• 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic
2. I seemed to have been dozing, Radha Rajan already said all these things last year:


found via christianizingbharatanatyam.blogspot.com/2011/09/leela-samson-romilla-thapar-prakriti.html

Quote:Synergy of Kalakshetra, Prakriti Foundation and Romilla Thapar [color="#800080"](Of course Romila Thapar.)[/color]

10/01/2010 13:38:44

Radha Rajan

After a very long while I made the time yesterday to go back to Kalakshetra to listen to one of my dearly beloveds at a book launch ceremony.

The book was 'Vaikunta Perumal Temple at Kanchipuram' by D Dennis Hudson. Dennis Hudson deserved better than Prakriti Foundation and Thapar. A remarkable book which testifies to Hudson's immense and passionate involvement with the temple, its history and above all the sculpture of the temple and a burning desire to plumb the depth of history in each panel. A truly remarkable book which everyone of us who visits the temple now can use as a guide to inform ourselves about the breathtaking beauty and meaning of the temple.

The Prakriti Foundation did Dennis Hudson's magnum opus unforgivable injustice by getting Thapar to release the book and deliver the third Dennis Hudson Memorial lecture in Kalakshetra. Dennis Hudson's wife for reasons best known to her allowed Prakriti Foundation to take charge of publishing this magnificent book.

This critique of Kalakshetra, Prakriti and Thapar is interlinked and perforce personal because all three violated something fundamental to classicism - the essential Hinduness, particularly the bhakti that inspired classicism and inspires continuing adherence to the tenets of classicism in our Sanskrit and Tamil literature and classicism in our arts and performing arts - Carnatic Music, Bharatanatyam, Kucchipudi, Odissi, Mohiniyattam and Manipuri. - bhakti or worship.

The building of our temples and the sculptures enriching them are also infused with classicism and therefore infused with bhakti. It follows therefore that if one has to understand Carnatic Music, our classical dance forms, our temples and temple architecture and sculpture, either with a sense of creativity or intellectually, the person must understand bhakti - not superficially and not as a practioner of the abrahamic faiths, but as a Hindu; the person may be an Indian or a non-Indian Hindu but he or she must be infused with bhakti and respect for bhakti to understand classicism. I have to be worshipful if I have to express the classicism inherent in our performing arts and in our classical literature. An irreverend mind which is incapable of worship or bhakti, can only produce sterile and soulless creations of Hindu themes. Classicism is also God-centric and does not touch upon human themes except as bhaktas. Keeping them God-centric has helped to protect them from the defilement and diminishing which would be more realistic perhaps but not elevating. The objective of classicism is to elevate the Hindu mind to God through bhakti. We must not lose sight of this to understand why I find this synergy between Prakriti, Kalakshetra and Thapar both natural and distasteful.

Without the Hinduness, without the bhakti, merely learning the notes or the steps, reading the sacred literature just because one can read and understand Tamil or Sanskrit, and performing it or critiquing it, makes the rendition, the product, sterile. There is no atma in the rendition, in the words.

If the Prakriti Foundation had a sense of classicism inherent in Hindu tradition, if it had felt bhakti, it would not have sung paens of praise to Leela Samson the incumbent director of Kalakshetra nor would it have imported Thapar to Chennai for the book launch.

Let me take all three one by one.

Kalakshetra was founded by Rukmini Devi and her theosophist husband George Arundale. Kalakshetra is a product of the theosophists who set up shop in Chennai in the second half of the nineteenth century - courtesy Olcott and Madam Blavatskaya.

Rukmini Devi's father Neelakanta Sastri, like hundreds of Tamil Brahmins who took to english education and migrated to cities abandoning their ancestral villages, was entranced by the new cult - theosophy. Theosophy was a white race hotch-potch brewed by those who were disenchanted by Christianity's inability to accomodate metaphysical and spiritual experiences not in line with the Talmud or the Bible.

We therefore had the American HS Olcott, the Russian Madam Blavatskaya and the British Annie Besant seeking refuge in theosophy while Madeline Slade sought refuge in Gandhi and the Turkish-Egyptian Jew Mirra Alfassa sought refuge in Aurobindo. This writer beleives that neither Aurobindo nor Gandhi exemplified Hindu dharma in its titality or essence; at best they embodied a small aspect of our religious legacy.

The most important thing for idiot Hindus to know and understand is that all of them HAD TO SEEK PHYSICAL REFUGE from their native countries and from their disenchantment only in Hindu bhumi. They were all heretics and they could not live the religious lives they desired in their own countries. At least not in the nineteenth century. their countries would have tolerated atheism of the abrahamic variety but not a spirituality rooted in some other religion. That is why they burned men and women in the stakes and that is why they had the inquisitions.

The most striking thing about this confluence of upper caste, english educated hindus and the white disenchanted christians and jews was that while the white christians could forsake christianity, they could not take to the difficult road to becoming a Hindu where there is no refuge in faith in a prophet or a messiah. You and you alone were responsible for your acts and you had to bear the result or karma of your acts; sometimes your children and their children also had to bear the fruits depending how great was your punya or paapa. Accepting total responsibility for your actions was a difficult alternate to confession and absolution of sins offered by the abrahamic religions.

Buddhism was the half-way mark in this transition because while it derived from sanatana dharma it had aspects of organized religions in its religious structures or clerical hierarchy. It also had a human being who could be fixed in time around whom the cult was built. and that is why Buddhism is the prefered religion of the disenchanted white christians and jews. Buddhism is also today the half-way mark for those seeking to de-hinduise this nation. Chrsitian missionaries, the church and historically islam has penetrated the buddhists everywhere as the beginning towards islamising it or christianising it.

Theosophy was no religion; it was an escapist way of life around disenchanted white (former) christians and jews. Rukmini Devi married the theosophist George Arundale much before she re-discovered bharatanatyam for india. She also met and was inspired by the russian ballerina Anna Pavlova who inspired and motivated her to rediscover bharatanatyam also known as sadirattam.

Bharatanatyam rooted in Bharatamuni's natyasastra, was preserved in our temples by our devadasis. Hindus owe our devadais a great debt of gratitude that notwithstanding their difficult lives, they nurtured and preserved this great art form. And because this was nurtured by our devadasis and because this was performed in our temples, bharatanatyam and the music that gave it its soul and rhythm retained its bhakti and religious fervor even in difficult times.

Theosophy like the arya samaj, semiticised hindu religion. The intelliegent hin du does not need explanations here. The most demanding was that their adherents should give up worship of the murti, give up rituals. Abstraction is erroneously considered the ultimate in intellectual conception or the perfection of ascetism. Maybe so but it is also the most sussceptible to perversion and subversion, both. Leela Samson who took over Kalakshetra claims she is a Jew. The complete de-Hinduising of Kalakshetra has been achieved.

Adi sankara realised the dangers of emphasising abstraction over worship of murtis and ascetism over sringara (the worship and celebration of the beautiful) in advaita and that is why he composed the saundarya lahiri. that is why he sang of Sarada and Annapurna and Shiva. Abstraction is breathtaking but murti worship is elevating. Abstraction is best reached through bhakti and not through the intellect.

Rukmini Devi may have rediscovered bharatanatyam for us but she also introduced elements of theosophy into her school Kalakshetra. The Besant School started and run by george arundale and the KFI school started by J Krishnamurti also with theosophist roots all suffer from the same malaise - the abstraction and eventual erasing of hinduness in their thinking, the institutions they create, their writings and their speech. They are not anti-Hindu in the beginning; they are merely the abstract expression of theosophy and perhaps buddhism and even some esoteric aspects of hinduism. But they eventually become anti-Hindu because they partner the explicitly anti-Hindus and non-Hindus and despise those who are angered by the gradual de-hinduisation of their understanding and interpretation of Hindu arts, literature and texts.

It is this perversion which has given rise to yoga is not hindu, meditation is not hindu, om is not hindu, ayurveda is not hindu and now bharatanatyam is not swaroopa hindu but aroopa hindu. It is also the beginning of deepavalli is secular, navaratri is secular, Pongal is secular and other idiocies. They want the hindu frills without the hindu content.

Leela samson when she stated that she only removed the 'swarupa' symbols of hinduism from kalakshetra in the true spirit of Rukmini Devi's theosophist spirit, was speaking the truth and the whole truth. The abstraction and diminishing of worship of hindu murtis began in Rukmini Devi's mind. You see this in the children coming out of Krishnamurti schools, you see it in the composition of students learning the performing arts in kalakshetra now under Leela samson. what Jiddu krishnamurti spoke was the essence of vedanta and he invoked the enquiring mind so typical of the best methods of Hindu learning in our guru-sishya parampara and gurukulams of our rishis but he disdained to call his thoughts or its articulation Hindu.

The Prakriti Foundation in its introduction yesterday to the book launch function sang an ode to Samson when it said Leela Samson has opened the kalakshetra to new dimensions. Thapar echoed the sentiment when she said the task of historians today (what she meant was historians like her) was to push the frontiers of history. Now what in Thapar's name does it mean? But being a bear with little brain I dodnt understand such high funda oratory. except to know that Leela Samson is pushing the frontiers of Rukmini Devi's kalakshetra as she conceived it in 1939.

But when Thapar mocked Hindu understanding of Time as being cyclical and thererfore ahistorical and only a fantasy (yes she used the word fantasy to describe cyclical time), when she mocked at our yugas and kalpa, when she mocked at our history, when she declared confidently that all vedic hymns were composed by brahmins, when she spoke of something called vedic hinduism and then puranic hinduism, when she said cyclical time was invented by 'Hindu bards and mythmakers' and when the idiots in raw silk and long ear-rings laughed in appreciation then I knew that the poison injected by Tagore, Jiddu krishnamurti, Olcott and Blavatsky, Arundale and now Samson is losing its potency. Because when I walked out precisely 8 minutes after Thapar began her drivel, a dozen others walked out behind me. They were probably waiting for someone to start the exodus. I came back and found great peace of mind in doing what Hinduism exhorts me to do - feed the hungry. I came back to my street animals and knew that Samson and Thapar and the captive idiot audience which laughed, were yugas and Kalpas away from understanding hindu dharma or its tradition. Hindus must know and understand the causes for their degeneration if they have to put these people in their places.

It is not enough to wear the mayilkann veshti and angavastram when you sing an ode to Leela Samson, it is not enough to wear elegant silk and diamond earirings as expressions of refined brahminical culture when you express disdain for brahmins and all that they represented, it is not enough to wear long thin red bindi like the srivasihnava women simply as a fashion statement if your heart does not melt when you worship that murti. If you cannot bring tears to my eyes when you dance or sing you have to be reborn again and again and again if you have to attain the fulness of MS Subbalakshmi or Palaghat Raghu.

All their sartorial elegance is soulless and sterile. What i saw yesterday in Kalakshetra was the Chennai counterpart of the Delhi IIC chatterati. There was so scholarship, no mastery no wisdom in that gathering. It was all snobbery and no soul. Kalakshetra, Prakriti and Thapar deserve each other. But Dennis Hudson's book deserved bette

I don't agree with everything above or at times the particular stance taken in the arguments against various things, but at least Rajan brings up a lot of matters that need to have been brought up. Somewhere.

Quote:Buddhism is also today the half-way mark for those seeking to de-hinduise this nation.
Various Hindu things have regularly been donated to either Buddhism or Jainism in order to

1. remove such things from Hinduism (nowadays the Hindu Tirukkural is often claimed as Jain, yet in my mother's schooling period, Tiruvalluvar's Tirukkural was still stressed in DMK Tamizh Nadu as having been a secular Tamizh work - and Tamizhs tried to advertise it as a secular work to Ali Sina some years back - for all that Tirukkural is now declared with equal fervour to have been "Jain all along". One can see the evolution of such argumentation taking place all the time, complete with christianism now claiming Tiruvalluvar and his Tirukkural), and

2. to declare that Hinduism was not the original religion of natives in various parts of India (this is particularly the argument made for the south), before christianism will wedge itself in) and

3. to argue along such lines as "Since Buddhism borrowed a lot of its ideas from the Gita and Upanishads <or insert other Hindu sacred text/characters/whatever>", that "therefore Gita was owing to Buddhism" (never mind that the direction of travel was the other way). And Romila Thapar - was it - declaring in typical crypto-christo fashion that most Hindu temples were "originally" Buddhist. And that then creates an opening for christoterrorist Father Clooney - busy inculturating on Shri Vaishnavam - to declare that several important Vaishnava temples "were actually christian originally", by the same argument (via the "buddhism, jainism and christianism were the original religions of the south of India").

Everything Hindu is tossed up in the air for everyone else to grab.
3. Found via the christianizingbharatanatyam.blogspot.com/


On "christian carnatic" music. Full of applauding comments.

The blog owner comments:


[color="#0000FF"]I disagree with you that Carnatic music should confine itself to singing about Hindu gods. I see no reason why this should be the case, just because the bulk of the music of this genre is devoted to Hinduism.[/color] Christian Carnatic music has not reached the heights that compositions of Dikshitar, or Thyaraja, or Syama Shastri have attained, but that is not because of the content of the music. It is still a genre that needs developing, that has not had a great composer who has come along and created sublime Christian Carnatic music. It should be nurtured and encouraged, and then it will truly flower.Where is the question of imitating? [color="#0000FF"]Christians have lived in India for 2000 years, and Carnatic music traditions are as much theirs as the Hindus'.[/color]

Posted by: Kamini | October 14, 2010 at 08:33 AM

1. "only the bulk of the music of this genre is devoted to Hinduism" <- That's all the Hinduness that the blog hostess can find in Carnatic music.

2. "Christians have lived in India for 2000 years, and Carnatic music traditions are as much theirs as the Hindus'." <- Next to how christians have *not* lived in India for anywhere near 2000 years, apparently all that is required for alien ideologies to claim the religious traditions of others is... is being in India for x amount of years.

So by that "logic", if the alien parasite sticks around in India long enough, Hindu Kovils and Temple lands are "as much christians' as the Hindus'"?

The first sane comment (which the above comment was in response to):


I think I have heard this priest in our local television channel,where he made a devastating attempt to do a kacheri. He cannot say ten swaroms at a row. The only evidence I could see that he was a student of Yesudas was his beard. That is often a good disguise for ignorance.

