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Jat History
#21
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Nov 2 2005, 02:28 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Nov 2 2005, 02:28 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ravi,
Post valid Jat history in this thread only.
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<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What about questions on Airavat Singh's work and his opinions ?

I suspect we will have a bit of a mish mash

Best regards

Ravi
  Reply
#22
[Most of us who start to study the History of our people, the Jats, run into a dead end, there is no mention of them in history texts or if there is, it is only in the passing.

Or we suddenly appear around the time of the Islamic invasion in lower Sindh( now Pakistan).

The History and Culture of the Indian People, (HCIP) is basically an excellent and comprehensive history of India, Complied in the early fifties by a group of dedicated historians. (Inexpensive at Rs 150 a copy the prices have not changed for 15 years- a recommended series for every house)

Yet even there for example in HCIP, vole III, there are only 2 references to the Jats .It is, as we did not exist.

Various historians have commented on this, Desraj (1934), Joon (1934) Dahiya, (1982) Pauria, and (1993) Ahlawat (1988)

To me this was also quite a surprise.

Even he, the learned Professor is silent, for his preceding chapter covers the Jat emperor Harshvardhan of Kanauj, but he is not refereed to as a Jat.

So it is with some interest I came across (his) Prof. R C Majumdar's comments Page 174, in his "Chapter of Northern India during A.D.650-750"


Ravi

*************


In Volume III, the Classical Age Professor R C Majumdar writes

" We may now critically review the main incidents narrated above in connection with the early Muslim raids on the western borderlands of India. It is well known that only four routes are open to a hostile army operating against India from the west. One way is by the sea, and the other three lies roughly speaking through Chiba Pass, Bolan Pass and the Makran coast. From the very commencement, we find the Arabs endeavoring to penetrate into India through every one of these routes. The early naval raids against Thana, Broach and Debal, and subsequent raids in the same direction, mark their vain efforts to reach India by sea. Of the land-routes, the Khyber Pass was guarded by Kabul and Zabul while the Bolan Pass was protected by the brave Jats of Kikan or Kikanan.

The long-drawn struggles of the Arabs with these powers, narrated above, mark their steady but fruitless endeavours to enter India through the two great passes. The hardy mountaineers of these regions' backed by the natural advantage of their hilly country, offered stubborn resistance to the conquerors of the world, and though often defeated, ever refused to yield.

<b> IF THERE HAD BEEN A HISTORY OF INDIA WRITTEN WITHOUT PREJUDICES AND PREDILECTIONS, </b>the heroic deeds of these brave people, who stemmed the tide of Islam for two centuries, would certainly have received the recognition they so richly deserve."
  Reply
#23
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What about questions on Airavat Singh's work and his opinions ?

I suspect we will have a bit of a mish mash
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excatly the reason why we don't want to discuss individuals but their work.
If you can find a venue to contact or interact with either Airavat or Kokkhar please do so and if okay with the authors please post here only relevant discussions.

Let's get on with History of Jats ... all posts not relevant (including this one) will be eventually removed.
  Reply
#24
Well from the Jat history thread this has turned into the 20 questions thread!

On the question of Airavat Singh let me say that I got his book while browsing on the BR forum. His articles were also nice and I have posted links on this forum and on Hindunet, travell, and other forums. But someone on BR should tell him to improve the look of his site...at least use better fonts than times new roman.

Seeing that many IF members are also BR members I'll say this; while BR is a good site for providing loads of info, sometimes they shy away from calling a spade, a spade. People who have followed the "military scenarios" thread will note that when someone wrote of fictitious attack on Pakistan the webmasters pounced on him saying, "BR should not talk about attacking Paki nuclear sites."

What the hell?? If we can't even discuss fiction scenarios how will we prepare ourselves for the real war?
  Reply
#25
[quote=PC Guleria,Nov 2 2005, 05:26 PM]
Well from the Jat history thread this has turned into the 20 questions thread!

Airavat Singh, writes what in the trade is called a “historical novel.” A few references thrown in as footnotes, on occasion, to give it a scholarly look.

His work if one may call it that, has a slant, a slant towards an audience which already has a predisposition to accepting his opinions, for that is all they really are.

The work does raise some concerns!

As one example , let us examine an extract from his work, posed by Mr Guleria.


quote=PC Guleria,Oct 30 2005, 05:24 PM]

Jat History


AS>Fresh bodies of Jat cultivators began moving into the Agra province in the 16th and 17th centuries and the Jat population soon outnumbered the original landholders.

RC> One is led to wonder where does Mr. Singh gets his information, that the Jats started to FIRST move into the Braj ( Mathura/Agra/south of Delhi) area in the 16th/17th centuries.

The Haga Jats, in the Tilpat , area, just the place where this alleged first rebellion occurred, trace their clan history back to the time of the Kushan clan of Jats, The Kushans held power in the Mathura area, circa 0 BCE.

Kaniska, whose name some may recognize, was a leader of the Kushans. His statue can be seen in the Matura Museum today. There is a photo on the Jathistory site

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

Irfan Habib, takes a stance similar to Airavat Singh. He claims the Jats moved into the Punjab area in the 10/11th century, and then moved on into today’s Haryana, UP, and Agra/Mathura region with the Muslim Moghuls, along with the “Persian Wheel”, so called by the Europeans, and known as the Arhat to Indians.

To Indians and to this day in North India, it is known as the “Arhat”, an ancient word from Sanskrit.

