Relax and take your time. I forwarded your dated article and yet it received a great response as below:
<With the graduation of the first batch of curriculum-trained priests in the
state, several Dalit pundits will be ready to offer their services for the
entire range of traditional Hindu rites.>
Amidst all the dismal news that crowd our papers each and every day from
countless corners of the globe, now and again we read about an uplifting event,
a cheerful episode, or a hope-giving occurrence.
Here is one such, and it must give joy to every decent human being, certainly to
all well-wishers of the Hindu world. It is one of many such bright sparks that
light up the dark dimensions of Hindu casteism.
Little by little, such landmarks will increase in number, and before we know it,
<b>there will come a generation of Hindus who will find it incredible that their
ancestors were so dumb and dark-aged that they treated each other with so much
scorn and hate in the practice of their great tradition.</b>
Such is the course of history: struggle and pain all too often, sliding
backwards now and then, many downs in its temporal march, but great peaks
periodically, when History actualizes - and not just in India - the age-old
dream of satyameva jayate!
V. V. Raman
February 3, 2005
Now read this:
<b>No temple jobs for the 100-odd Dalit graduates</b>
Amit Sharma
Lucknow, July 9: The first ever batch of Dalit graduates from
Lucknow's only training school for priests is facing employment blues
of the most humiliating kind.
Around 100 of the 1,025 students who graduated from the Uttar Pradesh
Sanskrit Sansthan this year are dalits. The consciousness of their
caste, which wasn't too evident during their three-month training, <b>is
being rubbed into their faces by those whose preserve priesthood has
been for centuries.</b>
None of them has got a job in any temple yet. And those who have been
performing rituals say they are being obstructed by Brahmins.
Ram Anuj, a dalit priest, says Brahmins forced him to abandon death
rites in a village in Jaunpur district. `I was forced to stop
because I am a dalit,'' he told The Indian Express.
`Though we too perform rituals as per Vedic traditions, we face
opposition because of our caste. None of us has been able to get a
temple job. Even performing our priest's job is tough. How are we to
earn our livelihood?''
As Mayawati cuts a swathe across Uttar Pradesh's caste hierarchy,
imposing her own brand of social engineering, these dalit priests are
learning that in their job market, it's still their caste certificate
rather than their job qualifications that matters.
Ram Samucha, another dalit priest, was similarly thrown out from
Ballia in middle of a ceremony. ``The opposition was not from my
client but from local Brahmins who told me to leave. I had no choice
because of the unified opposition,'' he said.
The opposition to dalit priests is gathering several votaries, and
vocal ones at that. The head priest of Lucknow's Durga temple, Hari
Narain Dubey, threatened self-immolation if any dalit priest was
given a job in any temple.
`We have learnt that under pressure from Chief Minister Mayawati,
temple trusts are thinking of employing dalit priests. If this
happens, all Brahmin priests will stop working in those temples,'' he
said. The state government hasn't announced â or even hinted at â any
such move yet.
`How can dalits be denied the right to perform religious
functions?'' Mahant Ramchand Paramhans, chairman of the
Ramjanmabhoomi Nyas, said from Ayodhya. ``Shabri was a dalit but Lord
Ram ate with her. When Ram did not differentiate, how we can even
think of doing so?''
The Uttar Pradesh Sanskrit Sansthan, meanwhile, is waiting for funds
to start teaching its next batch. ``We started this course on an
experimental basis, and the selection of candidates wasn't based on a
quota for dalits. But training for the next batch hasn't started
since we haven't received a government grant. We will be writing to
the UP government and the Centre,'' sansthan director Sachidanand
Pathak told The Indian Express.
end
Like me Viren, is your Hindu head now hung low? Or did you feel that the rest of the Hindu world is empty in their heads, leaving Hindu leadership to those who, as SoCals themselves call 'dung heaps riddled with dung beetles' but hispanics and nris' joyously call LA County - city of angels? <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Wat mo do I have to do to tell yu that a security council whip is wat the lousy sleepin' christian bullocks require! Huh? Tell me!
I hope you have read a post from yesterday (think it was by either Rajesh or Mudy) which pointed to a PhD graduate with double LLb working as a peon in a local university.
There's more reasons than one to hang one's head low and I welcome true reforms for <b>all</b> Indians across caste/creed/religious/ethnic/gender barriers; but not selective ones to be applied on one particular community.
excerpts of recent discussions between Kanchi Mutt devotees and Navyashastra.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I/We (NS) got a call from an ardent devotee of the mutt who is also part of the growing number of activists who are taking interest in the well-being of the mutt and it's public image. After seeing the NS website and our open letter to Kanchi that has been lying there for over two years, she hunted down mutt activists in Chennai (who sit in protest dharnas etc) and chided them for not taking NS's proposal seriously and for not responding to our plea.