I am a Christian. In the history of the Church in Kerala,I don't find any Karnatic music experts. Yesudas never tried that mistake,because he knows the traditions of Karnatic music.The Keerthanas are all praises of Hindu Gods,and it needs tremendous devotion for it to come out.It was not meant for Christian church recitals.Christians in India imitate many traditional styles,and incorporate them in to their practices. I have heard some of these poor attempts of praises to Mother Mary in Karnatic ragas,to my utter despair.

I always wanted to tell this priest to stick on to his job,and not to try to dirty the only pure tradition we keep in India.

By the way,did it really come from your heart?

Posted by: Dr Antony | October 09, 2010 at 10:24 PM

The best comment at the link - by George Thundiparambil again:

Quote:[color="#0000FF"]Ms. Kamini Dandapani's blog post is a revelation of how gullible and naive Hindus are and can still be, and how easily they can be deceived by the chameleon-like activities of professional Christians. I say "professional" because the processes of cultural appropriation are invariably done by the clergy who are trained and assigned according to their skills to do what they are doing and devote 24/7 in propagating their religion. Apparently Ms. Dandapani has also probably never heard of "Christian yoga", "Christunatyam", etc. It is most likely that she also doesn't know what Christianity exactly is. For that one has to study it with the eyes open.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Bold bit is a VERY important point.)[/color]

Sadly, the vulnerable situation the Hindus find themselves in (dwindling numbers, dis-empowered in their own country of origin, etc.) may be attributed to the characteristic Hindu naivety as exemplified by Ms. Dandapani. Cultures who similarly thought in these lines are no longer on this earth to talk about their culture.

Long after Hindus and Bharatanatyam are gone and buried, with the earth and dharma destroyed and burnt, Ms. Dandapani can find relief now in the thought that there will be Christian padres left to conduct the last carnatic concert on the prophesied doomsday.
I am not saying this because of any irrational hatred I nurse for Christians or Christianity - most of my beloved relatives are still Christian, carrying on out of convenience or ignorance or arrogance. There is much evidence on my side if one cares to stick out her neck and look around.

Christmas and Easter were once pagan festivals in Europe around 1500 years ago, but none of the pagans remain to talk about them. How many people living on earth know that these were pagan festivals that had nothing to do with Christians or Jesus. The birthday of Jesus (Christmas) was celebrated by all early Christians on January 7th and is still celebrated by many Eastern Christians on that day. The date changed when the "faith" came to Europe. They changed the date to usurp the winter solstice celebration of the pagans and fixed it on December 24th, one of the dates in the traditional festival. Easter was the festival of the pagans at the spring equinox, associated with the moon goddess Aster. Now both festivals are patented and celebrated all over the earth by the Christians.

In 1599, the Goan bishop of that time, Alexis Menezes, originally a Portuguese, chaired an acculturation program among the Eastern Christians of Kerala, known in history as the Diamper Synod, where they were asked not to follow Hindu arts, crafts, customs, rituals and festivals and made a long list of prohibited things. After the second Vatican Council in 1962, when the church made a series of U-turns to accommodate a discontented people and new knowledge, they made provisions for the regional churches to start appropriating local customs to make it more attractive for the laity and to facilitate proselytizing among peoples like the Hindus.

Christianity in its core is not at all different from Islam, perhaps a bit more stringent. Medieval European Christianity was much more evil than the modern-day Taliban. One only has to open the history books to find out. The Church liberalism is only a show for people living in the West, because otherwise they cannot wield the influence they still have, like having a seat at the UN and in all countries as diplomats. It was the fascist Mussolini who made Vatican a state. Inside the Indian churches, the Christians systematically tarnish the Hindu religion and on the outside, are taking over one Hindu institution after the other (like Kalakshetra). Many Christian orders have shed their white cassocks and wear saffron robes. Earlier they had shed their customary black for white cassocks when they found that Hindus ran away seeing the black outfit. The white cassock was adopted only for India.

For me, who has seen both worlds, Christianity in all its forms is sheer contamination of the mind and environment and distilled evil. If Ms. Dandapani has any doubt, I am at her disposal to clear that.

Posted by: George Thundiparambil | September 26, 2011 at 10:40 AM
I don't know whether islamics are trying to imitate Jesuit Clooney (combined with Zakir Naik declaring the Vedas are talking about allah),

or whether these guys are really aiming for nothing more than mere communal harmony albeit in a misguided manner. <- 2nd is unlikely.

I quite suspect it's (1) since It's Islam plus remember the 1st commandment that applies to muslims. I doubt they could be playing this game to dilute their own religion.

Also, the final para indicates intent: they're hoping to get *Hindu* students, no doubt to lead the Hindus from a] "comparing/finding similarities btw Hindus' religion and islam" to b] "see, you want to convert to islam, since it is obviously the culmination of Hinduism, as seen in our monotheistic explanations of the Gita and Vedam".

But the red bit may be the funniest thing seen all year. Please do Not read it while eating. There's the very real hazard you may choke on account of being seized by a fit of hysteria.


Quote:Quran with Bhagavad Gita in a communal harmony class .

Monday, 21 November 2011 13:17 IANS | [color="#0000FF"]Varanasi[/color]

Holding the Quran in one hand and the Bhagavad Gita in the other, Mukhtar Ahmad conducts "a class of communal harmony" at a madrassa in Uttar Pradesh's Varanasi district to enable students to draw similarities between Islam and Hinduism.

Welcome to Bahrul-Uloom madrassa (Islamic seminary) in Chittanpura town where like Ahmad several other Muslim teachers are involved in imparting lessons of brotherhood and unity to inculcate "moral values" in their students.

"Our main objective behind teaching Hindu scriptures along with the Quran is to undertake a comparative study of the holy books of the two religions to enable our students to draw similarity between Islam and Hinduism," Ahmad, a teacher at the Islamic seminary, told IANS.

"By drawing similarity between the two religions, students will be able to correlate the teachings of Quran with those of the Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu ancient text, which in turn would enable them to respect the two religions in the same manner," he added.

The Hindu scriptures were introduced one year ago in the syllabi of the Behroom-Uloom madrassa with an aim to spread communal harmony and brotherhood. The private Islamic seminary was set up in 1964.

"The management always asked the teachers to come up with ideas and suggestions for making students good in academics, improving their performance and inculcating moral values," 58-year-old Ahmad said.

"In our discussions, we unanimously agreed that apart from grooming students and preparing them for future challenges, our other main objective was to churn out good human beings from the seminary," he said.

"A few seminary teachers proposed to introduce the comparative study of the Bhagavad Gita with the Quran that was already being taught to students. The sole objective was to make students imbibe the teachings of the religious books," he added.

Today, not only the Bhagavad Gita, [color="#FF0000"]the four Vedas -- Rig, Sama, Yajur and Atharva[/color] -- are taught to the students along with subjects like Hindi, English and Computer Science.

[color="#800080"](Wait wait wait. An islamic school, "teaching" the Vedas? How? Using the colonial translations? One can "learn" that in alien schools, or by reading alien books by oneself. But that's not the Vedam.

Any looney Hindu parents who send their kids to this school on account of such a "syllabus", Deserve It.)[/color]

[color="blue]The teachers first read the scriptures themselves for four-five months and then impart the knowledge to the students.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Great! That means I too can teach the Vedam next - yeah right - if I just read it for 4-5 months as well. Hey, and to think I can have the title of a Chaturvedi too! Just by reading/studying. It's soooo easy, who knew?

Actually since even that's too much for me, I think I'll just take the shortcut of reading the blurb on the backcovers of each. There ARE blurbs on the backcovers for the R, Y, S and A vedas, right???)[/color]

Seminary officials said the Hindu scriptures were initially introduced in the classes equivalent to 10-12 standards. But now they also form the course content of lower classes.

There are over 2,500 students -- both boys and girls -- enrolled in different classes of the madrassa.

"While we admit boys only till Class 8, we have the provision for enrolling the girls till Class 12," said Hadis Alam, another teacher at the madrassa.

[color="#800080"](Interesting that they want to keep girls longer...? Especially when read along withSmile[/color]

[color="#0000FF"]As there is no Hindu student at the madrassa, the Islamic seminary officials believe they would soon get their first batch of Hindu students with the introduction of Hindu scriptures in the syllabi.

Ahmad said the location of the madrassa in a Muslim-dominated area could be preventing the Hindus from sending their kids there.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Uh, this is Varanasi. Where I'm sure Hindus can learn the BG and the Vedam from their own kind. I don't know why these muslims imagine anyone Hindu would be sending their kids to learn these things - particularly the Vedas supposedly - from muslims. This isn't babble/koran study... Nor is Hindu transmission of the Vedam the same as the indological method of "studying" it, i.e. the "read and interpret away" method.)[/color]

"But the introduction of Hindu scriptures in the syllabi has been considerably appreciated by our Hindu brothers. We believe we would soon have Hindu students seeking admission in Bahrul-Uloom," he added.
Last statements explains the intent alright. If the syllabus was only for the muslim students at the school, I'd have thought these people were sincere. But it's clearly aimed at roping in the Hindus of the place.

And the fact that this is Varanasi explains the method adopted for the region and the target population, as well as the choice of literature (it's the Vedas even, right). I think islam may at last be trying christian methodology.

Hindus don't *want* inter-religious comparisons. They want to be Left Alone. I know it's hard for christoislamis to comprehend, but Hindus don't *want* missionising. Neither the conversion-by-sword method nor the carrot technique of inculturation/gradually declaring that christoislam is what the Vedas/Gita are "actually" about. So if these muslims were serious about harmony, they'd dump islam and return to their ancestral Hindu religion. There are no similarities between the two. There's only the deception of it (even if this were - at best - no more than self-deception in this case).

Like Julian said: christians should not be allowed to teach the Hellenistic literature.

Same applies here: christoislamics cannot be allowed to teach Hindu literature. They do not know it and are likely to subvert it (probably by intent). Until they properly revert, they could at best only read it the way aliens do: i.e. without any point to the exercise, or any success.


Quote:krishna nee begane baaro...

jun 6th, 2012 CE

yet another reason why i like karnataka: this song was composed at the great krishna temple in udupi.


and k s chitra sings a very good version of it. do you know a better one?

Posted by nizhal yoddha at 6/06/2012 02:07:00 AM 3 comments Links to this post

Labels: carnatic music, krishna

And the comments

Quote:3 Comments

Close this window

Jump to comment form 1 – 3 of 3

OverTheHill said...

Going backward in time, try

...Palghat K V Narayanaswamy (The man with the silken voice)

...M S Subbalakshmi (channeling the divine)

and, harking back to an almost forgotten era

...B S Raja Iyengar, who used to sing at in a voice that would go through the roof, a full octave higher than us lesser mortals, a sort of male soprano.

BTW if you visit Bangalore, watch the show dAsa vANI on Sankara Channel, it's all about PurandaradAsa and his compositions and done in a folksy conversational style by a first-rate expositor accompanied by a vocalist with violin and tabla/mridangam support.

6/06/2012 9:28 AM

nizhal yoddha said...

thank you, overthehill. i am, alas, totally ignorant about carnatic music, but as i age, i find it to be more appealing. i will try and find the versions from the great singers you have mentioned.

i wonder if rajan parrikar is reading this, and can give us some insight too.

ignorant as i am about classical music, i find that sometimes it is amazingly evocative. i once listened to a thumri, and i had never even heard the word thumri before, and it affected me greatly emotionally -- i suppose this is what 'rasa' means: the evocation of emotion in the viewer/listener.

i also find that certain saxophone riffs -- there is one in pink floyd 'shine on you crazy diamond part IX' and another in phil collins' 'one more time' -- affect me deeply.

6/07/2012 9:44 PM

OverTheHill said...

There's a lot of math in Carnatic music, so it should appeal to the comp scientist/elec engr in you.

The Katapayadi system of naming raagas is a neat example. (More generally the system uses letters to represent numbers and serves as both a mnemonic aid and a coding mechanism. Maadhava used it in his work.)

Here is a delightful corollary of its use in raaga naming: based on the system the raaga Simhendramadhyamam should really be written Sihmendramadhyamam- Fred Damerau redux.

6/08/2012 8:55 AM

Who doesn't love Krishna Nee Begane Baaro? (I think it means "Krishna Nee Vegamaa Vaa" in Tzh.)


1. Did Nizhal Yoddha just peddle Chitra the cine singer, known from Kandukondain x 2's Kannamoochi song? You know, the Chitra who famously also released a minimum of 2 jeebus albums, and gawd knows how many more? (Her releases are generally under the Manorama publishing label, which I think is christian and related to the Manorama christo-mouthpiece in Kerala.)

In any case, I had heard the rendition of Krishna Nee Begane Baaro by the Chitra I speak of lots of times. (Recorded off MusicIndiaOnline a long time back, since other versions weren't easily accessible and I had no money to purchase quality music and so had to listen to whatever was available. The only other version I remember on MIO was Yesudas', whose singing always annoyed me: has a patronising, terribly cliche and over-acting male voice, not my cup of tea, even since his Sindhu Bhairavi days where he overdid the Jaya Jaya Swamin. Though I never held his cliched voice and singing against him, in more recent years I found out he also releases christian pseudo "carnatic" albums - being a hardcore inculturator, so too his son - and uses Hindu terms for his jeebus songs, like Swarga and Deva etc.)

Anyway, said Chitra's version of KNBB - like all her attempts at Hindu songs - is a light music rendering, a cine sound, not actual Karnatic at all. She's classically-trained (but most of Indian cine music was based on Hindu classical until a recent decade), but that doesn't mean she can sing Karnatic.

I'm really hoping the "K.S. Chitra" recommended by the Rajeev2004 blog is another being: one who doesn't peddle jeebus and whose KNBB *is* Karnatic. Else he just peddled christian inculturation to his large number of readers... :yikes:

2. Now to what's more important to me personally:

OverTheHill suggested Subbulakshmi - though he misspelled her name - for Krishna Nee Begane Baaro. Wait wait wait. I am *sure* I own all her officially released albums and individual tracks - including live performances - and I have *never* heard her Krishna Nee Begane Baaro (not counting the extremely low quality - barely audible - bootleg/fan-recording of her live performance at Udupi, which I also have, but which specifically doesn't count since it's hard to properly enjoy). I'd give a good deal of money to have an official recording of MSS' KNBB.

I hope OverTheHill didn't just "guess" that there must be an [official ] MSS version of KNBB, the way he guessed (wrongly) at the spelling of her name. And if he's telling the truth, is he at all going to reveal to the reader *where* to get the missing KNBB by MSS song? My life I mean my collection is not complete without it...

