Jews

03-23-2006, 02:14 PM

and just so you know how many emminent people jews have produced, you could have a look here (specially at the nobel laureate section)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jews

03-23-2006, 03:51 PM

QUOTEok here's an attempt to answer my own question.

question was "how come the jews always excel at all things intellectual despite having such a lunatic basis for their ruthless religion ??"

firstly about judaism - not that you need telling, but here goes.

most of the original books and stories of Judaism is plagiarised. They took their 6 day creation story from the Enuma Elish of the Sumer and the flood myth sroty from the Gilgamesh. some of the "wisdom" of the OT is also similarly lifted from middle eastern cultures from the Tigris-Euphretes belt to the Nile (as also the Iranians who once ruled modern day iraq as well).

OT is tribal history and the god of OT does precisely what it takes to convince tribal people - wage war, kill, loot, plunder and MAKE MIRACLES happen and MAKE PROPHESIES (the word prophet comes from that - someone who makes prophesies).

if Koenraad Elst's book "a secular look at the bible" is to be believed, then most of the prophets were delusional men with or without schizophrenia. So how come a satellite culture of the Chaldeans can wield so much influence over the whole world for so long??

thats a a difficult question to answer but here are 4 reasons (there could be more) which surely are major factors.

1) GENETICS - genetics tells us that when ever there is a blood mixing, especially between two traditional intelligent peoples, we often get a few extremely smart persons. The blond and often blue eyed askhenaxi are a very god examples of this. the vast majority of jews who are at the top of their professions are ashkenazi. the present day jews have the blood of pretty much everyone - from civilizations like iraqis and egyptians, iranians and romans to progressive societies (those that have contributed to scientific progress in the last 300 years or so) like the germanics, the Rus, the slavs and celtics.

2) CIRCUMSTANCE - jews have been unlucky enough to be at the receiving end of stick ever since day one from the hellenics, romans, iranians, and then in various european countries and finally in Nazi hands. They have also been lucky enough to be parts of very flourishing empires and cities (for example, at the height of Bagdhad's glory there were lots of jews in the Chaliphate, and some very scholarly. Similarly in top european cities like Zurich and Vienna, jews were present in great numbers at those times when the cities were going through periods of great prosperity. and they were also there in Germany when germany made a metioric rise since its founding in 1870). Now both these conditions - when a tiger chases you or when you are born into a very intellectually conducive ambience - often brings out the best in people. some of the greatest jews are german jews and jews from top cities in europe like Vienna and Zurich.

3) LACK OF OPTIONS - since europeans often treated jews and 2nd and 4rd class citizens jews werent allowed to join public office and normal work. So they were forced to go for jobs like money lender or performning arts (music, drama) and craftsman's jobs.

The vice like jewish grip on banking and international finance (just to make it clear, the previous and present chairman of the US federal reserve allan greenspan and ben shalom bernanke, as also the presend and previous chairman of the world bank, paul wolfowitz and wolfhenson are all jews) comes from thie foundation stone of money lending.

The jewish monopoly on Hollywood and most other Arts based business comes from this.

and the jewish streak of excellence in business comes from the small time baker or cobblers shops that they were once forced to run.

the jews are damn good, collectively as a people, at making the best out of any situation and turning the table on circumstance. the other reason is that the constant life of peril and pogrom that they lived in europe made it very clear to them that in times of extreme crisis, one of man's best friend is money. Those who have read "Exodus" by Leon Uris, need no telling about how people like Rothschield and De Schumann managed to influence things jesu before th holocaust.

4) PSYCHIATRY - jews have been told that they are gods chosen people. from day one a jew grows up knowing that he is a special guy, that the world revolves around their people, that they were chosen by god. Any psychologist will tell you that this helps a lot and people who have been told very early in life that they are special kids always have aspirations which are far beyond normal. more of then than not these kinds of people have super ego and are megalomaniacs. they go for and often succed in pulling off very difficult things. the clasic example is Frank Loyyd Wright - who's mother believed with her heart and soul that her son was the incarnate of the irish god Teliesin and used to call him (frank loyyd wright) by as much. he grew up knowing he was god incarnate, and became one of the greatest archetects of all time.

there are other reasons - for example most jews have a relative or two who is very emminent or rich (or both) in some or the other walk of life. and thats also another reason that they have top ambitions and aspirations. the people that the jews try to emulate are more often than not very emminent and erudite.

your takes?


Ben ami,

I have been living in Israel for past two years.
I see Jews as anyother people. There is nothing so special about them.

I accept most of your claims that ashkenazi were forced to do money lending and living a life peril and have seen the rise and fall of great cultures and empires, that has given them the advantage.

