Dera Sucha Sauda -Sikh conflict in India

05-24-2007, 09:01 PM

QUOTEDid Guru Gobind Singh ji also ordained that 'Sikh = Khalsa' and 'Khalsa = Sikh'? Sikhs must be khalsa is largerly the interpretation today. However, to what I have read, Khalsa was a situational and temporary emergence to protect sikhi, under the historical situations of the times.

Let's come back to the logic... Both Sikh and Khalsa are mutually exclusive!!

Sikh means Disciple of a Guru.

Khalsa means "Sikh who has taken a vow of Khalsa to wear five things representing kaam krodh lobh moh hankaar and satt santokh sabr daya dharm to become a Saint as well as Soldier"

You can be a Sikh and not be Khalsa.
You cannot be a Khalsa without being a Sikh.

Vast majority of Sikhs are only "Keshdhari Sikhs" and are not Khalsa. Because the rahit of Khalsa is too strict to follow... it is basically an Army. Sahijdhari Sikhs are those who take Sri Guru Granth Sahib to be their Guru but not wearing any of the five symbols (Radhasoamis will be in this category since they do take SGGS as their Guru but also revere some human gurus)

Khalsa was not a temporary thing as per guru gobind Singh... an Army to protect a society will required as long as society is alive.

05-24-2007, 09:07 PM

QUOTEWhy didn't at least Kashmiri Brahmins became Khalsa to protect themselves from Aurungzeb..?

I think that majority of Indian people do not differentiate between Cowardice and Non-violence... and thus we have these problems.

Bajwaji, plz don't tempt me to reply to this propaganda about Sikh martial theory bull***. It will take me just a moment to deflate your 'hot air balloon' but again all I don't want this thread to degenerate to 'Sikh bashing' thread so my request again to plz refrain from making such statements (and hoping against hope your propaganda will go unnoticed by other forum members).

QUOTEIn modern times where everybody is educated they realize the futility of Satsang (except to take care of mental stress entertaining values) and thus we debate to fix issues. 

'Khalsa' logic at its best <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /> ...With such 'Khalsa' logic, all I can say is 'Raj karayga khalsa'... <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

And then why just stop at Satsang, as per your âKhalsa (or should I say 'Lahori') logic, in modern times where everybody is educated they realize the futility of going to Gurdwara (except to take care of mental stress entertaining values) and thus we debate to fix issues.

Bajwaji, Radhaswami talk of principle of 'Be good, Do good, Be one'. Radha Swami is more about following a principled lifestyle and also giving up non-veg food, alcohol and smoking etc. Radha swami teachings clearly state one is free to follow one's own religion (If you are a Hindu, keep following Hinduism, If Muslim keep following Islam, if Sikh, follow Sikhism etc) but lead a principled life. Where have Radhaswami Gurus told their followers to worship them?

Note for Admins: If Bajwa makes any further controversial statements of any other faith e.g. Hinduism as well as deliberately tries to mislead forum members about Radha Swami etc, I am going to call this man's bluff and talk in detail about harsh reality of Sikhism irrespective of whether it leads to Sikh bashing or not. I am not going to be a bystander while this man keeps taking a swipe at Hinduism, Radha Swamis etc while at the same time continuing his propaganda about Sikhism.

05-24-2007, 09:44 PM

Ajatshatru,
You are right about Radhaswami, I think he had no clue. Followers of Radhaswami are fine people. They also follow their own respective/birth religion.

All these babas are preacher or a person who give one to one talk. They just guide us how to live righteous life. Till they are doing good talk, it is fine. Majority of them are fine people. Even for long time Sikh gurus were also babas or preachers and they also followed Vedic Dharma. Later, followers started calling it different religion.
Now think about, may be even DDS Guru followers may call it different religion, may be this is a beginning of a new religion and DDS is going through same struggle as other religion went through when they started.

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 05-24-2007, 10:01 PM by Bodhi.)

QUOTESahijdhari Sikhs are those who take Sri Guru Granth Sahib to be their Guru but not wearing any of the five symbols (Radhasoamis will be in this category since they do take SGGS as their Guru but also revere some human gurus)

Thank you for clarifying. Understood now. So are Radhaswamis accepted as authentic Sikhs by Keshdhari Sikhs?

QUOTEHe himself declared that Bhai Lahina is the second Guru., there is actually no controversy about it, even Guru Nanak's both sons accepted Bhai Lahina as their Guru.

