05-22-2007, 08:39 AM (This post was last modified: 05-22-2007, 08:40 AM by Bharatvarsh.)
Bodhi I cannot say for sure if he drank that much ghee or not but he certainly was very physically fit and kept it up through regular exercise as the following description shows:
"Krishna Raya seems to have possessed a very striking personality, to judge from the glowing description given us by Paes, who saw him about the year 1520. The account given by him is all the more interesting and valuable because without it the world would have remained justly in doubt as to whether this king really reigned at all, in the usual acceptation of the word -- whether he was not a mere puppet, entirely in the hands of his minister, perhaps even an actual prisoner. For Firishtah never mentions him by name, and the inscriptions which relate his conquests prove nothing beyond the fact that they took place during a reign which, for all we know, might have been a reign only in name, the real power being in the hands of the nobles. But with the description of Paes in our hands there can be no longer a shadow of doubt. Krishna Deva was not only monarch DE JURE, but was in very practical fact an absolute sovereign, of extensive power and strong personal influence. He was the real ruler. He was physically strong in his best days, and kept his strength up to the highest pitch by hard bodily exercise. He rose early, and developed all his muscles by the use of Indian clubs and the use of the sword; he was a fine rider, and was blessed with a noble presence which favourably impressed all who came in contact with him. He commanded his immense armies in person, was able, brave, and statesmanlike, and was withal a man of much gentleness and generosity of character. He was beloved by all and respected by all. Paes writes of him that he was "gallant and perfect in all things." http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/en...ry/vijayanagar/ "
<!--QuoteBegin-Pandyan+May 21 2007, 07:38 AM-->QUOTE(Pandyan @ May 21 2007, 07:38 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have the resources to split and upload it onto youtube.
for some reason i keep getting an error when i try to download the file. try using megaupload.
http://www.megaupload.com/
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Thanks Pandyan, that would be great.
I would suggest, try downloading at some other time, since others seem to have been able to download just fine...
Bharatvarsh, thanks. I think Vijayanagara kings like other Bharatiya kings did not try to project their images on their coinage, else we shall know more about their appearances, like we probably do about Kushans etc or Europeans.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+May 22 2007, 08:39 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ May 22 2007, 08:39 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bodhi I cannot say for sure if he drank that much ghee or not but he certainly was very physically fit and kept it up through regular exercise as the following description shows:
"Krishna Raya seems to have possessed a very striking personality, to judge from the glowing description given us by Paes, who saw him about the year 1520. The account given by him is all the more interesting and valuable because without it the world would have remained justly in doubt as to whether this king really reigned at all, in the usual acceptation of the word -- whether he was not a mere puppet, entirely in the hands of his minister, perhaps even an actual prisoner. For Firishtah never mentions him by name, and the inscriptions which relate his conquests prove nothing beyond the fact that they took place during a reign which, for all we know, might have been a reign only in name, the real power being in the hands of the nobles. But with the description of Paes in our hands there can be no longer a shadow of doubt. Krishna Deva was not only monarch DE JURE, but was in very practical fact an absolute sovereign, of extensive power and strong personal influence. He was the real ruler. He was physically strong in his best days, and kept his strength up to the highest pitch by hard bodily exercise. He rose early, and developed all his muscles by the use of Indian clubs and the use of the sword; he was a fine rider, and was blessed with a noble presence which favourably impressed all who came in contact with him. He commanded his immense armies in person, was able, brave, and statesmanlike, and was withal a man of much gentleness and generosity of character. He was beloved by all and respected by all. Paes writes of him that he was "gallant and perfect in all things." http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/en...ry/vijayanagar/ "
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Krishna Deva was indeed a strong ruler very much in control of his affairs. The following extract from Robert Sewell's "A Forgotten Empire (Vijayanagar)" on the Battle of Raichur is an excellent example of Krishna Deva's generalship. The book is available free on Gutenberg
"Krishna Deva Raya, having determine to attack the Adil Shah
and once for all to capture the disputed fortress of Raichur,
collected all his forces, and marched with an immense host from
Vijayanagar in a north-easterly direction. It was the dry season,
and he probably set out in February or March. The weather must have
been intensely hot during his advance, and still more so during
the campaign; but the cotton plains that lay on his route out and
home were then in the best condition for the passage of his troops,
guns, and baggage. His enormous army consisted of about a million of
men, if the camp-followers be included; for the fighting men alone,
according to Nuniz, numbered about 736,000, with 550 elephants. The
troops advanced in eleven great divisions or army corps, and other
troops joined him before Raichur.