Habib wrote an article on the Jats,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1603

I wrote a response to part of it, in three parts
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1607



Going simply by what Indian historians , Majumdar, even Habib etc write-

The Jats are found in the Bolan pass/ Khyber pass region in the 7th – 10th century.( Majumdar) see my post above

They are found in the Sindh in the 7th century. ( Chachnama)

They are found in today’s Madhya Pradesh in Mandsor in the 4th /5th century( Yashodharman Virk).

The Jat King Salindra’s inscription, found in Kotah, Rajastan, referred to by Todd, is 5th century.

They are found in what is now Haryana and Western UP in the sixth century

Perhaps he could tell us where he claims they moved from. If they just moved in, how did numbers grow so quickly, so as to outnumber the “ original’ inhabitants?

In other words, why then is Airavat Singh trying to portray them in a depreciating tone, and as some kind of late comers?

This is one example of a look at just " one" of the opening lines of his work.

How much of it the rest do readers really wish to accept, uncritically?.

more to come!
  Reply
#26
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Fresh bodies of Jat cultivators began moving into the Agra province in the 16th and 17th centuries and the Jat population soon outnumbered the original landholders.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


What did yo uunderstand from this remark? That Jats were newcomers?

He says "fresh bodies" of Jat cultivators moved into Agra...that is there were already Jats there but more of them moved in during 16th 17th Century. This caused the Jats to outnumber others.

And what historical novel? I've only read Ops Kartikeya, which is on Indo-Pak war.
  Reply
#27
<!--QuoteBegin-PC Guleria+Nov 3 2005, 07:51 AM-->QUOTE(PC Guleria @ Nov 3 2005, 07:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Fresh bodies of Jat cultivators began moving into the Agra province in the 16th and 17th centuries and the Jat population soon outnumbered the original landholders.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


What did yo uunderstand from this remark? That Jats were newcomers?

He says "fresh bodies" of Jat cultivators moved into Agra...that is there were already Jats there but more of them moved in during 16th 17th Century. This caused the Jats to outnumber others.

And what historical novel? I've only read Ops Kartikeya, which is on Indo-Pak war.
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This is disengenous , and typical of Airavat Singh.

What does he mean by ' Fresh Bodies of Jat cultivators" moved in "?

Yes, the Jats did farming! Is that all they did?[ that we will deal with later, let stay here with the single line of Airavt Singh]

He obviously implies that they were in inisgnificant numbers, and that it is only in the 16/17th century that a major demographic chnage in the popluation occured, and the Jats achieved domination.

What then was the population % change?

% befor 16th century? % after?

Who did they displace? Where did the displacees go?

Where did thes vast new members of population come from?

Do you see the similarities between him and Habib?

Ravi Chaudhary
  Reply
#28
<!--QuoteBegin-PC Guleria+Nov 3 2005, 07:51 AM-->QUOTE(PC Guleria @ Nov 3 2005, 07:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Fresh bodies of Jat cultivators began moving into the Agra province in the 16th and 17th centuries and the Jat population soon outnumbered the original landholders.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


What did yo uunderstand from this remark? That Jats were newcomers?

He says "fresh bodies" of Jat cultivators moved into Agra...that is there were already Jats there but more of them moved in during 16th 17th Century. This caused the Jats to outnumber others.

And what historical novel? I've only read Ops Kartikeya, which is on Indo-Pak war.
[right][snapback]40549[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is disengenous , and typical of Airavat Singh.

What does he mean by ' Fresh Bodies of Jat cultivators" moved in "?

Yes, the Jats did farming! Is that all they did?[ that we will deal with later, let stay here with the single line of Airavt Singh]

He obviously implies that they were in inisgnificant numbers, and that it is only in the 16/17th century that a major demographic chnage in the popluation occured, and the Jats achieved domination.

What then was the population % change?

% befor 16th century? % after?

Who did they displace? Where did the displacees go?

Where did thes vast new members of population come from?

Do you see the similarities between him and Habib?

Ravi Chaudhary
  Reply
#29
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->They are found in today’s Madhya Pradesh in Mandsor in the 4th /5th century( Yashodharman Virk).
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Where is the proof that Yashodharman was a Jat and his clan name was Virk?

Is Virk derived from the Sanskrit Vrka for wolf?
  Reply
#30
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you see the similarities between him and Habib<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Habib work is <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
If that is your source, now I know what you are chanting.
  Reply
#31
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Nov 4 2005, 02:40 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Nov 4 2005, 02:40 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you see the similarities between him and Habib<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Habib work is <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
If that is your source, now I know what you are chanting.
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<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Mudy,

May I presume yoou have read read Habib's article, which I have put up in full, and my response to it.

The link is there

Jathistory group msg 1603, my response msg 1607

I agree with your assessment of Habib

Ravi
  Reply
#32
quote=mitradena,Nov 4 2005, 02:35 AM]
Quote:They are found in today’s Madhya Pradesh in Mandsor in the 4th /5th century( Yashodharman Virk).

Where is the proof that Yashodharman was a Jat and his clan name was Virk?

Is Virk derived from the Sanskrit Vrka for wolf?
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Response>

Virk is a Jat clan name. Virk Jats are found from West Punjab, down to Madhya Pradesh.

Virk Jats are still found in large numbers in the Mandsor region of today’s Madhya Pradesh . Guru Tegh Bahadur stayed with them when he traveled to that area.

Virk from Vrka, Could be!

We find this as a clan name in the Rig Veda too.