But, Giving Genetics as a reason for jewish intelligence sounds racist.

bengurion.

03-23-2006, 04:58 PM

QUOTE(bengurion @ Mar 23 2006, 03:51 PM)Ben ami,

I have been living in Israel for past two years.
I see Jews as anyother people. There is nothing so special about them.

I accept most of your claims that ashkenazi were forced to do money lending and living a life peril and have seen the rise and fall of great cultures and empires, that has given them the advantage.

But, Giving Genetics as a reason for jewish intelligence sounds racist.

bengurion.
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there is nothing special about jews as a whole society yes - i never said there is.
there are some very very special individual jews though, as the list (wikipedia link) will prove.

as for genetics - thats not racist but scientific.

the science of genetics, which incidentally was invented by a jew called chaim wisemann, says that a intermingling of blood often results in a better creation.

besides umpteen studies have proved that the most intelligent people are the ashkenazi.

http://www.dailyutahchronicle.com/media/pa...ahchronicle.com

http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/050605_iq.htm

http://www.economist.com/science/displayst...tory_id=4032638

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002812.html

Sunder · 03-23-2006, 10:13 PM

Ben, I am at a loss to understand the point you are trying to make here. Jews (or Judaism) is a religion that can be passed on as an idealogy. Genetics are specific to an individual and his ascendents and possible descendents which can only be passed down physically.

Now, at one point you were mentioning that Judaism is one of the two greatest religions and Buddhism did not count. The reason you gave for Judaism's greatness was it was a dictatorial (sic) religion. Later on you also agreed that Old testamenet (which forms an indespensable portion of Judaism) is tribal and gruesome. I do not see how it can be gruesome and GREATEST religion at the same time. Religion is usually a means for Self-Realisaiton or Self upliftment.

QUOTEAny thoughtful and intelligent person who reads the Old Testament
will come away disgusted.

true. the OT is tribal history at best - and very guresome at that. 

Coming to genetics, if you squarely put the greatness of Jews to be genetic, and if it is true, then there is nothing the world can do to 'aquire' those genes. What then is your proposed solution ? Just gawk and bow down to the Jews?

I respect the Jews, and they definitely are our friends and allies in the war against a common enemy. But I cannot see your point in harping that they are the greatest of the greatest and the world would not be possible without them. Well, Mother Nature is quite intelligent enough to help Human Beings evolve into more intelligent creatures. Thus Jews or no Jews, Hindus or no Hindus, the human race will progress towards better adaptation.

On a lighter note, how many Jews have been the greatest 100m sprinters in Olympics, or how many Ms.World / Ms.Universes are jews. How many taxi drivers are jews? How many Siddhas, Yogis, Self-realized mahatmas are jews ?

Recap: I still do not know what the purpose of this thread is other than singing bhajans of Jews and dissing Indian culture.

QUOTEmathematics,

omg...... without jews we would not have math and physics as we know it now. indians are non-entities here.

astrology,

a highly doubious subject. indians reign supreme here!!

03-23-2006, 10:26 PM

I think we have all had our say on this topic. The only thing significant that has been said is that statistically speaking the Ashkenazi Jews have a higher then average intelligence. I seriously doubt that this study actually did study *all* ethnic groups (wonder what the definition of ethnicity is). If the details of that are available then I would like to see that. For example, did they study Indians as one ethnic group or did they pick different gotras, varnas etc.. The other problem is with the testing procedure itself. For eg, most of my friends who took the GRE with me aced the quantitative section but were horrible with the rest - most people who know gujjus will know the reason, we are bad at english.

Anyways we have discussed this before and no real conclusions could come out of that. Intelligence means different things to different people. Language skills are not a constant. The 'intelligence' gene has not been identified as far as I know. People have come out with all kinds of studies linking intelligence with many other things. Since somebody mentioned schizophrenia, I vaguely remember somebody had linked schizophrenia with intelligence too. Bottomline, now is not the time (since little is known) and this aint the audience to talk about this. One should try http://www.gnxp.com/ perhaps.

Given all this, asking for "your take" is a little premature and misplaced I think. So unless something substantial gets posted on this thread in the next day or so, I will close this thread.

03-23-2006, 10:46 PM

Ben, I am at a loss to understand the point you are trying to make here. Jews (or Judaism) is a religion that can be passed on as an idealogy. Genetics are specific to an individual and his ascendents and possible descendents which can only be passed down physically.

yes. of course. and for a people who have been at the receiving end of some ot histories greatest attrocities they have also been at the "receiving end' of some of the most gifted peopel ever born.

Now, at one point you were mentioning that Judaism is one of the two greatest religions and Buddhism did not count.

i maintain that stand. buddhism is a 2nd hand religion. there are only 2 great religious systems in the world - the judiac and the hindic.

