I agree with Sudhir on his remarks about creating a library (no discussion)where one can post longer articles. we might want to check out the concept in yahoogroups where they have 2 means of archiving, one is by bookmarking (which we can do now) and the other is by creating archival 'files' with the full length articles (which as far as i can tell we cannot do now)
As far as the reasons for the initiation and development of this forum, Vijay has hit it right on the button. Some of the admins in BR have no interest in expanding beyond military/weapons systems. They particularly abhor topics such as history, economics (even though they tolerate a forum on economics now), politics, cricket, music etc. This is OK and their prerogative, but this forum is an outlet for expressing a variety of topics and views and i trust none will be censored. When asked why not reinstate some topics , the response from the BRadmin has been generally 'if you dont like it leave or it is our way or the highway'. One admin even poked fun at the strategic issues forum at BR and was very emphatic that if he had his druthers that would go. Now I have a great interest in strategic issues and if that was banned from BR i would have very little interest left in the forum. Eventually i got tired of such an attitude and i took their advice.
Furthermore there is a high degree of censorship in BR . Politically incorrect views (mostly viewed from a secularist perspective) have been systematically weeded out, the latest example being Hauma Hamiddha. Such censorship in my view is totally unacceptable and is against the fundamental civilizational ethos of India. Diversity in India does not just mean ethnic or religious diversity but the unfettered access to express a diversity of views (even though one may not agree with them) as long as we do not indulge in vicious attacks against a ethnic group or religion or make personal attacks against other members of the forum. One of the signs of a mature civilization and a mature people is the ability to conduct a civil and reasoned discourse on any subject regardless of how passionately one may disagree with the opposing views. By implicitly assuming that members are incapable of having such a discourse, BR admins have been rather contemptuous of the majority of the members and have chosen to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
As for overlap of topics that is unavoidable and i would be disappointed if the moderators in this forum banned certain topics simply because they are covered in BR. Even so, I have refrained from posting threads on Pakistan , because that is exhaustively covered in BR. Clearly also weapons systems is an area in which the BR forum has a lot of knowledge and an extensive database and it would be best to participate in the BR forum given that they have a passion to talk about this area. But i repeat my assertion (and Vijay's) that any topic other than weapons systems and aircraft is barely tolerated by some of the admins in BR.
Sorry for referring to another forum, but this is a response to a specific request from fanne.
Thanks for the input. I did not know that BR Admin had little tolerance of strategic matters. I mean what is defense without strategic perspective - Just sword wilding which we have done for the last 1000 years (you will not find a single war in which Indian soldiers ran away for fear of life or defeat), but because of lack of strategic insight or tactical brilliance we have lost many wars. It's hard for me that some BR admin would even think about that...
Anyway I am not telling that you guys are not telling the truth...but I still believe as far as strategy goes, we have it going good at BR (except for challenges from religious extremism that is discouraged at BR and IMHO is a major flaw, it might be, NO, it is the biggest threat that we face, everything is just a manifestation of that). But outside the purview of religious extremism (not of P-Sec kind) there are lots of thing that go in strategy and BR has some very good people that I donât find it here. So there is a GAP. BR discusses strategy but hushes up challenge from Religious extremism and here currently we donât have enough people to discuss it in a holistic way. (I hope wherever it happens we have a good model to discuss)
Lastly, I fully agree, BR has shown little tolerance (though some has been shown) of IMHO some genuine Indian views untainted by P-Sec doublespeak. We here should of course allow that but bear in mind that it does not become a place where chauvinism rules.
I guess the whole idea of this forum is to, not follow the rules that we deem unfair but still we must for sake of quality discussion have rules that preaches equality without being apologetic towards hard truth.
09-27-2003, 12:42 AM (This post was last modified: 09-27-2003, 12:43 AM by rhytha.)
Quote:BR has some very good people that I donât find it here. So there is a GAP.
the forums was launched only last month (on aug15), so the forum is baiscially in its nascent stage regarding the objective, goal et al. Graduate
regarding the gap, we have already 80 brites(you can see the regsiterd members, by clicking on the members at the top right corner or [url="http://india-forum.com/forums/index.php?act=Members"]Here[/url]) . most guys are lurking and have not started posting, not sure why <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />
fanne, one final point .this forum is not soliciting new members (till now) either at BR or elsewhere. (But that may change)It is entirely their choice and if many do not wish to join this forum. we have nothing against such individuals. More power to them and may God bless them. THis forum is roughly a month old and i believe it has currently about 70 active members. This is a drop in the bucket compared to BR which has literally thousands of members. The point is we are not in competition with them and most participants in India Forum also participate in BR. The reasons why i have put a moratorium on my participation may not be important to others. I respect the individuality of each person and to each his own. I certainly do not wish any harm to BR after all i have put in a good bit of myself during the last 5 years and one can never get angry with an old friend.
Once again this forum will encourage a wide variety of views the only proviso being they should remain courteous at all times and not indulge in language which is uncouth or boorish.