See also:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1533

THE VIRKS OF MANDSOR, MALWA

Malwa was named after the Mall or Mull tribes. These tribes were
republican tribes, and they are famous in the Mahabharata and in the
Buddhist period. At this time this surname e is found in the Jats and
the Brahmins. Alexander knew them as the Mall-oi. According to the
grammatical rules of Katyayana, in the Brahmins the names become
Malvi, and in the Jats Malli or Malhi. The names are derived from
Malav

The Malls were neighbors of Videha and must have migrated to
Kalantar. This land was previously well known as Avanti. Raja
Vikramaditya was born here. Malwa was famous as a rich and fertile
land. As in Punjab and Sind the Jats populated this land of Malwa.
The Jats not only had kingdoms in this rich land full of treasure,
but also formed empires from here. However much historical material
has been lost. What material is there points to a rich and proud
tradition, but is incomplete.


The first four centuries after Christ are shrouded in darkness. and
what is found is not in sequence.

According to the Mahabharata, in Ujjain two kings existed by the name
of Bindu and Anubindu. Their kingdom was ruled jointly by the two
kings. They must have been from two different tribes. Their kingdom
was republican.

In the area that is known as Malwa, we find the clan names Dsharn,
Dashrah, Malvatsya, Kukar, Kunti, Bhoj, Kuntal, Charman, etc Near
Dhar nagar we find Bhoj, and near Mandsor we find Dsharn and Dashrah
people ruling. Today's Mandsor was previously known as DASHPUR or
DASHOR on the banks of the Chambal River, the Charmanvat people ruled
over Champanagari. Vijay Singh Pathik considers the Dasharn to be
formed of ten tribes, though the ancient texts take them to be of one
tribe.

Apart from these tribes, Maurya, Gupta, Andhak, and Pawar clans ruled
this land. These clans were from outside Malwa and ruled here after
displacing their forebears. The Mallii ruled here before them, At
the time of Alexander, the Kshudrak Jats are found to be their
neighbors. Of these tribes/ clans some clan's names are found both
in the Jats and the Rajputs. However Deshpuria, Bhoj, and Kuntal are
found only in the Jats.

The Bangari people of Malwa also ruled here, and a part of Malwa –
Bangar is named after them. This surname is found both in the
Brahmins and the Jats.


VISHNUVARDHAN


The groups who came from outside Malwa did great damage to the
republics of Malwa. The republics (Janpadhs) fought the monarchial
groups hard and long, but were defeated in the end. After many
centuries, the republics having been decimated, the monarchial system
arose. Some great individuals came forward and established kingdoms
and empires. From among the Jats, the names that stand out are
Kaniska, Shalindra or Salindra ,and Yashodharma. Maharaja
Vishnuvardhan was the father of Emperor Yashodharma.

Maharaja Vishnuvardhan is sometimes written as Vishnu-dharma. He was
of the Virk clan (goth). A commemorative victory pillar of his is
fund in Bayana (Uttar Pradesh near Etawah), where he is described as
Varika Vishnuvardhan (see Brijendra vansh Bhaskar for an account of
Bayana. Today Virk of Varik is not very well known, its existence is
known from its place in the ancient long lineage in the history of
the Jat Gotras. [The rise of the Jats and their history p 48]. C.V
Vaidya in his Hindu medieval India writes about Vishnuvardhan as
below:

" The kingdom of Malapo or Malwa belonged to Yashodharma
Vishnuvardhan. of the Mandsor inscription. In our surmise their name
ending Vardhan shows he was a Vaisya like the Guptas. His great
exploit was that he defeated Mihirgula the Hun. Now we have already
quoted from Chandra's grammar " Ajai Jartao Hunahn" i.e. the Jats
conquered the Huns". If we apply this sentence to Yashodharma and
there is none else to whom it can be applied, we may surmise that he
was a Jarta or a Jat from the Punjab. In fact like the Gujars of
Bhinwal we may suppose that the Jats from the Punjab to have migrated
to Malwa (which like Rajputana is a favorite land with migrators) to
take refuge from the invasions of the Huns and these Jats getting
strong under Yashodharman inflicted in 528 AD a signal defeat upon
the Huns who had overrun their motherland the Punjab"


[The author questions Vaidya's surmise that if simply because of the
suffix Vardhan, Vishnuvardhan and all Jats are to be considered of
the Vaishya caste, then should we take Devodas of the Vedic age
also to be a Sudra?


Desraj disagrees with Vaidya's contention about the migrations,
stating that from ancient times the Jat clans of Dasharn and Bhoj are
present, and today they are known as Dasor, Dushpuria, and Bhoju]

In Bayana, which is now in the Kingdom of Bharatpur, is a victory
pillar, which is known as Bhim Ki Lat, or Bhim's stick. From this is
inferred that his empire included Bayana. The author of
the `Brijendra Vansh Bhaskar' informs us the in Samvat 428
Vishnuvardhan Virk performed a Yagna (havan, sacrifice) at this site.
In our opinion this was around in Samvat 528, for in Samvat 586, i.e.
529 AD Yashodharman defeated the Huns.

[ the header of this web site is from Vishnuvardhans's inscription

for the full inscription see:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/files/
vishnuvardhana Virk.doc
Bijaygarh inscription of Vishnuvardhan Virk ]


If the Brijendra vansh Bhaskar date)(SV 428) is taken as correct,
then the time of Vishnuvardhan is between Samvat 400 and Samvat
550, i.e. 150years, and if we accept that Yashodharman was about 80
years old when he defeated the Huns, then Vishnuvardhan rule of 90 –
95 years can be taken as possible.

Cunningham thinks that Pravarsen of Kashmir is dated at 432 AD.
Pravarsen was a contemporary of Yashodharma, because he gave
sanctuary to Yashodharman son Siladitya and seats him on the throne
of Kashmir. If this is taken as correct than we can take the date of
Vishnuvardhan as 371 AD.