She also told the mutt activists are planning to teach Rudram and Chamakam, which are Vedic chants that are traditionally NOT taught by the orthodoxy to "outsiders" to villagers near Kalavai this summer with the blessings of the Acharyas. They may also want to go further and admit "dalit" children to Vedapathshalas--if they do so--they will contact us as our proposal is still on the website. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes! Its finally happening. Soon there will be a chain reaction - and many Hindus will be learning, teaching each other and chanting these verses in unison during abishegam and in their homes. And of all the chants they chose the epic Rudram/Chamakam? - the grandest of them all, right in the heart of the vedas!
This is the breakthrough we needed; the rest will follow suit quite automatically.
If this happens, this would INDEED be a real example of reconciliation amoung
Hindus in recent history.
So did you show them your post "happy days are here again folks" ?? One that called JS and then VS "criminal, joker and trickster" ?? And where you boasted the end of smarthas ?
Maybe the response will be different if you were honest for a change ? Try, it might not be as hard as you think.
Sure I did. What made you think otherwise? In fact it served to wake everybody up. That was the point. I posted that piece in more than half a dozen forums, and if any, it was a muted angry response. Only here in IF was there quite a bit of snarling.
Let me say it again, clearly, reform or not, Rudram for the masses or not, dalits in the vedapadalasas or not, the smarthas are gone! As I said, the issues are much more than this (kanchi/smarthas/reform) as I mentioned several times previously.
No, its simply because of our loud banging on the door, and because of these scandals, that the kanchi matha devotees are making some (frantic) attempts at reconciliation.
The banging will continue, till they step aside (leave the priesthood), or leave the nation. THIS WILL NOT CHANGE. This is as honest as I can get. Blame me for everything but not for dishonesty.
So if your happy-days-are-here-again post comes up in a lot of discussion forum you wont mind, I reckon ? It will just be 'banging' right ? And you wont complain about 'misrepresentation' either right ?
BTW you were the one snarling the most - its a different story that you call it 'banging' now.
No, its simply because of our loud banging on the door, and because of these scandals, that the kanchi matha devotees are making some (frantic) attempts at reconciliation.
The banging will continue, till they step aside (leave the priesthood), or leave the nation. THIS WILL NOT CHANGE. This is as honest as I can get. Blame me for everything but not for dishonesty.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo--> Now, NS taking credit for what Acharya and matham has been doing already? Will any non NS folks - true reformers - get credit for this or is it exclusively the domain of NS? Much like "Poor and downtrodden" are the property of Missionaries, marxists and mullahs? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->However, I must apologise for not being clear. As you can see, we need to see that all Hindus, men and women, of all races in the world are eligible to become priests and serve in a temple, not just karmakanda rites. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Surely Pathma, you are not asserting there is anybody here who would have it otherwise. But just as we accept that not everybody is cut out or has the tenacity to be a doctor (long hours, even longer training) so it is that few want to enter the priesthood even were they qualified. The priesthood is certainly not an occupation at least in the Hindu religion that is a coveted profession. Au contraire, people are abandoning it in droves and i see few if any dalits beating down the doors of temples demanding they be allowed to practice this profession. The fact that priests are the lowest in the economic pecking order (even below dalits) does not help matters any.
Some Background on Arun Gandhi, the NS leader
Not only is Arun Gandhi the hindu mask of a xtian group
he is also a buddy of Nirmala Deshpande ( deshdrohi ) a pro-paki psec
NRI-SAHI shares web space with (surprise!) Akhila Raman -- Shalini Gera sponsored Ektaonline.[36] Ms. Gera is a co-author of the infantile â91-page Report Produced from 5 years of Meticulous Researchâ. NRI-SAHI is also an avatar of Vaishnava Center for Enlightenment, which happens to be based in -- you guessed it -- East Lansing, Michigan. The Center is in the forefront of many activities/mailing lists which are circulated by Raman, Dr. Angana Chatterji and Kawaja. For example, they protested visits to the U.S. by (elected) Indian leaders but of course remained speechless during Gen. Musharraf's visit to Camp David. Sterling International provides a wide array of speakers for all occasions.[37] Among its featured speakers is Arun Gandhi, grandson of the Mahatma and a close associate of Ms. Nirmala Deshpande. Mr. Kaleem Kawaja of the blatantly sectarian IMC is an ardent defender of the Taliban and General Musharraf in articles and letters to the media. But he nowwants us to believe that he is a âSecular and Harmonious Indianâ and tough critic of the Indian Muslim community. He is the chief coordinator of Deshpande's tour.
