Pre-modern Warfare:India And Elsewhere

[Guest]

Here it is.

http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/histo...astra/index.htm

I've been reading Books X to XIII but still can't find references to catapults or siege weaponry.

I'll try reading the other chapters.

[Guest]

[quote=Hauma Hamiddha,Apr 4 2006, 08:22 AM]
[quote=vsubrama001,Apr 4 2006, 03:59 AM]
taittirIya AraNyaka 1.5.1 talks about agni-jhiva (see http://www.sanskritweb.net/yajurveda/ta-01.pdf) and not Shataghni.

Please look at TA 1.5.1 again.


<b>Could you kindly translate the verses 1.5.1 please. This will greatly help me understand the context

Thanks</b>

[ramana]

Might be linked elsewhere. War in Ancient India

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Liang Jieming+Apr 8 2006, 01:04 AM-->QUOTE(Liang Jieming @ Apr 8 2006, 01:04 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Here it is.

http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/histo...astra/index.htm

I've been reading Books X to XIII but still can't find references to catapults or siege weaponry.

I'll try reading the other chapters.
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I still can't find references in this online Arthashastra on catapults. Either, 1.) there are no catapults on the Arthashastra, or 2.) this online translation has mistranslated the terms and some of the brief references to weapons are actually catapults.

Anyone else have a clue?

Jieming

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Apr 10 2006, 12:14 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Apr 10 2006, 12:14 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Might be linked elsewhere. War in Ancient India
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Interesting link!

Under "Laws of War", the picture of the Mahabharata War, an artist impression where the blue coloured Shiva(?) is holding up a horizontal wheel, a Savatobharata(?) perhaps?

Jieming

[Guest]

http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/histo...stra/BookII.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->CHAPTER XVIII.  THE SUPERINTENDENT OF THE ARMOURY.

        THE Superintendent of the Armoury shall employ experienced workmen of tried ability to manufacture in a given time and for fixed wages wheels, weapons, mail armour, and other accessory instruments for use in battles, in the construction or defence of forts, or in destroying the cities or strongholds of enemies.

        All these weapons and instruments shall be kept in places suitably prepared for them. They shall not only be frequently dusted and transferred from one place to another, but also be exposed to the sun. Such weapons as are likely to be affected by heat and vapour (úshmopasneha) and to be eaten by worms shall be kept in safe localities. They shall also be examined now and then with reference to the class to which they belong, their forms, their characteristics, their size, their source, their value, and their total quantity.

        <b>Sarvatobhadra, jamadagnya, bahumukha, visvásagháti, samgháti, yánaka, parjanyaka, ardhabáhu, and úrdhvabáhu are immoveable machines (sthirayantrám).

        Pánchálika, devadanda, súkarika, musala, yashti, hastiváraka, tálavrinta, mudgara, gada, spriktala, kuddála, ásphátima, audhghátima, sataghni, trisúla, and chakra are moveable machines.

        Sakti, prása, kunta, hátaka, bhindivála, súla, tomara, varáhakarna, kanaya, karpana, trásika, and the like are weapons with edges like a ploughshare (halamukháni).

        Bows made of tála (palmyra), of chápa (a kind of bamboo), of dáru (a kind of wood), and sringa (bone or horn) are respectively called kármuka, kodanda, druna, and dhanus.

        Bow-strings are made of múrva (Sansviera Roxburghiana), arka (Catotropis Gigantea), sána (hemp), gavedhu (Coix Barbata), venu (bamboo bark), and snáyu (sinew).

        Venu, sara, saláka, dandásana, and nárácha are different kinds of arrows. The edges of arrows shall be so made of iron, bone or wood as to cut, rend or pierce.

        Nistrimsa, mandalágra, and asiyashti are swords. The handles of swords are made of the horn of rhinoceros, buffalo, of the tusk of elephants, of wood, or of the root of bamboo.

        Parasu, kuthára, pattasa, khanitra, kuddála, chakra, and kándachchhedana are razor-like weapons.

        Yantrapáshána, goshpanapáshána, mushtipáshána, rochaní (mill-stone), and stones are other weapons (áyudháni).

        Lohajáliká, patta, kavacha, and sútraka are varieties of armour made of iron or of skins with hoofs and horns of porpoise, rhinoceros, bison, elephant or cow.