However a substantial group of historians id of the view that
Yashodharman defeated the Huns around 529 AD. Then we are reasonable
in taking the date of Yashodharman victory pillar around AD 528.

C. V. Vaidya thinks that these jat kings ruled from about 500 AD to
641 AD, however we think there rule starts from about 340 AD. At that
time state was not as great as that of Yashodharma, but Western Malwa
was certainly in their empire. When the Gupta kings were ruling
Ujjain, these kings governed Mandsor. Out of these one or two kings
may also have been feudatories of the Guptas. Along with the Gupta
kings, we see another dynasty ruling Malwa as well.

SINGHVARMA.

He was a contemporary of Samudragupta. Samudragupta was the foremost,
and most famous king of the Gupta (Dharan) dynasty.

His rule is said to have been between 335 and 385 AD. Singh Varma had
two sons Chandravarma and Narvarma, Chandravarma left Malwa and went
to Puskar in Marwar district of Rajastan and established a kingdom
there. Narvarma stayed and ruled in Malwa. Narvarma had two sons
Banduvarma and Bhimvarma.

The power of the Gupta Empire was in the ascendancy and Banduvarma
accepted the suzerainty of the Gupta rulers of Ujjain. Bhimvarma
accepted the position of governor with Skandgupta Vikramaditya the
son of Kumargupta the first. He was appointed the governor of
Kausambi. The era of Skandgupta is dated 455 Ad to 467 AD.


Forty years after the time of Skandgupta Vikramaditya, in Ujjain we
find Bhanugupta Baladitya on the throne. This is the same Baladitya
who is attached to the Jat emperor Yashodharma, in the latter's
defeat of the Huns.

If after Banduvarma, we join Vishnuvardhan, the dynastical list will
be as follows.


- Singhvarma

- Chandra Varma and Narvarma. (From Singhvarma)

- Vishwavarma (from Narvarma).

- Raghu Varma and Bhimvarma. (From Vishwavarma)

- Vishnuvardhan (from Raghuvarma)

-Yashodharma (from Vishnuvardhan)

- Siladitya from Yashodharma.


Banduvarma, who was the contemporary of Kumar Gupta the First and
Skandagupta, ruled Malwa some 80 years before the victory of
Yashodharma over the Huns. His rule was in Western Malwa i.e. in
Mandsor.

We find an inscription of this time.

The Silk weavers of Mandsor has built a temple to the Sun. This was
damaged due to weather, and Banduvarma had it repaired in 530 Samvat
or 473 AD.

This shows that Banduvarma was present on Mandsor (Daspur) in 473 AD.

Following Banduvarma, Vishnuvardhan erected his victory pillar in
Bayana, which is Bayana was also known as Vijaygarh or Bijaygarh.
(The B and V are interchangeable). They must have gained independence
from the Guptas.

If Banduvarma was not of the family of Vishnuvardhan, and was of one
their enemies, then there would be some reference in their
inscriptions to their having conquered Mandsor.

Soon after having the kingdom from Banduvarma, Vishnuvardhan and
Yashodharma took the titles of Emperor. We are told in (Bharat ke
prachin rajvansh- the ancient ruling Dynasties of India,) that
Yashodharma `s father Vishnuvardhan took the title of Maharjadhiraja -
Emperor or Emperors.


END
  Reply
#33
Ravi, very interesting piece.... thanks. I guess that should clear this up.

vinod

<!--QuoteBegin-Ravi Chaudhary+Nov 4 2005, 03:42 AM-->QUOTE(Ravi Chaudhary @ Nov 4 2005, 03:42 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->quote=mitradena,Nov 4 2005, 02:35 AM]
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->They are found in today’s Madhya Pradesh in Mandsor in the 4th /5th century( Yashodharman Virk).
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Where is the proof that Yashodharman was a Jat and his clan name was Virk?

Is Virk derived from the Sanskrit Vrka for wolf?
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Response>

Virk is a Jat clan name. Virk Jats are found from West Punjab, down to Madhya Pradesh.

Virk Jats are still found in large numbers in the Mandsor region of today’s Madhya Pradesh . Guru Tegh Bahadur stayed with them when he traveled to that area.

Virk from Vrka, Could be!

We find this as a clan name in the Rig Veda too.

See also:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1533

THE VIRKS OF MANDSOR, MALWA
:
:
:
:
END
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  Reply
#34
William Crooke was a British Civil Servant at the end of the 19th century.

Out of his observations he wrote some books one was “

The North West Provinces of India- 1897, Reprinted 1975- Cosmo Publications, New Delhi

Which was a compendium of his observations on Indian society.

His observations of society in north India are worth noting.

As can be seen, in then Haryana (Haryana, Punjab, Western UP,) the Jat Khap system with its Panchayati Raj stayed intact, despite all the turmoil of the past thousand years, and it could not be destroyed by the British, the Muslim or the feudal Rajput.

The British interest was revenue generation. To further this they confirmed the rights of the petty landlord, the Rajput Thakur, the Talkudar, the Nawab the Raja, and he writes:



“AS THEY ACCEPTED OUR SUPREMACY AND SURRENDERED, WERE CONFIRMED IN THE LORDSHIP OF THEIR ESTATES BY VIRTUE OF SANADS OR TITLE DEEDS, CONFERRED BY THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT.


FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE OPPONENTS OF THIS MEASURE, A BODY OF PEASANT PROPRIETORS WAS MADE OVER, BOUND IN CHAINS TO THE MERCY OF THEIR HEREDITARY OPPRESSORS”



The Provinces of Agra and Oudh, were created after 1857, when Western U.P, was taken away from Haryana, called the province of Agra, and merged with that Oudh (Lucknow).

