Dera Sucha Sauda -Sikh conflict in India

[Guest]

<b>Swami Agnivesh, other religious leaders meet Dera chief </b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Dera's legal advisor Sumer Chand said the CBI, in its four to five years of investigations, has not been able to identify the author of the anonymous letter in which allegations were levelled against the Dera and its head.

The Sikh high priests have sought expediting of the CBI probe in connection with the murder of a Sirsa journalist who had written against the Dera and alleged some wrongdoings in its Sirsa Headquarters<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bharatvarsh, I wanted to ask you a question, would you also say 'as far as I am concerned it is futile to argue for a Hindu identity for Buddhists, Jains, Dalilts or for that matter maybe even SC/STs etc since they don't want to be labelled as such?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you talk to SC/ST's before you came to this conclusion and how exactly did you think that the so called Dalit org's (mostly on missionary pay role) represent the community in it's diversity all over Bharat?

And yes if Buddhists and Jains decide that they don't want to be called Hindus, then there is no use in Hindus doing so?

The actual % of Hindus in India today is maybe 75% when you take out crypto xtians and this is when you count Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists as separate.

If you are a practicing Sikh then it's one thing to argue for whatever identity you deem fit, but if Sikhs are fine with a non Hindu identity then who are we to deny them that, all these Hindu orgs keep on repeating the same old nonsense about Sikh identity and then the Khalistanis use it to show us as trying to swallow up Sikhism.

Hindus today are over 800 million and if we unite and take action against threats facing the nation nothing can stop us, instead we are too busy begging this or that community to be Hindus and getting spat at.

I see this slave mentality among Hindus everywhere, some losers claim the British saved us, other losers claim that the Sikhs saved us and that they are the "sword arm"!!!

Of course the Khalistanis are all having a good laugh seeing all these losers and they point to Hindus and say "look at these short, dark, rice eating cowards, if not for our martial race you wouldn't even be here" and of course the obedient Hindu nods his head and agrees.

I do not give a crap what Sikhs want to call themselves or what path they chart out for themselves, my first concern is "self declared" Hindus and that's how it always will be, oh and I certainly don't believe they are our "sword arm" like many loser Hindu authors do.

[Bharatvarsh]

As for Banda, many old accounts claim that he tried to become the 11th Guru and changed the Sikh salutation and promoted vegetarianism which caused a rift within his forces with some people breaking away from him and calling themselves as the Tat Khalsa (nothing to do with modern day Tat Khalsa movement), some Sikh accounts say he was given Amrit, others say that he was never baptised, at any rate the general story is that Guru Gobind Singh's wife Mata Sundari wrote to him asking him to stop his campaign which he refused to do and upon that he was excommunicated and that later on Bhai Mani Singh settled the dispute between tat Khalsa and Bandai Khalsa.

"According to orthodox Sanatan Sikh tradition and Budha Dal oral tradition as recounted in Pracheen Panth Prakash, over time, Banda was overwhelmed with false pride and became arrogant. His mistreatment of the Khalsa, and alterations of the Guru-ordained Khalsa traditions, resulted in the Khalsa warriors loosing respect for him. Banda declared himself a Guru, advocated teetotalism (a throwback to his earlier life as a Vairagi), altered the Khalsa salutation, stopped wearing blue, etc. The mighty Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa, lead by Akali Nihang Baba Binod Singh and his son, Akali Nihang Baba Kahn Singh opposed these Hindu Vairagi innovations of Banda. Such was the fighting that the Akali Nihang warriors risked martyrdom in order to oppose Banda:

‘Banda wished to make Sikh abandon their blue dress, to refrain from drinking and eating flesh: and instead of exclaiming Wa! Guruji ki Futteh! Wa! Khalsaji ki Futteh! The salutations directed by Govind, he directed them to exclaim, Futteh D’herm! Futteh dersan! Which means, ‘Success to piety! Success to the sect!’ These innovations were very generally resisted: but the dreaded severity of Banda, made many conform to his orders. The class of Acalis, or immortals, who had been established by Guru Govind, continued to oppose the innovations with great obstinacy: and many of them suffered martyrdom, rather than change either their mode of salutation, diet or dress: and, at the death of Banda, their cause triumphed. All the institutions of Guru Govind were restored.’
‘Sketch Of The Sikhs’, by J.C. Malcolm, 1812, P. 83

Aside from confusing the Sikh salutation, everything stated by Malcolm in the quote can be collaborated by Akali Nihang oral tradition, Rattan Singh Bhangu’s 'Pracheen Panth Prakash', and Giani Gian Singh Nirmala’s 'Naveen Panth Prakash'. Banda was eventually declared an apostate and excommunicated from the Sikh faith. With this split within the Khalsa, two factions arose – the followers of Banda became to be known as ‘Bandai Khalsa’, and the Akali Nihang Khalsa came to be referred to as the ‘Tat’ (pure) Khalsa or ‘Akal Purkhieh’ (those believing in the Immortal Almighty).