        Likewise sirastrána (cover for the head), kanthatrána (cover for the neck) kúrpása (cover for the trunk), kanchuka (a coat extending as far as the knee joints), váravána (a coat extending as far as the heels), patta, (a coat without cover for the arms), and nágodariká (gloves) are varieties of armour.

        Veti, charma, hastikarna, tálamúla, dharmanika, kaváta, kitika, apratihata, and valáhakánta are instruments used in self-defence (ávaranáni).

        Ornaments for elephants, chariots, and horses as well as goads and hooks to lead them in battle-fields constitute accessory things (upakaranáni).</b>

        (Besides the above) such other delusive and destructive contrivances (as are treated of in Book XIV) together with any other new inventions of expert workmen (shall also be kept in stock.)

        The Superintendent of Armoury shall precisely ascertain the demand and supply of weapons, their application, their wear and tear, as well as their decay and loss.

[Thus ends Chapter XVIII, “The Superintendent of the Armoury” in Book II, “The Duties of Government Superintendents,” of the Arthasástra of Kautilya. End of thirty-ninth chapter from the beginning.
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[Guest]

Arrrggghhhh... dammit. How in the world did I miss that. Thanks Mudy.

Here's more from the same book, chapter V, but no descriptions of the weapons except for recognisable names like the Yantra, Sataghni etc.

"In those canals, there shall be collected stones, spades (kuddála), axes (kuthári), varieties of staffs, cudgel (musrinthi), hammers (mudgara), clubs, discus, machines (yantra), and such weapons as can destroy a hundred persons at once (sataghni), together with spears, tridents, bamboo-sticks with pointed edges made of iron, camel-necks, explosives (agnisamyógas), and whatever else can be devised and formed from available materials."

Mudy, do you know where the weapons are described in detail?

[Guest]

I will ask Hauma to help us. I don't have access to resources here in US. I have sent emails to couple of people in India to dig on these weapons. Let see when I get response.
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[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Liang Jieming+Apr 9 2006, 10:13 PM-->QUOTE(Liang Jieming @ Apr 9 2006, 10:13 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Apr 10 2006, 12:14 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ramana @ Apr 10 2006, 12:14 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Might be linked elsewhere. War in Ancient India
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Interesting link!

Under "Laws of War", the picture of the Mahabharata War, an artist impression where the blue coloured Shiva(?) is holding up a horizontal wheel, a Savatobharata(?) perhaps?

Jieming
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No. It is Srikrishna, who after seeing a ferocious Bhisma kill large parts of Pandava army, picks up the wheel of the chariot to kill Bhisma. Srikrishna had vowed not to bear arms in this war and only be a charioteer for Arjuna. Arjuna is seen pleading with Srikrishna not to break his vow of not bearing arms.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-LSrini+Apr 11 2006, 12:04 AM-->QUOTE(LSrini @ Apr 11 2006, 12:04 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->No.  It is Srikrishna, who after seeing a ferocious Bhisma kill large parts of Pandava army, picks up the wheel of the chariot to kill Bhisma.  Srikrishna had vowed not to bear arms in this war and only be a charioteer for Arjuna.  Arjuna is seen pleading with Srikrishna not to break his vow of not bearing arms.
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Ah... yes I remember this part of the story. I had read some parts of the Mahabharata when I was younger. Thanks!

[Guest]

Hi, anyone with more info? I need to wrap stuff up soon as the 1st edition of the book is due to the printers by end of the month.

Thanks!

Jieming

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Liang Jieming,Apr 18 2006, 12:16 PM<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

dear Jieming,
sorry for joining so late into the topic. i have just seen the posts and responding off-hand.
as the names indicate :
1.mahasailakantaka is a big arrow thrower.maha saila=big mountain,kantaka=thorn:a needle like projection
2.Sarvatobhadra= this name also occures in architecture.it indicates a plus type construction,as a weapon this is a cannon,which turns fourside on a pivot.
3.Hastivaraka= may be an ancient version of anti-tanker.
4.Mayayantra= This should be deciphered,since Maya is the name of the designer of gods,what miraculous elements.....
5.Talavrinta= may be a gaint missile launcher
6.Vyamisra= this is aquite interesting name because it is a multi object using weapon which confuses the enemies.
Any how all the best for your research.and thanks for enkindling interest on a subject that was lost to the Indians.