The forms of the society were different.


In the Oudh province, he found what he called, the land of great landlords and a depressed peasantry. The land being controlled by just three hundred families. This was a feudal system and “at the head of rural society stood the ruling Rajput or Mohammedan families, and beneath them was a mass of tenant farmers with no proprietary rights”.

“The Raja had the right of collecting the Government share of the produce; he governed the foreign policy of the sept; made levies for war or repair of the central fort; he exercised the power of judge deciding disputes among his subjects.”

This process of feudalization took various shapes In some cases grants of waste lands were made to some enterprising soldier or courtier- who was from the first practically independent, and all cultivators settled by him were his villeins, DESTITUTE OF ANY RIGHTS EXCEPT WHAT HE CHOSE GRANT OR COULD BE INDUCED TO SELL.


The Jat republican society was different.

The wonder is that they could not be subdued, and retained their society under the nose of the Muslim power.


Ravi Chaudhary

Some quotes:



“Gaining authority by one or more of these varied modes was developed the Talukdar or overlord, who is such a prominent personage in Oudh politics”

“The Talukdars, as they accepted our supremacy and surrendered, were confirmed in the lordship of their estates by virtue of Sanads or title deeds, conferred by the British Government.


FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE OPPONENTS OF THIS MEASURE, A BODY OF PEASANT PROPRIETORS WAS MADE OVER, BOUND IN CHAINS TO THE MERCY OF THEIR HEREDITARY OPPRESSORS.”

“ they comprise the old feudal chiefs, mostly Rajputs, some of whom have embraced Islam; mushroom Talukdars, generally officials of the Oudh Court ; lastly, loyal grantees, mostly Panjabis, who were granted estates by our Government in consideration of Mutiny services”

In contrast, this he has to say about the Jats of Western U.P

“THE JATS-

Let us turn from this picture to the most instructive example of a peasant proprietary. We have the subdivision of Kosi, on the western bank. Of the Jumna, in the Mathura district, where fifty-five per cent of the cultivated area is held by JATS; except a few resident shopkeepers and menial servants here every one is to some extent a proprietor.

The revenue is realized by the headmen, and in the whole tract there is not a single land-holder of any social position.

Here we find a distinctly low level of social life. The land is held by a mass of peasants, devoted to a career of rather sordid drudgery there are none of those amenities which we are prone to associate with civilization.

There is no man head and shoulders above his neighbors; no Talukdar, with his showy equipages, his ill-devised rambling house, adorned with European furniture and gaudy French pictures, no half-educated swashbuckler, who frequents cities and loves to attend Darbars; no horde of tawdry menials.


On the other hand, the wealth derived from the soil is more evenly distributed. There is a more general average of comfort, less grinding poverty; steady, laborious industry is devoted to agriculture in a land where the seasons are less propitious and the fields of less abundant fertility.

But the race is more manly and robust, the tone of daily life more free, honest and self-reliant. And when times grow hard, the heavens withhold the rain, the hail sweeps over the ripening fields, the Jat somehow manages to brave the storm of trouble, while the Oudh serf sinks into beggary.


It has been the habit to speak of these village communities as if they were the ideal form of land tenure. And indeed when we compare them with the serfage of Oudh they have much to recommend them.


The great advantage of this form of tenure is that the income is not spent to humour the extravagance of some magnate, who has no capital to spend on developing the resources of the country and no real desire to aid in the improvement of the condition of the people. Whatever is gained from the annual harvests is spent in securing the rude comfort of hundreds of industrious households.


The peasant here has a future of prosperity before him; the petty holding, barren and irresponsive to his labour though it may be, is yet his own. If he can save he devotes his capital to widening the bounds of his heritage. He will endure a life of ceaseless labour and the most grinding economy if he can add but one rood to his birthright. He will sink the savings of years in building a well which is the only form of stable improvement in which he has confidence.

He is learned in the tending of cattle; he loves the great white cow and his pair of sleek oxen as if they were his children and he will starve himself rather than that they should lack their daily provender. In almost every farm is the brood mare whose produce he sells year by year at a profit. Drought may wither the crops, famine and disease may ravage the household: war may destroy the accumulations of generations, and the fields may lie barren for a season. But when the storm of calamity blows over the yeoman returns to his homestead and starts afresh his meager farm supported by the help and sympathy of his brethren.

The best example of this recuperative power of the peasant classes is shown in Colonel Baird Smith's celebrated Report on the famine of 1860, where he proves that by that time all trace of the disaster of 1837-38 had quite disappeared in the western Doab.

At the same time it would be incorrect to attribute this rapid recovery altogether to the village system. The peasant of the Upper Duab recovered his position so rapidly mainly because his wants were so few and his appliances so limited.

The chief danger to him in time of drought is the loss of his plough cattle. The rain seldom fails for two seasons in succession, and if he can save his oxen or purchase a new team he can easily borrow a small supply of seed grain. Then he at once restores his ruined hut, sets his plough to work, and after a year or two he is nearly as well off as he ever was before.


But it may be said that such local quarrels are equitably settled by the council of greybeards who sit under the old pipal tree, yet it is our law which has sapped the authority of the village council.

Thus, by the gradual influence of our administration and changes in practice tentatively introduced, the bond which held the village community together has been seriously weakened,”
  Reply
#35
I did not pay attention to this before.Ravi Choudhary is an old internet acquaintance with whom i have had my share of skirmishes. A belated welcome to you Ravi.