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_sa...ndai2.html "

The book my Malcolm is available online and contains the exact same quote.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am not sure if you know the story of Bhai Nand lal ji!! He was an ‘ISLAMIC SCHOLAR’ of Arabian, Quran and Persian living in Ghazni! and became very famous among Ulemmas.. He became so much famous that people all over India knew him as a Hindu who knows more about Islam than Muslims themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Lest Bajwa's post may give an impression to some reading his post that Nand lal ji was born a Muslim. Bhai Nand Lal Goya (1633-1713) was a great scholar of Persian; he was one of the fifty-two poets in the court of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. He was born in a thriving town called Ghazni in Afghanistan in 1633 and was thus 23 years older than Guru Ji. His father was Diwan Chajju Ram, the Mir Munshi or Chief Secretary of the Governor of Ghazni.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Well Since there may be more soldiers in Punjab (than saints) Government of India should get more people in defense forces from Punjab!!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Armed forces already have a lot of men from Punjab...Having said this, Indian arm forces need more 'Secular' men who can think logically and rationally and not fundamentalists who are trigger happy i.e. come out on the streets and start brandishing swords at the drop of a hat.

Not many people are aware but a lot of Sikhs in the army ‘deserted’ the army and ran away after operation Blue star. Armed forces, in fact, could do with less people, from communities, who seem to get easily brainwashed & swayed (to act irrationally) in the name of religion.

[Guest]

Off course!! Hindus are majority of India and with self defeated mentality we cannot get far. Majority needs to be assertive and full of optimism for country or society to progress.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Lest Bajwa's post may give an impression to some reading his post that Nand lal ji was born a Muslim.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Read the whole post!! It specifically says that Aurungzeb wanted to convert Bhai Nand lal ji to Islam (due to his islamic education credentials) while Guru Gobind Singh gave Bhai Sahib shelter at Anandpur.

Bhai Nand Lal ji was a Hindu of aristocratic family who became Khalsa on 1699 Visakhi.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Emperor was tired of the reports and complaints which reached him daily of the ever increasing distress of his dominions. When all other expedients failed, he devised a plan to utilise the influence of the Matas Sundri and Sahib Devi v widows of the deceased Guru Gobind Singh who were then residing at Dehli. His Majesty asked them to induce Banda to abandon his predatory profession, on which he arid his followers should be granted Jagirs. Banda replied that no faith could be put in the Emperor ; that he wanted to allure them by the offer of Jagirs to their men to their ultimate annihilation. On receipt of this reply the Emperor imprisoned the ladies with the idea that the Singhs would come to terms in order to save the honour of the ladies. Thereupon the ladies sent a painful letter to Banda sking him to submit. He re- plied that they must endure everything because the submission of the Khalsa to a tyrant, would mean the frustration of the Guru Gobind Singh's mission. The ladies requested him to submit to the authority of his majesty on pain of excommunication. Banda's reply to this was also in the negative with the remarks, that he was  merely a Bairagi Faqir and had neither friend nor foe; that he was not a follower of Guru Gobind Singh and therefore could not be an outcast; and that he was merely carrying out the orders of Guru Gobind Mngh in regard to the campaign of vengeance for the destruction of the tyrant, and the protection of the Khalsa. Upon this Banda was charged with disobedience and disregard of Guru Gobind Singh's commandments and edicts were issued for his excommunication on the following grounds.

1. That he had married, breaking the celibacy which was enjoined upon him.

2 That contrary to Guru Gobind Singh's man* date, he had started his own religion.

3. That he had substituted Charan pahaul for

Rhanda pahaul

4. That he had invented Fatih daras (victory to faith) instead of Fatih Vaheguru jl ki (victory to the Lord).

5. That Singhs were called Bandal (Bandars) instead of Guru's.

6. That he attired himself in royal dress, which was against the Guru's orders.

7. That he called himself the eleventh Guru of the Singhs, and

8. That he displayed pride and arrogance and meant to rule over the Singhs instead of considering himsalf their brother and equal.