Quote:I did not know that BR Admin had little tolerance of strategic matters.
fanne I am reproducing an exact quote from a BR admin , because you sound a trifle skeptical. Note also the classification of a large population of BR members into nuclear elitists, war gamers, and jingos. If jingo means wanting a militarily strong India well i for one am proud to be called a jingo, even a maha jingo.
If not, as an alternative I would strongly suggest that you completely remove this Strat forum and stick purely to the boring military and technology/economy aspects. This would at least make some people like me to stop visiting the site frequently, and may be free people up to re-organize elsewhere to discuss the above issues.
Quote:Admins, as much as I absolutely despise Hauma Hamiddha, can this( to completely get rid of the strategic forum) be done? At least in this way, we will not have to deal with fundoo nationalists like him, the nuclear elitists, the wargamers and the jingos. Thank You. Hauma dear, please go elsewhere and discuss your issues. Leave us to talk about guns and bombs.
JAI SECULAR INDIA!!! JAI INDIAN ARMY!!!
Rakesh Koshy
________
I refuse to waste forum bandwith over that[HH] idiot.
Remember, this last statement was made after the admin interjected himself into a discussion which was going on for several pages of the thread the specific purpose of which was to elicit opinions on the future of the strat forum. The complete post is an excellent example of a flame bait if i ever saw one, clearly designed to draw an outraged response.
Discussing military capability/strategy is meaningless without having a similar discussion on strategy and economic capability. If it's done that way it would be similar to the Army, Navy and AF fighting their own battles and not a collective war, which is the need of the day.
BR is a great place for nationalist Indians, but their are many rules to follow. No political incorrectness allowed no matter how true it is. Even though I have disagreement with that I understand Mods' dilemma on the subject. Looking at a broader picture I think BR should stay the way it is, including the Strategy discussions besides military.
OTOH, this site can fill in where BR lacks, instead of becoming a competitor for BR (which I would hate to no end). This site should be used to discuss things openly without any disguise of political correctness.
I'm disappointed at your not mentioning my Movie thread gaining ground <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> ? <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />
We got Zameen released today and quiet a few good ones in Post-production stage all lined up to blow you away! <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />
Cricket's goodâ¦â¦but these Bolly movies work at grass-root levelsâ¦â¦.we must milk it as much as we can. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />
Jai Bollywood! <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />
Krishna, you picked the wrong person. The last movie from Bolly that I watched was something called Samrat Ashok or something like that. I was quite underwhelmed!
After that I had seen an Angrezi thingy, called Globocop II or something like that and I was even less impressed. Before those I saw a movie stared the Lord of Telegudesam NTR <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> but I think the movie itself was a tamil historical. That has been my recent cinema career.
Kaushal, thanks for preserving those excerpts. I need it for some propo. My opinion on BR remains the same. It will serve its purpose vis-a-vis Pakistan and related matter. I was far more impressed early on when I joined it (cusine thread, history etc) and it started slipping downhill due to the admins. There are many be good postors, patriotic and otherwise. But if a forum is controlled by certain admins who have no/false concepts of India then all patriotism is wasted. Anyhow with so many things being banned there I think this is a good place for other matters of Indian interest.
Sulekha- Not bad but one needs to ignore the numerous distractors posting irrelevancies.
Kaushal used to run Indian Civilization. Began quite well, but had many bad postors due to lack of regulation and deteriorated.
So one needs to match regulation and freedom. The best means for this is local self government on forum.
HH, I have the entire exchange, 3 or 4 post long starting from your post down to Nikhil's admonition to the BR admin.If you wish i can send it by email, if you need it. However i seem to have lost your email in one of my crashes. do you have mine. i gave my email in one of the other threads in response to a query by spinster.
Being mostly a lurker, my own interaction with BR was minimal, and despite the fact that one of the admins is a dear old friend, I too feel that BR has become an extension of the Indian media that it so despises. Everyone is walking on eggshells with extreme concern for the sensibilities of some, but with disdain at times for sense itself.
Hence, India Forum. Joined the day They through out HH. Love the freedom, the variety of threads, the emoticons, the casual approach etc.
I feel the forum should be allowed to develop as it will. Freedom is and should be the watchword. Having said that, we all have our own "Lakshman Rekha" and mine would be language and personal attacks against members.
I love the movies thread already. Dire need for something like that. In a way, Krishna is correct, movies and such can also serve as psy-ops in a big way. My teenage daughter is going to see "Bollywood Hollywood" at her English teacher's home this weekend, along with some other Indians and American students from her school. Agreed, the movie may not be all that great, but imagine what a well made anti-TSP movie could achieve. Americans never get to see or hear the Indian side of the story. Unfortunately most of the 'Indian' spokespersons in the media here are the DDM types.
Pradeep you echo my sentiments exactly in regard to both forums. Your Lakshman rekha coincides with mine. I always tell my internet correspondents to imagine they are talking to a guest face to face in their living room (with their Mother present) before they think of saying something they would later regret (or perhaps not regret).
One suggestion. Is it possible to number the posts on all threads ?? That way one can refer to a post easily. Currently one has to use a timestamp to refer to it ??
[B]Some administrator deleted my membership from BR-Forum.
I am an indian and some didn't liked my views and it seems it were colliding with asome ADministrator's personal views .I have lost my ID now.