First there is nothing wrong in having pride in ones tribe or jati. As we rediscover ourselves after years of misinformation, there is bound to be a release of pent up pride. We encourage such threads as Jat History. Pl. do not be judgmental about any group in India. It is all right to state facts but avoid embellishing them with derogatory adjectives (like cowards etc). I have good experiences with Jats and am proud to from the same civilization as they are.Our purpose here is to uncover the truth and some of it might be unpalatable,, but that is OK.
  Reply
#36
<!--QuoteBegin-Kaushal+Nov 23 2005, 11:32 PM-->QUOTE(Kaushal @ Nov 23 2005, 11:32 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I did not pay attention to this before.Ravi Choudhary is an old internet acquaintance with whom i have had my share of skirmishes. A belated welcome to you Ravi.

First there is nothing wrong in having pride in ones tribe or jati. As we rediscover ourselves after years  of misinformation, there is bound to be  a release of pent up pride. We encourage such threads as Jat History. Pl. do not be judgmental about any group in India. It is all right to state facts but avoid embellishing them with derogatory adjectives  (like cowards etc). I have good experiences with Jats and am proud to from the same civilization as they are.Our purpose here is to uncover the truth and some of it might be unpalatable,, but that is OK.
[right][snapback]41891[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->



Response>

Dear Kaushal

Thank for for your welcome. May I presume you are Kaushal Vepa who used to post on Indian Civilization.

I am not entirely sure who to take your post- skirmishes? Perhaps you meant Interaction.

A couple of small points for your reflection- and I make the presumption that you are a moderator/founder of the this group.

I agree with you about years of misinformation.

I am not too sure what you intend to imply by the next comment.

Do not be judgmental?

History is necessarily judgmental- read any history book. The British were this, the Muslims, were that, this group was this and so on and so forth. See also any thread on this group itself.

Any History book or account, is a story, with its perspective, shaped , and influenced by the inherent “Bias” of the author .

This bias, can be conscious or unconscious. It is shaped by one’s education, one’s cultural background, the social/religious groups one belongs to, and a result these conditioning and biases, become part of the very fabric of oneself.

This I suggest no one can escape. Ditto for the adjectives, praiseworthy, derogatory or otherwise. All authors pass judgments, how do you prevent them?

What prompted me to post on this site, were some comments on the Saka Kushan thread, and was less than pleased to see.

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....topic=1030

I have posted some information to correct the perspective being put forward. Hopefully it has educated the poster and other readers. That education is part of the objective of the Yahoo JatHistory group. Other parts of the objective are bring out, and archive material related to the history and culture of the Jats. Our attempts are bring out the material unedited.

A lot of this material will express views, that are contrary to Indian ( Hindu and Muslim), and non Indian historians.

There will also be some rhetoric.

This material, I find, being oft contrarian, does not sit well with groups who have a vested interest in the status quo, and as such is going to be at times unpalatable.

That is something we all have to live with.

We try and keep the group more academic in nature, and its members are a cross section of all communities, from all over the world, including many academics. It is not restricted to Jats.

Its purpose is also to encourage interaction with other groups, debate, and eliminate misconceptions, and disinformation

In this ongoing debate, and quest, all who wish are welcome to join the Yahoo Jathistory group, question the information, debate it, criticize it, add to it.

The URL is

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

Best regards


Ravi Chaudhary
  Reply
#37
A history of the Jat Tomars (1)

Ravi Chaudhary

- source Jat Ithihaas,( Jat History) Mahendra Kumar Shastri, Parmesh Sharma Shastri, Rajpal Singh Shastri, 1991, Madhur Prakashan, Bazar Sitaram, New Delhi 110006)


According to the Mahabharat, Parikshit took the throne of Indraprasta after Yudhistra. His dynasty ruled for 1864 years or 28 generations, the last king Khemkaran was defeated by Vishrawah, who took the throne. His dynasty ruled for 14 generations. It lasted 500 years. The third dynasty ruled for 15 generations. Then Raja Dughsen came to power and his, fourth dynasty came to power, and after nine generations, the last king was Rajpal. This is supported by the Rajatarungani, and by other inscriptions.

This fourth dynasty was uprooted by Raja Vikramaditya Tanwar. (Tomar). He destroyed Indraprasta,( modern Delhi) and shifted the seat of power to Avanti in Ujjain. According to Todd, Vikramaditya, not only destroyed Indraprasta, but also started a new era which is the Vikramaditya era which starts in 57 BCE.

After the destruction of Indraprasta, it became less than a village, with no great prominence on the next 800 years.

In about 800 CE, Anangpal Tomar, following in the footsteps of his ancestor Vikramaditya, reestablished Indraprasta as the seat of his power.

The Tomars renamed Indraprasta as Dhilli or Dilli. Delhi was the center of power for the Tomar dynasty, and stayed that way even after them. In the Delhi area this capital shifted to a number of places, it name may have changed, but the centre of power remained in Dilli.

There is a saying “Dilli was uprooted many times, and it reestablished many times.




The centers of power in the vicinity of Delhi were:

1. Anangpur
2. Surajkund
3. Yoginipur
4. Mahipalpur
5. Mehrauli
6. Lalkot
7. Dillikah
8. Killohkheri
9. Siri
10. Tuglakabad
11. Jahanbad
12. Firozabad
13. Khizrabad
14. Mubarakbad
15. Deenpanah
16. Shergarh
17. Salimgarh
18. Shahjahanabad
19. Lalkila
20. New Delhi

Delhi was given its look by the Tomars, who made it an object of pride by their efforts. Lakes, Temples were inaugurated, and they increased the splendour of Dilli. The ruins of many of these Lakes, Temples, and buildings can still be seen, and give evidence to reality of that age, and legend of the Tomars.