The reason you gave for Judaism's greatness was it was a dictatorial (sic) religion.

i certainly did not give the dictatoric nature of judaism as the reason for its greatness just as much as i did not say that hinduism is great cos its democratic. i pointed out that while one epitomised the democratic/bell curve type of religion, the other exemplified the dictatorial/formula type.

these 2 religious systems stem from 2 basic characters of humans.
a streak of indivudiality and a need (or willingness) to follow.

hinduism and all paganism is a product of the former while judaism and all religions that have a founder rely on the human need and desire to conform and follow( ie. be led like sheep.)

Later on you also agreed that Old testamenet (which forms an indespensable portion of Judaism) is tribal and gruesome.

yes.
I do not see how it can be gruesome and GREATEST religion at the same time.

well it is. hitler was gruesome and great at the same time too.

judaism is not great BECAUSE its gruesome though.

its great cos it exemplifies one of the two possible kinds of religion. great because its one of the oldest religions and has been preserved to this day, just like hinduism. its great cos its swawned 2 of the world's biggest religiuons howsoever disagreeable those 2 may be. great cos of the influence its had on society and historyy of mankind and for 4000+ years now.


Religion is usually a means for Self-Realisaiton or Self upliftment.

yes. going by the list of overachieving jews, they need no further self upliftment and self realisation (or self actualisation, as Maslow would put it). we could do with some tho.

QUOTEAny thoughtful and intelligent person who reads the Old Testament
will come away disgusted.

true. the OT is tribal history at best - and very guresome at that. 

Coming to genetics, if you squarely put the greatness of Jews to be genetic,

the reason why the ashkenazi are SO intelligent IS genetic. why they excell (lots of intelligent people often dont) is cos of ambient reasons, be it harsh circumstance, a need to stay ahead of a perilious society or being in the right (ie. flourishing) cities at the right time etc.

and if it is true, then there is nothing the world can do to 'aquire' those genes. What then is your proposed solution ? Just gawk and bow down to the Jews?

nope. just accept things as they are ie. call a spade a spade and give others their due. besides where does the question of a "solution" come, since its not a "problem" that they are smart. its just a matter of interest and curiosity.

I respect the Jews, and they definitely are our friends and allies in the war against a common enemy. But I cannot see your point in harping that they are the greatest of the greatest and the world would not be possible without them.

well its not me that says that they have the greatest people amongst them. facts say that. and yes without einstein there'd be no relativity, without freud no psychoanalysis, without marx no communism, without wiseman no genetics, without engelberger no robotics, without milton friedman no modern economics, without gellman no particle physics as we know it etc etc.

Well, Mother Nature is quite intelligent enough to help Human Beings evolve into more intelligent creatures. Thus Jews or no Jews, Hindus or no Hindus, the human race will progress towards better adaptation.

sure. what makes you think that humans evolve equally?? why arnt there too many blacks in NASA?

On a lighter note, how many Jews have been the greatest 100m sprinters in Olympics,


not many. proves horseshit thout, 100 metres races. mark spitz alone won some 6 golds in swimming tho.

or how many Ms.World / Ms.Universes are jews.

not many or none. lots of hollywod starlets and queens are jewish though.

How many taxi drivers are jews?

wont be surprised to knwo that there arnt any.

How many Siddhas, Yogis, Self-realized mahatmas are jews ?

read my list - einstein, gell mann, wisemann, bengurion, friedman etc etc.

Recap: I still do not know what the purpose of this thread is other than singing bhajans of Jews and dissing Indian culture.

dissing is used to mean "discussing" no dismissing.

the purpose of this thread was to ponder about why and how the peopel who have the fakest of religios systems and the most gruesome of religions also are the ones who make the world go round.

QUOTEmathematics,

omg...... without jews we would not have math and physics as we know it now. indians are non-entities here.

astrology,

a highly doubious subject. indians reign supreme here!!



both the jewish contribution to math and the indian hard-on for astrology need no further discussing. its there for everyone to see.

and now if no one will come with relevant replies to the REAL question of the thread (what makes jews so remarkable) then we may as well close this thread. i wish Dhu would answer one last time tho. or Aryaman.

03-23-2006, 10:47 PM

QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Mar 23 2006, 10:26 PM) For eg, most of my friends who took the GRE with me aced the quantitative section but were horrible with the rest - most people who know gujjus will know the reason, we are bad at english.



there is a heaven and hells difference betwen the small time math of gre quants and modern physics.

trust me, i know what i am talking.

gre proves horseshit. smart are the guys who are at TIFR.

03-23-2006, 10:53 PM

Thread is now closed.

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