders but most often aberrations in the arithmetic of electoral politics. A ‘raju’ socialist society must be built on consensus based on a constitution drafted by natural leaders who have won the trust of the society by their living style and not their speeches alone. In modern democracies, there must be a forum for such natural leaders for providing the guidance. In India, the old concept of having a ‘Dharma Sabha’ made up of spiritual leaders (proportionately from all religions) above the elected ‘Lok Sabha’ and ‘Rajya Sabha’ can be the best vehicle for attaining a ‘raju’ socialist society.
<b>Lok Sabha passes Rural Employment Bill </b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The National Rural Employment Guarantee Bill, 2004, was passed by the House by voice vote after all amendments moved by the Opposition were rejected at the end of a marathon discussion.

In a spirited reply to the debate, Rural Development Minister Raghuvansh Prasad Singh sought to allay Opposition's apprehensions that funds would go down the drain saying strict monitoring and vigilance would be ensured at the level of village committees.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Rejecting the opposition charge that selection of districts could be guided by political considerations, he said the choice would be done only on the basis of SC/ST population, productivity and prevalent wage structure<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some good Maps by GoI based on demographics, literacy, etc.
Interesting article here on the risks of Europe's Fortress mindset, and India's message.

India’s Eau de Cologne and Europe’s Stench:
<b>It would take some more time for EU member s to come to terms with the new realities of the World Economic Order. The French and Luxembourg reaction is the result of the lack of realization that the world is fast changing. Anyway, it is most unlikely that the stand taken by them will receive support from all members of the 25 member EU. The Govt of India will obviously not take the threat from Luxembourg lightly and indication to that effect has already been leaked in the Indian Press, although no official statement has been made. The Government of Belgium has already voiced its opposition to the stand taken by France and Luxembourg..</b>
if the europeans dont allow laxmi mittal to buy arcelor now, then in the near future, mittal steel will force arcelor into bankrupcy. and that'd be a bigger slap on europe's face than this p[roposed acquisition.
Mittal's touch (aka Midas touch) turns everything in to steel.

Mittal's power lies in growth and market valuation of his shares. Unless he has an excellent growth story for share markets, his share price might hit south.

That's problem with a conventional industry like steel.

Arcelor or not, MIttal is on prowl. He has to be on aggressive look outs if he has to maintain his share value.

In present xenophobic atmosphere in EU, it is doubtful that he will be successful with Arcelor.

However, he still controls only 5% of steel as of now and there will be enough opportunities for him. With Arcelor, he can control top two markets USA and EU and his dream of becoming 'Ford Motors' of steel will be accomplished.

It would be interesting to see the next line of Indian entrepreneurs making moves.

Watch out for Infosys, Wipro, Ranbaxy, TCS, Bharti, AVBirla, Telcos, ICICI, Pharma companies, Infrastructure companies, IT companies, BPOs, Biotechs,.............

As Indian economy moves towards robustness and Indian companies by sheer weight of their success in Indian market with a fabulous growth story to tell (share markets love growth stories) will command astronomical values and start making moves. With Mittal showing the way, it is a matter of time before others join in.

Ambanis are too busy creating humongous all pervading corporations which will be handicap in international arena. Now competition between the brothers will keep them too busy to look internationally.

25 years ago nobody could have imagined India's economic prospects. Now with positive prospects, let us see what pleasant surprises future springs up.

200 years ago India directly or indirectly commanded more than 25% of world's GDP.

<b>The Karmic Wheel is turning again in India's favor. Let us hope that within next few years atleast it will pull out of cycle of poverty and illiteracy (0% poverty and 100% literacy). </b>
yeah 10 years ago we would have thought that the first major international player from india would be tata or birla or ambani even.

but mittal has come out of the blue and beaten them all.

the size of the indian market is so big that whoever has a monopoly in any sector in india is poised to become an international player. so i am still hopeful about th ambanis.

today mittal's takeover bid is seen as an oddity.
20 years on, it will become a most natural thing for an indian company to make foreign acquisitions.

and james joyce in my signature will be vinticated many times over by mid century.
<b>It is now only a matter of time before Shri Laxmi Narayan Mittal is successful in his efforts. The EU has already taken the stand that the Government's of the EU member states cannot enact any law which will prevent the proposed takeover. So the Government of Luxumburg has become silent on its earlier plan to amend the law , so that the takeover cannot take place. In France, the first reaction was to influence public opinion gainst the move but apparently after taking into consideration the sale prospect of French goods in the Indian market, ranging from aircraft to nuclear reactor. it is unlikely that the French Government will go against the move.</b>

<b>Get used to bids from India: WTO to France </b> <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
lets see how many of you can answer this thread with a cool head without accusing me of being a "sell-out".

what does india owe to the west??

we travel by cars, planes and trains - whcih are all western inventions.

we are using internet and computers for this forum - whcih is a western invention.

most of us dress in shirt-pants and not dhotis - and thats western.

most of us studied in english medium schools and almost all of us use english at the office.

most of the science, math and medicine we learn, use and benifit from are western inventions.

we use western legal system, use a democratic constitutional system, not rajas to govern us (tough looking at the various political dynasties like the Gandhies, this can be disputed!) etc.

so where would we be without them???

how likely is it that we could have come up with all these things on our own, had we not fallen under islam which stopped all adacemic progress in india (india was doing damned well till about 1000 AD - we knew as much science, math, medicine and astronomy as any other, and infact more than the westerners. The chief western books of astronomy, math etc till mid 1600's used to be taken from persian translations of sanskrit works).

what answer should and can we give to the world when they claim that india benifitted immensely from western science and technology and that we would have been like some backward african country without the help of "western civilization". remember this is a very tough arguement to win - i once pointed out about J.C Bose to a foreigner, and he replied. "you mean Sir J.C.Bose, who lived in the british built city of Calcutta, and used Calculus and Maxwell's equations to prove the existance of radio waves".

can we pass the entire buck to islam???