3. Said OverTheHill:

Quote:There's a lot of math in Carnatic music, so it should appeal to the comp scientist/elec engr in you.

All music is pure maths. It's just that you don't need to *be* a mathematician to be good at it: neither to compose in it, nor to render it, nor to appreciate/recognise its beauty. In fact, not all mathematicians are good at any of these things. However, music often appeals to mathematicians including also geniuses among the autistic.

Anecdote: a famous British physicist professor (still in his early/mid 30s I think) - IIRC cosmology is his field? - used to be a rock star in an apparently *known* rock band. (Let me guess, he owned a synthesizer... Wouldn't that be Typical.) But he seems likeable, so I guess I shouldn't make fun.
2/2 (Continued.)

4. About this that RS wrote in the context of Karnatic music:

Quote:ignorant as i am about classical music, i find that sometimes it is amazingly evocative. i once listened to a thumri, and i had never even heard the word thumri before, and it affected me greatly emotionally -- i suppose this is what 'rasa' means: the evocation of emotion in the viewer/listener.

Rasikas of Karnatic music experience more than an offical "rasa": the 8 (9?) rasas are more applicable to Hindu acting, dancing and harikatha I think than to Karnatic music/singing.

We're told there's

- vIram, Abhuta (surprise, wonderment), hAsyam (amusement),

- bhayAnaka (fear, terror), bhIbatsa (revulsion, displeasure), raudram (kopam),

- shRungAram (I think this is particularly romantic love, not the more general kind), karuNa. (And optionally: shAntam.)

- Of these, we can rule out Karnatic music causing the "rasas" of bhIbatsa, raudram, bhayam in the listener.

- Usually aabhuta, vIram and hAsyam can be ruled out too, since I'm not laughing at/amused by Karnatic music, nor do I feel "heroic" afterward (unless it's interwoven with harikatha. Or I suppose the Hanuman chalisa which is more a stotram than a Karnatic song - though I'd say dhairyam or plain energetic rather than vIram even in this case). There's a little bit of wonderment when one hears about the extent of the Gods, but not sure that's exactly what is meant with aabhuta (sounds more like an effect of harikatha).

- Except for those who feel romantically inclined toward their iShTadevas - as some Hindoos certainly do (e.g. Meera Bai) - Karnatic music is not really about bhaktas feeling romance towards the Gods.

* Some of Bharatiyar's poetic compositions are indeed about romance though, including between Hindoo humans.

* Some stotras include bits about the wondrous romance between the Divine Couples among the Gods.

* Other stotras - like a surprisingly touching one contained in The N2 - certainly concern the romantic feelings that some bhaktas feel towards their Gods - in particular Vishnu as Krishna, since that's usually his field.

Still, most Karnatic songs are not about that (so if you feel it, it's not usually the intended consequence: half the songs are about the Divine Parents being the Divine Parents, or the shishu Krishna, or the Saviours Murugan or Sita-Rama-PerumAL granting mokSha, or ... etc).

- Karunai is a unidirectional sentiment going from the Hindoo Gods towards their Hindoos, while bhakti is the reciprocation from the Hindoos to their Gods. So Hindus won't feel "karuNai" for their Gods... Ruling that out too.

- Shaantam is a possible effect of Karnatic music but is apparently not always officially seen as a rasa, so... leaving it out. (Also, shantam hasn't got so much to do with a *relationship* of listener to the subject of Karnatic songs which are the Gods. Moreover, it is an effect that can be achieved by birdsong too and hence doesn't require the sAmam or Karnatic music)

So methinks that at most - of all the official rasas - Karnatic music can occasionally evoke shRungaram in Hindoo humans... <- And I don't think most Hindoo listeners feel that, nor that most Karnatic songs even have that "rasa" as their intention. One can admit to generally being "infatuated" with the magnificence of the Gods, as one is with the universe or nature, but "romance" is a different and very particular thing. (At least, what I *think* shR^ingara means, whereas I do use the English word "romantic" for a much wider range of things.)

I think it isn't really about the rasas when it comes to Karnatic music.

What the Rasikas feel is a oneness with the music and its intent/purpose. Karnatic songs have the same goal as the SamaVedam - and are even shown to derive from the Samam: it deeply pleases the Gods and attaches the Hindoo singers and listeners to the Gods. The overarching "sentiments" are Bhakti (in the direction of Hindoo singer/listener towards the Gods), and pleasure in the reverse direction of the Gods towards the Hindus (who are already karuNai, but in any case not as evoked in the Hindoo listeners, but in the Gods listening!)

More than that, the saptaswaras are embodiments of the Hindoo Gods - e.g. various Gods and Goddesses are specifically described as not just enjoying listening to songs, but being present/embodied in the saptaswaras themselves. Consequently, for the Rasika to feel one with the swaras and raga, is a sort of... worship of the Gods.

Next to that, the lyrics of Karnatic songs are always about attachment of the Hindoos to their Gods and for imparting [accurate] knowledge of the Gods.

- Be it songs on shrI rAma by the composer famously named after KamalAmbikA's husband (i.e. TyAgarAja, Shiva's name), or songs on Krishna by PurandaradAsa and other songs on PerumAL by AnnamAchArya,

- Be it songs on devI by shyAma shAstri, a great shAkta,

- Be it songs on various Hindoo Gods by more recent composers like PApanAsam Sivam, and the composer of "koovi ayaizhthAL" (on Murugan), and their highnesses Mysore Maharaja (who mostly composed to chAmuNDI, of course) and Swathi Tirunal etc,

- Be it the sacred verses/songs of Tiruppugazh (on Murugan, Arunagirinathar I think) and Thiruppaavai (ANDAL on Krishna/Vishnu), or the songs incl virutams from Ilango Adigal's Cilappadikaaram on Krishna and other Vishnu avataras famously sung by MSS. Be it the sacred Tevaram, or sung versions of TiruvAchakam,

- Be it the songs of Muttuswami Dikshitar, another shAkta (another expert L-upasaka, who was taught knowledge of the Gods first hand by his other iShTadevam and personal Guru, The Guha himself. Hence dIkShitar's signature inserts of "Guruguha" into his songs). He composed on as many Gods as he could, e.g. the eternal favourite "angArakam-AshrayAmyahaM" to "Hariharaputra" to kShetra/kuladeva-specific songs like the melting "akhiLANDeshwarI" and "Jambupate" filled with details of the Subject Deity and Kovil's sthalapurANa. He has also made songs starting with all the "vibhakti-s" in Samskritam. MuttuswAmi, like all the other Hindoo composers, was an expert on the Gods. And that expertise/intimate knowledge of the Gods is precisely what he is passing into Hindoo listeners - making those who listen carefully into experts on the Gods as well. DikShitar was a Tamizh Hindoo living in Andhra (as many do), but he composed in Samskritam to reach as many all over India as would listen to Karnatik - including occasionally compositions in northern rAgas. And all this while still benefitting those who didn't understand the language of the lyrics but yet can appreciate the music and recognise the names of the Gods therein. He visited many kShetras (as other Hindoo composers did) to capture these along with their presiding Deities in his Karnatik songs. Such songs become mental Yatras to the sacred Teerthas of the Hindoos, so all can who can hear can get (repeated) darshanam of the Gods there. He knew that not all Hindoos had the good fortune of knowing to recite the Vedam so, being a Vedabrahmana who IIRC knew this stuff well, his whole purpose in his Navagraha Kritis was to capture the Navagraha mantras from the Vedam in sacred songs that every Hindoo could sing without worrying whether they got the notes and pronunciation perfectly right, and yet get exactly the same result of receiving the benediction of the Hindoos' beloved Navagrahas. Like Arunagirinathar's Tiruppugazh etc, Dikshitar's krithis are all considered mantras in their own right, as they are direct transfers made by the will of the Gods.

These are not "normal" people. They are Expert Hindoos. What they are teaching - what you should be *hearing* - is their imparting their Expertise via their songs: they teach heathenism, the Hindoo kind. TyAgarAja is to have obtained the vision of rAmachandra before dying; I think dikShitar passed away hearing his songs on devI (meenAkShI?) and is also to have seen his Gods during his life. ShyAmA shAstrI can hardly have avoided seeing his Divine Mother the devI after what he had been composing, etc.

When you pick Karnatic singers to listen to, you must hear *THIS*. What must be evoked in the listener is the same as what the composers felt and hence aimed to capture in their songs. I think the word Hindus use is "bhakti", was it. Whatever the word, what I allude to is what Julian felt for his Gods, which was described by Gibbon as being a "sincere and devout attachment" etc, and which Julian explicated rather candidly in his Hymn to Helios: where, even in translation, IIRC it uses the word "affection". But one can call it 'attachment' even: It's a tie that binds very surely, it binds the Gods to the Hindoos. To know them is to be fastened securely to them - they're stuck to their Hindoos as much as the Hindoos are to them - and that's what these songs will do. Which is why you must pick *Hindoo* singers (i.e. those attached to their Gods) - like the famous MSS from TN, or the famous MSS from KN or the famous Tamizh sisters residing in Mumbai, or MRS with his regal voice, etc. Not christian teachers teaching philosophy at Hellenistic schools. I mean, not progressive people who care only about the "art" or "pure culture" of Karnatic music or the "expertise/skill/accomplishment/performance" of it (the south is full of experts in Karnatic music rendering), let alone cryptochristians.

I don't mean to pick apart what Rajeev Srinivasan said, but one can feel 'emotions' about all kinds of music, from all parts of the world. However, that description universalises Hindu classical music. I am probably not allowed to comment on all kinds of Hindu music, but on Karnatik music at least: there is nothing "universal" about it. Its aim is not to evoke mere emotion, its aim - as its effect - is exclusively Hindoo. And so too its origins.

Unless Hindus make this absolutely clear, then tomorrow - and Elst has made a start in turning Hindu classical music into "(mere) art" and "Indian classical" - it will lead to christos declaring that they have as much right to use Hindu ragas including Karnatik music to evoke "(mere) emotional" sentiment in the sheep.

There is nothing "universal" nor anything merely "vanilla Indian" in Karnatik music, it is *exclusively* native Hindoo.

(Note I'm not denying Rajiv Srinivasan felt something. I'm sure he did. I just wish he hadn't left it quite so late as to get to appreciate it now: else what did his kids get to learn all this time?)

Oh, and my favourite versions of Krishna Nee Begane Baaro are the ones sung by my aunt and mother. Sadly, not available on CD. Maybe I'll record it someday...


On this -

Quote:These are not "normal" people. They are Expert Hindoos. What they are teaching - what you should be *hearing* - is their imparting their Expertise via their songs: they teach heathenism, the Hindoo kind. TyAgarAja is to have obtained the vision of rAmachandra before dying; I think dikShitar passed away hearing his songs on devI (meenAkShI?) and is also to have seen his Gods during his life. ShyAma shAstri can hardly have avoided seeing his Divine Mother the devI after what he had been composing, etc.

1. Muthuswami Dikshitar did indeed pass away at the end of his life while listening to a song on Meenakshi, and a very appropriate line from there.

2. Of shyAma shAstri it is also confirmed that he saw the Gods: he is famous for having regularly seen Devi throughout his life. Predictably she chose to appear to him as Balakumari, wearing ringing golusu and being generally playful (as she is well-known to do), whenever he withdrew to do his puja and compose.

Quote:Another milestone in Hinduisation of the Church

14/07/2012 01:46:22 GSK Menon

Newspaper, Malayala Manorama, dated July 6th 2012 has reported on page 2 that Vallom Forona Church, hosted the Arengtram of 16 Christians, who learnt Shinkari Melam.

These are traditional Hindu temple music played exclusively on ceremonial occasions. The Church which is on a Hinduisation spree has now adopted this practice also. Already Hindu Nilavilakku and temple Dhwajastambham have become an integral part of Church worship. The prayer pattern of a community is itself undergoing a mass transformation. Christian converts, who renounced their Hindu religion, traditions and culture are realising their stupidity in accepting a foreign religion. The Bible expressly prohibits the use of musical instruments in worship that is why orthodox Christian groups do not play music. Christians need to rethink about their continuation in this religion itself? Why borrow from other religious systems and pray to a foreign god ?

I happenned to see an evangelical program on TV. The stage carried a big banner proclaiming "Jesus the name above all names". Ironically, the pastor hosting the show was retaining his Hindu name Manoj. In yet another evangelical program I heard the speaker exhorting the new group of converts to retain their Hindu names. What is this religion which does not want to use its own names but prefers the names of Gods of other religions? Does it make any sense? On the one hand the Pope is ordering to use only Christian names, but evangelical missionary gangs are seen exhorting not to change their Hindu names! Ultimately, these converts become CCC - Confused Christian Convert.

[color="#800080"](The church insists that christos keep Hindu names in public for cryptochristianism purposes (a temporary measure).

Like the church equally insists that (especially) christowomen marry Hindu men and baptise all children, regardless of whether they manage to convert the "Hindu" spouse and his family or not, though the christowomen are encouraged to do this also.

But I forgot. Sensitivities are such that many batting for the home-team specifically don't want cryptochristianism exposed. <- As long as they don't suddenly decide "realise" later on that it needs to be exposed... Because that would be beyond Hypocrisy and deep into the realms of Utter Idiocy, after all. As are most things that people work out too late. There's no points for coming to the right conclusions at the wrong time, ya know. Still adds up to the wrong answer. Sadly it doesn't result in individual fail marks, but a collective one - aka extinction - at the end of this rainbow.

Well, it's not all bad news/not all ignominy: at least there are Hindoos like GSK Menon who aren't blinkered and keep drawing attention to cases of inculturation that many of us - me especially - would never have noticed, were it not for their constant watchfulness.)[/color]

Let us pray that the misguided converts return to Hinduism, Hindu culture and traditions. It is time to bid goodbye to the desert god.
(As usual only the linked articles and stuff in blockquotes are important.)

Apparently Stanford is busy laying the groundwork for claiming Keertanas belong just as much to "Indian" christianism as it does to Hindu religion, even though it is exclusively Hindu being an expression of the Hindus and a worship of exclusively the *Hindu* divine.

Particularly look at the section they have carefully advertised for speaking of "Tamil christian keertanai". (Not that keertanas are Jewish either, but they are - or at least were - far less prone to inculturate than christianism.)


