04-05-2006, 07:47 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+Apr 4 2006, 11:22 PM-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Apr 4 2006, 11:22 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Note that despite the late dates claimed for kAlachakra and known late dates for bhojadeva they were often drawing from far more ancient sources. In the case of the latter the citations to pre-Islamic authorities are clear.
The congruence of names between the arthashAstra weapons and the latter are also suggestive of the early origins.
[right][snapback]49396[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The rewriting and insertion of later chapters into old writings is not uncommon, eg. the European Liber Ignium has gunpowder formulas in it's last chapters written ca. 1280 although the work itself spanned well back into the pregunpowder era. It is unfortunate, but some Europeans still claim they invented gunpowder just based on the fact that the Liber Ignium has gunpowder formulas and matching that with the earliest dates of the Liber Ignium writings.
The conguence of names is also sometimes not necessarily a clear indication of direct lineage. eg. the name Hudun Pao (Crouching Tiger Catapult) in China is used by both, a lever-principled traction mechanical catapult as well as a later day gunpowder cannon. If I just traced the name based on the cannon, it would look like cannons existed in China a good 1000 years before they actually arose.
I hope you don't mind my questions.
Does any earlier pre-islamic text exist showing these same or similar catapults? Are there clear references in the kAlachakra that point to an earlier text? Another possible method is to read the sentence structure where these catapults are mentioned, to see if they hint at the weapons being ancient.
What citations does Bhoja quote with reference to the catapults in his writings? A look at these quoted sources would be instructive.
I'm really handicapped in not being able to read the primary sources directly so I hope you'll be patient with me. I don't want to offend anyone here so I hope you won't take this the wrong way. I just need to verify and make clear distinctions between what is known for sure and what is still just speculation before I put in down in print. My apologies if I offend you, not my intention to do so. I hope you understand.
The congruence of names between the arthashAstra weapons and the latter are also suggestive of the early origins.
[right][snapback]49396[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The rewriting and insertion of later chapters into old writings is not uncommon, eg. the European Liber Ignium has gunpowder formulas in it's last chapters written ca. 1280 although the work itself spanned well back into the pregunpowder era. It is unfortunate, but some Europeans still claim they invented gunpowder just based on the fact that the Liber Ignium has gunpowder formulas and matching that with the earliest dates of the Liber Ignium writings.
The conguence of names is also sometimes not necessarily a clear indication of direct lineage. eg. the name Hudun Pao (Crouching Tiger Catapult) in China is used by both, a lever-principled traction mechanical catapult as well as a later day gunpowder cannon. If I just traced the name based on the cannon, it would look like cannons existed in China a good 1000 years before they actually arose.
I hope you don't mind my questions.
Does any earlier pre-islamic text exist showing these same or similar catapults? Are there clear references in the kAlachakra that point to an earlier text? Another possible method is to read the sentence structure where these catapults are mentioned, to see if they hint at the weapons being ancient.
What citations does Bhoja quote with reference to the catapults in his writings? A look at these quoted sources would be instructive.
I'm really handicapped in not being able to read the primary sources directly so I hope you'll be patient with me. I don't want to offend anyone here so I hope you won't take this the wrong way. I just need to verify and make clear distinctions between what is known for sure and what is still just speculation before I put in down in print. My apologies if I offend you, not my intention to do so. I hope you understand.