Anangpal Tomar, the First, built in Anangpur, a 289 foot long great Bundh ( a Dam).On two sides were rocky hills, and between them a small river. The river was dammed, with a pucca, sturdy dam, and that is testimony to the engineering skills of the Tomars.

Raja Anangpal Tomar built a fort on the hill on top of the Dam, and signs of that fort can be seen today.

In 1051 CE Anangpal Tomar II became the ruler and established his capital at Lalkot (Red Fort). He removed the iron victory pillar, erected by his ancestor Vikramaditya Tanwar, from the Vishnudutt Hill, and re erected it bin the centre of his capital Lalkot. The pillar is now outside the Kutb Minar in Delhi, and is testimony to the metallurgical skills of the Tomar era.




In Delhi Shakarpur is the ancient Shakarprasta. This city was as famous as the other cities of the Mahabharat- Tilpat (Telprasta), Soonpath (Svarnprasta), Indrapath (Indraprastha).The Tomars built temples, and lakes in these places. The Bhairon Mandir (temple) of Shakarpur is clear evidence of the ancient Mandirs of the Tomars.

The Tomars built the temple of Kaushiki Devi at Okla. She was born here, and she destroyed the rakshasas (demons)

Anangpal Tomar II first made his capital at Dhillkapuri, which is between Yoginipur and Mahipalpur. An account of the beauty of the city of Dhillika is found in the Palam Vavli inscription, and in the inscription on the Iron Pillar. The poet Shridhar in 1132 CE makes reference to the city of Dhillika in his book Parshvanath Charita, (Account of Parshvanath). In those times Dhillika was part of Greater Haryana. Anangpal Tomar constructed the lake of Anangpal (Anangpal sarovar), and decorated Dhillika with palaces and temples.

One great fort was Lalkot (Red Fort). The place of the Raja surrounded the Iron Pillar. Today that city, those temples are no more, all destroyed, yet this Killi ( iron nail/pillar) is testimony to the glory of the Tomars, the descendants of Vikramaditya Tanwar, many centuries after him.

The Raja had this pillar uprooted and reinserted into the ground, and there is an interesting legend of that, for the pillar could not be erected again with the same strong foundation as before.

A saying developed:

“ Killi Jo Dilli Bhaii,
Tomar Nrp Bhayya Mathiheen”


“ The pillar which was taken to Delhi
The Tomar king had lost his senses”

The Bhat (bard) of Prithbviraj Chauhan Jagnik repeats this account. This is the place that later came to be known as Dilli (Hindi) or Delhi (English).

The Iron Pillar or Killi (nail) is 22 feet high and 41/2 feet in circumference. When one sees this pillar one understands what expert metallurgists the craftsmen who made it were. The pillar of beaten iron, indicative of it’s of its decorative forehead, looks auspicious and great. For centuries this pillar had borne the assault of the winds and rain, yet even now not a trace of rust can be found. There are many more such examples, which are hidden in the ruins of Delhi, which bear testimony to the glory of the Tomars.


The first name of Dilli or Delhi was Dhillkapuri.

Deshostith Hariyanakya Prthviyama Svargasanninam”
Dillikavya Tatra Tomarreh-rasisth Nirmitha”

Anangpal Tomar I was the son of Kunwarpal Tomar. Kunwarpal’s father was Jaipal Tomar., whose elder brother Shalakshpal Tomar put him on the throne. At the time of the invasions of Mahmud of Ghazni it was this Raja Shalakshpal who was ruling Mehrauli- Lalkot or Dhillika, and in 1005 CE he handed over the throne to his younger brother Jaipal. Shalakshpal retired towards Samchana (Gurud) in Haryana and took Sanyaas (spiritual retirement). It is this great personage of whom an account is to be rendered. It is he who was the founder of the Desh Khap of 84 villages.

Historians have betrayed the Tomars by restricting their accounts of the Tomars only to the last Raja Anangpal Tomar, whereas there are 26 generations between Anangpal Tomar the 1st and Anangpal Tomar the 2nd.

The dynastical list of the Tomars who sat on the throne of Delhi is as below:
Tomar Ascended the Throne CE
1 Anangpal 736
2 Vasudev 754
3 Gang 773
4 Prithvimal 764
5 Jaidev 814
6 Virpal 839
7 Adhereh 849
8 Vijay 875
9 Anek 876
10 Rikshpal 919
11 Sukhpal 940
12 Gopal 961
13 Salakshpal 976
14 Jaipal 1005
15 Kunwarpal 1021
16 Anangpal 2nd 1051
17 Vijaypal 1081
18 Mahipal* 1105 Founded th city of Mahipalpur
and built a Shiv Temple.

19 Arkpal ( Anangpal3rd) 1130
20 Vahardpal Dev’s
Son ascended 1190
21 Tejpal 1162 ( ruled for 15 days. He was defeated
and killed by Kutubudin Aibak.)



Arkpal Tomar, also known as Anangpal the thirds was the last ruler of this dynasty. He ascended the throne in 1130 CE. He had no sons. He had two daughters. The elder Balm was married to Raja Vijaychand of Kannauj, who had a son borne to him -Raja Jaichand Rathor.

The other daughter Kamla was married to the son of Raja Someshwar of Ajmer, who was borne a son Prithviraj Chauhan. It was this Prithviraj Chauhan who was seated on the throne of Delhi after Anangpal Tomar the third or Arkpal Tomar.