He pitched his camp on the eastern side of that citadel, invested
the place, and began a regular siege. After an interval he received
intelligence of the arrival of the Adil Shah from Bijapur, on the
north side of the Krishna, with an army of 140,000 horse and foot to
oppose him.
Having for a few days rested his troops, the Sultan crossed the river,
advanced (according to Nuniz) to within nine miles of Raichur, and
there entrenched himself, leaving the river about five miles in his
rear.[215] Firishtah, however, differs, and says that the Muhammadan
forces crossed directly in face of the Hindu army encamped on the
opposite bank.
On Saturday morning, May 19, in the year A.D. 1520, according to
my deductions, the forces became engaged, and a decisive pitched
battle was fought. Krishna Deva, making no attempt to outflank
his adversary, ordered an advance to his immediate front of his two
forward divisions. Their attack was so far successful that they drove
the Muhammadans back to their trenches. The Sultan had apparently
deployed his force over too wide an area, expecting that the Raya
would do the same; but finding himself weak in the centre he opened
fire from the guns that he had previously held in reserve, and by this
means caused great loss in the close ranks of the Hindus. <b>The Raya's
troops fell back in face of this formidable bombardment, and at once
their enemies charged them. The retreat was changed to a rout, and for
a mile and a half to their direct front the Mussulman cavalry chased
the flying forces belonging to Krishna Deva's first line. The king
himself, who commanded the second line, began to despair of victory,
but rallied his troops, collected about him a number of his nobles, and
determined to face death with the bravery that had always characterised
him. Mounting his horse, he ordered a forward movement of the whole
of his remaining divisions, and charged the now disordered ranks of
the Mussulmans. This resulted in complete success, for the enemy,
scattered and unable to form, fled before his impetuous onslaught. He
drove them the whole way back to, and into, the river, where terrific
slaughter took place, and their entire army was put to flight.</b>
The Raya then crossed the river and seized the Shah's camp, while
the Shah himself, by the counsel and help of Asada Khan, a man who
afterwards became very famous, escaped only with his life, and fled
from the field on an elephant.
While being driven back towards the river, Salabat Khan, the Shah's
general, made a valiant attempt to retrieve the fortunes of the day. He
had for his bodyguard 500 Portuguese "renegades," and with him these
men threw themselves into the advancing ranks of the Hindus, where they
"did such wonderful deeds" that ever after they were remembered. They
penetrated the king's host, and cut their way forwards till they
almost reached his person. Here Salabat Khan lost his horse, but at
once mounted another and pressed on. The little force was, however,
surrounded and annihilated, and the general, being a second time
overthrown, horse and all, was made prisoner.
The spoil was great and the result decisive. For years afterwards the
"Moors" cherished a wholesome dread of Krishna Raya and his valiant
troops, and the Sultan, panic-stricken, never again during his enemy's
lifetime ventured to attack the dominions of Vijayanagar. Krishna
Deva, flushed with victory, returned at once to the attack of Raichur,
and the fortress was after a short time captured.
Its fall was due in great measure to the assistance rendered by
some Portuguese, headed by Christovao de Figueiredo, who with their
arquebusses picked off the defenders from the walls, and thus enabled
the besiegers to approach close to the lines of fortification and
pull down the stones of which they were formed. Driven to desperation,
and their governor being slain, the garrison surrendered."
This has been derived from Fernao Nuniz's account of the battle. Though Firishta has also written on the battle more from Adil Shah's point of view, Sewell considers Nuniz's account to be more accurate. This because Nuniz had written this just some 15 years after the event, while Firishta wrote his Tarikh only 60 years after the Battle of Raichur. It is also very well possible that Nuniz had a first hand account of this story as there were many Portuguese present at the battle including the redoubtable Cristovao de Figuiredo, who was very useful to Krishna Deva during this campaign due to his sniping skills. Sewell even feels that Nuniz may have been actually present at the battle due to the graphic descriptions of the battle. I think this is a must read for any history, especially military enthusiast for there are very few medieval Indian battles that are so well documented and with so graphic a narrative. It also proves beyond a shadow of doubt the generalship of Krishna Deva besides his courage for there are few men, nay few generals who can turn a rout into a victory. I think this more than anything else this account defines the strong control he had on his army and government.