Quote:Thursday, April 18, 2013

May 5- Translated Tunes: Negotiations of Space, Genre, and Identity in Kirtan Conference

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Bernadette Marie White <bmwhite@stanford.edu>

Date: Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 2:56 AM

Subject: May 5- Translated Tunes: Negotiations of Space, Genre, and Identity in Kirtan Conference

To: southasia@lists.stanford.edu, southasiastudents@lists.stanford.edu, southasiafaculty@lists.stanford.edu, hs-events-announcements@lists.stanford.edu

Please distribute widely.

see image of flyer at the linked rajeev2004 blog entry

it states, with a carefully-structured context/lead up and trail off:


Across Religious Communities in Maharashtra and Tamil Nadu

<Jewish example in Maharashtra, studied by Hebrew University and presented at Stanford>

2:50-3:30: Zoe Sherininan (University of Oklahoma), "Tamil Christian kirttanai: Musical Style, Theology, and Social Identity

The rest of the flyer has to be read to see the full effect of the context and to be able to properly observe the process which Stanford employs in claiming Keertanas as "equally christian" (and note that it is christianism doing this: it always does this. Claiming Keertanas for christianism under the culture etc garb is a christian project, even though Stanford sounds like a "secular" university):

1. It talks about the "transformations" of Keertanai in India in terms of geography/space and "genre" (they mean language). The first transformation they show as happening in India in the west and south. The example for the second transformation is given in how keertanas have moved from Hindus father tongue Samskritam to their mother tongues like Marati.

2. Then the christo project at Stanford carefully embeds "christianism" as a "mere" third example "in this sequence" of transformation of keertanais under a heading on "transformation/transferral of identity", between the above two legitimate examples of transformation.

But note how the other two examples - that of space and language - are legitimate because they are internal and *natural* to Hinduism, and a continuation of the natural expression of Hindus in *their* space and *their* languages.

The christian so-called "example" - as merely another case and one of identity transfer of keertanai to christianism - is false. Not only is it utterly illegitimate (there is no keertanai in christianism, and it comes only from deliberate stealing by christians) but is not even a natural transformation that they pretend it is: it is deliberate and very conscious inculturation on Hindu religion. It is the theft of Hindu religion after these very things were attacked by christians for being "expressions of Hindus' paganism" not so very long ago. It is not transformation but it is indeed transference. Or to put it in the more appropriate terminology: it is Replacement Theology. They blast Hindus for this, then the sheep want these things for themselves because their alien christian masters realised that their native sheep don't have *any* culture (something the native sheep also realised and which made them have a very understandable and justifiable inferiority complex, hence their plagiarism). The aliens are jealous that their little sheep can't *do* anything and can't *create* anything, whereas the Hindus have created pristine divine music - inspired directly by/derived directly from the Hindu Gods - whereas the non-existent bozo jeebusjehovallah is unable to inspire anything creative in the sheepified. So the alien christos have to help their native cannibal sheep in stealing the much-coveted Hindu achievements (actually Hindu religion) from the Hindus and donate them to christianism.

With this conference/presentation, Stanford is laying the foundations for "establishing" keertanais as equally "christian": as but part of some "natural process of transformation", rather than allowing it to be exposed as inculturation, as blatant plagiarism born of a rabid envy innate to missionary religion.

Laying this groundwork now is necessary so that next time Stanford/christian institutions throughout the world - AND especially also their Indian christian sheep referring to their masters' "journal articles" on the subject for "authority" - can start speaking of "christian keertanai" as if it is a natural phenomenon and not the deliberated rip-off from Hindu religion that it is. [And as a consequence, Hindus - particularly in TN, which is targeted with the very example cited - will have to qualify all their keertanas with "Hindu keertanai". But that is only the tip of the iceberg they will face.]

Now did Stanford invite Hindus to give recitals at this presentation too (so they can introduce christian keertanai alongside as "equally valid", and use any unwitting Hindu participation/presence as "validating" the invention of keertanai as "also christian? Or is it just the usual traitors - of Hindu antecedents - that were invited over to join in the good ole christian fun? You know, the kind that treat keertanas and carnatic music as "mere art" etc and seek only to be recognised as artists or at least as connaisseurs, and therefore are desperate to be seen at exactly such events?

And here's what Hindus did to invite this problem: NRI Hindus helped promote aliens' new agey howling in (allegedly) Indian languages as "keertanais" even after said alien "converts" repeatedly intimated in print (as was posted earlier in IF **) that the "kirtans" they were howling weren't about the Hindu Gods/Hinduism really (and could be about anything actually - hence also implicitly christianism) and were rather about some "universal feeling" that these things invoked in the listener. In other words, Stanford's advertising of Keertanas as music associated with the [carefully unnamed] "Divine" is only to transfer (or "transform" to use their euphemism) Hindu expressions concerning Hindu divinity into expressions about the non-existent nightmare known as jeebusjehovallah.

NRI Hindus should never have promoted alien howlings of keertanas. New ageism=alienation from heathenism and a step towards universalising the heathenism before it can be claimed/ingested by christianism. "Hindus" c/should have known that. More fool them. But then, NRIs' definition of fitting in into *western* surroundings quite often tends to be in trying to peddle their religion to everyone and as "universal", rather than them practising their own religion in private (a la Daoists do) and thus retaining their own heathenism instead of subverting themselves into new-ageists desperate to acquire foreign attendance.

** Some relevant quotes from that article from back in 2009, which had already foreshadowed the developments:

Quote:(alien new-ageist encroaching) Kirtan singer Krishna Das, among the most popular artists, says kirtan is not about religion, even though the chants come from Hindu tradition. "It's just about doing it, and experiencing," his web site says. "Nothing to join, you just sit down and sing."


I (Anjali/Angela, a cryptochristian inculturating NRI female of Hindu ancestry) was repeating the names of the same Hindu deities I learned about as a kid during religious instruction. Indeed, the words weren't entirely free of connotations even for my co-worker and roommate, who came with me to the kirtan and are not Hindu or Indian. They told me later that while most of the chants didn't mean anything to them, they both instinctively refrained from singing "Hare Krishna," which they thought was affiliated with the movement in India. ... My roommate is already planning on going back because she says kirtan cleared her head.

But because these new-ageists - alien dabblers and Indian subversionists like Anjali - have been peddling Keertanas among abroad and apparently it's catching on among however small a number of aliens, clearly the christowest is growing alarmed at any such trend and hence wants to help repackage keertanas as "equally christian" too, the way they did with yoga etc.

There's a couple more things to note about the Stanford flyer. In their sudden interest in and desperate promotion of keertanas (and their self-declared expertise in the matter, as always happens), there is tacit acknowledgement by the aliens at Stanford that *Hindu* (i.e. Hindu religious) music and musical expression - and Keertanais are exclusively Hindoo onlee, not "all-Indian" or "culture" something - is masterful. That's why they want to claim it for christianism now; they want it to persist [but in the mangled, perverted, i.e. christianised form] even as they aim to kill Hindu religion. That's why they want their sheep trained up to claim it.

Also, as the christian agenda speeds up and more things are ticked off their to-do list (i.e. as Replacement Theology becomes more blatant), it means the christians already envision an end that is in sight for Hindus. Maybe not this decade, but definitely "in time" - as they have already designed/made plans for the "Indian" christian culture" that they feel ought to exist in christian, post-Hindu India. The irony is that many self-declared Hindus actively and even eagerly cooperate in siphoning off (knowledge of) Hindu religion to alien climes. Astounding is also their blindness to inculturation as an (actually violent) means of conversion rather than the innocuous-sounding "indigenisation" that some Hindus still *choose* to perceive this process as or as the "universalisation of Hinduism" (or the equally terrifying and abominable "conversion of the world to Hinduism") that many new-agey Hindus want to promote. Meanwhile, others are downright traitors and admit they just want to see Carnatic music adopted by "everyone" in the world including local christians and muslims, and thus "appreciated in it's own right, separate from Hinduism": they want it separated from Hindu religion, to use it to promote their Indian culture as "superior". (It's a pity one can't sell them.)

Note these are almost if not completely exclusively angelsk-speaking Hindus and all-too-frequently NRI Hindus. Though all the examples of traitors just alluded to that I can recall at the moment (the ones that wanted to sell Carnatic music as universal and want to consciously deHinduise it) tend to specifcially be from my own backyard: TN.

In another entry at the rajeev2004 blog, it appears Rajeev Malhotra has declared that the west is 'reexporting our ideas to us' (paraphrased from short-term memory). That's what a lot of Hindus have been saying for the last few decades (or perhaps longer, but I wasn't around then). In fact, I've also heard them argue repeatedly that the west is trying to widely propagate the notion throughout the world that these Hindu ideas are western (and at times christian) in origin, not merely trying to re-export them to "Indians" in particular.

From Surya Namaskar to Yesu Namaskar

27/05/2013 11:12:56

[Image: yesunamaskaram2752013111256320.jpg]

Part of the Replacement Theology programme.

Ooh more:


Al Taqiya (Law of deception) by Evangelists

01/06/2013 01:17:59

[Image: Xtian16201311759590.jpg]
Post 1/3

Related to posts 5 and 7, and posts 22 and 26 above, which are about inculturation on carnatic music.


Quote:Sunday, February 02, 2014

Carnatic music: the latest target for inculturation

Got to acknowledge the Christists for their systematic, determined and relentless assault on Sanatana Dharma.

After Christo-Yoga, Christo-Natyam and

Christo-AyurVeda, it is now Christo-Carnatic music in Church choirs!

[color="#0000FF"]Some (many) stupid people with Hindu names will, no doubt see a fine example of "secularism" and "composite culture" in this plagiarism too and fail to see the inculturation technique of the Christists, their ideology and their motivations.[/color]

[color="#800080"](The irony is Buddhism etc plagiarised features from Hindu and Asian religions in this way.)[/color]

Like this eminent person


Quote:"..Purists too are not averse to the idea. Carnatic vocalist Bombay Jayashri says, "Music is a religion and singing Christian songs in Carnatic style is an interesting way to combine two religions. Christians all over the world adapt local customs and sing prayer songs in local languages."

Exactly, why would they want to do that, i.e. "adapt local customs, languages etc."? Out of a sense of the famous "Christian charity"? Gasp, do I hear the word "conversions" or "soul harvesting"?

Of course, heathens like us are supposed to know that "All religions are EQUAL. All religions teach the SAME THING". This was drilled into us by the Nehruvian "secular" state. Unfortunately, some of us with a "communal" bent of mind were poor students or weren't paying attention!

Posted by karyakarta92 at 2/02/2014 04:37:00 PM 0 comments Links to this post

And the news article itself:


Quote:Carnatic music gets a Christian touch

Dec 1, 2009, 01.55AM IST TNN[ B Sivakumar ]

CHENNAI: It's a music tradition that's believed to have divine origins. The lyrics of traditional Carnatic music compositions are usually devotional or philosophical in nature, drawing on Hindu religious tenets and now Christian choir groups too are setting their hymns to classical ragas and talas.

The words may not be so different from the hymns sung at prayer services, but rather than standing behind the priest and singing to the organ, these choir singers sit cross-legged on the floor as a traditional Carnatic ensemble, complete with violin, harmonium and mridangam. They even wear pattu pavadais, silk saris and jasmine flowers. And the trinity they sing praise to are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Limsas, a choir based in Purasawalkam that sings at religious congregations across the city, starts its kutcheri' with a small prayer and the traditional sa pa sa'. Beulah Santhi, the choir teacher, teaches people aged between four and 40 Tamil kritis, all in the name of Jesus, written by various composers. They have a book of 400 Christian kritis in Tamil set to different ragas, which clearly mentions the raga and tala in which the songs should be sung.

Santhi, a music teacher in a private school in Vepery, came to Chennai from Nagercoil in 1990 and started the Limsas choir in 2000, after parents and students requested her to teach them Christian songs set to Carnatic music. "Many of these songs were written 50 or 60 years ago, but no one has been singing them," says Santhi, who is a graduate in Carnatic music from Sathguru Sangeetha Vidyalaya, Madurai. "Most choirs tend to follow the western style of singing."

Santhi teaches her students the basics of Carnatic music from Janta Varisai' to gitam, just like any other teacher. But instead of Sri Gananatha', the first gitam for a Carnatic music student, the children are taught a song praising Jesus in the same raga and tala.

Class begins with Santhi tuning the harmonium to set the scale and asking the children to identify the raga. The 30 students begin the song with tala and swaras, as in any other Carnatic kirtana. The choir has a tight schedule in November and December during Christmas and New Year.

[color="#800080"](To takeover the Hindus' December Carnatic season, note.)[/color]

Community leaders and members have responded positively to the music, says Santhi, and enjoy it though not all of them understand it.

There is surprise in some circles too. Musician and composer Paul Augustine says, "Singing choir songs in different ragas is rather new. Though the audience doesn't dislike the concept, they find it hard to sing along as they do with a regular choir." He says his music group has at least two songs in an album of eight set in the Carnatic style.

Fr Jegath Gaspar Raj of Tamil Maiyam, says, "[color="#0000FF"]The community needs Carnatic music teachers in every church[/color] so that the members can learn and popularise the songs of composers like Vedanayagam Sasthriyar in Thanjavur."

[color="#800080"](Christist Jegath Raj is a famous fundraiser for the christo LTTE, now predictably fundraising for converting TN. He also released some western classical symphony version of Mannikavaachagar's Tiruvaachakam=sacred tamizh text on Shiva, as the first part of their inculturation attempt on Tiruvaachakam as being equally about jeebus and therefore about jeebus all along. With this album and his Tamil Maiyam he hoped to raise money for christo LTTE/christianisation of SL's Tamizh Hindus. Now Tamil Maiyam's money is going towards christianising India's Hindus of TN.

I think the same Tamil Maiyam released a "Thirukural" album, published by "universalising" label Kalakendra/Swathi Series/Swathisoft. A la how label Amutham of which Sudha Ragunathan is the director plugs for LTTE-supporter Winston Panchacharam and has a "christian devotional" section next to "carnatic" and "sanskrit" devotional sections. No mention of "Hindu" I note.)[/color]

Purists too are not averse to the idea. Carnatic vocalist Bombay Jayashri says, "Music is a religion and singing Christian songs in Carnatic style is an interesting way to combine two religions. Christians all over the world adapt local customs and sing prayer songs in local languages."