Historians err in considering the Delhi Tomars to be Rajputs. Nowhere in the Rajput groups do we find the sons of the daughters taking over the inheritance.

Our concern here is now with Salakshpal Tomar who loved seven generations before Anangpal Tomar the third, and abdicating his throne, in favor of his younger brother.

The descendants of Salakshpal Tomar even toady, are to be found living in Desh republic, near modern Baraut, proud of their royal lineage and that they are Jats. This Khap is also known as Salakyan Tomars. His other brother Salakshpal gave his name to 84 villages of Kalashlayan Gujars, and those Jats have joined the Gujar stream.
  Reply
#38
having read this thread and having gotten a whiff of ravi chaudhury's views on 'jats,' i am in strong disagreement with all here who have tried to label him a firebrand casteist (his nasal index theory notwithstanding - raviji, i read a passing comment here about your nasal index theory and jats: is this theory ascribable to you? if so, could you elaborate/link? tia). i do not think ethnic pride, a thing to be cherished, really trangsgresses into ethnic chauvinism here (as many have feared) for i believe raviji puts forth cogent arguments and his theory/history of the jats is quite inclusive. but i think he has, other than for harshavardhana, forgotten to include some prominent (and obviously jat) figures of our history in his 'ethnically jat' subset:

1) chandragupta maurya,
2) kautilya/chanakya,
3) iskander aka alexander,
4) swami vivekananda,
5) mahatma gandhi,
6) chhatrapati shivaji,
7) netaji subhash chandra bose,
8) sachin tendulkar,
9) madam bhikaji cama
10) john lennon,
11) bruce springsteen...

...and a few others. i trust this shouldn't be difficult to accomplish in the near future with deeper forays into linguistic archaeology as dahiya, ex-IAS, RCPS, panipat, BDMNOP, EFG, QLMNOP, PhDP (whose name raviji wisely forwarded as that of a historian of repute to counter opinions of dilettantes like some airavat singh upthread), meticulously engages in to unravel the origins of the jat clans. dahiya argues that the caspian sea was once called the sea of gillian. thus gills were a jat clan hailing from that area. thus irish/brit gillens were jats. similarly, thomas mann, like gurdas mann, was also jat - both hailing from the same bhillage near caspian sea.
  Reply
#39
Ravi Choudhary is a respected name as far as jat history is concerned.

Contrary to the likes of Airavat Singh who could see jats only in mughal times,he reasons and tries to dispel the myths created and propogated over years.

Some times he may be wrong in his accessment as most of us can be but he is head and shoulders above than other fiction writers called historians.

Chandergupt marya was a jatt,do you find some evidence suggesting otherwise.

Alexander paternal genetics is related to jats ,sorry it is not claimed by jats but visit any Romanian history site and you will find all about it.

Jats never claimed about jatt ancesstory of greats like ghandhi,tendulakar,madam cama and others pls note that.

Pls post some comments on my post about this tendency of overlooking or downgrading jatt past and reasons given by me for why were they the inhabitants of indus valley civilization which I wrongly posted in marathi history thread.

I expect Dhu Acharya Hauma Ben ami and other senior respected members to look in to this aspect and point out where I went wrong in my reasoning.
  Reply
#40
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ravi Choudhary is a respected name as far as jat history is concerned.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

so you think. i personally am not inclined to believe this from his posts/views in this thread and the other shaka-kushana thread. however, i reserve the right to contradict myself if proved otherwise (wow..never knew i could construct such lucid sentences).

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Contrary to the likes of Airavat Singh who could see jats only in mughal times,he reasons and tries to dispel the myths created and propogated over years.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

maybe. i was comparing airavat with dahiya not ravi. re-read my post.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Some times he may be wrong in his accessment  as most of us can be but he is head and shoulders above than other fiction writers called historians.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i'll gloss over this one. calm down.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Chandergupt marya was a jatt,do you find some evidence suggesting otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

lol. if the jat ethnic genealogy and history was so carefully or meticulously documented as your proposition forebodes it is, i would never have turned around to ask you - well, how do you know if he was ever a 'jatt?' i've read the wikipedia article on chandragupta maurya. if you're still interested in learning why i think his origins are still unclear, i'd recommend you start a thread putting forth your arguments to the effect why you think he is a 'jatt' instead of expressing surprise at how the world could be any different.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Alexander paternal genetics is related to jats ,sorry it is not claimed by jats but visit any Romanian history site and you will find all about it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

pass. *ok can't resist.* even if this were true it does not prove that alexander was a jat. in this post it is successfully argued that modern archaeogenetics and genetic studies '... imply that East Europeans are closer to upper caste Indians than they are to West Europeans!'

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Jats never claimed about  jatt ancesstory of greats like ghandhi,tendulakar,madam cama and others pls note that.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

being a jat, i claim they were jats. i'll prove this too very shortly (even if i can't, i can still continue to claim them). you wait. you just wait. just wait (note: ravi has claimed my ancestors as being jat in another thread and i'm forced to accept this to avoid a paradox from emerging here).

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pls post some comments on my post about this tendency of overlooking or downgrading jatt past and  reasons given by me  for why were they the inhabitants of indus valley civilization which I wrongly posted in marathi history thread.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

seriously, i have no clue about jats being the original inhabitants of IVC. i'm inclined to go with all the terms Dhu has used to refer to such people (from his readings) and if he has ever called them jat then they must be jat. remind me to send him a pm enquiring about what else 'jat' connotes to - i <b>must </b>rid myself of this prejudice of taking Dhu's word to be the gospel truth and ravi's word as trite.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->where I went wrong in my reasoning.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

look above.
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