Zia-ud-din Barani's "Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi" makes mention of manjaniq, maghribi and 'arrada's being employed by not only Muslim invaders but also by Hindu defendants of forts in case of the engagements with Hammir deva and also with Kakatiya Pratapa Rudra of Warangal. Manjaniq and maghribi are kinds of trebuchet, while arrada is some kind of ballista. It also mentions that the Hindus "threw fire", which may mean that they threw inflamed projectiles using a ballista. What I would like to know is what are these weapons called in our vocabulary, what was it called by the Kakatiyas and the Rajputs and is there any mention of these weapons in our inscriptions or our literary sources, what are these instances. Can somebody throw light on these.
All these are terms of Islamic provenance with chiefly Persian and Arabic roots. They were used in a different sense during the Islamic period to denote appointments in the army of Islam in India. All except the last term are typical of infantry while the last is cavalry.
Naik
Is from a saMskrit term nAyaka or leader of army -- the only Hindu term in the list.
Lance Daffadar
Lance Naik
Are composite British inventions
In the late medieval period the Hindu rulers of Rajasthan, Nepal and Maharashtra started adopting many Islamic military and administrative terms. Shivaji partially tried to reverse this by appointments following the old sanskrit pattern.
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Aug 12 2007, 10:18 PM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Aug 12 2007, 10:18 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Zia-ud-din Barani's "Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi" makes mention of manjaniq, maghribi and 'arrada's being employed by not only Muslim invaders but also by Hindu defendants of forts in case of the engagements with Hammir deva and also with Kakatiya Pratapa Rudra of Warangal. Manjaniq and maghribi are kinds of trebuchet, while arrada is some kind of ballista. It also mentions that the Hindus "threw fire", which may mean that they threw inflamed projectiles using a ballista. What I would like to know is what are these weapons called in our vocabulary, what was it called by the Kakatiyas and the Rajputs and is there any mention of these weapons in our inscriptions or our literary sources, what are these instances. Can somebody throw light on these.
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Pls can somebody enlighten on the above. Reposting this just in case if it's been overlooked. Thanks
BTW, Where did you get Ziaquddin Barani's book on Feroz Tughlaq? I am trying to read it as he seems to understand the dynamics of Islamic imperial rule in India.
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Aug 14 2007, 11:26 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Aug 14 2007, 11:26 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW, Where did you get Ziaquddin Barani's book on Feroz Tughlaq? I am trying to read it as he seems to understand the dynamics of Islamic imperial rule in India.
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http://persian.packhum.org/persian/
You can find almost all Persian works translated out here like Amir Khusrau's, Barani's etc. One author not here of this particular period is Isami, who has written Futuh-us-Salatin. In case you find this work pls do pass on the link. Rgds
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Aug 15 2007, 12:15 AM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Aug 15 2007, 12:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Aug 14 2007, 11:26 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ramana @ Aug 14 2007, 11:26 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW, Where did you get Ziaquddin Barani's book on Feroz Tughlaq? I am trying to read it as he seems to understand the dynamics of Islamic imperial rule in India.
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http://persian.packhum.org/persian/
You can find almost all Persian works translated out here like Amir Khusrau's, Barani's etc. One author not here of this particular period is Isami, who has written Futuh-us-Salatin. In case you find this work pls do pass on the link. Rgds
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Also is there any similar link where we can get translations of Sanskrit works
X-posted from BR
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This image covers the panel more and the depiction looks like a war scene. Watch the artillery pieces in the middle of the photo. It is unlikely to be a drinking container. Definitely, not an apsara...
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Sep 25 2007, 10:11 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Sep 25 2007, 10:11 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->X-posted from BR
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This image covers the panel more and the depiction looks like a war scene. Watch the artillery pieces in the middle of the photo. It is unlikely to be a drinking container. Definitely, not an apsara...
I think this is an illustration of a siege engine.
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Isnt there a bigger resolution
siege engine - I'm most interested
Arabs and Turks called it manjaniqs. I would like to know what Hindus of this time (12th-15th c)called it.
From what little I can make out of this picture. There is the frame, the platform like thing at the bottom. The counterweight and the swivel arm can also be somewhat distinguished
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Sep 28 2007, 09:01 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Sep 28 2007, 09:01 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Kartiksri, Click on it and it will download to anew page. Click on it again and it should give you a higher resolution picture.
Yes I too think its seige engine.