PS: as a corolarry to the original question, i ask, how come most of the inventions and developments int he world have been done by whites - when books like the "bell curve' clearly prove that indians and east asians are the smartest of peoples - apart from the jews ofcourse, who are the SMARTEST.
First let us see why the West rose to the top. Then we will be able to understand how we can also rise and become powerful.

Here is what Swami Sivananda has to say on the British:

"And, the Military Schools train the boys to be <b>punctual, to be truthful, to be honest</b> and to develop the spirit of service. The British have these qualities in abundance."

"The majority of Englishmen possess such noble qualities. They know the value of time. They know the value of the Word—<b>they stick to their promise.</b> They work sincerely. They would not evade."

So The British were morally upright, honest, had faith in God and were chivalrous.
(This is no longer true anymore)

It is the chivalry of the British officers which enabled them to conquer the world.

Now note that these are same qualities that the Vedic Rishis wanted us to cultivate. Observe the heroism of Bhishma, Arjuna, Bhima, Karna, Yuddhishthira.

Where are the Gurkulas today to train Hindu boys the virtues of chivalry, honesty and faith in Isvara?

This is the cause of our downfall.

Swami Vivekananda's dream was to revive India along these lines.
Downfall of India by Swami Sivananda:

"What do we find in these days in India?

India, the land which produced Bhishma, Drona, Bhima, Arjuna, Asvatthama, Kripa, Parasurama, and countless other chivalrous warriors, the soil which contained numberless Rajput chiefs of undaunted intrepidity, unparalleled chivalry and matchless strength, abounds now with effeminate weaklings dependent on hundreds of external factors for their sustenance.

All these people should emulate the example of the few great heroes and geniuses who are still the glory of India."
thats all nice and correct, and you are righht on the ball when u highlight the germanic virtues of the poms, and equally right when you point out the lack of those very virtues amongst indians (did you know that the impregnable Devagiri fort off Aurangabad, was also felled cos the watchman acceped a bribe from muslims and opened the gates??)...

... but however that dont answer the question.

why hasnt india invented anything, including socio-economic systems (like democracy and law - for which we still use western systems) in the last 1000 years. can we really pass the entire buck to the muslims and blame our falling to islam for this intellectual decline?? notice how even you in your post, went back to the rishi days.

on the flip side, how come the west has invented everything almost, from tangibles (cars, planes, medicine) to intangibles (democracy, courts, capitalism etc) singlehandedly??

finally how can we prove that we could have done all of those things ourselves too, had we not be captured by islamics?? could we really have done everything on our own, without the help of western civilization (WC for shortWink). if we are inded that smart and innovative, then how come we still use everything western in fields of technology and have produced almost no invention in the last 50 years??

just how much does india owe to the west?? just how obliged should we be towards them??
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->why hasnt india invented anything, including socio-economic systems (like democracy and law - for which we still use western systems) in the last 1000 years. can we really pass the entire buck to the muslims and blame our falling to islam for this intellectual decline?? notice how even you in your post, went back to the rishi days.

Ancient India did invent/discover lot of things, from medicine, mathematics, metallurgy, architecture etc...

The last 1000 years we slacked off and became lazy and inept. It is all our fault.
I never blamed Islam anywhere.

Islam is merely the symptom of the problem. The root cause is decline of Hindu valor and chivalry.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->on the flip side, how come the west has invented everything almost, from tangibles (cars, planes, medicine) to intangibles (democracy, courts, capitalism etc) singlehandedly??

Beacuse of <b>paying attention to detail.</b>
This concept is repeatedly taught in the West.

A man of higly developed concentration will turn out more work than a purely Intellectual man without proper concentration.

Indians of previous generations were lazy, inept, indisciplined and given to all kinds of irresponsible behaviour. This is the cause of our falldown.

Any attempt to enforce any sort of discipline is viewed as "Brahmanical imperialism" or "Ultra Orthodox Brahmanical fanatism".

You can see the idiotic behavoiur of Indian male students in colleges.
Except for a few studious ones, the rest of them are all good for nothing loafers.
They spend their time watching movies, teasing females, flipping throught pornographic magazines etc... And a few weeks before the exam they cram in the material and pass. This is called <b>Shudra culture.</b> India is basically a Shudrasthan now.

Compare them to the White students. They take their courses very seriously.
If they take up a task they do it right or they don't do it at all.
No question of half baked jobs here.
A white man knows when to work and when to play.

Here is Swami Sivananda on the attitude of the Indian idiots:
"Many people say that they have not got time to perform Sandhya. They have to attend several functions. This is due to their weakness and lack of good Samskaras. They do not know the glory of this divine science. <b>If they see one of their friends sitting on the banks of the river and performing Sandhya, they will begin to shout or they will play some sort of mischief."</b>

This sort of mischief mongering and taking everything as a joke is ingrained in the modern Indians.

Take a look at Indian movies. Any man representing some high ideals like an Orthodox Brahmana or a Keshadhari Sikh is shown as a sort of Buffon.

It is clearly the height of idiocy to show a honorable warrior like a Sikh as a sort of buffon.

Whereas a Gay looking loafer (Usually a muslim actor) is shown as the hero.
Despite his eve teasing behaviour.

How many white men do you see engaging in eve teasing?

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