[Guest]

Thanks Sree,

Do you know of any ancient text which gives descriptions of how some of these might have been constructed or worked?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Any how all the best for your research.and thanks for enkindling interest on a subject that was lost to the Indians.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hehe, you're quite welcome, but my reasons are hardly as noble as you've made them out to be. I'm primarily reseaching Chinese catapults and the general development history of catapults and their technological spread. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Jieming

[Guest]

<!--emo&:bcow--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_cowboy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_cowboy.gif' /><!--endemo--> [quote=Liang Jieming,Apr 19 2006, 07:42 AM]
Dear Jieming,
Please go through the link.It may of some use.
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/War_in..._India.htm

[Guest]

DHANURVEDA - Veda relating to the Art / Science of Archery
© B. Chakravarti, ATARN, 2001

[ramana]

posted by Murugan in Bharat Rakshak site:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The history of ancient India is largely a history of Hindu culture and progress. Hindu culture  has a distinct claim to a higher antiquity than Assyrian schools would claim for Sargon I and as much or even higher antiquity than Egyptian scholars would claim for the commencement of the first dynasty of Kings. <b>One aspect of this culture consists in India's political institutions which were almost modern. Modern warfare has developed on mechanical lines, giving less scope for the qualities of courage and individual leadership.</b>

The value and importance of the army were realized very early in the history of India, and this led to the maintenance of a permanent militia to put down dissent within and arrest aggression from without. This gave rise to the Ksatriya warrior caste, and the ksatram dharmam came to mean the primary duty of war. To serve the country by participating in war became the svadharma of this  warrior community.

Hindu military science recognizes two kinds of warfare - the dharmayuddha and the kutayuddha. <b> Dharmayuddha is war carried on the principles of dharma, meaning here the Ksatradharma or the law of Kings and Warriors. In other words, it was a just and righteous war which had the approval of society. On the other hand, kuttayuddha was unrighteous war. It was a crafty fight carried on in secret <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> </b>

The Hindu science of warfare values both niti and saurya i.e. ethical principles and valor. It was therefore realized that the <b>waging of war without regard to moral standards degraded the institution into mere animal ferocity</b>. A monarch desirous of dharma vijaya should conform to the code of ethics enjoined upon warriors. The principles regulating the two kinds of warfare are elaborately described in the Dharmasutras and Dharmasastras, the epics (Ramayana and Mahabharata), the Arthasastra treatises of Kautalya, Kamandaka, and Sukra. <b> Hindu India possessed the classical fourfold force of chariots, elephants, horsemen, and infantry, collectively known as the Caturangabala. </b>

Students also know that the old game of chess also goes by the name of Caturanga. From the references to this game in the Rg Veda and the Atharva Veda and in the Buddhists and Jaina books, it must have been very popular in ancient India. The Persian term Chatrang and the Arabic Shatrang are forms of the Sanskrit Caturanga.

<b>According to Sir A. M. Eliot and Heinrich Brunnhofer (a German Indologist) and Gustav Oppert, all of whom have stated that ancient Hindus knew the use of gunpowder. Eliot tells us that the Arabs learnt the manufacture of gunpowder from India, and that before their Indian connection they had used arrows of naptha. It is also argued that though Persia possessed saltpetre in abundance, the original home of gunpowder was India.</b>

In the light of the above remarks we can trace the evolution of fire-arms in the ancient India. (source: German Indologists: Biographies of Scholars in Indian Studies writing in German - By Valentine Stache-Rosen. p.92). Terence Duke, author of The Boddhisattva Warriors: The Origin, Inner Philosophy, History and Symbolism of the Buddhist Martial Art Within India and China, says that martial arts went from India to China and fighting without weapons was a specialty of the ancient Ksatreya warriors of India. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

***

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It would be interesting to examine the true nature of the agneya-astras. Kautalya describes agni-bana, and mentions three recipes - agni-dharana, ksepyo-agni-yoga, and visvasaghati. Visvasaghati was composed of 'the powder of all the metals as red as fire or the mixture of the powder of kumbhi, lead, zinc, mixed with the charcoal and with oil wax and turpentine.' From the nature of the ingredients of the different compositions it would appear that they were highly inflammable and could not be easily extinguished.

A recent writer remarks: 'The Visvasaghati-agni-yoga was virtually a bomb which burst and the fragments of metals were scattered in all directions. The agni-bana was the fore-runner of a gun-shot.....