This edict was sealed with the cnrse that owing to disregard of these commandments Banda was sure to die in imprisonment. On receipt of this edict, the true Singhs (or Tat Khalsa) separated themselves from Banda, who leaving them at Arnritsar, went to Gurdaspur.

The Singhs were thus divided between themselves and became antagonistic to each other.

The news of this division pleased and gratified the Emperor. He proposed to enlist their services on his own side and sent a long letter with precious presents offering a Jagir of Rs. 51,000 for the old and aged Singhs and invited meat service tt Lahore. The rate of pay fixed waa B». 15 per mensem for the foot and Rs. 30 per mensem for the mounted soldier. The Sardars were to get Rs. 5 daily each. For the maintenance of the rest Rs. 5,000 per mensem and the Parganah of Jhabal was granted in Jagir. The treaty of peace contained the following terms for guidance of the parties:—

1. That the Khalsa would not attack any territory under the Mugal Empire ;

2. That they were precluded from helping Banda ;

3. That if any foreign enemy attacked the Pan jab, it was incumbent upon the Tat Khalsa to help the Government;

4. That the money and Ja#ir allotted to the Khalsa were never to be varied ;

5. That no Hindu in the Panjab should, in future, be forced to embrace Islam ;

6. That the Hindus were, for the future, to be at liberty to perform their religious ceremonies in any way they liked ;

7. That the Hindus of the Panjab were, in future, to pay no extra tax in excess of Muhammadans;

8. That any Singh undertaking agriculture would be required only to pay revenue at half-rates ;

9. That the. slaughter of cattle in the Panjab was to cease for ever ;

10. That in future no Muhamrnadan was at liberty to forcibly deflower any Hindu woman.

Thus the separation of the two factions was completed and all efforts and contrivances of Banda failedto effect a reconciliation.

History And Philosophy of The Sikh Religion Part 1.,  Khazan Singh. 1914. pg 210 - 212.

http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/scripts/Fullin...e=2990150058414<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Not many people are aware but a lot of Sikhs in the army ‘deserted’ the army and ran away after operation Blue star. Armed forces, in fact, could do with less people, from communities, who seem to get easily brainwashed & swayed (to act irrationally) in the name of religion. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am one of those lucky few who saw them coming in trucks, hands tied to 3 ton trucks (Army trucks) metal casing, wearing underpant only. After there hands were untied some decided to hold ears and did some bend up and down in front of Subedar and were frisked inside barracks for further action. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[Guest]

True!! but after martyrdom of Banda Singh Bahadur and 700 Khalsa at Delhi. Bandai Sikhs threw their lot with Tatva Khalsa Sikhs and under Sardar Kapur Singh the whole Khalsa became united (around when Nadir Shah invaded india in 1724). Then Kapur Singh when he became old passed on Jathedari to young disciple named Jassa Singh Ahluwlia., Jassa Singh created two groups named Buddha Dal for old and Taruna Dal for young. It was all the bands under Jassa Singh who in 1764 harassed Ahmad Shah Abdali after he had defeated Marathas at Panipat. Thus! abdali returned 6-7 times to just defeat Sikhs but could not.. he destroyed golden temple many times.

One thing I want to clarify is that people do not have sense of history! in 1764 (65 years after creation of Khalsa) Sikhs were hunted and were being murdered and were very few in numbers., thus Sikhs who were so few in numbers could not have defeated Abdali. Though Sikhs supported Marathas and I believe Raghunath Rai (maratha general) even visited Golden Temple and was given Siropa (honour). Remember after martyrdom of Banda Bahadur people openly said that Sikhs are finished.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The actual % of Hindus in India today is maybe 75% when you take out crypto xtians and this is when you count Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists as separate.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And how exactly did you arrive at a magical figure of 75%?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are a practicing Sikh then it's one thing to argue for whatever identity you deem fit, but if Sikhs are fine with a non Hindu identity then who are we to deny them that, all these Hindu orgs keep on repeating the same old nonsense about Sikh identity and then the Khalistanis use it to show us as trying to swallow up Sikhism.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What percentage of Sikhs, according to you, actually believe in the ideology of ‘Khalistan’?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hindus today are over 800 million and if we unite and take action against threats facing the nation nothing can stop us, instead we are too busy begging this or that community to be Hindus and getting spat at.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This figure of 800 million, according to you, after excluding which all communities from Hinduism?