(Writer's likely cryptochristian. Probably one of those Opus Dei types that were said to work in christomedia specifically for such purposes as inculturation, christian PR and Hindu defamation. In this case it's inculturation: to introduce the notion of christian carnatic and then gradually get audiences used to it and create legitimacy for it)

1. I don't know when Bombay Jayashri became a purist. She is just one of many vocalists. And she sings on islamic "devotional" albums too, and does bollypoo cine-music too. (And she was last caught plagiarising Hindu composers for her "own" composition for the movie Life of Pi.)

2. She's long regarded Carnatic music as no more than "art" (I know this from people who know Sudha Raghunathan* and Bombay Jayashri and probably every living major carnatic singer and some musicians). [As an aside: Sudha Raghunathan revealed that she didn't sing Hindu carnatic songs to her kids but sang English lullabies to them instead. Then again, she's the kind that's a "devotee" of that anti-Hindu fraud Jaggi Vasudev who IIRC - as per his own father-in-law - murdered his wife. Jaggi is also promoted by DMK supremo Karunanidhi.]

But look at Jayashree's typically christoconditioned statement here:

Quote:Music is a religion and singing Christian songs in Carnatic style is an interesting way to combine two religions.

Note how she does not acknowledge that Carnatic music is Hindu religion at all. She only says that "music is a religion". And she clearly recognises that christianism is a religion when she speaks of it as the 2nd religion. But she makes no mention of Hindu religion. Traitor.

This is what both new age/christo-conditioned Hindu-types who "universalise" Hindu religion do, as well as what cryptochristians do. I wonder which side she falls on now. After all, her dear friends include that anti-Hindu AR Rehman. He's not the only anti-Hindu who leaped to congratulate her for her oscar nomination for her plagiarised composition: IIRC virulent anti-Hindu Shabana Azmi also congratulated her, who would never congratulate Hindus. (Correct: firstpost.com/bollywood/indian-film-fraternity-celebrates-bombay-jayashrees-oscar-nomination-584880.html)
Post 2/3

The recent generation has been turning Hindu carnatic music into "art" - divorcing carnatic music from Hindu religion. That is why this happens. One can hardly see even Mridangam players wear their sacred facial marks (veeboothi/kungumam or chandanam-naamam) anymore. They come without marks, looking like christians. How can you even play the mRidangam like that? You can always tell it's an actual Hindoo from his wearing his marks when playing the mRidangam or other instrument, or when singing.

The female Indian vocalists - as also instrumentalists - still dress Hindu, but the de-heathenising among them see this as part of "dressing up" for it.

And then 20 something female singers sing in new age bands with christo band members - e.g. the horrid-sounding "yoddha" is one such band - in (lame) western gear and then dress up to sing carnatic music (badly) for katcheris. People have turned it into a mere art.

Time was when you could hear the Sisters from Mumbai singing krithis and stotras and you knew they meant every word they sang about their beloved Gods.

(IIRC DK Pattamal's niece is still a devout Hindu, I forgot her name. Nityashree.)

Another annoying feature is that a lot of these modern carnatic types - men and women - like to speak in English in interviews. It's another status symbol to them - like dressing up and singing as an art. But not everyone in their audience understands English - I have relatives who don't. And frankly, I often don't understand their "English". Why can't these people speak Tamizh (especially on a Tamizh-language program)? Who do they imagine is their audience anyway? They're like the Indian elite - who also regularly snub the native language speakers.

Indians are such lame wannabes. It's like their whole goal in life is to become something they're not (and then they typically whine when they realise they've permanently lost something important. And then this cycle starts again.)

[color=b;ue]In future, I predict christians will try to insinuate themselves into Hindu carnatic concerts, and Hindu carnatic concert venues - facilitated as always by the new age traitors on the Indian side (like Jayashree above).

Christians will first start by entering shows like Carnatic Idol.[/color] At present this is still exclusively Hindu. And the audience is exclusively Hindu too, which is *exactly* why christians will be going to pollute this: to secularise it into "all-Indian carnatic" and to force their christian songs on the increasingly stupid listeners. Then that will be one less program that Hindus can watch. But some families looking for prestige for their kids will still send their kids to sing on such by-then christian-infiltrated shows.

Next, christians will start trying to organise katcheris in common with Hindus: crashing not just venues, but also wanting to take part in local Hindu carnatic competitions and concert seasons. And then the traditional Hindu audiences - who are the only ones who ever go to kutcheris - will be forced (by Jayashree types acting as facilitators for christianism to get a foot in the door) to have to listen through songs by christos on jeebus interspersed in the programme. Either that (and which will de-heathenise the Hindu audience to be more "accepting" of christianism and accomodate it more and more in all Hindu spheres of activity), or the insubvertible Hindoos will be forced to stop going to the christianism-infested katcheris, which will kill katcheris and gradually carnatic music among Hindus, and christianism will start pretending that "therefore" carnatic is theirs.

It's what christianism (and other missionary religions) always does: seek to insinuate itself into the private sphere and space and activities of heathens - and the Karnatic crowd was so far the most unreachable - in order to be able to evangelise them: forcibly exposing Hindus to christianism.

I am sure December season will start including christian carnatic over time, and then albums released of December season will start containing these christian terrorisms on them, and then general studio-recorded carnatic album compilations will start including them too. (I mean, doesn't Sudha Raghunathan's amutham label already have a christian "devotional" section? What's stopping companies like hers from mixing christianism in a bit more by putting christian songs on otherwise Hindu albums?)

This is going to be a nightmare for devout Hindus. All thanks to the few new-age christoconditioned traitors inviting christianism and facilitating its inculturation program. Karnatic audiences were almost the last place (other than temples and veda paathashaalas) that Hindus were free from christian infiltration, and guaranteed of Hindoo religion. Contrast with how a few new-age cult-peddlers invited aliens over to dabble in Hinduism, and now these alien 'converts' feel they have a right to terrorise Hindoo temples in India despite these ancient temples not remotely belonging to the modern cults that inducted the aliens.

Stupid new-age Indians such as at the tamilbrahmins site/forum are to blame. These last specifically discussed a year ago how they wanted to secularise Karnatic music and change its subject matter to the secular topic of love songs so it could finally have appeal to westerners (Indians always need western approval and seek western appeal) and so as to let Indian christians and islamics have a share in Karnatic music by making it "universal". I don't ever see non-brahmin Hindoos sell carnatic music. Only the angelsk-speaking - often NRI - tamil brahmins do so. Traitors.

And as I recall it's usually tamil brahmins - mostly NRI - who sell Vedas to aliens too. (However Indians from all over India sold Yoga and local Tantra practices though.) It's always the same with modern tamil brahmins. Anyway, they'll get what they worked for, though they may in time not like it and start whining - the way NRIs started whining about how yoga has been appropriated by aliens and christos.

Modern "Hindus" are *always* doing this. They create problems that can never be fixed - usually consciously (but with no thought to the actual repercussions) - and when it turns out ugly, as it *always* does, they start whining about it. Well, they may not have asked for extinction, but they worked for it and the traitors at least most certainly deserve it for their treachery.
Post 3/3

Several online Carnatic sources are already infiltrated if not set up by christians: they slip in articles about "christian carnatic", or the need to universalise carnatic music so that christians can share in it too, etc. Karnatik-dot-com contained a short story with a mention about carnatic music being "equallly christian and islamic" just because christians and islamics have dabbled in it. And it also hosts the following article:


(Note: visiting any pages on the original site raises money towards some charity - which may not be Hindu, for all I know - which is why I link to the archive.org page)

Quote:Articles on Carnatic Music

Popularity of Carnatic Music, Part II

by Raghavan Jayakumar, PhD


Recently, the seamless blending of Carnatic music with other forms of music by A.R. Rahman has brought a new level of acceptance of Carnatic musical phrasing. While some may be upset with the loss of rigor and purity of Carnatic music in film music, I believe that this is a powerful medium for the listener to get comfortable with Carnatic music. A great merit (which perhaps offends a section of Carnatic music lovers) is that film music is not restricted to devotional songs and therefore has broad appeal.


Devotional Music- In South Indian culture, the use of music in worship and on festive occasions has been the cornerstone of musical learning and practice. It is considered auspicious and joyful to sing and listen to Carnatic music and is perhaps a major source of musical satisfaction. This form of practice does not necessarily demand a high level of musical accomplishment and therefore the informal rendering increases participation immensely. While the method stabilizes the popularity of Carnatic music among south Indians, it is also restricted mainly to practicing Hindus and remains a limited context.

[color="#800080"](Villain thinks that Carnatic Music has no deeper purpose to Hindus than being "perhaps a major source of musical satisfaction" etc. He finds Hindus are hogging it, and limiting its spread, so here comes the kreatur's "brilliant" suggestion - can tell he is de-heathenised and doing exactly what christianism wantsSmile[/color]


One of the things that is [color="#0000FF"]owed[/color] to people of the world, is the availability of Carnatic compositions for people of all walks of life. Already Carnatic music is ahead by having compositions in many Indian languages. Why not have compositions in English, French, German, Arabic etc. And over and above that [color="#FF0000"]why not have Christian, Muslim and Jewish prayers composed in Carnatic music.[/color] Here is a veritable treasure trove for creative aspirants. The marketing of these NEW compositions will have to be undertaken with the help of both the parochial interest groups and groups that work to promote integration. If Carnatic music is to attain its deserved place in the world, it has to acquire a universal character. I believe that this expansion is its destiny and will capture the imagination of all peoples much as Hinduism has.

(O hou toch je smoel.

Typical of universalists. They always want to peddle a part or else all of Hinduism as "universal". And it's always the traditional Hindoos who end up getting tormented by the fallout.)


In closing, I reiterate that Carnatic music is the music of the Universe. It belongs to all the people of the world. Practitioners and rasikas have a duty to help Carnatic music break its shackles and barriers to fulfill its role in world culture. Ultimately, Carnatic music will be a vehicle for the promise: "Engum Shaanthi Nilava Vendum, Aathma Shakthi Oonga Vendum- Ulagile"-(Peace shall reign everywhere, Spiritual strength shall rise all over the world).

(Look how he typically universalised the Hindoo notion Aatma Shakti by translating it into English.)

back to Popularity of Carnatic Music, Part I
And further idiotic suggestions at the link.

The whole goal of this SuperMoron and his Unmitigated Moronism is that *carnatic* music must be peddled and universally adopted. He clearly does not care for Hindu religion but loves carnatic music as a dead thing of itself - by forcibly divorcing its intrinsically Hindu religious nature - and wants desperately that it should be universally adopted (because he likes it*, but not deeply: since only Hindoos can appreciate carnatic music properly and to its full extent). In order to ensure universal adoption, he wants to peddle it in trashy movies, as carnatic-light, in alien tongues ("globalisation"/internationalisation), and of course as a universal means of some universal spirituality so that christoislamania or Judaism can have an equal claim. (Note how the only religions that christoconditioned know or care about is always the monotheisms, because that's what their mind is attuned to.)

* Can compare with the tamilbrahmins forum which wanted "westerners" to start liking Carnatic, in order for these Indians to feel superior about themselves (since western opinion is important to such Indians: they seem to wilt and die without it).

I'm starting to see extinction as a good thing. Considering the rate at which modern "Hindus" are selling and destroying/mauling Hindu religion by handing Hindu religion piecemeal over to christianism for pillaging/raping, it would be far better for all of Hindudom to extinct and quickly: before every last thing is sold off and christianised=butchered.

These are not modern Hindus' things to sell. Not their "heritage". These sacred things are Hindu religion. It belongs to Hindoos alone. Our Hindoo ancestors put together and safeguarded these sacred things for us, so we may still practice them and follow in their footsteps. But now, having ceased to be deserving of these Hindoo things, these things should be removed from the world. And since modern Hindus insist on holding on to the shell but not the Hinduness in these things - and will not let go - then both must be extincted together: both the increasingly-mauled Hindudom and the Hindus stuck with the treacherous gangrene which they won't amputate. Fortunately, time will ensure extinction. Let's see modern Hindus escape that: this fate is becoming more inevitable by the day. "Come Death and welcome."

And the news was:


Quote:Carnatic music gets a Christian touch
Post 4

More proof of stupidity. This time for the afore-mentioned "tamilbrahmins" site:

[quote name='Husky' date='03 February 2014 - 09:41 PM' timestamp='1391443382' post='117039']Stupid new-age Indians such as at the tamilbrahmins site/forum are to blame. These last specifically discussed a year ago how they wanted to secularise Karnatic music and change its subject matter to the secular topic of love songs so it could finally have appeal to westerners (Indians always need western approval and seek western appeal) and so as to let Indian christians and islamics have a share in Karnatic music by making it "universal".[/quote]


Thread topic: [color="#0000FF"]How much interest westerners have in Carnatic music?[/color]

(Note the title. And I don't mean the typical Tamizh-Indian grammatical blunder but the typical Indian pre-occupation: chasing after western approval. After all, unless western people come to adulate carnatic music, it can't be worthwhile? Nietwaar?)




Join Date:Sep 2007







To answer the title of this thread, the answer is ‘very few’. A miniscule number (to be very generous 10,000) of westerners may be interested, to various levels – from benign toleration to intense interest.

But then, even within tambram society, it is, I think, only a section of us, who like Carnatic music with the intensity propounded by some rasikas. It is the same with western classical music – only a minority, and none of them make even a fraction of the moneys made by the pop stars, let alone the popularity and name recognition.

I think the situation is the same with Hindustani music.

Ofcourse, we appreciate, anyone liking our culture. It is the normal and right thing to do. But just because a few westerners like it, we cannot assume there is intense interest in the west. Even in Toronto, with a large tambram and tamil population, it is a rare Carnatic kutcheri that garners more than 100 in the audience. That is a fact.

[color="#0000FF"]Ofcourse, modern Carnatic is synonymous with hindu religiosity. This due to I think, the trimurthis, and those who followed them, took on the same theme.[/color] Bharathiar has some exceptions, but even his songs sung to Carnatic tunes are religious in nature, like nenjukku needhi et al.

[color="#800080"](Nonsense. All Carnatic music is Hindu and this was not some innovation of the Carnatic trimurthi, because the *origins* of carnatic music is Hindoo onlee: Pan and Saamavedam are Hindoo music.