Sir A. M. Eliot tells us that the Arabs learnt the manufacture of gunpowder from India, and that before their Indian connection they had used arrows of naptha. It is also argued that though Persia possessed saltpetre in abundance, the original home of gunpowder was India. It is said that the Turkish word top and the Persian tupang or tufang are derived from the Sanskrit word dhupa. The dhupa of the Agni Purana means a rocket, perhaps a corruption of the Kautaliyan term natadipika.

(source: Fire-Arms in Ancient India -  By Jogesh Chandra Ray I.H.Q. viii. p. 586-88).

Heinrich Brunnhofer (1841-1917), German Indologist, also believed that the ancient Aryans of India knew about gunpowder.

(source: German Indologists: Biographies of Scholars in Indian Studies writing in German - By Valentine Stache-Rosen. p.92).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

***

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Dr. Oppert refers to half a dozen temples in South India to prove the use of fire-arms in ancient India. The Palni temple in the Madura District contains on the outer portion in an ancient stone mantapa scenes of carved figures of soldiers carrying in their hands small fire-arms, apparently the small-sized guns mentioned in the Sukranitisara. Again in the Sarnagapani temple at  Kumbakonam in the front gate of the fifth story from the top is the  figure of a king sitting in a chariot drawn by horses and surrounded by a number of soldiers.  Before this chariot march two sepoys with pistols in their hands. In the  Nurrukkal mantapam  of the  Conjeevaram temple is a pillar on the north side of the mandapa. Here is a relief vividly representing a flight between two bodies of soldiers. Mounted horsemen are also seen. The foot-soldier is shown aiming his fire-arm against the enemy. Such things are also noted in the Tanjore temple and the temple at Perur, in the Coimbatore District. In the latter there is an actual representation of a soldier loading a musket.

The Borobudar in Java where Indian tradition is copied wholesale. They are ascribed roughly to the period 750-850 A.D. There is a striking relief series PL. I, fig. 5, (1605) representing a battle in which two others are seen on each side, one wearing a curved sword in the right hand and a long shield, and the other a mace and a round shield resembling a wheel, all apparently made of iron. The story of the Ramayana is also given as in the Tadpatri temple from Rama's going to the forest down to the killing of Ravana. There is also a wonderful sculpture of an ancient Hindu ship.

(source: Suvarnadvipa - By R.C. Majumdar. pp 194-5). <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

***

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Sukraniti while referring to fire-arms, (agneyastras) says that before any war, the duty of the minister of war is to check up the total stock of gunpowder in the arsenal. Small guns is referred as tupak by Canda Baradayi. The installation of yantras (engines of war) inside the walls of the forts referred to by Manasollasa and the reference of Sataghni (killer of hundreds of men) pressed into service for the protection of the forts by Samaranganasutradhara clearly reveals the frequent use of fire arms in the battle-field.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

***

Agnichurna = gunpowder
The agnicurna or gunpowder was composed of 4 to 6 parts of saltpetre, one part of sulphur, and one part of charcoal of arka, sruhi and other trees burnt in a pit and reduced to powder. Here is certain evidence of the ancient rockets giving place to actual guns in warfare. From the description of the composition of gunpowder, the composition of the Sukraniti can be dated at the pre-Gupta age.

(source: War in Ancient India - By V. R. Ramachandra Dikshitar 1944. p. 103 -105).

*
The Nalika is a hand gun or musket rightly piercing the mark. It was straight in form and hollow inside. It discharged darts if ignited. As has been already said, Sukracarya speaks of two kinds of nalika, one big and the other small. The small one, with a little hole at the end, measured sixty angulas (ie. distance between the thumb and the little finger) dotted with several spots at the muzzle end. Through the touch hole or at its breach which contained wood, fire was conveyed to the charge. It was generally used by foot-soldiers. But the big gun had no wood at the breach and was so heavy that it had to be conveyed in carts. The balls were made of iron, lead or other material. Kamandaka uses the word nalika in the sense of firing gun as a signal for the unwary king. Again in the Naisadha, a work of the medieval period, Damayanti is compared to the two bows of the god of love and goddess of love, and her two nostrils to the two guns capable of throwing balls.