And according to you, it is better to let various Hindu communities keep drifting away from Hinduism rather than making an effort to try to unite Hindus as making such an effort is akin to begging in your eyes.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hindus today are over 800 million and if we unite<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<b> And how exactly do YOU propose to unite 800 million Hindus? Let us hear your plan.</b>

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->instead we are too busy begging this or that community to be Hindus and getting spat at.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Was this outburst of petulance really required? And how did you come to the conclusion that Hindus are more busy ‘begging this or that community to be Hindus and getting spat at’. And I don’t exactly see Hindus being spat at (in fact, Sikhs would claim it was Hindus who did such a thing in 1984 anti-Sikh riots)

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I see this slave mentality among Hindus everywhere, some losers claim the British saved us, other losers claim that the Sikhs saved us and that they are the "sword arm"!!!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And how exactly did this concept of ‘slave mentality’ and ‘British saving us’ come into the original discussion of your claiming ‘I am concerned it is futile to argue for a Hindu identity for Sikhs since they don't want to be labeled as such’

And, simply because some Hindus may claim Sikhism as part of Hinduism automatically brands these Hindus (making such an assertion) as ‘losers’? Also, personally I have not heard many Hindus claiming ‘Sikhs saved us’.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course the Khalistanis are all having a good laugh seeing all these losers and they point to Hindus and say "look at these short, dark, rice eating cowards, if not for our martial race you wouldn't even be here" and of course the obedient Hindu nods his head and agrees.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well, unlike you, I don’t live in this LALA land where ‘of course the obedient Hindu nods his head and agrees’

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What percentage of Sikhs, according to you, actually believes in the ideology of ‘Khalistan’?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Outside India 90%+
Inside India, Punjab during 80s and 90s - above 70%+
Outside Punjab openly 30%+, other don't know.

Last census, Sikh population was 1.9%
in 2010 I won't be surprised seeing between 1.7 -1.8%

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 22 2007, 11:55 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ May 22 2007, 11:55 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What percentage of Sikhs, according to you, actually believes in the ideology of ‘Khalistan’?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Outside India 90%+
Inside India, Punjab during 80s and 90s - above 70%+
Outside Punjab openly 30%+, other don't know.

Last census, Sikh population was 1.9%
in 2010 I won't be surprised seeing between 1.7 -1.8%
[right][snapback]69198[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's absurd!! The Khalistani party of Simranjit Singh maan didn't even won a single seat in recent election in Punjab.

Tara S Hayer's group, Gurbax Malhi and Ujjal Singh Dosanjh the premier in Canada are not Khalistanis.

In England, Hindus and Sikhs are united against Islamic conversions.

In USA, Gurdwaras get Hindus students seeking some good back home type desi food.

Even in Punjab the Akali Party (Badal group) is way way liberal and not in any way connected with Khalistanis.

Some people when angry (with these DSS type babas) may raise slogans like Khalistan zindabad, etc but it is nothing more than venting an anger.

Vast majority of educated Sikhs themselves know that idea of Khalistan is hogwash... It is only juvenile < 25 years old semi-literate Sikhs who think of Khalistan as a solution to political problems of Sikhs in India.

I remind all Sikhs who spoke of Khalistan at Gurdwara that if they want a Khlistan in Indian territory then what are they doing here in USA? Will they go back and live there? Even in local Pittsburgh (USA) gurdwara less than 5% of Sikhs would qualify as extremists want to break India at all costs. Most Sikhs are passionate Indian Patriots like JJ Singh and our PM.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hindus are majority of India and with self defeated mentality we cannot get far. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Hear ye, hear ye, now a true "Gyaniji' has spoken... <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Majority needs to be assertive <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Bajwaji, assertive as in '1984'?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->and full of optimism for country or society to progress. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Bajwaji, Hindus can do without a certificate from you...Indian economy is growing at 9% and Hindus today are more optimistic and assertive than you can possibly imagine...Also, may I add not just optimistic but also mightily proud to belong to a faith 'Sanatan Dharam' which is the most scientific faith the world has ever seen and even more proud to be part of Hindu Civilization, the greatest civilization the world has probably ever seen.

So thanks for your concern but we Hindus are doing just fine...

