Dera Sucha Sauda -Sikh conflict in India

[Guest]

<b>DERA SUPPORTER ATTEMPT TO BURN VILLAGE GURUDWARA </b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Nathpura May 19:
Tension gripped village Nathpura, about near 30 KM from Bathinda after the supporters of Dera Sacha Sauda allegedly tried to set the village Gurudwara on fire and pelted stones last night at the granthi's house inside the complex.

However, the fire was doused without causing much damage as the granthi Gurmel Singh immediately sent an SOS through Gurudwara public announcement system and a large number of villagers, many equipped with arms, rushed in and extinguished the flames outside the shrine.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The godman, and his sect courted controversy by openly coming out in support of the Congress in the February assembly elections in Punjab. <span style='color:red'>His son-in-law, Harminder Singh Jassi, contested on a Congress ticket from the Bathinda assembly seat and won.</span><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>MANN BOOKED UNDER SEDITION CHARGES </b> 
Jalandhar May 19:
Shiromani Akali Dal (Amritsar) President Simranjeet Singh Mann along with 19 others have been remanded to judicial custody till June 1 under sedition charges.
The district administration earlier booked Mann, Wasan Singh Jaffarwal and 18 others under sections 107 and 151 of the CrPC on May 14 for putting playcards, with photos of Dilawar Singh, on the statue of former chief minister Beant Singh.
As a preventive measure, with a fear that Mann, Jaffarwal and their supporters could vitiate the surcharged atmosphere, a case was registered against them under section 124-A of IPC yesterday.
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[Guest]

http://in.news.yahoo.com/070520/211/6g0mr.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Punjab files case against Dera chief</b>
Enlarge PhotoBy IBNlive.com
Sunday May 20, 01:12 PM
New Delhi: The Punjab Police on Sunday filed a case against Baba Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh, chief of the Dera Sacha Sauda sect, for allegedly hurting the religious sentiments of Sikhs.

Gurmeet, who lives in his headquarters in Sirsa, Haryana, has been charged under Section 295-A of the Indian Penal Code which relates to deliberate malicious act intended to outrage the religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or its religious belief, said a police spokesperson.

The Sikh clergy has asked the Punjab government to take action against Gurmeet and the sect for publishing an ad on May 13 which showed him dressed as Sikh Guru Gobind Singh.

The Dera on Saturday evening “regretted” the ad and the violence it had caused but stopped short of an apology, which is what top Sikh clergy have demanded from the sect.

The head priests of five Sikh Takhts are currently meeting in Amritsar to decide if the Dera’s expression of regret is enough to call off their ultimatum to the government. They want Dera supporters ostracised and a police case against Gurmeet.

The case has been registered at Kotwali police station in Bhatinda on a complaint filed by Rajinder Singh Sidhu, president of Khalsa Dewan and Guru Singh Sabha.

Inspector General of Police (Patiala) N K Tiwari, who also holds additional charge of Bhatinda zone, would probe the complaint.

Avtar Singh Makkar, president of the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, told CNN-IBN that Gurmeet must apologise. “Regret is expressed when one does something unintentionally but for this act Gurmeet Ram Raheem Singh has to apologise,” said Makkar.

One person died and over 100 were injured in clashes between Dera supporters and Sikhs following the ad.

(With PTI)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Dera followers join Sikh religion </b>
Pioneer News Service | Chandigarh
Some of the followers of Dera Sacha Sauda in Amloh sub division of district Fatehgarh Sahib on Sunday decided to snap their ties with the Dera and join the Sikh faith during a religious function held at Gurdwara Singh Sabha Amloh.

As per reports,<b> Rakesh Kumar Shahi , Varinder Singh Shahi, who are sons of former head of Dera unit of block Amloh Ashok Kumar Shahi</b>. During the function, Jagjit Singh and his mother Lachmi Devi, residents of village Bhutto also announced to broke ties with the Dera and announced to join Sikh faith.
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[Guest]

डेरा विवाद में हिंदू संगठन भी कूदे
[Saturday, May 19, 2007 04:26:51 pm ]

चंडीगढ़ (भाषा) : डेरा सच्चा सौदा-सिख विवाद में हिंदू संगठन भी कूद पड़े हैं। विश्व हिंदू परिषद और अखिल भारतीय संत समिति समेत कुछ संगठनों ने मांग की कि डेरा प्रमुख बाबा गुरमीत सिंह राम रहीम को गुरु गोविंद सिंह की वेश भूषा धारण करने पर माफी मांग लेनी चाहिए।

संत समिति के महासचिव स्वामी हंस दास ने बताया कि इस मसले पर हरिद्वार में विभिन्न हिंदू संगठनों की साझी बैठक हुई है और इसमें सहमति बनी है कि बाबा गुरमीत सिंह ने सिखों के दसवें गुरु गोविंद सिंह की वेशभूषा धारण करके इस धर्म के अनुयायियों के साथ-साथ अन्य समुदायों की भावनाओं को भी आहत किया है।

हंस दास ने कहा कि डेरा प्रमुख को इसके लिए माफी मांगनी चाहिए, साथ ही उन्हें यह सुनिश्चित भी करना चाहिए कि वह आइंदा ऐसी गलती नहीं करेंगे। उन्होंने हिंदू संगठनों के हवाले से सिखों हिंदुओं और डेरा समर्थकों से अपील की कि वह ऐसा कोई कदम न उठाएं जिससे पंजाब की शांतिपूर्ण फिजां प्रभावित हो।

विभिन्न संगठनों की मांग को उद्घृत करते हुए जब हंस दास से पूछा गया कि क्या बाबा गुरमीत को गिरफ्तार कर लेना चाहिए तो उनकी प्रतिक्रिया कुछ यूं सामने आयी - कानून को अपना काम करने देना चाहिए। उन्होंने कहा कि हिंदू संगठनों की ऐसी कतई मंशा नहीं है कि हिंदू और सिख डेरा के कृत्यों से भड़क कर संयम खो दें।

हंसदास ने डेरा प्रमुख पर आईएसआई से संबंध होने का आरोप तो लगाया लेकिन वह इसके समर्थन में खास तर्क पेश नहीं कर सके। उन्होंने इस पर केवल इतना कहा कि जब-जब पड़ोसी देश में आंतरिक गड़बड़ी होती है तब-तब उसने पंजाब की फिजां बिगाड़ने की जुर्रत की है।

हंसदास के निशाने पर शनिवार को प्रधानमंत्री मनमोहन सिंह भी रहे। उन्होंने कहा कि प्रधानमंत्री ने पंजाब के शिरोमणि अकाली दल-भाजपा गठबंधन सरकार को तो अमन बहाली के लिए फरमान थमा दिए लेकिन इस सिलसिले में हरियाणा की कांग्रेस नीत सरकार से कुछ नहीं कहा।

उन्होंने आरोपों की बौछार करते हुए कहा कि डेरा सच्चा सौदा और उसके मुखिया से जुड़े हत्या और भूमि हड़पने के मामलों की जांच भी नहीं कराई गई, जिन्होंने इंडियन नैशनल लोकदल (आईएनएलडी) सरकार के कार्यकाल में परवान चढ़ना शुरू किया था। हंसदास ने कहा कि भूपिंदर सिंह हुड्डा की अगुवाई वाली हरियाणा सरकार ने न केवल डेरा प्रमुख को संरक्षण दिया बल्कि कांग्रेस ने हाल में निपटे पंजाब विधानसभा चुनावों में भी डेरा से मिले समर्थन को खूब भुनाया।
संबंधित खबरें :

डेरा प्रमुख के खिलाफ मामला दर्ज
सभी डेरे बंद हों : अकाल तख्त
डेरा ने घटनाक्रम पर अफसोस जताया
डेरा सच्चा सौदा: उजाला भी, अंधेरा भी
पहले भी विवादों में घिरा है डेरा सच्चा सौदा

Minimal translation:
Many Hindu organisations have joined Sikhs in their protest.
From another news:
Even 1 Muslim leader has joined Sikhs in their protest.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+May 18 2007, 10:58 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ May 18 2007, 10:58 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Politics aside, this event has to be viewed as part of the long process if islamization of the Sikhs.
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Thanks for saying it like it is.

[ramana]

<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+May 21 2007, 04:18 AM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ May 21 2007, 04:18 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-dhu+May 18 2007, 10:58 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dhu @ May 18 2007, 10:58 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Politics aside, this event has to be viewed as part of the long process if islamization of the Sikhs.
[right][snapback]69022[/snapback][/right]
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Thanks for saying it like it is.
[right][snapback]69101[/snapback][/right]
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Can both of you elaborate on your posts?
I have this feeling that something big is happening in the Sikh community and religion since 1947 which the rest of India is unaware and could be quite explosive. There are too many breakway factions, movements etc. True one can blame INC, West and TSP for some of the currents but still these are trying to channel the already flowing streams. My queston is why is there a divergent stream after the trauma to the Sikh religion during the Mughal and post Mughal rule?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->My queston is why is there a divergent stream <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Money, control of fund, quick rich dream. Gurdwars are controlled by rich Zamidars. Even different sects are popped up some rich guy in block who is not happy with respect he is getting from other group.

My observation -
Sikh population is in decline. Even reflected in last census report.
Couples of factors are responsible –
a) Abortion or female foeticide is very high; especially in rural Punjab. Sex ratio difference is very high, highest in India, may be in world.
b) Rural population used to be Sikhs after mass conversion earlier; now rural population is moving into city and started shedding Sikh symbols.
c) After Khalistan movement, mixed marriages have stopped and also warrior race image shattered in 80s and 90s.
d) Addiction to drugs and alcohol is growing very fast, especially in rural area. In some area every house is affected.
e) No more conversion
f) Immigration to west or copying western values.


i will add more later

[Guest]

Why has the conversion stream dried down? Only Hindus would have converted to Sikhism and as per my understanding, the first-born in many Hindu families would be given to Sikhism in the old days. Then Khalistan issue happened. Prior to this, Hindus considered Sikhs as a part of Hinduism and vice versa. So there was no downside for Hindus to convert to Sikhism as it wasn't considered conversion. Then Sikhs started claiming that they were not Hindus and were, in fact, a distinct 'religion'. Now a conversion to Sikhism 'felt' like conversion and a one way street much like Islam. Thankfully the Khalistan bs was put down and finished off. But now the Hindus are 'once bitten twice shy'. Unless Sikhism declares itself to be a stream of Hinduism the conversion stream will not start again. Not that the current Sikh leadership cares about it as far as I can see.
All the above is JMHO.

[Guest]

Few days ago Zee News had a segment on this: Sikh clergy ‘bans’ inter-faith marriages
I didn't get it then. Reading smome posts above, it's falling into place.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Feeling helpless in stemming the growing trend among the Sikh youth to marry into non-Sikh families, the Sikh clergy and community leaders here have put a virtual ban on inter-faith marriages.

Deliberating on the issue in a meeting of representatives of around 35 local gurdwara committees and other Sikh organisations at Gurmat Kender, Race Course Road, yesterday, a resolution was passed banning such alliances being solemnised at local gurdwaras. “We took the decision as such marriages were taking place in violation of the Sikh maryada,” said Balwinder Singh, president, Gurmat Satsang Sabha.

To make the decision more deterrent, the Sikh families failing to pay heed to this collective concern of the community would be liable for social boycott. Balwinder Singh, however, maintained that the decision should not be misread as communal. The resolution also warned against observing Hindu marriage rite of “jaimala” before “anand karaj.”

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[Guest]

The problem is not the dress but the way he is portraying himself as Guru and "Baptising" his Disciples. Guru is teacher Disciple is a Sikh.

He often wore dress like Guru Nanak dev and then he wore dress like Guru Gobind Singh while "baptising" people to his "religion".

Guru Gobind Singh himself never baptized anybody! neither did Guru Nanak!!! Guru Gobind Singh told people on Vaisakhi day in 1699 that you have to elect (through peaceful elections) five persons (like panchayat) who will then administer then Pahul to . But here this guy is mocking the Amrit ceremony.

This gives an oppurtunity to the hardlines like Akhand Kirtani Jatha and Damdami Taksal to go off board.

Jathedar Nandgarh of Damdama sahib is only repeating what happened 240+ years ago! when muslims were mocking Sikhi and Baba Deep Singh (jathedar of Damdama Sahib) ordered to get the head of Massa Ranghar (Chief police of Amritsar).

[Guest]

It was a tradition amongst Hindu Punjabi Brahmins to make their first born a Sikh. Also, marriages amongst Sikhs and Hindus were common in the past. Polarization started occurring more rapidly post-Bhindrawalla and now since Sikhs have started openly declaring ‘Sikhism’ as a separate religion, I think, sadly the chasm between Hindus and Sikhs will only grow in the future.

I, like millions, of other Hindus grew up with the belief that Sikhism is a part of Hinduism. But years back when I shifted to UK, I was stunned to find the hatred some Sikhs(mostly from East Africa) in UK harbor against Hindus.

I was talking to a Sikh some years back in UK. I said first 9 Gurus were Hindu Khatris & even Guru Gobind wanted to distinguish warrior Hindus from other Hindus thus asked them (5 pyaras) to keep 5 symbols so pray when did Guru Gobind start a new religion? And now are you(Sikhs) even going to disown your first 9 Gurus, as they were Hindu Khatris? Today when you say you were never Hindus, are you claiming your ancestors were Muslims? This East African Brit Asian Sikh really got annoyed on hearing this…

What I am going to say now may not be directly related to this thread but for Indians who have not been to UK, they would be surprised to hear that British Asians who came from Kenya & Uganda really behave badly with Indians who come to UK from India. A quick background: Brits took indentured laborers from India to work on railway tracks etc. in Kenya 100-150 years back. Though these Indians got educated & prospered over the decades in East Africa but over the period of time started talking, dressing & even speaking like their black counterparts (some Gujratis from E.Africa even speak ‘Swahili’ at home). When these East Africans Indians were thrown out of East Africa (they use to misbehave with blacks there), they came to UK around 1970. Some of these East African Brit Asians have not visited India for decades & most of them openly bad mouth India & Indians.

I have never seen a more rude and badly behaved bunch in my life. The only thing Indian about these East African creatures (who are mostly Gujrati & Sikhs) is their Indian names. These East African Brit Asians get angry when you call them Indians & angrily tell you ‘excuse me, we are British Asians, don’t call us Indians' (they are ashamed of their Indian roots). These East African Brit Asians suffer from a deep rooted inferiority complex (becoz of their indentured laborer background)…They smile & talk politely with Brit ‘whites’ but frown & are openly abusive,rude when interacting with Indians from India mocking Indians about their Indian accent & openly misbehaving with Indians. Any Indian from India (or for that matter any Indian American, Indian Australian etc.) staying in UK would tell you that these East African British Asians are one of the most ugly creatures (and I don’t just mean in looks) on this planet earth.

When I was new in UK(London), I used to enthusiastically approach & try to talk to these East African British Asians but was shocked at their crude & abusive behavior(after years in London now, I have wisened up so try to avoid interacting with them as much as possible). The more you get to know them, the more you are shocked at the amount of poison they harbor inside them for Indians(Indians who have come to UK from India). Reality is there is no love lost in UK between most East African Brit Asians and Indians from India.

Some of the Sikhs who came to UK from East Africa were the ones who were in the forefront funding this ‘Khalistani’ movement in the past & also created websites talking of Sikhism being a different religion etc. You have to see the fanaticism of some Sikhs in UK to believe it…

[Guest]

I guess 'Dharmo rakshati rakshit: sums it up. For several hundred years Sikhs would have been bewildered and dejected had any Hindu claimed that Sikhs were not Hindu. Now it is the turn of Hindus to be dejected and bewildered that Sikhs do not consider themselves Hindus.
How do Jains feel about their separate religion?
There are sects and movements in islam that pay with their blood to have the right to be called Muslims - which the other Muslims routinely trash. There are sects and cults in xianity that claim to be xistians while the mainstream ones routinely trash them as non-xitians. On the other hand there is Hindu Dharma that its progeny feel so alienated about that they want nothing to do with it.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Some of the Sikhs who came to UK from East Africa were the ones who were in the forefront funding this ‘Khalistani’ movement in the past & also created websites talking of Sikhism being a different religion etc. You have to see the fanaticism of some Sikhs in UK to believe it… <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have seen it, they believe they are more close to Muslims and Arabs than Indian's from India. But Sikhs from India are no different. Completely brainwashed. Sikhs from India favor Pakis and stay away from Indian Hindus.
During CA text book issue, they went against Hindus and claimed Hindus make them eat dead animals for 2000 years. These Sikhs came from Sacramento, CA, Davis, Ca and Yuba City, CA.
Here in US, Fremont, CA and other Gurdwara display Bhiderwala picture even today.

Two weeks back, someone I know got married to Sikh girl in South hall, London. Marriage took place in Arya Samaj and later couple went to Gurdwara. Girl's family asked couple to bow (Matha takey) in front of Bhinderwala, groom refused to do so. Bride family and Granthi were not happy. Now we are counting how long this marriage will last.

[Guest]

Punjab Tangle
<b>BJP warns Badal, Dera seeks PM's role</b>
Agencies
Posted online: Monday, May 21, 2007 at 1621 hours IST
Updated: Monday, May 21, 2007 at 1938 hours IST
Sirsa (Haryana), May 21: The BJP warned of ‘hard decisions’ in Punjab in case the party's alliance government with SAD failed to maintain law and order and safeguard the life and property of the citizens in the wake of the stand-off between Dera Sacha Sauda and Sikhs.

The party had an emergent meeting of state office bearers presided over by state chief Rajinder Bhandari.

"If anything goes wrong in any part of the state, the government headed by Parkash Singh Badal shall be solely responsible and answerable. BJP will not hesitate in taking hard decisions in the larger interests of the people of Punjab," a release said.

Bhandari, however, declined to divulge the hard decisions. "These will be unfolded when time comes," he said later.
The Congress, on the other hand, charged the Badal government with failing to fulfill its fundamental duty.

"Despite offer of full cooperation to the state government for restoration of peace and tranquility, the administration is running away from its fundamental duty of safeguarding life and property of citizens," state Congress chief Shamsher Singh Dullo said.

He described the showing of naked swords in Harmandir Sahib at Amritsar and other cities as ‘unfortunate’.

Expressed concern over the ‘continuing and escalating unfortunate incidents of violence’, the state CPM said these are ‘providing fertile ground’ for anti-people and anti-national forces.

It also blamed both the Akali-BJP combine as well as the Congress of fighting a proxy war and in turn threatening the state's harmony.

Dera chief asks for PM's intervention

The Dera Sacha Sauda appealed to President A P J Abdul Kalam and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to mediate to solve their tangle with the Sikhs in the best interests of the country.

Making the appeal through media, Dera's chief spokesman Aditya Insaan also urged the Punjab government to observe 'Raj Dharma' in the wake of Tuesday's Punjab bandh called by the Sikh high priests.

The Punjab government should work honestly and protect all sections of the society, he said.

Declaring that the sect would not close Deras in Punjab as directed by the Sikh priests, Insaan said that to close or not to close the Deras in Punjab was the responsibility of the Punjab government.

He said Dera chief Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh had expressed his regrets for all what happened and had also asserted that there was no intention to show any disrespect to the 10th Sikh Guru Gobind Singh by imitating any of his actions or his dress.

Insaan expressed his shock that the intrinsic value of Dera chief's regrets was not taken with the same spirit with which it was expressed.

The Dera had full faith in the law of the land and now they shall find redressal through law, he said adding the Dera followers were not at all frightened by the events.

He emphasised that their peaceful protest through blood donations, eye and body donation and other programmes in the service of the society would continue.

Meanwhile, in the wake of Tuesday's Punjab bandh call, the Sirsa district administration has beefed up security in the town especially around the Dera Sacha Sauda premises in Sirsa to avoid any untoward incident.

The security has been increased within the Dera and barriers have been erected around the 'Gufa' of the Dera chief.

The para-military forces have intensified flag marches and the entire district has been converted into a fortress.

Barricades have been erected on all the roads connecting Punjab.

Sirsa Superintendent of Police Vikas Arora said that every effort would be made to maintain peace and tranquility in the district and none would be allowed to engage in violence.

Various Sikh organisations on day decided to observe a complete bandh in Sirsa town on Tuesday to express solidarity with the decisions taken against the Dera Sacha Sauda by the five Sikh high priests.

The local Sikhs at a meeting at Daswin Patshahi Gurdwara appealed to the people of the town to observe complete and peaceful bandh.

Through a similar appeal, the priests of the Gurdwara in the Odhan town of the district have also appealed for a complete band in Odhan on Tuesday.

[Guest]

Some random thoughts:

In the 1980s when Punjab was rocked by the so called ‘Khalistani’ movement, Punjab being a border state, even some smugglers operating in Punjab found it more convenient to carry on their smuggling by calling themselves Sikh militants. One of the reasons terrorism in Punjab could be curbed was, unlike Kashmir where Muslims form, I think, over 90% of population, Punjab had roughly 52% Sikhs & 48% Hindu population i.e. roughly equal population of Sikhs-Hindus ...of course militancy also ended in Punjab because KPS Gill went after these Sikh militants and killed most of them.

Bhindrawalla was a crook, plain & simple. When operation Bluestar was conducted, army rescued 100s of sexually exploited women who had been forcibly kept inside the Golden temple by Bhindrawalla & gang. Large amounts of arms & ammunitions were also recovered from the pond & inside the temple. Some Sikhs may go blue in the face denying all this as true but I remember seeing on some TV channel years back about these women being rescued and also arms being recovered from the Golden temple.

Talking of Sikhs, I was recently talking to an East African Brit Asian Sikh (who works in the same office as me) in London. He started mocking the 1857 uprising. I told him Sikhs should be ashamed of their role in 1857 as one of the main reasons 1857 did not succeed was because Sikhs sided with the British in 1857 instead of fighting along with their fellow Indians against the Brits. Ask any Sikh the role of Sikhs in 1857 uprising and see them squirm with embarrassment and coming up with all sorts of excuses to justify their betrayal.

I must mention one more thing here…Some Sikhs think of Bhindrawalla as their 11th Guru but not many Sikhs even acknowledge the sacrifice of Banda Bahadur. Guru Gobind requested Banda Bahadur (who was a Hindu Brahmin) to continue the fight against Muslims after Guru Gobind Singh took Sanyaas. Banda Bahadur was one of the best warriors ever known and terrorized Muslim goons so much that Muslims used to pee in their pants just hearing his name. He was eventually betrayed by Sundari, wife of Guru Gobind Singh, to the Mughals (this can be verified by history books). Even when he was caught and tortured, he refused to convert to Islam and he was perhaps more brave than any Sikh in history.

[Guest]

Some of my first cousins are married to Sikh girls while some other cousins were married into Sikh families (and these were arranged and not love marriages). But from the last few years when Sikhs have started talking of Sikhism as a separate religion, I don’t think anyone in my family now would even dream of marrying from or marrying into a Sikh family.

One of the reasons Sikh numbers (population) was increasing in the past was because of inter-caste marriages i.e. Hindu-Sikh marriages…Now Sikhs see marrying Hindus as marrying into another religion (for Sikhs it is not inter-caste marriage anymore but Sikhs see it now more as inter-religious marriage). Hindus have also stopped making their first son as Sikh after Sikhs started proclaiming Sikhism as a separate religion so the net result of this would be total Sikh population may started falling in the coming decades.

I hope better sense prevails amongst Sikhs in the coming decades as Sikhs more than Hindus would suffer in the long run (by cutting the umbilical cord and slowly trying to severe all ties with Hindus, Sikhism faith may totally disappear in a century or so).

Let’s also face it, the respect and awe Sikhs inspired amongst Hindus before 1980s has slowly disappeared. First the Punjab militancy followed by anti-Sikh riots (orchestrated by Congress) and Sikhs declaring Sikhism as a separate religion etc has somewhat soured ties between Hindus and Sikhs.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Even when he was caught and tortured, he refused to convert to Islam and he was perhaps more brave than any Sikh in history.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->You can praise the one without making superlative comparisons to others. This is not a contest. Also, when one person refuses to convert to islam under fatal torture and another does the same - how can anyone decide that one of these two is braver than the other?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I told him Sikhs should be ashamed of their role in 1857 as one of the main reasons 1857 did not succeed was because Sikhs sided with the British in 1857 instead of fighting along with their fellow Indians against the Brits.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The Brits always played the divide and rule game. They chose to isolate the Sikhs on purpose, to specifically recruit them into their army and favour them particularly. The Brits wanted to inculcate Sikh gratitude and ensure their eventual segregation from the rest of Dharmic population. And they succeeded to large measure. Basically those Sikhs who sided with the Brits were the product of a calculated chance the Brits took.
But then, their policies have ever paid off: British colonialism has left a very divisive legacy all over Bharat.

Don't just think of 1857, because there are many cases in Indian history where Dharmics have fought beside tyrants (muslims, Brits) against other Dharmics. It's not just the Sikhs who are guilty of this. We might well have long ago freed ourselves of islamic tyranny or at least of the Brits if no Dharmic Indian had betrayed his own people for momentary comforts.

EDIT: I see you were talking to a Khalistani-type person.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->claimed Hindus make them eat dead animals for 2000 years. These Sikhs came from Sacramento, CA, Davis, Ca and Yuba City, CA.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Certain I'm missing something here, because even Khalistanis ought to know that their religion is not 2000 yrs old...
Were they really claiming Hindus made them become non-veg (that's the meaning of 'eating a dead animal' after all; besides I don't think anyone wants to be eating <i>live</i> animals). <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> I don't understand their logic.

Post 52:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For several hundred years Sikhs would have been bewildered and dejected had any Hindu claimed that Sikhs were not Hindu. Now it is the turn of Hindus to be dejected and bewildered that Sikhs do not consider themselves Hindus.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not meaning to nitpick, just indicating that I missed the point being made in this statement. It contains a logic error. It says
(1) in the past Sikhs <i>would have</i> been bewildered <i>had any</i> Hindus claimed Sikhs were not Hindu. That is, this statement does not argue that Hindus had ever made such a claim. It is conceptual - a 'what-if' scenario.
(2) Then the 2nd part says: now it's the turn of Hindus to feel bewildered that Sikhs don't consider themselves Hindu. This is a concrete case. This 2nd statement now states that it is our turn to feel <i>in reality</i> what others would have felt <i>in theory</i> (1st statement)....

Will you restate it with the intended meaning?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+May 22 2007, 12:15 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ May 22 2007, 12:15 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Even when he was caught and tortured, he refused to convert to Islam and he was perhaps more brave than any Sikh in history.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->You can praise the one without making superlative comparisons to others. This is not a contest. Also, when one person refuses to convert to islam under fatal torture and another does the same - how can anyone decide that one of these two is braver than the other?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Even my nephew can understand that what I wrote above were two different thoughts no.1 when he was caught and tortured, he refused to convert to Islam and no.2 to sum up about Banda bahadur, he was perhaps nore brave than any Sikh in history so don't try to link 2 different thoughts together to come with an all together different conclusion 'Also, when one person refuses to convert to islam under fatal torture and another does the same - how can anyone decide that one of these two is braver than the other'?

Today when Sikhs claim they have nothing to do with Hinduism anymore, they even conveniently forget the sacrifices made by men like Banda Bahadur who fought on behalf of Sikhs.

And who has made you a judge and a jury anyway regarding what is 'superlative' and what is not? Regarding my making comparisons et all, next time I need your opinion, I will give it to you.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't just think of 1857, because there are many cases in Indian history where Dharmics have fought beside tyrants (muslims, Brits) against other Dharmics. It's not just the Sikhs who are guilty of this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Two wrongs don't make a right....This arguement 'so what if their(sikhs) shirt is torn, your(Hindus) fly is open'...you think such an arguement is enough to absolve Sikhs of their role in 1857? Is this what you are saying?

One more thing, if any Hindu turned out to be a 'gaddar' in the past, most of us freely admit that person was a 'gaddar' rather than trying to obfuscate the issue by saying 'so what if this person did a wrong, others also may have done it'...

My brother-in-law is a Sikh and half my close relatives are Sikhs...No one here is trying to bad mouth Sikhs but let us not get so carried away that we try to 'whitewash' history and in the process we totally lose sense of objectivity while talking about the past.

[Guest]

Arun Shourie had done some research and has a great chapter in his book 'Secular Agenda'. He notes..

<b>Granth Sahib </b>invokes the name of
Krishna over 10,000 times
Rama over 2000 times
Parabrahma 550 times
Omkar 400 times
invokes authority of Vedas, Puranas, Smritis - 350 times

Names of Nirguna Absolute - Jagdish, Nirankar, Niranjan, Atma, Paramatma, Parmeshwar, Antaryami, Kartar - are invoked 2600 times

Saguna deity - Gobind, Murari, Damodar, Vasudev, Mohan, Banwari, Madhusudan, Keshav, Chaturbhuj etc - 2000 times.

Can post a lot more, but you get the gist....

And Guru Tegh Bahadur was executed explicitly for his defence of Hindus in Kashmir, executed in company of his Hindu devotees.

[Bharatvarsh]

The idea that Sikhs have only recently begun to distinguish themselves as separate from Hindus is false, this began way back in early 1900's with movements like Tat Khalsa and Singh Sabha, at first there were many among Sikhs who said they were Hindus but in the end the opposite faction won out and the idea of a Sikh identity as distinct from a Hindu one became dominant.

Also the idea of a distinct identity for the Khalsa (not Sikh but just the Khalsa panth) has quite a long history and even some pre British chronicles support this.

Let me give an example, many Hindus cite the quote "sakal jagat mo khalsa ...." but don't bother citing it, after a lot of search I managed to locate it here:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->skl jgq mo Kwlsw pMQ gwjY ]
jgY Drm ihMduk qurkn duMd BwjY ]
swry jgq ivc Kwlsw pMQ dw bol bwlw hovygw [
ihMdU Drm PYl jwvygw qy qurkW nUM BwjV pY jwvygI [
Throughout the world the Khalsa Panth will be prominent
The Hindu Dharma will prevail, and the Turks will be in flight.

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/Scriptures/.../uggardanti.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is from Uggardanti, a composition on Devi but it is not accepted by all Sikhs, nextly Kahn Singh Nabha of 1899 Ham Hindu Nahin authorship, puts the break
after dharam, giving us jagai dharam, hinduk turk dund bhAjai. meaning may dharma awaken, and hindu turk both flee.