Srichandra Ji and Angad ji were perfectly amicable and respected each other. There is nothing to suggest otherwise. Srichandraji acknowledged Sri Angad ji as the fit successor of Guru Nanak ji even during the life of Guru Nanak ji - no doubt. Was there ever any challenge from Srichandraji on the Gurupad? No, never.

As I tried to say in my earlier post - there is NO controversy about the succession. Controversy is in writing off and demonizing the founder of Udasi sect - Srichandra ji, son of Guru Nanak ji, by the proponents of 'identity-crisis' neo-Sikhism. And it is not a very old phenomenon - started in late 1800s. This is a propoganda, please don't fan it further, unless you are yourselves convinced. Don't demean a great Yogi and scholar like Sri Chandra ji, and his wonderful Sannyas sect of Udasis. Please read Jadunath Sarkar's 'A History of Dashanami and Naga Sannyasis' if you can find it - is not to be found anywhere it seems. The book predates modern politics.

QUOTESanyas is futile for society as per Guru Nanak dev as well as Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Please. Sikh as well as non-Sikh sants did popularize the ancient values of Grihastha Sadhana, and did challenge the 'Sannyas as the ONLY way' to self realization, even preferred Grihastha over Sannyasa. But please do quote where Sants have said what you say : 'Sanyas is futile'. Sants were and are Grihastha-viraktas, but does not mean there is no place for Sannyasa! A true dharmik tradition should have place and tolerance for all the currents and varieties of spiritual traditions. "Simplification" and "templatization" is certainly not a hallmark of Indic dharma.

QUOTEaccording to many Sakhis (stories) Guru Nanak dev ji often tested his sons and rejected them both.
I will be interested in learning these. Can you kindly quote the Sakhis specific to Srichandraji?

to Ajatshatru : one need not get worked up. Sandeep Bajwa is only adding value to the discussion as far as I can see. I could not find where he is "taking swipe at Hinduism". True, propoganda is a matter of fact throughout the Internet. We can challenge it without getting angry - to some extent.

05-24-2007, 10:27 PM

Bodhi, your assumption that I am getting worked up is just that....an assumption.

I can in fact point out some instances where he has done just that...taken a dig at Hinduism, Radha Swamis but, I think, Bajwa knows exactly what I am talking about....and I will leave it at that for the present moment.

And far from getting worked up, if I reply, I know, it may have a cascading effect as it did earlier so I do hope Bajwa talks about Sikhism without bringing any reference to Hinduism, Radha Swami etc. in his discussion(s).

05-24-2007, 10:30 PM

QUOTEPlease. Sikh as well as non-Sikh sants did popularize the ancient values of Grihastha Sadhana, and did challenge the 'Sannyas as the ONLY way' to self realization, even preferred Grihastha over Sannyasa. But please do quote where Sants have said what you say : 'Sanyas is futile'. Sants were and are Grihastha-viraktas, but does not mean there is no place for Sannyasa! A true dharmik tradition should have place and tolerance for all the currents and varieties of spiritual traditions. "Simplification" and "templatization" is certainly not a hallmark of Indic dharma.

Well... That was my understanding of SGGS and Sikhi. Anyhow...Many Nihang Singhs do not marry and are thus considered Brahacharis. The reason for Nihang Singhs to not marry is that they are "Suicide Army".

You can find quotes in SGGS pro or anti celibacy but the point is that under Khalsa Rahitnama a sikh is suppose to be Grihasta... This Khalsa rahitname is code of conduct as decided by Sikhs. I do not know what happens to the Nihangs who are celibate.. do they qualify as Khalsa or not... Maharaja Ranjit Singh for example was not a Khalsa.

05-24-2007, 10:52 PM

Mudy, excellent last post...couldn't have put it better myself..

05-25-2007, 11:31 AM

Dera seeks protection, SC refuses to intervene QUOTEThe petition moved by the Vice President of DSS pleaded that the Punjab government was turning a blind eye towards the violence against the dera in the state. It then went on to request the court to provide protection to the property and the followers of DSS.

The apex court said that the matter was for the Punjab government to handle and the court would not like to intervene at this juncture. The matter was posted for another hearing on June 04.

According to some reports DSS lawyers are expected to move the Supreme Court again today afternoon and demand courtâs intervention.

Meanwhile, the efforts to end the standoff between the Dera Sacha Sauda and Sikh organisations led by the Akal Takht were deadlocked on Thursday

05-25-2007, 09:12 PM

Dera row: Centre, PM should play active role, says SADQUOTE"The Centre and the PM should play a positive and active role to defuse the ongoing crisis," Sukhbir, the son of Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal, said.

"It (the standoff) involves a community that had played a significant role in the building of the nation," he said. <!--emo& Big Grin

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Sukhbir said he was monitoring the situation on hourly basis and stressed that the top priority of the SAD-BJP government was to ensure peace. He also sought cooperation from all political parties in defusing the situation.

He alleged that "whenever terrorism raised its head in any state, the Congress was found behind it...Congress is responsible for terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir and in Punjab which witnessed violence for about two decades." <!--emo& Big Grin

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Asked about the alleged blasphemous act by the head of the Sirsa-based sect, he said, "no Sikh will accept anyone hurting his religious sentiments."

dhu · (This post was last modified: 05-26-2007, 12:22 PM by dhu.)

Spoke to a few people. There are 2 crore followers of Dera Sucha Sauda (in Harayana alone?). When the signal was given to vote for Congress, it was basically a no contest. Any bahana was needed for Akalis to attack their political adversary. Purely political.

Also said that opposition to DSS will not hesitate to finish off Dera head.

05-26-2007, 09:43 PM

QUOTE(dhu @ May 26 2007, 08:59 AM)Spoke to a few people. There are 2 crore followers of Dera Sucha Sauda (in Harayana alone?).Â When the signal was given to vote for Congress, it was basically a no contest.Â Any bahana was needed for Akalis to attack their political adversary.Â Purely political.

Also said that opposition to DSS will not hesitate to finish off Dera head.
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Total population of Punjab is 3-4 crore, haryana is same. Total population of Sikhs around the world is 2.5 crores.

05-26-2007, 09:50 PM

Akal Takht declared that all Sauda deras to be vacated by May 27th and their baba is not even talking. It is going to be bad. Let's wait and watch.. one more day.

05-26-2007, 09:52 PM

Looking Ahead, Looking Back
Deft strokeplay by Cong, SAD
Sarbjit Dhaliwal/Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, May 25
Neither the prevailing religious confrontation nor its pattern and form are new to Punjab. It has witnessed such violent confrontations in the past. However, what is new is the time-frame. The actors involved in the confrontation between the Dera Sacha Sauda and Sikh organisations know well that we are living in more dangerous times than that of April 1978 when Punjab saw such a confrontation and paid a heavy price in form of human lives and emotional and economic devastation till late â90s.

They also know that, in these times of visual communication, violent images go to all corners of the world in a flash that only fuels a volatile situation and damage the image people and individuals who are in the forefront of such actions.

And, yet, competing sectarian interests, short-sighted as they are known to be and who usually play into the hands of self-serving politicians, take on one another.

Though the immediate cause of confrontation between the head of the dera and Sikh organisations is religious, a heavy dose of politics forms the backdrop.

Consider this: the deraâs political wing openly supported and campaigned for the Congress in the recently-held Assembly elections in Punjab which demolished the Shiromani Akali Dal(SAD) in the Malwa region, once its pocket borough. The SAD leadership, ruling the state now, had never faced such a challenge in this region earlier. And Congress had never expected that deraâs support base in Malwa can turn out to be such a big gain for it.

For future, SADâs objective is well-defined. It would like to see the weakening of the deraâs support base in Malwa region well before the next Parliamentary elections. Weakening of the deraâs hold means regaining the political space that it yielded to the Congress. Its second objective is to bring back a section of peasantry, that stood with Capt Amarinder Singh in the last election, back into the SAD fold.

The question is: that how far can SAD go in weakening the hold of the dera in Malwa region? Not too far at this stage. Why? Because, it knows that sectarian fire can consume its government if it goes out of control.

On the other hand, however much the Congress might deny it, would never like the weakening of the hold of dera in Malwa. In fact, truth is that the Congress is a discreet gainer from the confrontation between the dera and Sikh organisations. Such confrontation will push deraâs supporters into the Congress camp for years to come. It may lose a bit of support of the Sikh peasantry that backed Amarinder Singh but it will certainly gain politically from further consolidation of its position among deraâs followers.

Congress leaders have been appealing for peace but very carefully. They realize that just one wrong word can prove to be very costly for them vis-Ã -vis the dera.

It is this conflicting political interest of the these two main players in Malwa region that would keep the dera fire burning one way or the other for a long time.

The immediate fall-out of the turmoil is a telling blow to people faith in keeping peace in the state. Peace may be restored soon enough, in a week or a month, but there are worrying signs already. Investor confidence, for instance, has been shaken and it may take some to time to restored. Industrialists have expressed their concern to Chief Minster Parkash Singh Badal. The overall loser will the development of the state. Thatâs a prospect no party that means good for the state can afford to even think about.

05-26-2007, 10:24 PM

How big is this Malwa region ? Population-wise and constituency-wise ?

05-26-2007, 10:44 PM

My guess is that 20 MLAs; that means roughly about 40 lakhs voters.
Here is something more on the issue:
Shaheed Bhagat Singh replaces babaâs photos
Chander Parkash
Tribune News Service

Bathinda, May 25
Followers of Dera Sacha Sauda have started showing an unusual love for Shaheed Bhagat Singh.

Shops and other commercial establishments being run by dera followers have begun displaying the photographs of Shaheed Bhagat Singh, replacing those of Baba Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh.

The reason behind this move could not be known. However, information gathered by TNS revealed that most of the dera followers had done so to avoid any kind of harassment by members of various Sikh organisations.

Interestingly, some of the Hindu families, which were having âunflinching loyaltyâ towards Dera Sacha Sauda sect, are accepting siropas to join their respective religious fold. So far about 400 families of Bathinda, Mansa, Muktsar and Sangrur districts have shunned their ties with the dera.

Pawan Kumar, a spokesperson of the dera said these followers were never ever part of the sect. He added that they had never asked its followers to shun their parent religion.

05-27-2007, 05:29 AM

I had this link stored on hard-drive. Just remembered..

http://www.sanvaad.com/Articles_Spring_200...h_community.htm

QUOTEÂ Â Another significant dimension of dalit search for alternative cultural spaces to overcome the experience of indignity and humiliation is reflected in large scale movement of Sikh dalits towards a large number of deras and sects such as Radhasoami, Sacha Sauda, Dera Wadbhag Singh, Piara Singh Bhaniarawala, etc, or their turning to various other Sants, and dargahs of Muslim Pirs. This was highly resented by the SGPC and other Sikh organizations. 

Which of these deras is more popular amongst mazhabi sikhs ? Could this be a consolidation of mazhabi sikhs under DSS ? What is the current %age of mazhabi sikhs amongst sikhs and in punjab ?

05-27-2007, 11:06 AM

QUOTECould this be a consolidation of mazhabi sikhs under DSS ?
No.
DSS is a business enterprise in every sense. All these Dera provides lot of goodies, e.g. food, accommodation, etc.
DayalBagh near Agra (now it is part of Agra) is a small self contained town, where they have University, School etc, they have their own rule, if you are RadhaSowami, one can find subsidize accommodation. They organize Satsang etc. They have their own rift/ further division.
DDS is also having same concept. Any clue what is birth religion of current Baba of DDS?

In Punjab, Pir etc concepts are very popular and very well exploited by some section of society. Suddenly there are so many pirs are popping up in Himachal etc.
This is very much Muslim concept or this is ISI new ploy.

05-27-2007, 09:39 PM

Dera chief Sant Gurmeet tenders apologyQUOTE"We seek an apology from Guru Gobind Singh in the interest of humanity and peace," said the sect in a statement issued from its headquarters in Sirsa, about 300 km from state capital Chandigarh.

Referring to the controversial portrayal in a newspaper advertisement earlier this month, it said: "Let alone imitating the revered guru, we cannot even imagine this thought." 

Begining of end of DDS Inc.

05-28-2007, 02:19 AM

QUOTEDSS is a business enterprise in every sense.

This is similar to the arguments that EJs are only businessmen. This is almost like saying bachchaa-nadaan-hai. If it were just like any other business then Congies wont ask for a fatwa from them. And they wont be able to tilt the balance in Malwa region and there wont be such a high level of intervention and violence. Heck we wouldnt even have a separate thread for this.

From what I have seen so far

1. DSS has the capability of tilting balance in some regions in Punjab and Haryana.
2. People are willing to get violent on behalf of DSS and also against DSS.
3. There have been several references that said that DSS has reach even within the Sikh community.
4. There was some mention that this has some caste angle to it.
5. Some pretty explicit threats were issued similar to the ones issued to Kashmiri pandits.
6. NOBODY condemned ANYBODY for taking such threatening postures in the public.
7. Commies and the usual 'progressive' crowd which screams fascism when a simple brahmin takes a leak is totally silent when the 'offense' involved was dressing up as somebody. There was no indecent behavior and its not that others havent really dressed up as Guru Gobind Singhji. Heck we have Ram-Lila and its very common for people to dress up as Ram, Sita, Hanuman etc..
8. Top it all off, the 'compromise' has been brokered by Swami Agnivesh.

Something doesnt make sense.

05-28-2007, 10:46 AM

Weird sh1t is going on..

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/may/28dera.htm

Sikh high priests to meet on Tuesday to consider Dera chief's apology

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