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Punjab waits with bated breath </b>
Pioneer News Service | Chandigarh
Bandh total but tension simmers

The bandh in Punjab on Tuesday was complete and peaceful, barring stray incidents in certain remote areas.

The bandh called by the Akal Takht to protest the alleged blasphemous act of Dera Sacha Sauda chief Gurmit Ram Rahim Singh, posing as Guru Gobind Singh.   

The threat of disturbance, however, still persists since the Akal Takht has also given an ultimatum to the Dera to vacate all deras by May 27.

The hardliners took out protest marches and <span style='color:red'>raised slogans of Khalistan in Amritsar and several other towns. </span>"The bandh was completely peaceful and essential services were maintained", claimed Harcharan Bains, media advisor to Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal.

Normal life was badly hit as shops and other business establishments, educational institutions remained closed and public transport remained off the roads. Attendance in offices was thin. The trouble, however, spilled to Haryana and Jammu where protests were held by Sikhs. 
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

sbajwaji,
Reality hurts,

Every Independence Parade or Rep Day parade, we see good number of supporters raising anti-Hindu, anti-India slogan.
Every anti-India and pro Paki gathering you can find them in good number.
In CA text book issue they had no business to come and rant nonsense but they showed their good presence.
If you check Sikh TV channel, you will find all nonsense anti-Hindu and anti-India rant, with recycle picture.
For political asylum application, you can find them providing self inflicted wound with makeup pictures with burnt finger tips.
Who pay Congressman to say anti-India statements? Check every Congressman from Fresno, Stockton....
How can we forget when next door Sikh in Punjab started asking keys to Hindu house and business? Now they claim they lost thier mind then or Granthi were forcing them to do so.
In UK, all Gurdwara are Bhinderwala supporters controlled. In Bay area, Gurdwara still displays Bhinderwala pictures.
Youtube is full of Khalistanis.
Amritsar Times, Khalistan Times, Punjab times, Panth are all pro Khalistan newspaper in US

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->nd how exactly did you arrive at a magical figure of 75%?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe if you go check the 2001 census of India then you will know, according to evangelical figures the actual xtian % is 4%, 80% was the figure drawn up through census back then but it did not count in the crypto xtians and certain areas census were not taken.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What percentage of Sikhs, according to you, actually believe in the ideology of ‘Khalistan’?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would I know, whether or not they believe in Khalistan they do not wish to be called Hindus or is that too hard for you to understand?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This figure of 800 million, according to you, after excluding which all communities from Hinduism?

And according to you, it is better to let various Hindu communities keep drifting away from Hinduism rather than making an effort to try to unite Hindus as making such an effort is akin to begging in your eyes.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Over 800 million if you exclude all Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists.

You don't even have the courage to deal with quotes showing the separateness of "Sikhism" by Sikhs but want to bring them all together.

And by the way how exactly are you defining "Hinduism" here because it's upon that fundamental point this whole debate stands, many Hindus claim Vedas as the central authority but that applies neither to Jains, Buddhists nor Sikhs.

Obviously it's begging if you can't realise that since nearly a century the idea of a distinct Sikh identity became dominant and evidently Hindus still can't come to terms with it.

And I don't think all this hunky dory bringing together is happening by your generalised comments about British East African Indians and Sikhs, imagine labelling the whole community as bigots and nuts and then expecting them to join you.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->And how exactly did this concept of ‘slave mentality’ and ‘British saving us’ come into the original discussion of your claiming ‘I am concerned it is futile to argue for a Hindu identity for Sikhs since they don't want to be labeled as such’

And, simply because some Hindus may claim Sikhism as part of Hinduism automatically brands these Hindus (making such an assertion) as ‘losers’? Also, personally I have not heard many Hindus claiming ‘Sikhs saved us’. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's one thing to claim "Sikhs are Hindus" and then deal with Sikh seperatist claims objectively and another to keep repeating the same nonsense over and over, that certainly is the trait of a desperate loser.

If you think Sikhs are Hindus, then how do you propose to deal with the quotes I presented, they will not simply vanish into thin air because we don't like them.

Of course you don't see cuz I doubt you bother to read any Hindu forums, as an example check the message board of Hindu Voice UK to find such idiots.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, unlike you, I don’t live in this LALA land where ‘of course the obedient Hindu nods his head and agrees’<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well everyone can see who lives in lala land, the one who keeps on repeating the same thing or the one who takes into consideration the opinion of the community under consideration.