I suggest you trace the picture onto some drafting program and complete the layer.
BTW, In BRf, Jwalamukhi had posted this picture. I will cross ref him to this thread.
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Ramana, I think we were being too much optimistic. On closer scrutiny it becomes clear that it is not a siege engine, but a chariot. You can make out the small figure of a charioteer to the lower right hand side.
The wheels and platform belong to the chariot
The main part, which I thought was the mechanism of the siege engine is actually the torso of the warrior bestride the chariot. You can make out a sword hanging from his cummerbund. Also on the upper right hand side you can make out that he is holding a bow with his left hand. His right hand and face are damaged and not existent, but overall you can make out the chest, the legs, the left leg bent forward, the right leg behind.
On the upper right hand side (what I originally thought was the counterweight) probably seems to be a hail of arrows either shot by the warrior on the chariot or probably being targetted on him.
Better luck for us next time, but it was a very interesting exercise. Also there is some Kannada inscription at the bottom, see if you can make it out
Here are some interesting tidbits provided by local guides during a recent visit to the Halebeedu temple complex.
Does any of the gurus here know more about these on the veracity of the narration of the local guides?
The Hoysala halebeedu and Belur temple complex were built in 12th century and barbarians led by MaliKafur ransacked it in 14th century. http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image...486pe9.jpg
Please note what looks like a viewing device in the image at Halebeedu.
Local Guideâs narration: The optical device was in vogue and used in warfare at 12th century itself. (Telescopes come much later)
This is a 12th century temple. Hope the photograph shows with larger resolution.
Interesting bits:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What makes Kalari unique is the fact that it is much more than a martial art. A student of Kalari learns philosophy, medicine, attack and self-defence and, above all, learns how to avoid confrontations where he has to attack somebody or defend himself. He even learns to treat the injuries he causes to his opponent while attacking or defending himself. An advanced student would learn about Marma points or pressure points in the body. A skilful blow at the right place could cripple or kill a person. These points are also used to cure various illnesses. The Chinese art of acupressure is also based on these pressure points. <b>Kalari also includes Tantra and Mantra through which a look could make a person drop dead.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->(Now that last bit would be useful on some politicians.... <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->When the British ruled India, they were unable to understand the nuances of this art and, moreover were scared by the lethal skill of its practitioners and banned it in India. The tradition would have died if not for the brave efforts of Kalari teachers to keep it alive. Thus from being a honourable art practised by kings, Kalari turned into a secretive art struggling for survival. Indeed the ban by the British did untold damage and today a lot of the information is lost. But what has survived is still potent and requires at least 12 years of dedicated study to master it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, CHindu psyops is unavoidable. For instance, it totally avoids mentioning Nairs while these Kshatriyas were regular practitioners in the 15th-17th century. Next to that it turns Kerala into some kind of endless feuding territory at the time (waiting for salvation by the christoterrorists from Portugal apparently):
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Fifteenth Century Kerala did not have a strong central rule, which gave rise to many small rulers constantly at war with each other. To avoid unnecessary bloodshed, they began a system where one Kalari warrior from each side would represent his king and fight the other. The winner would have won the war for his king. This gives an indication of how respectable and venerated practitioners of Kalari were between the 13th and 16th Centuries.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes, I appreciate the realism in the historic usage of the conflict-minimising one-to-one Kalari duel, but to say that therefore Kerala had been witness to "constant warfare" seems a bit more than a stretch <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Next to that there are dating incoherencies even in one and the same paragraph:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Kalaripayatt is a traditional art practised in Kerala and though claims of a heavenly origin are disputable, foreign travellers have mentioned Kalari being practised in Kerala as early as the 13th Century, which makes it the oldest martial art to be in existence. Kalari is considered to be the most complete and scientific martial art and is the mother of all martial arts. Bodhidharma, a Buddhist monk from India, introduced Kalari into China and Japan. What he taught has evolved into Karate and Kung Fu. One can find a lot of similarities among the three.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->After stating the Bodhidharma bit as factual history (which it is, but nice to see the CHindu admit that much), it's funny that they still stick to 13th century as the oldest noted ball park figure for a martial art. Now we're to suppose that Bodhidharma - who is credited with developing Shaolin Gong Fu - is 13th century or later? Meanwhile Bodhidharma is dated 5th/6th century (see for instance this Japanese Buddhist Site: http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/daruma.shtml ) So more fool CHindu.
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )