<!--QuoteBegin-ashyam+Mar 20 2006, 10:43 AM-->QUOTE(ashyam @ Mar 20 2006, 10:43 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Mar 20 2006, 03:26 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ben_ami @ Mar 20 2006, 03:26 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
its neither fiction nor delusion that half the greatest people in almost all walks of life were/are born abongst the jews.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would not accept this race theory. Something peculiar in Europe against Jews caused them to be very inquisitive and resulted in their successes.
There were many Jews in India and I have not heard anything outstanding about them. They were like other ordinary Indians.
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yes, the constant stick that they received from europeans for 20 centuries is one of 4 reasons why jews are so smart. you are also right in pointing out that the indian jews are as common as any other, infact all non-ashkenazi jews are.
you are wrong though if you think that the jews have excelled and made a mark only ever since they went to europe as refugees - read history, their have been great people from amongst jews, during egyptians, sumerians, persians, romans et al.
<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Mar 21 2006, 05:20 AM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Mar 21 2006, 05:20 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->you are wrong though if you think that the jews have excelled and made a mark only ever since they went to europe as refugees - read history, their have been great people from amongst jews, during egyptians, sumerians, persians, romans et al.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you expect when you read history written by, who else, jews that focus on middle east as the craddle of civilization.
LMAO
but that jews had a prime minister in egypt is confirmed by EGYPTIAN SOURCES.
that ESTHER was a jew married to a persian prince is confirmed by PERSIAN SOURCES.
that sumeria is as old as egypt, indus valley and china is confirmed by radio carbon dating.
that they have 150+ nobel laureates is confirmed by a quick google.
that the art, literature etc of most western and semetic countries, ever since Christ, has been influenced by judaism, is confirmed by reading up the right books.
That most of the scholars in Bahdad's chaliphate were jews is also confirmed by arabic sources.
also besides most of the history is NOT written by jews at all.
How many of nobel prize winning Jews are from Middle-east? Middle-east is the homeland of the Jews and you will see their names coming up many times in their history. Nothing special about it.
Jews were treated differently in Christian Europe as killers of Christ. This sense of insecurity made them aware of networking among themselves and always to be one step ahead of rest of the society in which they were living. This would also explain why they were not so succesful in places like India.
Jews are nonentities. If you look at the history of the
development of languages, writing, linguistics, earliest religious
literature, the great epics, plays, drama, yoga, mathematics,
astronomy, astrology, medicine, surgery, sexology, music, dance,
art, archtecture, the great philosophical systems, legal
works, statecraft, metallurgy, invention of gunpowder, printing
and countless other things that have led up to the modern world
civilization of today - people and nations that figure in are India,
Egypt, China, Greece and Rome, primarily. The Middle East is a
zero with the exception of Egypt.
There are any number of books that show that the Old Testament
is nothing but a collection of stolen material from the literatures
of nations where Jews were slaves.
Any thoughtful and intelligent person who reads the Old Testament
will come away disgusted. Judaism is too crude, too primitive and too
gross. That's why some people - who had never even visited the Middle
East - created what's called Christianity in Rome to replace Judaism.
And they wrote the New Testament in Greek by hijacking much of
their "New" material from Hindu-Buddhist literature. If you take away
what's from India, the New Testament would be just as crude,
primitive and gross as the Old Testament. Christianity would never
have come into existence.
How many of nobel prize winning Jews are from Middle-east?
not many. nobel prize started in 1900, by which time the middle east was the last place where you could find jews!! but there have been quite a few sabra laureates of late.
Middle-east is the homeland of the Jews and you will see their names coming up many times in their history. Nothing special about it.
to go into the cultures of other countries and hold top positions is VERY special. there was even one in india - during the bangladesh war the chief of staff of Arora, who was in charge of the Eastern side, was a jew called Jacob.
Jews were treated differently in Christian Europe as killers of Christ.
yes, as also non-europeans.
This sense of insecurity made them aware of networking among themselves and always to be one step ahead of rest of the society in which they were living. This would also explain why they were not so succesful in places like India.
i know about that. thats one of 4 reasons why they are so successful - their eagerness to keep ahead of society.
Jews are nonentities.
at a mere 5 nobel laureates, you know where indians finish on that scale (the one which puts jews - 150+ - as non-entities)
If you look at the history of the
development of languages,
hebrew is the only other language apart from sanskrit, that is phonetically sound enough to produce the right patterns on a tonoscope
writing, linguistics,
some of the greatest writers ever are jews.
earliest religious literature,
for a small tribe, (as different from a populous civilization), they have produced quite a bit of top quality literature, though some of it was indeed plagiarised from Sumerian and Chaldean cultures.
the great epics,
only flourishing civilizations have produced epics. there are only 4 to wit in the whole world. if writting epics becomes the sole crieteria, then the inca, maya, aztec, persian, roman civilizations are all non-entities !!
plays, drama,
given that they have not had a land even to their name since 2000 years, you dont expect them to write plays. but they have even done a lot of that, only not very ancient ones. this years nobel winner for literature is also a jewish playwright.
yoga,
yoga???
how much have indians contributed to lets say unini system of medicine (as an example of something that isnt indian at all)
mathematics,
omg...... without jews we would not have math and physics as we know it now. indians are non-entities here.
astronomy,
again, classical astronomy is a product of florishing civilizations, not a wandering tribe of people without a land to their name. still they have done a lot in modern astronomy as well if that helps.
astrology,
a highly doubious subject. indians reign supreme here!!
medicine, surgery, sexology,
name the father of genetics will ya??
classical/ancient medicine - not much, but lok at their contribution in medicine for the last 500 years or so.
music, dance, art,
you are either a philistine or lived in mars all along to suggest that jews havent contributed more than their fair share in music, art and dance.
again, given that they are only about 20 million people, and homeless and on the wrong end of pogroms for the most part of their existance, we should let them off the hook for not producing composers and painters during the middle ages.
archtecture,
not possible for a homeless people to have archetecture.
but still, if it helps, in the 20th century, some of the greatest archetects on both sides of the second world war, were jews.
the great philosophical systems,
again, the product of a civilization, not a 20 million odd wondering tribe. still for what its worth the rabbinical traditions have produced considerable wisdom.
legal works,
top lawyers in usa today, & in zurich and vienna in middle ages, etc etc were almost invariably jews. remember most of western law is based on OT traditions and draws heavily from the jewish habit of trying to regulate society.
statecraft,
woops....ever since joshua (if i remember right) became prime minister of egypt, to benjamin d'israeli, who was prime minister of england, to some of the top diplomats on either side of the cold war, to the one and only david ben gurion.
metallurgy,
you included every trade you know of did u??
invention of gunpowder,
the latest automatic gun that shoots round corners was invented by a florida based american jew.
printing
and countless other things that have led up to the modern world
civilization of today - people and nations that figure in are India,
Egypt, China, Greece and Rome, primarily. The Middle East is a
zero with the exception of Egypt.
india last figured in 1100 a.d.
china to at similar times.
rome scores most highly - you cant imagine how many things in the modern world go back to romans - who if Dhu is to be believed, are a quarted semetic by genetic stock.
and i sincerely hope that you have heard of Sumeria, Chaldea and Mesopotamea and the twin rivers of Tigris and Euphrates that gave rise to them.
There are any number of books that show that the Old Testament
is nothing but a collection of stolen material from the literatures
of nations where Jews were slaves.
the law of moses and their flood myth (Gilgamesh) and 6 day creation concept (Enuma Elish) are all plagiarised yes. yet, even discounting that, you cant just write off all the advice dispensed in the jewish religious works.
Any thoughtful and intelligent person who reads the Old Testament
will come away disgusted.
true. the OT is tribal history at best - and very guresome at that.
BUT THAT WAS THE CRUX OF MY QUESTION - THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE THE MOTHER OFF ALL ERRORS AND HAVE COME UP WITH LAWS WHICH COULD PUT THE SHARIAT TO SHAME, SEEM TO HAVE 8/10 GOD GIFTED PEOPLE BORN AMONGST THEM AND HAVE ALWAYS WIELDED AN INFLUENCE OVER WORLD AFFAIRS FAR IN DISPROPORTION TO THEIR LIMITED NUMBERS. HOW SO?
Judaism is too crude, too primitive and too
gross.
judaic law yes. the judaic way (ie. prophetism) of trying to convince people to adopt their way of life, yes.
not all of judaism though. quite a few valid points are made in the books of the greater judaic traditions.
That's why some people - who had never even visited the Middle
East - created what's called Christianity in Rome to replace Judaism.
judaism was never present much in Rome !!!
where did you pull this one off from???
before being christians, the romans were followers of Mithraism.
and Christianity was created by Saul/paul/shaul
And they wrote the New Testament in Greek by hijacking much of
their "New" material from Hindu-Buddhist literature.
as also other literature. none of the apostoles were particularly wise people.
If you take away
what's from India, the New Testament would be just as crude,
primitive and gross as the Old Testament. Christianity would never
have come into existence.
if the roman king (i forgot his name) in his search for a new religion had not taken a liking for christianity, then there would be no christianity yes.
but this thread has little to do with christianity or christians.
nor did i ever try to defend the crudeness and ruthlessness (not to mention the absurdity) of Prophetic Ot.
<b>if you had read my OP correctly, my question was about the people Jews and how they can be so remarkable, despite living their lives along the lines of such a macabre book, despite being only 20 million strong (at their maximum) and despite often living in such trying circumstances and thats for 2000+ years</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Mar 21 2006, 05:14 AM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Mar 21 2006, 05:14 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
there are only 2 great religions in the world - and buddhism isnt one of them.
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What are the two great religions, and what makes them great ?
The Jewish homeland Israel is kind of like Pakistan.
Lives on large foreign aid. No aid, no Jews. End of
story.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sunder+Mar 21 2006, 01:22 PM-->QUOTE(Sunder @ Mar 21 2006, 01:22 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Mar 21 2006, 05:14 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ben_ami @ Mar 21 2006, 05:14 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
there are only 2 great religions in the world - and buddhism isnt one of them.
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What are the two great religions, and what makes them great ?
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hinduism and judaism.
the archtypes of the "bell curve" (or democratic) and the "formula" (or dictatorial) religions.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rash+Mar 21 2006, 01:32 PM-->QUOTE(Rash @ Mar 21 2006, 01:32 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Jewish homeland Israel is kind of like Pakistan.
Lives on large foreign aid. No aid, no Jews. End of
story.
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man!!!
you are sooo damned ill-informed that you are a complete waste of time. or you are a complete spoilt sport who doesnt know how to give others their dues.
the foreign aid comes from usa, which is totally in jewish hands in any case. the rest comes from remittances from wealthy jews and from some european countries who still suffer from the guilt of the holocaust.
there is no other community in the would who are richer than the jews.
btw, the jewish homeland israel is like a sort of india (not pakistam) - a land where its rightful owners got back the reins of power at approximately the same time (1946-1947) after many many years.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rash+Mar 21 2006, 01:32 PM-->QUOTE(Rash @ Mar 21 2006, 01:32 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->No aid, no Jews. End of
story.
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no jews, no world as we know it.
the real story !!
my question is "HOW COME? WHAT GIVES?"
<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Mar 21 2006, 12:14 PM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Mar 21 2006, 12:14 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->How many of nobel prize winning Jews are from Middle-east?
not many. nobel prize started in 1900, by which time the middle east was the last place where you could find jews!! but there have been quite a few sabra laureates of late.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There still are many Jews in middle-east, even now in Iraq, Iran Morocco etc. but they live like normal people.
Why do you take nobel prize as a metric to measure talent? Nobel prize use western scales to decide if it is to be offered to a person. That is why you don't see many people outside western world receiving it. People like Dalai Lama, Suu Kyi were offerred for political purposes. No nobel for Gandhi because he fought against west, doesn't that sound like a joke? You don't see many Japanese or Russians among the nobel winners.