But in Uggardanti itself we find the following later on:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->XhI dyh AwigAw qurkn gih KpwaUN ]
gaU Gwq kw doK jg isauN imtwaUN ]
ieh hukm idE ik qurkW nUM mwr imtWvW [
gaU mwrn dw duK swry sMswr ivcoN imtw dyvW [
Command me to kill and destroy the Turks (Muslims).
Eliminate the killing of the cow from the entire universe.

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/Scriptures/.../uggardanti.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->duhUM pMQ mYN kpt iv`dXw clwnI ]
bhuV qIsrw pMQ kIjY prDwnI ]
dohW pMQW (ihMdU Aqy ieslwm) ivc kpt (mwVI) ividAw cl rhI hY [
Awky qIsry pMQ nUM pRDwnI (aucweI) bKSo [
Both religions (Hindu and Islam) are getting contaminated.
Come and elevate a third religion (panth).

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/Scriptures/.../uggardanti.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->krhu Kwlsw pMQ qIsr pRvysw ]
jgih isMG joDy Drih nIl Bysw ]
qIsrw pMQ Kwlsw (ihMdU Aqy ieslwm qoN vKrw) bxwE [
isMG sUrbIr pRgt hox jyhVy nIly Bys vwilAW (ArQwq muslmwn=qurk) jo
nIly kpVy pwauNdy sn nUM A`gy Dr lYx = Bwv, Bjw dyx [ (XQw:- -"nIl
bsqR lY kpVy pihry, qurk pTwxI Aml kIAw -Awsw dI vwr ivc nIl bsqR
pwEx vwly qurkW (muslmwnW) nUM AwiKAw hY) [
Designate the third religion (panth) (different to the Hindu and
Islam).
The stalwart Singh warriors shall rise and make the blue clothed
Muslims (Turks) flee. (In 'Assa-di-Vaar' , the Muslims are the
wearers of blue clothes e.g. "Neel bastar ley kapre pehrey turk
pathani amal kiya". Meaning: - all the people started wearing blue,
the attire of the muslims and also followed their way of life.)

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/Scriptures/.../uggardanti.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I cannot say how authentic these translations are, but any rate in Khalsa literature the Panth is usually referred to as the "tisar panth".

The following is from a Pre British Rahit Nama (unfortunately there is no other translation of it online to check if the translation is faithful or not):
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Attitude Towards Hindus

Do not worship at cenotaphs, nor pay heed to any temple, religious vow, place of pilgrimage, goddess, god, fasting, 1-lindu worship, idols, mantras, or Brahmans. Do not make libations to the gods. Do not repeat the Gayatri, nor the evening prayers of Hindus. Do not worship at the cenotaph or tomb of some dead person. Do not hold a shraddh ceremony. Do not wear a sacred thread, feed a clean-shaven person, worship an idol, believe in an earthen image, or desert your own Guru. Do not observe the following: offerings to ancestors, Hindu evening ritual, bride-price, worship of the sun and planets, worship of gods, idol worship. Belief in the merits of particular phases of the moon is futile. Do not pierce your ears or your nose. Do not believe in the six darshans. Do not wear a tilak. Do not take food at a hair-cutting ceremony. Do not undergo a tonsure ceremony. A Brahman should not ride a bull. End the authority of the Hindu. A Singh should feed a Hindu. Having become a Singh, do not seek to learn the Hindu scriptures. You will become involved in the futile concerns of the Brahmans and will abandon the Guru's hymns. It is acceptable to have studied the Hindu scriptures before becoming a Singh. If a Brahman does not maintain his kes uncut and has not been initiated into the Khalsa do not accept food from his hands or make any offering to him. Those who worship Shankaracharya, Dattatreya, Ramanuja, or Gorakhnath will go to a horrible hell. [10, 12, 14, 30, 37, 40, 42, 44, 50, 61, 62, 69, 75, 76, 77, 83, 87, 88, 91]

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-way-of-l...rahit-nama.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interestingly we know that tilak was applied by Guru Arjun to Jahangir's son and Bhai Buddha also applied tilak to one of the Gurus as a sign of his succession to Guruship, but this later rahit nama asks them not to wear it.

There is a lot of other material, Hindus have not dealt with many of these things and as far as I am concerned it is futile to argue for a Hindu identity for Sikhs since they don't want to be labelled as such, I always felt that it's better Hindus concentrate on self declared Hindus and unite ourselves first rather than bothering about others.

Any way why are Hindus always begging this or that community to call themselves Hindus, have we got no sense of pride or what?