Tomorrow these nutcases will do what's been done with Yoga: they'll pretend that there was a "coup-d'etat" by Hindus at some point in time - as Elst put it for Yoga - on "secular" Carnatic music to "turn" it Hindu. And the way Rani David taught her brainwashee tambram student - dancer Anita Ratnam - that "christianity, Sangham literature and Bharatanatyam originally co-existed together" [paraphrasing from memory].

Bharatanatyam and Carnatic music are exclusively Hindoo.

But sigh. What can ya do with modern 'Tambrams'. Clearly the Gods have forsaken them.)[/color]

I read somewhere, that Hindustani music was originally religious hindu type. But with the Mughal and muslim conquest, the ragas and songs were re written to secular themes, and ragas renamed like morning, evening ragas and such. I don’t have any verification for this, but is believable. As this would have provided a career to the new muslim kings, keen on adopting indian culture, without the added baggage of religion, of which they believed they had the right path.

[color="#800080"](Uh, since when were islamic tyrants - "kings" - keen on adopting Indian culture? It's only the secular ones that did so, or a few while they were trying to woo Hindoo women into their harem.

And of course Hindustani music is originally Hindoo onlee. Everything that's not is simply owing to inculturation.)[/color]

If this indeed was done, I can envisage, the same being done to Carnatic music. All [color="#FF0000"]we need[/color] is some classy music composers and poets, in tandem, to produce [color="#FF0000"]love ragas[/color] to adi talam and anu pallavi


These guys' kids will probably run off with islamania and they'll be left scratching their heads on where they went wrong. (Must be the "love ragas" IMO.)

To imitate the 'tambrams' at the link (and elsewhere): "Oh my gawd, *western* people! :Gasp: :luv: :desperation: :wannabe: :giggle: :flirt:"

Unrequited love - so sweet: "Why don't you like our music? Don't worry, we can change our selves. We can make you like us: Look, we're totally ready to spit on our Hindoo ancestors and our Gods and de-Hinduise our sacred carnatic music into secular 'love ragas', all just to please you. Won't you say you love us? Don't go! Why are you running away? Where are you going? Come back!!!!!!!"

Poor western people. I mean, to be stalked by wannabe losers. Eewwww.

Indians are free to de-heathenise themselves, but they are *not* allowed to take Hindus' religio-culture away with them - out of Hindu religion. Once a person has de-Hinduised, Hindoo religio-culture is out of bounds for them. In the case of the current example: carnatic music.

Indians as they have regressed to become today *deserve* to Go The Way Of The Dodo. Should stop feeling sorry for Modern Indian "Hindus" every time something like the California Textbooks Drama comes up and they feel slighted by the west. I mean, wasn't it the same types that screeched at Rameshwaram and Ramarsethu that were going about collecting money for CAPEEM on IF? What was he called, "N3"? <- Yeah, that type.

Next time such anti-Hindu 'Hindus' whine about western persecution, Hindoos should just retort with "Awww, western people don't like you? Oh poor you."

[Note: I have the Right To Lampoon the above entities because I am

1. Ethnically Indian;

2. Tamizh

3. My ancestors are Tamizh Brahmanas

4. Am pro-heathen and pro-Hindoo (i.e. pro traditional Hindus, and anti modernist/de-heathenised losers)

And so it is that I do lampoon. Because I don't like anything anti-heathen or de-heathenising.]
And there's now a comment to:


Quote:Sunday, February 02, 2014

Carnatic music: the latest target for inculturation

Quote:Mahesh said...

Bombay Jayshri's utterings may have been caused by the fact that her film singing career owes a lot to the music director Harris Jayaraj.
Yeah well, that wouldn't be the only reason.

These people are dangerous to Hindoos and Hindoo-ism because they legitimise christian inculturation, being mentally christianised already.
No surprises.

Goldberg's "American Veda" was not merely an attempt at universalising away Hindoo religion and to stop there - turning it into a pick-and-choose buffet dubbed "universal spirituality": turns out Goldberg is just another christian inculturationist in specific, like Frank Morales. As is usual with modern inculturationists of this particular type, they initially start off trying to get into the good books of Hindus, then from there they lead their readers/fans/beliebers to "jesus was a Hindu guru" and "the vedas are saying the same as the bible/the brahman of the vedas is the biblical gawd" (aka the old attempt to subsume Hindoo religion into christianism).

Haindava Keralam unwittingly published an interview with Goldberg submitted by a person familiar to them, without critically examining the contents.

HK took the interview off the main page, but it is for now still at HK with no *visible* objection:

[INSERT (a couple of days later): HK has removed the contents - sorry, not comments - of the page when I just checked.]


Quote:In 2002, he [Goldberg] became an ordained Interfaith Minister through the Interfaith Seminaries. He began offering spiritual counseling professionally, and occasionally performing weddings. Recently, with his wife, acupuncturist Lori Deutsch, he started Spiritual Wellness and Healing Associates (SWAHA).* He published Making Peace with God and Roadsigns on the Spiritual Path: Living at the Heart of Paradox. His column, “Spiritual Wellness” appears regularly on Healthworld Online and also blogs on www.Intent.com.

* "SWAHA" -> More christian inculturation. Then again, Elst did say that Buddhism etc is "Vedic" for having also encroached on Swaha, therefore, as soon as christianism encroaches on the Vedam and vedamantras, christianism will be Vedic too, nah? By the same logic.

One type of Buddhism in Japan copied homa rites but replaced the Vedic Gods at the centre of the rite with a fictional Buddha instead. So if christianism were to copy homa rites and replace the central entity with jeebus - even if they kept a mandala of a clone of Hindoo deities around it - these would have to be called "Vedic rites" too, nah? Going by the type of arguments that modern Hindus like to make, where they look at exterior similarities (i.e. inculturations) and draw conclusions of relatedness and identity from there.

Anyway, Goldberg's agenda to christianise Hindu religion becomes clearer - in case the tell-tale phrase "interfaith minister" wasn't clear and further clarity was needed - in the link he himself provides to his Huff Post article in his interview:


Quote:Philip Goldberg Become a fan

Interfaith Minister, author of 'American Veda: How Indian Spirituality Changed the West'

Hindu Jesus: A Different Kind of Christianity

Posted: 12/19/2010 8:19 pm EST Updated: 06/19/2013 4:33 pm EDT

Then came the 60s, and I was introduced to a different Jesus, by way of India. Like millions of my contemporaries, my hot pursuit of truth and personal fulfillment led me to the spiritual teachings of the East. I read the sacred texts of Hinduism and Buddhism as well as modern interpreters such as Aldous Huxley, Alan Watts and Huston Smith. It was called mysticism, but I found it, ironically, non-mysterious and eminently rational. I tracked down a yoga class -- not easy to do back then, believe it or not -- and learned to meditate. Throughout my explorations, the name of Jesus cropped up surprisingly often, and always with respect. In Paramahansa Yogananda's seminal memoir, Autobiography of a Yogi, the rabbi of Nazareth is treated with such reverence that I thought I must be missing something.

So I bought a New Testament, and it blew my mind. Because my spiritual reference point was more Hindu than Judeo-Christian, the Gospels seemed more like the Upanishads or the Bhagavad Gita than the churchy dogma I expected to find. The main character was a master teacher, a guru who prodded his disciples not just to better behavior but to union with the divine. (=popular dictionary translation of "yoga", i.e. inculturationist Goldberg is saying that the fictional jeebus was a "yoga guru") His term for the Ground of Being was "Father," but it was easy to evoke the language of the Vedic seers and substitute Brahman or Self.

By new age sleight of hand - like in his phrase 'NT term for the "Ground of Being"' - Goldberg turns the biblical gawd into the Brahman and the "Self" that the Vedic "seers" spoke of.

The kind of morons who like neo-vedanta/pseudo-vedanta and new age yoga* may well fall for the above.

(* Thanks Paramahamsa! <- He - like countless other Indian peddlers of just this kind - was so *totally* asking to be inculturated upon. Just desserts really. But to think people called him an authentic yogi. I remember coming across a book of his/attributed to him on 'how to talk to gawd' or something in the early 2000s. Pass.

And BTW, which real=authentic yogi do people know who would write a book about being a yogi, let alone an "autobiography of a yogi". Geez. That is a hobby of modern subverted, new-agey entities. Usually the kind who seek others' approval/admiration and alien followers. People who want to "convert" the west - into new ageism.)

Below is Thamizhchelvan warning against Frank Morales - who predictably fooled some new agey Indians desperate for alien converts into elevating him to a swami too, so that he got imposed on the rest of Hindus to dupe them. Morales also eventually revealed that his goal was to bring back/re-introduce jeebus and declare that jeebus was a great "Hindu Yogi" (you know, how Buddha is advertised as a "Hindu" Yogi only to Hindus, so that Hindus will keep repeating that "Buddha taught Hinduism onlee", except for the small detail that Buddha subverted Vedic religion as per traditional Hindoos, a.o.t. Elstian type/new-agey Hindus):


Quote:Interfaith dialogues and Inculturation: The Pune Dialogue - by Thamizhchelvan 09 Dec 2011


The “International Sanatana Dharma Society” run by one Frank Morales masquerading as “Sri Dharma Pravartaka Acharya” targets US-born and bred Hindu youths who are distanced from their native culture by two to three generations. His seeks to establish Jesus as “Dharma Master” through the Hindu scriptures, like the local fraudsters like Sadhu Chellappa and Vedanayagam Sastri. (14)
Goldberg sounds exactly like Morales, so can put them both in the same box.

Goldberg roped in that other foreign "convert" - David Frawley, who got Hindus to crown him as "Vamadeva Shastri" - to endorse his book "AmriKKKan Veda":


Quote:About the book [Goldberg's "American Veda"], Pandit Vamadeva Sastri (David Frawley), Vedic scholar says, “Through his stimulating and thoughtful book, Indian readers can share in the great adventure in global consciousness that he documents in detail. They can learn how spiritually aware Americans have long been looking to India for guidance, not just Indians looking to the West.”

Frawley is a "Pandit"? A "Vedic scholar"? Who died?

And Frawley's dabbling can hereby also be dismissed.

The oxymoronic title of "AmriKKKan Veda" is just laughable too. Then again, modern Hindus do keep universalising the Vedas saying it is "universal, universal". And these are the logical fruits of such thoughtless statements.
^ About alien cryptochristians inculturating on Hindus' religion.

This post is on christians in India inculturating on Hindu religion,

and how Hindus have gone through this grief before.

1. haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=18893

Quote:Jesus, the Sole Yogacharya: New Conversion Agendas by Christian Church.

23/07/2014 10:24:33 JanmabhumiDaily

The Christian church's conversion agenda now has a fresh tool: ancient India's Yoga. A centre initiated by a private hospital of Muvattupuzha is now embroiled in a controversy after making specific attempts at conversion. The aim is clear: proselytizing via a fake message that Jesus is the 'one and only Yogi'.

The centre's website has indicated that it has now become common the Yesu Namaskaram, with an affiliation from Physical Education and Sports University of Tamil Nadu. However, nowhere in the University website does it indicate an affiliation to the particular centre.

The class, under the guise of Yoga lessons, with the title 'Yesu Namaskaram' has been initiated by a retired nun of Kottayam Medical College. It is said that the place is witnessing large scale efforts in religious conversion.

The nun is said to have learnt the basics of Yoga from Vivekananda Kendra, Bangalore and then begun her own centre. She teaches all Yogic Asanas, including Suryanamaskara, but with the message super imposed that Jesus Christ propounded of Yoga.

After having gauged from the general trend that Yoga is now attracting major sections of society, it is confirmed that the church has devious schemes of 'Christianizing' Yoga. Sources have indicated that all those sitting in the apex body of the congregation too have put in their consent in promoting the same. Another of their secret agendas is the amassing of wealth using Yoga.

2. timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/thiruvananthapuram/Christhave-Namaha-set-to-go-viral/articleshow/45638524.cms

Quote:RELATED KEYWORDS: Technopark-based-Alokin-software|Christhave-Namaha|Apples-App-store|Android-version

Christhave Namaha set to go viral

B Sreejan, TNN | Dec 25, 2014, 01.41PM IST

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: This Christmas, Android mobile users can freely download Jesus Sahasranama, similar to the thousand names in Vishnu Sahasranamam, from Google play store and listen to 'Amen, Christhave Namaha' with tamburu shruthi in the background.

Jesus Sahasranama and Jesus Namavali the two mobile apps were launched here on Tuesday by Technopark-based Alokin software. Jesus Sahasranama is already available as a paid app in Apple's App store. "Android version will ensure that the app reaches more people in different strata of society", said Rajeev Sebastian, CEO of Alokin software.

The sahasranama and namavali are the works of renowned Sanskrit scholar KU Chacko, who was a professor of Sanskrit at Nirmala College, Muvattupuzha, and first published Jesus Sahasranama in 1987. "The free mobile apps will help popularise our venture," said Chacko. Chacko has also written Yesu Suprabhatham, Kristhubhujanam and Giriprabhashanam modelled on Hindu prayers.

Indigenization of Christianity is the state policy of the church in India. Various denominations in Kerala have incorporated the traditional lamp and temple flag post as part of church architecture and rituals.

"Indigenization" of christianism is a euphemism for the inculturation-and-reinterpretation part of its christianising India agenda.

Two important comments:

Quote:Ashok Kini (Kochi, India)


Bronze: 101

With due respect to the author, I regret to say that many of the names used in the Jesus Sahasranama namavali are copied/lifted from Hindu texts like Vishnu Sahasranama. Particularly the use of following names as that of Jesus is absurd 1. Govinda 2. Achyutha 3.Thrivikrama 4. Shankara 5.Shambu and many more. Govinda means cowherd, when was jesus a cowherd. He was a shepherd. Maheshwasa means one with bow full of arrows, when has jesus taken a bow in his hands. I request the author to come with an original work. In my humble opinion, this is not assimilation. This is just "appropriation" and shameless plagiarism.


Manoj S (Kerala (now in Delhi)) replies to Ashok Kini

Indian christians and hindus do not have much difference in culture... christians now give hindu names to their children, they practice 'ezhuthiniruthu' (vidyarambham) in churches, they give impartance to 'rahukalam" etc. so this also should not be an issue for both christains and hindus!!!!

Note: the 2 comments to the TOI article above are discussed further below in this post.