Go ahead and post my article in any forum you like Rajesh. The trolls are already doing it. It would help if the rest of my responding posts are also provided lest I am misrepresented. Regarding honesty, your uncouth comments really reflects on your integrity and self esteem.
K, Ram, nobody is interested in credit. But as you can see, they are responding to 'our' petitions.
Kaushal you are right. Nobody in this forum would have it otherwise. Everybody here would like to see these changes too. Few want to be priests, yet we must open the door for these few. That is all. But the cold showers to my views tells me 'the boys just wanna have some fun'. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You appreciate that before we can take our religion to the rest of the world and evangelise, we have to clear this up in our backyard. Because this is what is holding us back.
Regards.
Pathma
Off topic:
G. Subra, what does this mean, that Arun Gandhi is not a Hindu, that he is a christian? Who are we to tell that he is not a Hindu, when he holds himself out as such? There are many Hindus who have christian icons in their altar and Sai Baba devotees worship jesus too. What shall we do about them?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But the cold showers to my views tells me 'the boys just wanna have some fun'. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pathma, you showed up with a baton to lead a parade crucifying seer - <b>within 24 hours of media breaking the news about his arrest</b>. Devoid of any facts your glee clearly exposed both you ignorance and arrogance. So don't blame anyone else if you were the one who turned the shower tap on.
03-26-2005, 06:43 AM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2005, 08:40 PM by G.Subramaniam.)
Off topic:
G. Subra, what does this mean, that Arun Gandhi is not a Hindu, that he is a christian? Who are we to tell that he is not a Hindu, when he holds himself out as such? There are many Hindus who have christian icons in their altar and Sai Baba devotees worship jesus too. What shall we do about them?
-----
These other hindus are simply idiots who are not anti-hindu like Arun Gandhi
Whereas Arun Gandhi is a prominent member of Promise of India
a muslim dominated group that wants 'secularism' just for India
and not for muslim countries and Arun Gandhi was also heavily involved in the
anti-Modi visa campaign
In this example let me cite Sri Sri Ravishankar
He does Jesus Bhajans which I strongly object to
But unlike Arun Gandhi, he came to the AAHOA convention and in his speech he defended Modi
He is a Tamil writer, not a fanatic
Useless. That was how his mother had described him when he was 12. One cannot help but wonder how she would have felt had she lived to see her son bagging the country's most prestigious literary award the Jnanpith. That recognition for D Jayakanthan, only the second Tamil writer next to Akilan, to be chosen for the country's highest literary prize, might have taken time to come and he too might not read too much into it, but for the admirers of the pioneer in contemporary Tamil literature it has nevertheless given the satisfaction that they have been yearning for, for years.
So, how does the septuagenarian look at his travel through the literary realm? News Today sought to find out from the writer himself.
Q: How does Jayakanthan, the famous writer, look at his mother's description now? After all, she had called you 'useless' in her letter to your uncle, requesting him to groom you. Hadn't she?
A) Her remarks were borne out of fear. A mother has confidence in her children but at the same time is anxious. I was only 12 then. I understood her fears and made up my mind to dispel them.
Q) Your grandfather believed in Suyamariyathai Iyakkam (Periyar's Self-Respect Movement). One of your uncles was a hardcore Communist and another a typical Gandhian. You grew up amid those following such contrasting ideologies. Did you face any difficulty in choosing your path?
A) It is a typical Indian way to integrate different ideologies and find a common path, one without confrontation. I must thank my people for it.
Q) When you were 24, you confronted Periyar directly on his atheist preachings. Are you a theist?
A) I believe in people and people believe in God.
Q) Is there any link between Communism and atheist sentiments?
A) Communists deny the existence of God, but people in large believe in Him. For us, believing people is more important. So I think the Communists are wrong in a way.
Q) Your views on some magazines' charge that you nurture a lot of anti-Tamil sentiments... ?
A) I am not mad about Tamil. Neither am I a Tamil fanatic. But I have greater affinity to it than any of those who know the language. I am the authority of my language, not Ramadoss (PMK leader), let him mind this. Those friends (apparent reference to PMK men) greeted me. This is my expression of thanks. You see, civility is very important. Tamilians should know it. Ramadoss also seems to be under the grip of Tamil fanaticism. It will do him good to break out of it.