And Jews were living in western world for 2000 years and they understand western thinking and naturally become nobel winners compared to many other people. When western world was developing most of the jews were there and they also naturally happened to be winners along with them. Unfortunately there weren't many Indians and Chinese in Europe at that time and you don't see their name among contributors.
But today, within a span of less than 50 years, you see a lot of succesful Indians in US. Give them 100 more years, you might see them to be more worthwhile than Jews. Do you want to check? Look at what is happening in diamond trade at Antwerp, Belgium, which once was an exclusive domain of Jews. If you don't see other people in your list of successful people, it is just because they did not have the same opportunity as those in your list.
I don't have any animosity against Jews, rather I respect their abilities and successes and believe that India and Hindus can learn a lot from them to be succesful in this modern world. However, I can't tolerate when people try to create an aura around them.
There still are many Jews in middle-east, even now in Iraq, Iran Morocco etc. but they live like normal people.
even nobel laureates are normal people.
Why do you take nobel prize as a metric to measure talent?
what should i take?? intelligence??
tellme whats comon to feynman, schwinger, gellmann, oppenheimer and einstein??
Nobel prize use western scales to decide if it has to be offered to a person.
grapes are sour.
That is why you don't see many people outside western world receiving it.
many people from outside western world have not done much in physics, medicine, chemistry or economics in the last 100 years.
People like Dalai Lama, Suu Kyi were offerred for political purposes.
as were most peace prize winners.
No nobel for Gandhi because he fought against west,
gandhi NEVER fought againstthe west.
doesn't that sound like a joke?
yes, Gandhi and his ahimsha always sounded like a big joke to me.
You don't see many Japanese or Russians among the nobel winners.
says who??
And Jews were living in western world for 2000 years and they understand western thinking and naturally become nobel winners compared to many other people.
really??? so what prevents the africans?? what prevents the indians and chinese?
When western world was developing most of the jews were there and they also naturally happened to be winners along with others. Unfortunately there weren't many Indians and Chinese in Europe at that time and you don't see their name among contributors.
nice excuse.
But today, within a span of less than 50 years, you see a lot of succesful Indians in US. Give them 100 more years, you might see them to be more worthwhile than Jews.
yes, we are a billion strong. there are only 10 million jews in the world now.
Do you want to check? Look at what is happening in diamond trade at Antwerp, Belgium, which once was an exclusive domain of Jews.
dont prove anything just because Gujus have taken antwerp from jews.
whats common to michael Bloomberg, Ross Perot, Michael Dell, George Soros, Nikky Oppenheimer etc?
If you don't see other people in your list of successful people, it is just because they did not have the same opportunity as those in your list.
jews have always delivered, oppertunity or no oppertunity.
I don't have any animosity against Jews, rather I respect their abilities and successes and believe that India and Hindus can learn a lot from them to be succesful in this modern world. However, I can't tolerate when people try to create an aura around them.
no one's trying to create an aura. its there already. we yap no end with our 5 or so nobels, we yap no end cos we have software engineers and nasa scientists - wonder what sort of aura we would have whipped up, if we had as many top guys as they do.
whats common to gary kasparov & bobby fischer ??
I admit I don't know how Nobels are awarded. Poster #1
has been ranting about it a lot. Most Nobelists are ordinary
people. They are practically all from Western countries. These
days, they do some lab work or some such thing, and keep
looking through their microscopes, and then an announcement
is made they found something big. They get nominated.
Nomination from others in the field is the key. Without that
there is no possibility of getting the prize. There are more
people looking through microscopes in Western countries.
The institutions where they work and other affiliated universities
and so on know how to play this game. And get the prizes to
their candidates.
Except in a few exceptional cases, the whole process is more
contrived than anything else. In general, the Nobel prize has
no more value than a run of the mill doctoral dissertation except
for the prize money. I really don't know anything about Jews much
less how they became involved in this racket.