3. More stuff to read on the massive inculturation/appropriation project afoot in Kerala and TN is in the following recent 3-part series on christian inculturation by B.R. Haran at indiafacts:

a. indiafacts.co.in/christian-inculturation-tamil-nadu-blasphemes-thirukkural/

read in conjuction with the very important indiafacts.co.in/pattanam-excavations-prove-myth-st-thomas/

where Romila Tapar is documented peddling the St Thomas Myth (making Romila a cryptochristian too), and christianism invents "democratic archaeology" to oust objective archaeologists and invite christian frauds to forge Thomas into India's history to create a fake history of indigenousness and to eventually replace Hindu religion as the native religion. South India is *very* much a severe target of the conversion spree right now. And the designs on Pattanam, contrary to popular imagination, is not so much with an eye to Kerala - which is already significantly christianised - but with an eye on Tamilnadu.

b. indiafacts.co.in/christian-inculturation-hinduism-religious-prostitution/

c. indiafacts.co.in/christian-missionaries-target-every-single-component-hindu-society/

Am going to try to skip past the obvious problems that all Hindus would be aware of to the contentious points.

As seen above, the above is another classic case for why it's a Terrible Idea to teach un-Hindus and anti-Hindus yoga, Samskritam or anything.

The source of the problem is - repeat - Hindus' romantic notion that a mere acquaintance with yoga and Samskritam etc will "Hinduise" non-Hindu and anti-Hindu Indians. No, all it did was arm them and allow further inculturation.

Rather like Buddhists and Jains only further inculturated on Hindu religion the more they learnt of it.

Emperor Julian's statements via IIRC RSmith, reposted from here:

Quote:'If your own Scriptures are sufficient for you, why do you nibble at the learning of the Greeks?' (229c). The comment hints at the writer's outrage at the uses to which Christians have put the cultural heritage of the Greeks - an outrage plain in remarks that Julian makes elsewhere. Two of his unplaced fragments set out the issue succinctly:

[Let us ensure] that they [the Christians] may not, by sharpening their tongues, prepare themselves to take on the Greeks in debate ... for as the proverb has it, we are struck by our own arrows. For they arm themselves from our own writings to do battle with us.75

[1] On the first comment to the TOI news piece:

Christos encroaching on the concept of sahasranamas etc and the names of Hindoo Gods - including uniquely identifying names of Hindoo Gods (like Trivikrama) is not unlike what Buddhists and Jains did. The only difference is that Buddhists and Jains did it much before christians did.

For example, the Buddhist-Tara Sahasranamam etc is another case of Buddhists plagiarising features from Hindu religion for devices to peddle Buddhism with. The Jain sahasranamam referred to in Silappadikaaram likewise stole Hindoo Gods' names (and even "Veda" as a name), just as the christians are doing now - see further below.

E.g. Buddhism stole the names of Hindu Gods like "Yogeshwara" (now repeated by christians, who are using it for jeebus now, as seen in item #1 above with "jeebus the yogacharya") and Maheshwara and EVEN NeelakaNTha, see posts 241 and 242 of the Buddhism thread. Buddhism then grafted these Hindoo God names onto the Buddhist invention "avalokiteshwara", and then used it to try to encroach on Hindu temples and sites to Shiva and eventually Vishnu. That is, Buddhism's inculturation was also for 1. proselytising, same as in christianism's case, and for 2. acquiring things that Buddhism didn't have: i.e. stealing from Hindu religion to enrich Buddhism, just as christianism steals from Hindu religion to enrich the other pauper christianism.

And likewise, Jainism had done the same too:


Quote:Ilnago (Ilango, Hindoo author of Silappadikaaram, dated variously between 2nd century BCE to 5th century CE) was very familiar with 'sahasranamam' which means 1008 names of any god or goddess. In the Indra Festival 1008 kings bore on their heads gold pots filled with holy water and performed the bathing of Indra.

In the 'Natukan Katai' section Jain nun Kavunti says, "my tongue will not say anything other than the 1008 names".

The Hindu concept of 1008 names is used for Jains here.

In the 'Urkan Katai', the poet sings of 1008 gold coins.

Most of the Jain names listed earlier are Sanskrit terms, some are common to Saivite Gods: Jinendra, Siddha, Bhagavan, Dharma, Punya, Purana, Deva, Sivgathi Nayaka, Thathva, Sarana, Karana, Kumara, Sankara, Isa, Swayambhu, Chathurmuka, Arka, Veda with the Tamil suffix 'an' (Eg. Nayaka will be Nayakan in Tamil).

Uh, most if not all those names are Hindoo Gods' names. Arka is Surya's name, Chaturmukha is taken from Brahma, Kumara is Kumara, Dharma when without qualification is Yama. Other epithets are very common to Hindoo Gods: Deva and Isa are Vedic/Upanishadic term for the paramapuruSha. Etc etc. Jinendra was already used for Vishnu, Siddha when without qualification is a reference to Shiva, Bhagavan but also Tatva and Karana are typically Hindoo descriptives of the Gods re-interpreted into Jainism (Bhagavan was also hijacked by Buddhism, like Brahman was). And does one need to say anything at all about Sivagati and Shankara?

And don't miss the "Veda" at the end of that list of "Jain" teerthankara names. Tsss. [Jainism seems to have inserted Veda among the names like it did Purana (and Dharma and Punya and Deva): i.e. declaring that all key components and features of Hindoo religion led back to Jainism instead. = what christianism does too.]

But oh look, what a coincidence: like Jainism, christianism has also encroached on the name Isa and now Sankara too (see TOI news article above). And christianism will probably continue to do what Jainism and Buddhism did and steal a great many more Hindoo Gods' personal names, and then similarly declare that it was the "original" and that Vedic religion was the "plagiarist" and "invader".

While the blogger of tamilandvedas.com refers to the obvious and undeniable Jain inculturation on sahasranamas and appropriation of Hindoo God names as being merely "a commonality shared with Hindoo Gods incl. Shiva", the same uncalled-for magnanimity is not extended to current christian inculturation on these same names: Hindus are not yet ready to say that "jeebus too has sanskrit names already seen in Hindoo sahasranamas, including those 'shared' with Hindoo Gods like Vishnu and Shiva".

Q: why do modern Hindus not allow christians to get away with it, when the same Hindus continue to pretend it didn't all happen with Buddhism and Jainism too, which have now got away with *exactly* the same crime as christianism is presently engaged in? Hindus prefer to talk about how Buddhist and Jain encroachment on similarly-structured stotra literature (and mantras and Gods names and moorti fashioning and temple building and poojas and rites like yagnyopaveeta ceremonies and circling the sacred fire during marriage etc) are suddenly merely things shared "equally" between Hindu religion, Buddhism and Jainism, but when christianism does the same it is outed as an inculturationist.

In fact, Elstians and other new-agey Hindus use outward similarities like how Buddhists (and Jains and Sikhs) also use "OM" and "Swaha" and forms of mantras and even do the oxymoronic "Buddhist" "gomas" (homas) in Japan - all of which are classic cases of inculturation, by the way - to argue that "therefore" Buddhism and Jainism (and the now-independent Sikhism) are non-distinct from Hindu religion, "Hindus must agree".

And now that christianism has also taken over the OM and the gaayatree mantram (there are youtube videos on this, see HaindavaKeralam) and many mantras from our Vedas and Upanishads, the same new-agey Hindus should argue - unless they want to be seen for hypocrites - that christianism is non-distinct from Hindu religion/Hindus must roll-over and accept christian inculturation too.

Yet can see this very same double-handed dealing in even the likes of Malhotra who conveniently refers to "digestion" of Hindu religion only in terms of aliens and foreign missionary ideologies, but he refuses to notice that the missionary Indic religions already did the same. In fact, he lumps them with Hindu religion and his work essentially insists that Hindus may not distinguish between the Vedic=Hindu religion and the later inculturating missionary ideologies, by virtue of their being Indic too (which seems to be an excuse for not objecting to *their* pillaging, despite them being spin-offs that compete just like christianism).

The real problem is that Hindus' Vedic religion has since ancient times been the victim of inculturation and appropriation by missionary religions (be they Indic or otherwise, does it really matter? when it is the *same* crime for the same purpose: evangelisation and acquisition). And this problem is compounded by modern Hindus' hypocrisy in not recognising that they criminalise christianism uniquely for a crime that Buddhism and Jainism are no less guilty of.

And BTW, Buddhists and Jains are at it still, doing the same thing that christians are doing: using backprojection of their own late religions to declare that Hindu religion came later, that Hindus' Vedic religion supposedly inculturated from Buddhism/Jainism/christianism instead (in complete and demonstrable inversion), and ejecting Hindus' religion as non-native while presenting Buddhism/Jainism/christianism as native to India. (The Buddhist and Jain cases are already discussed in length in the Buddhism thread.) And all are doing it for evangelisation purposes.

So where's the difference?

It's all because of modern Hindus' lack of discernment: they prefer to look at current outward similarities between Jainism/Buddhism and Hindu religion to conclude that they're related, forgetting that the outward alike-ness came about by deliberate inculturation on the part of Jainism/Buddhism, no different than what christianism is doing now. And there's the actual difference: the timing. Christianism has started late, current Hindus can see the game going on before their eyes and object. But wait 2000 years and Rajeev Srinivasan's direct descendants will declare (oh you know they will, if Rajeev is any indication) that Trivikrama is a name of jeebus and that Onam is some allegory involving christians, like Rajeev did for Buddhism (and Witan for dravoodianism).

[2] On the second comment to the TOI news article:

Christians have now inculturated on 'ezhuthiniruthu' = vidyaarambham. Jains also inculturated on vidyarambham and a whole lot more: all the rites that punctuate a Hindoo's Vedic life. Including homas during marriage and the yagnyopaveeta ceremony. Yes, Jain copying is as bad as Buddhist copying with their "gomas" centred suddenly around Buddhist/Bauddhified entities.

So when tomorrow, christians conduct weddings with homas and circling the sacrificial fire, and when christians have upaveetam ceremonies (which I think "Mangalorean" [Goan] christians already do), and when christians perform gomas with jeebusjehovallah as the centre of the rite, Hindus surely won't complain? It's nothing that Buddhism and Jainism didn't do, after all.

And when jeebusjehovallah worshippers come out with their own spins on Ramayanam and Mahabharatam - and the Trivikrama vs Mahabali account - no doubt Indiafacts entities like the one who wrote an article about how all Ramayana variants are equally valid can declare that any upcoming christian Ramayana/MBh is also "equally" valid. No? Why not? So what if some more centuries have elapsed from Valmeeki and Vyasa's originals and the further traditionally-Hindoo variants, since if the Jain and Buddhist inculturationist versions are extended equal validity to the Hindoo original and Hindoo variants, then so can christian inculturating spin-offs that appear tomorrow acquire equal validity for plagiarising of the same Hindoo source. Given enough time, christian variants too will be "old and ancient and established".

IIRC one of the comments to this post's first-linked article - at HaindavaKeralam - complained about how the extent of christian inculturation is so far gone now that christians would probably next start on pillaging from the Ramayanam. But then, christians wouldn't be the first to do that and get away with it, would they?

At least the logic of the christoconditioned (else cryptochristo) Manoj S - the 2nd comment pasted here from the comments section of the TOI article - holds with that of most other Hindu (nationalist) vocalists including Malhotra, who also argue based on current outward similarity between Jainism/Buddhism(/Sikhism) and Hindu religion that these are all related. [In fact, though Malhotra - who has turned the word digestion (appropriation) into a phrase - has tried to warn against digestion of Indic traditions, he is unable to recognise that Hindu religion was the victim of digestion by other Indic religions long before the west or even christianism got in on the action.]

The current christian encroachment on Vishnu's personal name Trivikrama is - just as Buddhist encroachment on Shiva and other Hindoo God names was - a precursor to christians further christianising the sacred Kerala Hindoo festival "Onam". Christians may well start claiming Trivikrama temples after that, like Buddhists and Jains (and Bauddhified) have been claiming Hindoo temples in India especially the south.

That christianism plans its takeover programmes well in advance is already seen in the very important article indiafacts.co.in/pattanam-excavations-prove-myth-st-thomas/

Christians have already been attempting to claim Maariamman is "mary" for some time, to encroach on all Maariamman temples. (Buddhists already tried that with Maariamman temples in TN and Bhagavati temples in Kerala too not to mention with Aiyyanaar temples in TN, just like Buddhism encroached on Taoist temples to a Daoist Goddess in E and SE Asia after Buddhism had encroached on her as "Guan-Yin". It's what Buddhism does.)

Where Maariamman is concerned - note Maari is a famous name of Durga from Durga and Lakshi sahasranaamas and Devi Mahatmyam etc - christianism has already started with this multi-pronged christian encroachment project by encroaching on Ardhanaareeshwara, since Maariamman is usually depicted with features of Ardhanaaree: crescent moon in her hair (since the Shiva half is Shashidhara), trishoolam, damaru in hand etc.

The important part of this post is

all the links and text in quoteblocks
TOI, the famous crypto-christian paper promoting inculturation, is at it again:


1. Note the invention of an allegedly "ancient" Indian "christian" art form, which is essentially a pillaging of Hindu religious expression in theatre, martial arts and dance (dubbed "Indian" here by the christists, to avoid admitting the theft from Hindu religion), but with some superficial christoportuguese elements dashed on top, to pass it off like it's an "Indian" catholic evolution.

= exactly what christianism earlier tried do to Bharatanatyam etc. Now christianism has just decided to inculturate on Bharatanatyam and carnatic music wholesale, after explaining away - or rather "re-interpreting" (into a christian POV) - the Hindoo-isms in it.

2. Just like the sudden nouveau Buddhist encroachment on Ayyappa (which the likes of Rajeev Srinivasan and his sycophant readers bought wholesale), christianism has christian designs on Ayyappa.

It always starts like this: pretending they are re-enacting Indian mythology (=first step: renaming Hindoo religion into "Indian" mythology). Then again, did not Rajeev declare that Ayyappa was all-Indian having Buddhist and islamic connections (the islamic connection is a *known* late addition from recent centuries, while the Buddhist nonsense is the recent invention, from a few decades back).

Then again, if Lokesh Chandra's drivel on Sabarimalai/Ayyappa - peddled hard and repeatedly by Rajeev Srinivasan - didn't get a murmur of protest from the usual gaggle of visible "Hindus" spamming the internet, then why should anyone complain about the above (and subsequent) developments?