Thus there is clear evidence of the existence and use of firing guns in India in very early times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

43 mb documantry on moghals,
Keywords: Panipat battle technique, Ibrahim Lodhi, Moghal Composite Bow, Babar

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7GT4DSQ0


63 mb documantry on Armor plated moghal elephant
Keywords: Moghal, armored elephant, Akbar, Elephant war techniques, tusc sword,
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=I6TDUTTZ


23 Mb The siege of Chittor
Keywords: Rajput, Akbar, Chittor, mughal sword.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J3K74OH7

Mughals get credited for creating great architecture like water garderns etc. quite shocking, as they were nothing more than barberic nomades. They could not possibly have the refine knowledge that went in to creating their buildings. Whose land, who's wealth, who's knowledge and who gets the credit for all that?

[ramana]

Take a look at the pdf file on ancient Chinese weapons. I wish that we could get a group to put a book together with the text in this thread and some notional pictures on ancient Indian weaponry.

Link: http://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/tg/tmiltech.pdf

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The Musuem at Vellore Fort</b>

<img src='http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2597/307/1600/IMG_0306.1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

These bronze swords were apparently evacuated from the locality. They are from about 1000 BCE apparently.
http://indiansculpture.blogspot.com/<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[ramana]

Armaments Museum

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->By  Abhijit C Chandra  On   

An eye-catching 18th-century 'jireh bakhtar'(chainmail armour) that might have protected a warrior from deadly sword thrusts and a lethal pen-shaped pistol that could be easily kept in the pocket, take pride of place among exhibits in the Arms and Armaments Gallery at the recently-established State Museum here.i]{Where?}[/i]

Among the weapons is a fancy 20th-century six-barrel revolver from Indore and three 18th-century cannons whose once fire-spewing muzzles are made to resemble tigers' mouths.

<b>''The museum has 16 galleries showcasing prehistoric articles,fossils, excavated objects, sculptures, epigraphs, manuscripts,paintings, a royal collection, textiles, documents, freedom struggle-related articles, stamps, autographs, miniature paintings,coins and weapons,'' Curator Prakashendra Mathur </b>told UNI.

The Marathas used a combination of arms. Although they adopted new types, they did not boycott the older ones. The weapons of Indore's Holkars and Gwalior's Scindias, kept in the gallery, serve as reminders of their history.

The pen-pistol was a unique weapon of rulers and was often a part of their personal collection.

The display includes two cylindrical bombs, one container bomb and 'gurja' (metal ball and chain) from Indore.

Firearms exhibited include a 'jazail' (generally applied to the heavy Afghan rifle with a forked rest), two matchlocks (where the powder was ignited by a match) guns, a flintlock (flint fixed in the hammer produces a spark that ignites the charge) gun, 16 percussion caps (a thin metal cap containing an explosive substance, such as fulminate of mercury, that explodes on being struck) guns and three percussion cap pistols.

Also seen are four bayonets, seven naked Mughal swords, three Rajput swords, five Maratha swords, a Maratha sword alongside its scabbard, four scimitars, three 'gupti' (swordsticks), two spears with bamboo shafts, a shield, 15 daggers, a hand axe, a bow and arrow.

''These weapons are obviously not in vogue in this nuclear-weapons era where the mere push of a button can cause annihilation. So our idea is to familiarise the public with and disseminate knowledge of these weapons of yore,'' Dr Mathur adds.

Yashwantrao Holkar I enlisted the Pindaris in his army. Their main weapon was the Maratha lance that had a length of 12-18 ft.

These spears are classified under three categories -- <b>'Ballam',</b> 'Barchcha' and 'Bhala'. A large number of cannons were cast during the reign of Yashwantrao Holkar I at his capital Bhanpura.

The Arms and Armaments Gallery also boasts action-packed
paintings. The events depicted are the First Battle of Panipat (April 21, 1526) when Zahiruddin Muhammad Babur dealt a deathblow to the Lodi sultanate, Babur's soldiers at the Battle of Chanderi (1528) against the Rajput Medini Rai, two cavalries on the verge of locking in mortal combat, an engagement near Khuban and a hunting scene.

There are also paintings of an 18th-century matchlock gun with precious stones on the stock, a 19th-century decorated wheel lock (a firing mechanism in which a small wheel produces sparks by revolving against a flint) gun and a decorated crossbow and arrows.

The gallery contains pictorial representations of weapons from the Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, medieval and modern times.
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This is from UNI newsite. I dont knwo where the museum is located. Seems interesting for its 16 galleries.