I don't expect such behaviour from BR-ites.
If any BR-ites is reading then its a request to all that plz don't do such ghasty acts with members.If your thinking don't matches doesn't mean kick indian's ass*es.
:thumbdown
I boycott BR-Forum.BR-ites are driving their own thinking and agenda.
Anyway, i support this forum. I have freedom here to say my views.
09-29-2003, 11:16 PM (This post was last modified: 09-29-2003, 11:17 PM by rhytha.)
hey guys, can u cut it down a bit, you are free to express your opinions with more freedom here in a much more diverse fields , kindly avoid anti-BR views here. Graduate
[quote name='rhytha' date='Sep 29 2003, 12:46 PM'] Guys Mudy and I just kicked out a tupid .
Score 1. [/quote]
Did he/she post something, somewhere. If yes please point us towards that thread! <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />
BTW #1. Don't ban all the pakis here. We need to have fun too! :clapping
BTW #2. I second rytha on the need to cut down the -ve BR comments here.
All I would say is: No matter what, no mater how much BR differs from someone's POV, here, we must apreciate that we are all working for the same cause. So please no intra-group rivalries, please!
Thanks for taking the time to ally my fear. I still don't believe that Rakman would do this!!!
I had suspected some other Admin of this (and no price of guessing who). Nevertheless, a new forum which explores further then where BR can evr go is a welcome thing.
I agree that defense is a wholistic view and however much we might not like it it consists of Arms, economy, religion, history, social studies evrything. One has to attract experts in all these fields to build a model to predict security. Well let's hope that we attract enough people.
I would also like to add my 2 cents about red lines -
1. No disrespect towards fellow member - disagree without being disagreable
2. No bad mouthing of any country, religion, e.g. I don't like BanglaDesh being called beggedesh or anything like that. The only exception IMHO should be TSP.
Quote:Sudhir:BR has some very good people that I don't find it here.
So there is a GAP.
It's upto members to extend invitation to others and/or their friends and try reduce this GAP. And please don't restrict invitation to members of one forum.
Quote:Sudhir:Ideas should be solicited, projects identified (raising
fund for Yetteji or Francois G or helping other Indians in creating sites or
contents), call for volunteers etc
Again, forum members can take initatives and instruct others on ways and means of spreading word to gather support for such causes. What's the use of gathering all this knowledge if we can't use it to influence/educate/enlighten others or help some causes like the ones listed by Sudhir.
Starting a thread with some background material and what's expected of others would be a good start. Low on ideas at the moment, but I'm sure as we pick up momemtum; ideas, better techniques, we'll get better at being more effective as a action group.
Quote:Rhytha:hey guys, can u cut it down a bit, you are free to express your opinions with more freedom here in a much more diverse fields , kindly avoid anti-BR views here
Please remember freedom comes with responsibilities. Anti-whatever site views should be taken offline.
Each thread creator owns the thread. I'd request all thread creators to write a two to three line header in the first post to set the tone and direction of
the thread so that we can have a focused discussion on the topic.
Quote:HH:Of course the way the forum is we will never attract people
who are into PC
That is fine HH. This is a 'NO SPIN ZONE'. As fanne stated: we need genuine Indian views untainted by P-Sec doublespeak.
Quote:O Vijay:Create an "Archive" read only section to preserve and
give prominence to superb threads.
Barring space restrictions, all great discussion topics can be
archieved on L & B forum. How about members create a personal thread in a
appropriate forum with a first post stating that the particular thread is for
'archival' purpose. Just before the thread lock & move to L & B forum, thread owner can cleanup the chit-chat and stuff not required for long term archival. Note the thread creator has to warn in his first post of that thread that the misc chit-chit will be cleaned before the thread is archived.
There are some independent efforts by others here (you know who you are) to whom we can provide content to store and categorize. Nothing important for now, but we can address as we go along.
Quote:O Vijay: Give some thought to publishing content in a Monthly or weekly e-magazine format.
Great idea Vijay. Will require some time and effort but definitely do-able if there is enough interest and commitment from everyone. Delivery of the monthly as PDF in email or posting on web is the easy part.
I guess you just volunteered O Vijay <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />
Quote:Kaushal:other is by creating archival 'files' with the full length articles (which as far as i can tell we cannot do now)
I think we can look what's involved in uploading files by FTP or mail them to admin and then admin posts them? Again space/bandwidth considerations needs to be addressed.
Quote:Kaushal:As for overlap of topics that is unavoidable and i would be disappointed if the moderators in this forum banned certain topics simply because they are covered in BR.
Rest assured Kaushal, we'll march to our own band.
Quote:Kaushal: weapons systems is an area in which the BR forum has a lot of knowledge and an extensive database and it would be best to participate in the BR forum given that they have a passion to talk about this area
Why not here? The topic may not have the level of depth and/or passion
or expertize as we see elsewhere but that's a call the thread creator will
have to make.
There was a thread by someone regarding 'Ancient Indian Warfare techniques' or something along the line which a premier 'military' forum refused to discuss! I for one would love such a discussion on this topic if we have postors who have interest/expertise in this area.
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