(Oooh, sudden thought: Like Witan fell for dravoodianism concerning Trivikrama-vs-Mahabali, and Rajeev got Bauddhified over Trivikirama-vs-Mahabali as well as Ayyappa at Sabarimalai, wonder which "Hindu nationalist" vocalist will next fall for the christianism slowly being drawn around the Hindu God Ayyappa?)

It's like PK: why object to its anti-Hinduism, when no one objected to the same sort of nonsense happening closer to home (again, the example of Elst lecturing to Hindus that "the MBh reveals Krishna to be a womanizer, please don't be in denial", or Rajeev Srinivasan-Lokesh Chandra's Bauddhified tripe).
Postscript to post 35 above.

The tamilandvedas.com site repeatedly states that the Silappadikaaram is an "encyclopaedia of Hinduism". While there are naturally references to Jainism and Buddhism (and the Ajeevika religion) in this compendium of Hindoo-ism - since by that time, Ajeevikas, then Jains and eventually Buddhists had presumably** already come down to south India* - one of the pages of the tamilandvedas blog further mentions that only 4% of the Hindoo text features Jainism and only 1% features Buddhism (and may include Ajeevikas in that same 1%), while the remaining 95% of the Silappadikaaram is simply about Hindoo religion. But then, it is -after all- a Hindoo text authored by a Hindoo yati.

* In contrast, note how there is Absolutely No Mention of even a whiff of christianism in Silappadikaaram either, or even in Manimekhalai etc. This means christianism will need to forge in evidence of itself into these texts - backprojection. Christianism made a mistake in shifting Silappadikaaram further down in time: this has introduced a greater problem to christianism in that even in the 5th century CE, as Silappadikaaram is now dated to, there is no mention of christianism anywhere in TN/Kerala. But there is documented evidence of Tamil Nadu being prodigiously Hindu in Silappadikaaram's era (not to mention of all the references to Bharata Natyam being exclusively Hindoo still).

** Others have argued that there is some indication that the Buddhist religious contents of Manimekhalai were directly transposed from a Buddhist religious work in another southern language (one which was a purely religious text and had no story backdrop), and that Buddhism merely used older Tamizh elements as a framing story/narrative device/setting for "Manimekhalai". If this turns out to be true, it would point to a case of forgery too. All sorts of further pesky questions would then arise.
1. hinduismtoday.com/blogs-news/hindu-press-international/to-make-yoga-the-common-man-s-choice--modi-government-to-drop-all-references-to--om--from-promotion/14315.html

Quote:To Make Yoga the Common Man's Choice, Modi Government to Drop all References to 'Om' from Promotion

on 2015/4/20 17:56:27 ( 258 reads )


NEW DELHI, INDIA, April 18, 2015 (Times of India): To make yoga an aam [Hindi for "common," as in "common man"] lifestyle choice in a country where religious symbolism often attracts high-voltage political controversies, Modi Sarkar is dropping all references to Om -- the traditional mystical invocation related to Hindu spirituality and yoga practice -- in its coming high-powered promotion of this ancient discipline. Senior officials involved in the government's extensive preparations to celebrate the June 21 International Yoga Day told ET that the brief is to keep the effort "free of controversy." Therefore, there will be no reference to aum in the 33-minute Common Yoga Protocol that's been prepared by the department of AYUSH (ayurveda, yoga & naturopathy, unani, siddha and homoeopathy), as well as all literature and video being prepared for the June 21 celebration.

2. One of the images found at


[Image: 3.%2BJesus%2BSaffron%2BSadhus.jpg]

3. X-post.

[quote name='Husky' date='23 April 2015 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1429790842' post='117654']

Image found at


[Image: 4.%2BHindu%2BJesus.png]

Oh look, that's exactly what Buddhism (and Jainism too) pulled on the Vedic=Hindoo Gods. (Actually Buddhism also pulled it on Taoist Gods and Goddesses and Shinto ones. It even tried it on Greek Gods in Hellenised parts of Afghanistan. For instance, Buddhism turned Hercules the son of Zeus into a Bodhisattva fraud.)

Then enough time passed and Buddhism tried to encroach on Hindoo temples via its inculturation on Hindoo Gods. (E.g. the Avalokiteshwara fraud I mean fiction.) And it encroached on Taoist temples via the Buddhist inculturation on Taoist Gods (e.g. the Avalokiteshwara fiction again) etc.

Still more time passed, and today's Bauddhified "Hindus" (i.e. "Hindus" in love with Buddhism and who know more about Buddhism's inculturating fictions, including especially the recently-invented ones, than about Hindoo religion and Gods, they're that far gone) start believing in the Buddhist inculturation on Hindoo Gods and speaking of "syncretism/composite culture", that it must be equally Buddha/Bodhisattva and equally a Hindu God, and that this is "authentic", that Buddhism should have equal claims on the Hindoo Gods. And tomorrow the same types of ignorant Bauddhified will start claiming the "legitimacy" of Buddhist encroachment on Hindoo temples in TN. Tamil Hindoos should tell Bauddhified "hindoos" from other parts of the subcontinent to Stay Away (or else).

Anyway, the point of the above is to remark that the same process, given enough time, will happen with the jeebus inculturations on Hindoo Gods too.

Having inculturated on Vishnu by turning jeebus blue and giving him a shankha and chakra, and by presenting jeebus in the pose of Krishna in the Gita with the chariot and 4 horses,

in time, the evil jeebus-demons will - like their ancient Buddhist counterparts did with Vishnu, Shiva etc - start encroaching on Vishnu temples and declare that this is "actually jeebus" and hence "belongs to christianism" and "isn't a Hindoo temple but a christian church".

Later still, they will argue that "therefore, the people worshipping at these 'temples' were 'originally, actually' followers of Jainism I mean Buddhism I mean christianism, who were duped by the Vedic swindle/brahmanism into thinking these were Hindoo temples to the Hindoo=Vedic Gods instead".

That is EXACTLY what Buddhism and Jainism have done w.r.t. their missionary literature claiming Hindoo temples and their moorties.

And that is exactly what christianism will do. Hindoos do not seem to know this part of their history. But they would be wise to learn from it and be prepared for it.

Who says christianism is unlike the Indic religions? In behaviour and methodology, it is very like the Indic missionary religions/replacement theologies that sought to replace Hindoo heathenism aka Vedic religion aka Sanatana Dharma.

And just like Buddhism and Jainism consciously attempted to look more and more Hindoo by inculturating on Hindoo heathenism, so too christianism is starting to look more and more Hindoo by inculturating on Hindoo heathenism.

Doesn't mean that any of these missionary religions are actually related to the religion of the Hindoo Gods: just 'cause they look outwardly increasingly similar to Hindoos' heathenism, doesn't mean they're *actually* similar.

The minute jeebusites start referring to the word "dharma" (maybe they will encroach on it as theirs, the way Buddhism and Jainism did), Hindus will be forced to refer to it as a Dharmic religion. (And for the same reasons: inculturation on outward forms and terminology given twisted I mean re-interpreted meanings.) And then, christianism will also become as equally related to Vedic religion as Buddhism, Jainism etc are, so that "Hindu" "nationalists"/vocalists who've so often been seen claiming that Hindoos' heathenism = Buddhism = Jainism may start adding christianism to that running equivalence.

It is all the same (stupidity) after all. Now's not the time to start developing some powers of discrimination, so late. And let's not be partial either: let's not discriminate against christianism. No one wants to discover they're a hypocrite, after all.

This tendency to equalise is going to become a lodestone around modern Hindus' necks and all because they couldn't distinguish their own ancestral religion - where it begins and ends - from the other, later, inculturating Indic religions. <- It's actually Not all "the same" or "similar" to Hindoos' Vedic religion. Well, no more similar than christianism is to Hindoos' heathenism.

HK site's been down. Checked their twitter account and it's still active.

Post 1/2


HaindavaKeralam @HKupdate · Apr 10

Dear ArchBishop how cn u call 4 Convr'sn &Opose #Gharwapsi in 1 breath?

Admit tht urs z a failed busines model & Quit




Call 4 intensive Evangelisation by Catholic Bishop Arch Bishop undr d pretext of dwindling Xian population

https:// pbs.twimg.com/media/CCPrWOsW4AAcwuU.jpg

Could explain the following (oh look, this degree of inculturation is what Buddhism and Jainism did too - and now they also pretend to have been originals, even as Hindoos are made to believe it by the process of gradual Bauddhification, so "tomorrow" by a process of gradual christianisation, Hindoos will be made to believe the following christian inculturations on Hindoo religion point to christianism being "a continuation of Hindoo religion too"):




Xian Manorama want 2 opose #Gharwapsi & promote ChristhuBhagvadgitha

Y promote the duplicate whn Original available?

(You mean, like Buddhism and its plagiarised Jatakas - plagiarised from Ramayanam etc and other Vaidika literature - which Buddhists used to promote Buddhism as a replacement of Vedic religion, when the originals were available? Same thing. Same reasons: for proselytising to achieve replacement.)


[Image: CBmGxlkW0AANZX1.jpg]
(Note style of drawing is a total plagiarism from traditional Kerala temple paintings style.

I figure christianism converted a traditional Hindu artist and now he's painting the jeebus fiction with Hindoo heathenism's artistic styles that had been taught to him when he was still a heathen.

The alternative is that christianism merely hired a still-Hindoo artist using lots of moolah to depict The Jeebus Falsehood in Hindoo imagery style. Can still see Hindoos make jeebus/mary statuettes, just like southern Hindoos have since longer been making Buddha images etc. even when their religion was the victim of proselytisation and inculturation.)




@mediacrooks amazing but true. "siluvai alwar" by rural theological institute in madurai http:// fcraonline.nic.in/fc3_verify.aspx?RCN=075940046R&by=2011-2012 …


[Image: BmOmz-3IQAAMx-f.jpg]

The competing Indic religions copied the Hindoo style of sacred imagery too. Although, Hindoos had foolishly started making images for Buddhism first: Hindoo Rajas commissioned Hindoos to make them. But then Buddhism started making their numerous Buddha and Bodhisattva fictions look more and more like Hindoo Gods - i.e. inculturation - and elsewhere [in Afghanistan] made these look like Greek Gods and heroes instead, and elsewhere [in Japan] like Shinto Gods and elsewhere [in China and Chinese regions] like Taoist Gods, and elsewhere like Bon Gods. SAME thing. Same criminality at the end of the day. And clearly the inculturation worked: lots of people buy that it's all "equally" Buddhist or even "originally" Buddhist.

And this:




Surprised? It's not #Sabarimala going Ayyappa devotees.But another form of #kerala Evangelist plagiarism for survival


[Image: CCmpRMXWYAA5j5B.jpg]
(Note the image on the umbrellas: jeebus and another christofiction are depicted together in Gita's Krishna-and-Arjuna pose)

More pictures in the above series:

https:// pbs.twimg.com/media/CCmpSS0W0AAFzfZ.jpg

https:// pbs.twimg.com/media/CCmoxXxW0AAYuyP.jpg

https:// pbs.twimg.com/media/CCmo3N9WAAEojle.jpg

Like the Bauddhified Rajeev Srinivasan - who declared that Sabarimalai must have been Buddhist (because the Bauddhified/cryptoBuddhist Lokesh Chandra declared so, based on LC's terrible 'scholarship' and outright *twisting* of facts)

- again: just like Bauddhified Rajeev Srinivasan based himself on LC's nonsense to imagine a history where "Buddhists must have pilgrimaged to Sabarimalai long ago" and that Shiva and Vishnu and even Ayyappa (of all Gods) could be conflated with the fake Avalokiteshwara of Buddhism,

likewise, future Hindus - christianised - will be declaring that jeebus is non-distinct from Vishnu/Krishna.

[In fact, it might be - probably will be - Rajeev Srinivasan's own progeny/progeny of his relatives.

Subvertibility seems to be inherited. The inverse is sadly not true: insubvertibility is not necessarily inherited.

Something to look forward to.]
Post 2/2

Christians inculturating on Kerala's Hindoo festival Vishu:

1. Here's the Hindoo version

https:// twitter.com/HKupdate/status/588116252276744192


[Image: CClonShWMAE9EaO.jpg]

2. And here's the christians, having encroached on Kerala's Hindoo festival Onam (and even Vishnu's name Trivikrama, for this purpose), have now moved on to turning Vishu into a jeebus festival. Same time, but deity replaced:

https:// twitter.com/HKupdate/status/587952069451087873



#InferiorityComplex of Evangelical #copycat 's-Xian #Vishu

Follow pagans as desert religion can't fascinate natives


[Image: CCjTSoPWYAALPup.jpg]

Look how in Kerala the christian demons - spurred by their catholic bishop (see previous post) to "intensively evangelise" - have encroached on Vishnu. Since Vishnu is one of the central Hindoo Gods of Kerala.

Worrying that christianism will repeat what Buddhism did: Buddhism, after encroaching on the names and appearances of specific Hindoo Gods, went and encroached on the temples to these Hindoo Gods.

[Worried also that Rajeev Srinivasan types will next declare - as RS did for Buddhism - that the ancient Hindoo temples to Vishnu (Trivikrama and Krishna etc) in Kerala "were once temples/churches to jeebus". And that all references to Trivikrama are actually references to jeebus, the way RS declared that "Shaastaa is a reference to Buddha". And that because christists in Kerala now have jeebus in yoga and Gita pose that Hindoo Gods in Yoga poses and Krishna's Gita pose is "actually jeebus", the way RS declared that Ayyappa is sitting and that Buddha is often in a sitting yoga pose and that "therefore" Ayyappa was Buddhist. Etc etc.]

"That's mean". No it's not mean. It's what Rajeev Srinivasan factually did - documented somewhere in the Buddhism thread. Even he is prone to this (and many have parroted him blindly). So many more will be prone to falling for similar frauds too. Tomorrow someone quite like him - another "Hindu" nationalist - will be promoting christianism by encroaching on Hindu religion (Gods, their moorties and temples and poses and stotras) in the same manner. It's very scary, but clearly it's very plausible, being the reality in the likes of RS and Witan etc.

The church is no doubt banking on such subvertibles. Indians are so easy after all: many de-heathenise easily (can be easily Bauddhised by Buddhist inculturation or merely recent Buddhist dawaganda. So why can't they be christianised in the same manner? Like many "Hindu" bharatanatyam dancers are peddling christian rewrites of the Hindoo history of Bharatanatyam and the Tamil Sanghams.)

The important stuff is the images in this and the previous 2 posts.

Forum Jump:

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)