So if you look at the Nobel prize as a big deal you are not
very smart. If you are not from a Western country don't
even bother about it. It is not indicative of anything except
in a very few special cases.
The ranter and raver has no answer why no one in Israel
has received this largely meaningless recognition where
Jews live and Israel has been in existence for some
sixty years or so I guess. The ranter and raver should also
explain why Jews don't look like Ethiopians which is how
they looked in Biblical times.
You also wonder why with all these Nobel prize winners
living on every street, hitech Western companies want more
and more highly skilled professionals from other countries.
<b>
I admit I don't know how Nobels are awarded.</b> Poster #1
has been ranting about it a lot. Most Nobelists are ordinary
people.
really??
They are practically all from Western countries. These
days, they do some lab work or some such thing, and keep
looking through their microscopes, and then an announcement
is made they found some thing big. They get nominated.
Nomination from others in the field is the key.
i thought you knew nothing about nobel prizes (which you confirm in this innane post)
Without that there is no possibility of getting the prize. There are more
people looking through microscopes in Western countries.
for your info, most nobel prizes in phsics go to theorists.
in economics there is no microscope involved.
The institutions where they work and other affiliated universities
and so on know how to play this game. And get the prizes to
their candidates.
Except in a few exceptional cases, the whole process is more
contrived than anything else. In general, the Nobel prize has
no more value than a run of the mill doctoral dissertation except
for the prize money.
fantastic.
so tell me about amarthya sen and steven weinberg's contributions.
I really don't know anything about Jews much
less how they became involved in this racket.
i agree with youy there. there's not much you know about jews and even less about the nobel prize "racket"
So if you look at the Nobel prize as a big deal you are not
very smart.
who are you?? whitten?? only the likes of him can say that and get away with it !!
If you are not from a Western country don't
even bother about it. It is not indicative of anything except
in a very few special cases.
really??
The ranter and raver has no answer why no one in Israel
has received this largely meaningless recognition where
Jews live and Israel has been in existence for some
sixty years or so I guess.
lots of israelis HAVE recieved it in fact !!
The ranter and raver should also
explain why Jews don't look like Ethiopians which is how
they looked in Biblical times.
they never quite looked like ethiopians, but more like arabs. and that they dont look like middle easterners anymore, at least the ashkanazi dont anymore, is the 2nd reason who they are so damned smart in all things intellectual.
You also wonder why with all these Nobel prize winners
living on every street, hitech Western companies want more
and more highly skilled professionals from other countries.
to get the donkey work done for lesser money.
<b>
its best you wash your hands off this thread, at least the nobel prize bit of it. we have had too many insane posts from you already.</b>
The only people I have heard being described as smart are the
Japanese. Not Jews. You don't even hear that anymore because
their economy is no longer so hot.
03-21-2006, 05:52 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-21-2006, 06:12 PM by Bharatvarsh.)
lol even Yasser Arafat got a Nobel peace prize, big deal, by those standards Gandhi was much more deserving of one but he never got it, atleast he wasn't launching intifadas like Arafat.
03-21-2006, 06:21 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-21-2006, 06:22 PM by narayanan.)
I wish the informed people on this thread would take a break from self-admiration (give those poor mirrors a respite, pls) and consider a much more troubling question:
<b> DO you see the similarity between the hate campaigns conducted against Jewish people in Europe, and the current hate campaign against "Brahmins" in India and the West?</b>
The stereotypes are all there. In India, the pogroms have long since started against Brahmins. Now it has started in full-swing in the US too.
BTW, for what it's worth, I am neither Brahmin nor Jewish. I think the above question is of intense interest to India and desis in America. Need to catalog the forces, their flunkies, and what to do to counter the attacks. The example set by Israeli-Americans is perhaps extremely relevant.
ok here's an attempt to answer my own question.
question was "how come the jews always excel at all things intellectual despite having such a lunatic basis for their ruthless religion ??"
firstly about judaism - not that you need telling, but here goes.
most of the original books and stories of Judaism is plagiarised. They took their 6 day creation story from the Enuma Elish of the Sumer and the flood myth sroty from the Gilgamesh. some of the "wisdom" of the OT is also similarly lifted from middle eastern cultures from the Tigris-Euphretes belt to the Nile (as also the Iranians who once ruled modern day iraq as well).