It must be some bridge building to have all Hindus chant "Sikhs are Hindus" while ignoring what Sikhs themselves think they are.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>INDIAN ARMY ASSERTS SIKH TROOP REVOLT HAS ENDED</b>
  Archive articles   information. June 13, 1984, Wednesday
By WILLIAM K. STEVENS, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES (NYT); Foreign Desk
Late City Final Edition, Section A, Page 1, Column 1, 924 words
DISPLAYING ABSTRACT - At least 12 more Sikh deserters from the Indian Army were reported killed today and nearly 350 more were arrested. Military officials declared the scattered three-day revolt by Sikh troops to be at an end, but 200 members of a Sikh battalion in the northeastern state of Tripura stole ...
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>574 SIKH DESERTERS REPORTEDLY HELD BY INDIAN FORCES</b>
By SANJOY HAZARIKA, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Most of the 500 to 600 Sikh troops who deserted in northeastern India on Sunday were arrested today at three places, including one where a gun battle left 26 Sikh extremists dead, Indian news agencies and officials reported tonight. At the same time, more defections and attempted defections were reported in the north and in the west, near Bombay. The Press Trust of India reported 574 arrests at points between Ramgarh and New Delhi, and an army spokesman said that if the report was accurate ''tha...
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>INDIA COMMANDER IS KILLED AS SIKHS DESERT THE ARMY</b>
By SANJOY HAZARIKA, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
A top Indian Army commander was shot dead today by an unidentified assailant in the northeastern state of Bihar and Sikh troops deserted the unit, the Government said. According to a report from United News of India, 600 Sikh troops deserted the unit and wounded 600 people, including 25 officers, in a fierce battle. The report said the commander was killed by the mutineers. The mutineers, the report said, were fully armed and ''on the way to Delhi with arms.''
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>STRIFE TEST'S INDIAN ARMY'S COHESION</b>
By SANJOY HAZARIKA
The revolt in the Indian Army by Sikh soldiers who deserted by the hundreds but are now reported to have largely surrendered or been captured has focused attention on India's military, which is regarded as nationalistic, patriotic and professional. India, with about 1.2 million men and women in the three armed services, ranks after China, the Soviet Union and the United States, in that order, in terms of the numbers of people under arms and in uniform. Some units of the army, the oldest of the t...

June 14, 1984 <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

Mudy, we have a Sikh who's chief of Indian Army today and for every 1 deserter we'll find at least 10 patriots.
All this mess in late 70s and 80s were created by Indira and her bunch and as nation we bear some responsiblities for bringing such leaders back again and again and again.

[Guest]

I think the percentage of Khalistani supporting Sikhs is miniscule in India and even in foreign lands, they are exteremely small. For these nitwits, the only thing <i>Khali </i>is the <i>stan</i> between their ears. Even that self-style "President" Chauhan who used to print his own currency, fly his own flag etc has chosen to make India his home - even the Grim Reaper/Yamadut hasn't been kind to him and ended his misery; I truly pray for his long miserable life.
Wasn't he cabinet minister with Indira Gandhi before started his Khalistani operation abroad? Only when we have a congress at center which is at odds with Punjab state govt., the issue pops up. Why?

Ajatshatru: There's a political aspect of this dispute and spiritual. In terms of spiritual, I've listed on previous page the number of times Hindu Gods or books are refered in Granth Sahib and can even put direct quotes from Gurus themselves. There's no debate there. Those in modern times wanting to walk away from Hinduism should have no problems re-writing their own text if they are so much offened by Hinduism. Or they can give up the book that extols wisdom from Hindus. It's for them to decide.

On political side, it's where things get a bit interesting. If someone - even a born-Hindu for that matter does not want to be tagged as Hindu, who are you or me to impose our views on them? World's full of anti-Hindu Hindus, just look at the roster of the groups standing in San Jose area holding anti-India banners appealing to Allaha - all 400% Hindus.
Let individuals choose their identity or paths of spiritual guidance.

[ramana]

Folks, This is not a bash Sikhs thread. It is to find out about the DSS phenomena. For all the 1857 thing, Sikhs made up for it in the 20th century. More Sikhs from Punjab were killed by British than any other community during the freedom struggle. So cut it out.
As Sandeep was saying each period has to be judged by the times it is in.

Some folks seem to have some resentment. I suggest a breather. As viren says there is more good than bad.