Q: Even Tamilians do not have fluency in the language. Under such circumstances, do you still think that teaching of the language should not be made compulsory here?.
A) Nothing should be imposed and cannot be. I firmly believe in it. Language does not get learnt through imposition. Minds should be open to receive it.
Q) You once said our country progressed due to Varnasrama Dharma. But it is blamed by many for the disparities in our society...
A) No one knows anything about Varnasrama Dharma. It does not exist now, but debates alone continue. There is no point in accusing our ancestors. Just address the problems that you perceive are a fallout of it.
Trying to go to the roots of it will only add to the problems. Leave it.
Q) Many rationalists feel disappointed over your support to Kanchi Sankaracharya?
A) They are not progressive thinkers. Those who abuse others cannot be progressive. The propaganda unleashed against the Seer was malicious. Some make a life out of doing such things and my duty is to say it is wrong. Those who level such charges do not want him to be a person of integrity even if he were. If he is proven innocent, they will next target Adi Sankara, and later Lord Shiva as a scoundrel. I do not want to argue with them. We have to have be discerning and see through what ever gets said. Epporul yar yar vai ketpinum ap porul mei porul kanum Arivu Vendum.
Q: In the midst of the craze for cinema and teleserials, where do short stories and novels stand?
A) Writing should not be undertaken for 'reception'. Good work will be received well. What can be sold in large sacks is only salt but not diamonds.
Q) To what extent has Subramanya Bharathi influenced you?
A) I am Bharathi. Think that Bharathi has born again as Jayakanthan. (Just an Imagination. Isn't it nice, he laughs). I dedicate the laurels I have achieved so far to Bharathi. Just as Muslims dedicate everything to God, all Tamil writers should dedicate their literary fame to Bharathi.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Q) Many rationalists feel disappointed over your support to Kanchi Sankaracharya?
A) <b>They are not progressive thinkers. Those who abuse others cannot be progressive. The propaganda unleashed against the Seer was malicious. Some make a life out of doing such things and my duty is to say it is wrong. Those who level such charges do not want him to be a person of integrity even if he were. If he is proven innocent, they will next target Adi Sankara, and later Lord Shiva as a scoundrel.</b> I do not want to argue with them. We have to have be discerning and see through what ever gets said. Epporul yar yar vai ketpinum ap porul mei porul kanum Arivu Vendum. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Mar 25 2005, 06:52 PM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Mar 25 2005, 06:52 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Devoid of any facts your glee clearly exposed both you ignorance and arrogance. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well Viren, the charges are there, the bail is there, the approver is there. What more facts do you want? I was simply right from the beginning! Soon the seers will be paraded in a court of law. So where is the ignorance and arrogance? I think you have gone into a state of denial! The cold showers are simply emotional reactions, an indication of unwillingness to admit I was right and there is mud on your faces. So the comments.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Not just ignorance and arrogance - dishonesty at its best.
Pathma,
Thanks Pathma. Will do my part. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Much obliged Rajesh. <b>Well, let us rumble!</b> Dont run away or close the thread, [edited]. Did anyone ever tell you that you see the best and worst of yourself in others? It is always fun to engage the snivelling idiot sitting on a dung heap, sniffing lovingly and referring to it as LA County, the king of the hill. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Do you have anything to add to my post on recent kanchi initiatives? You usually dont contribute any views or suggestions, just sarcasm. In fact, I dont recall having a productive conversation with you. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have made so many, many piercing and challenging comments and yet, Rajesh, you let it blithly pass and unchallenged. So many insults and yet... Others would think that you are thick. I am beginning to feel sorry.
Now unless you have something to say on seer issues, why you dont you just run along and go bother someone else? Seer issues only, mr. absent minded moderator! <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Well Viren, the charges are there, the bail is there, the approver is there. What more facts do you want? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only fact I want from you is the <b>fact that you had on the day after diwali</b>. Don't start playing Monday morning quarter back now - that too with selective interpretation of the case.
And, I see you have slept through 20+ some odd pages of seer arrest thread posted by forumites here - I'm not surprised.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think you have gone into a state of denial!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very much possible <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> Pakis have said the same <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> The cold showers are simply emotional reactions, an indication of unwillingness to admit I was right and there is mud on your faces. So the comments.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you have yet to tell me about the activities of NS groupies on forcing Jayalalitha to act on this 'silent war' that you claim to be on going. Weren't you the one saying '<i>Jayalalitha can do no wrong</i>' ? Might help wake us all up from the 'state of denial', or the mud on my face could be the one you've have been raking around here? Hope you clear that up first.
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> Pakis have said the same <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->