OT is tribal history and the god of OT does precisely what it takes to convince tribal people - wage war, kill, loot, plunder and MAKE MIRACLES happen and MAKE PROPHESIES (the word prophet comes from that - someone who makes prophesies).
if Koenraad Elst's book "a secular look at the bible" is to be believed, then most of the prophets were delusional men with or without schizophrenia. So how come a satellite culture of the Chaldeans can wield so much influence over the whole world for so long??
thats a a difficult question to answer but here are 4 reasons (there could be more) which surely are major factors.
1) GENETICS - genetics tells us that when ever there is a blood mixing, especially between two traditional intelligent peoples, we often get a few extremely smart persons. The blond and often blue eyed askhenaxi are a very god examples of this. the vast majority of jews who are at the top of their professions are ashkenazi. the present day jews have the blood of pretty much everyone - from civilizations like iraqis and egyptians, iranians and romans to progressive societies (those that have contributed to scientific progress in the last 300 years or so) like the germanics, the Rus, the slavs and celtics.
2) CIRCUMSTANCE - jews have been unlucky enough to be at the receiving end of stick ever since day one from the hellenics, romans, iranians, and then in various european countries and finally in Nazi hands. They have also been lucky enough to be parts of very flourishing empires and cities (for example, at the height of Bagdhad's glory there were lots of jews in the Chaliphate, and some very scholarly. Similarly in top european cities like Zurich and Vienna, jews were present in great numbers at those times when the cities were going through periods of great prosperity. and they were also there in Germany when germany made a metioric rise since its founding in 1870). Now both these conditions - when a tiger chases you or when you are born into a very intellectually conducive ambience - often brings out the best in people. some of the greatest jews are german jews and jews from top cities in europe like Vienna and Zurich.
3) LACK OF OPTIONS - since europeans often treated jews and 2nd and 4rd class citizens jews werent allowed to join public office and normal work. So they were forced to go for jobs like money lender or performning arts (music, drama) and craftsman's jobs.
The vice like jewish grip on banking and international finance (just to make it clear, the previous and present chairman of the US federal reserve allan greenspan and ben shalom bernanke, as also the presend and previous chairman of the world bank, paul wolfowitz and wolfhenson are all jews) comes from thie foundation stone of money lending.
The jewish monopoly on Hollywood and most other Arts based business comes from this.
and the jewish streak of excellence in business comes from the small time baker or cobblers shops that they were once forced to run.
the jews are damn good, collectively as a people, at making the best out of any situation and turning the table on circumstance. the other reason is that the constant life of peril and pogrom that they lived in europe made it very clear to them that in times of extreme crisis, one of man's best friend is money. Those who have read "Exodus" by Leon Uris, need no telling about how people like Rothschield and De Schumann managed to influence things jesu before th holocaust.
4) PSYCHIATRY - jews have been told that they are gods chosen people. from day one a jew grows up knowing that he is a special guy, that the world revolves around their people, that they were chosen by god. Any psychologist will tell you that this helps a lot and people who have been told very early in life that they are special kids always have aspirations which are far beyond normal. more of then than not these kinds of people have super ego and are megalomaniacs. they go for and often succed in pulling off very difficult things. the clasic example is Frank Loyyd Wright - who's mother believed with her heart and soul that her son was the incarnate of the irish god Teliesin and used to call him (frank loyyd wright) by as much. he grew up knowing he was god incarnate, and became one of the greatest archetects of all time.
there are other reasons - for example most jews have a relative or two who is very emminent or rich (or both) in some or the other walk of life. and thats also another reason that they have top ambitions and aspirations. the people that the jews try to emulate are more often than not very emminent and erudite.
your takes?
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