Dera Sucha Sauda -Sikh conflict in India

05-22-2007, 07:09 PM

QUOTEThere is a lot of other material, Hindus have not dealt with many of these things and as far as I am concerned it is futile to argue for a Hindu identity for Sikhs since they don't want to be labelled as such

There may be more material to prove that none of the Sikh Gurus wanted to really start a new religion...

Anyway, point is.... is Sikhism a part of Hinduism???The answer would be 'yes'...but having said this, do some or let's say even most(not all) Sikhs see themselves as Hindus as of today??? Maybe not.

Bharatvarsh, I wanted to ask you a question, would you also say 'as far as I am concerned it is futile to argue for a Hindu identity for Buddhists, Jains, Dalilts or for that matter maybe even SC/STs etc since they don't want to be labelled as such?

If this is so, what according to you then is the actual percentage of Hindus in India?

05-22-2007, 07:17 PM

Ajatshatru!! You have been talking with juvenile neo sikhs who have no clue of sikhi.

QUOTEI must mention one more thing hereâ¦Some Sikhs think of Bhindrawalla as their 11th Guru but not many Sikhs even acknowledge the sacrifice of Banda Bahadur. Guru Gobind requested Banda Bahadur (who was a Hindu Brahmin) to continue the fight against Muslims after Guru Gobind Singh took Sanyaas. Banda Bahadur was one of the best warriors ever known and terrorized Muslim goons so much that Muslims used to pee in their pants just hearing his name. He was eventually betrayed by Sundari, wife of Guru Gobind Singh, to the Mughals (this can be verified by history books). Even when he was caught and tortured, he refused to convert to Islam and he was perhaps more brave than any Sikh in history.


This is totally wrong!! Banda Bahadur was a Dogra Khatri from Jammu region who had became ascetic after he killed a pregnant doe and settled at Nander (Maharashtra). Guru Gobind Singh after sacrifice of his four sons, his parents was going down towards South to preach Sikhi when he visited Bairagi (ascetic). Bairagi immediately became "Banda" of Guru Banda means "Slave" and Guru Gobind Singh told him to become a real Kshtriya and forget his asceticism., Guru reminded him of his Dharm. Then... Guru Gobind Singh gave him letters (hukamnama) as well as his five distinct arrows along with five sikhs (one was Bhai Binod Singh descendant of third guru Guru Amardas, another was Baj Singh who both became governors of Sarhind and Lohgarh later)

Sikhs acknowledge Banda just like Sikhs acknowledge Bhai Kapur Singh, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, Kirpa Singh, Jassa Singh Ramgarhia, and so forth...

Banda defeated Mughals at Sarhind and occupied all the area between Lahore and Delhi for almost 6 years.
But... the trouble happened when Banda brought back some of his "vaishavism" back to Sikhi.. at this time Sikhs were meat eaters... (many gurdwaras outside of Punjab do serve meat away from the normal langar as they continued their tradition from the Gurus time).. Banda told them to be vegetarians. Banda became as huge as Guru Gobind Singh and his people started calling themselves as "Bandai Khalsa" as oppose to the "Tatva Khalsa" i.e. "real khalsa".

Then Mughals pooled their resources from all over India (Khalsa was only created in 1699 and this is 1712-15 we are talking about) i.e. 10-13 years after Khalsa was created. Mughals cornered Sikhs at Gurdas Nangal (gurdaspur) Many Sikhs ran away but surprisingly Banda Bahadur and 700 Sikhs surrendered to Mughals.. All 700 were beheaded at Delhi. I am not sure why you are blaming Mata Sundari? Mata Sundari adopted an orphan (Jassa Singh Ahluwalia) as all her sons were dead. Jassa Singh Ahluwali later became Jathedar of Akal Takht and was responsible for surrender of Mughals at Delhi as well as under him all Gurudwaras at delhi were created.

Meanwhile just after the beheading of Banda Bahadur there was a big rift among Sikhs!! about half of the Sikhs didn't believe that the Book could be the guru and they started calling themselves as "Bandai Khalsa" while rest called themselves "Tatva Khalsa". So to solve this problem a Sarbatt Khalsa (whole congregation of Khalsa) was declared by Bhai Mani Singh (who was also murdered by Mughals at Lahore later) in around 1718 A.D. Then.. at this Sarbatt Khalsa there were competitions among Banda and Tatva Khalsa Sikhs (Wrestling, riding, etc)... both were equal... Banda Singh Bahadur had actually replaced the salutation "waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh" with "Fateh Darshan"... Bhai Mani Singh who was Jathedar of Akal Takht and five choosen Singhs decided one last time to do this... He wrote on one paper "Waheguru ji ka Khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh" and "Fateh Darshan" on another!! then he immersed his hands in the Sarovar releasing them at the same time... the paper with "Waheguru" came up first and thus all Bandai Khalsa then threw their lot with Tatva Khalsa and rift was stopped.

Any person who believe that Bhindrenwale or anybody else is a Guru except for Guru Granth Sahib is automatically not a Sikh. I can't believe that any real Sikh will ask somebody to bow in front of a picture. Even when you see all these television serials where people bow in front of a picture of Guru Nanak or Guru Gobind Singh are actually against the teachings of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh.

... and now regarding 1857.... Ranjit Singh died in 1839... Sikhs were defeated by British in 1849 in a series of five battles and Punjab was the last province to fall!! and the soldiers who British had employed were 100% Bengali/Bihari poorbia Soldiers. All the other kingdoms in India were already under British protection!! from awadh to Hyderabad to Jhansi to Patiala, Nabha, Jind. Ranjit Singh's kingdom was the last one to fall in 1839..

Then in 1857... when British employed the Sikh disbanded army to stop the Sepoy rebellion!!!! so Sikhs saw that as an oppurtunity to get back at Bengali/Biharis who have been serving British from centuries and then suddenly decided to rebel against their masters!! Sikhs saw it as a last attempt for Mughals to come back to Delhi's throne and not as a First battle of Independence.

You should apologise about your comment about Mata Sundari she never had anything to do with Banda Singh Bahadur..

05-22-2007, 07:22 PM

What is a Sikhi?

Sikh is a disciple Guru is a Teacher. Anybody who believes and follows the teachings in Guru Granth Sahib then he/she is a Sikh.

Guru Granth Sahib teaches to be away from
Kaam = Lust
Krodh = Anger
Lobh = Greed
Moh = Attachment
Hankaar = Ego

and to be towards
Satt = Truth
Santokh = Contentment
Sabr = Patience
Daya = Compassion
Dharam = Rightousness

and these five things are represented through the five symbols
Kesh, Kara, KAchcha, Kirpan, Kangha.

A Sikh is suppose to be a Saint and Soldier.
A Sikh is suppose to believe in democracy where he/she votes and pick a council of Five Sikhs periodically.

My personal opinion is that All Hindus in India should become Sikhs to better serve their motherland and to become better Hindus.

05-22-2007, 08:04 PM

QUOTECertain I'm missing something here, because even Khalistanis ought to know that their religion is not 2000 yrs old...
Were they really claiming Hindus made them become non-veg (that's the meaning of 'eating a dead animal' after all; besides I don't think anyone wants to be eating live animals).Â I don't understand their logic.
No, this is true, Just shows IQ, and knowledge about their own faith. They were just brainwashed fools. They were well suited screaming and cursing Hindu and claiming they are very poor people and abused by Hindu Brahmins. In US, who will check these fools claim? This is not one isolated case.
In 2000 or 2001, they used planes with banner "Hindu kills minorities in India" in San Francisco Bay Area.
They publish couple of anti-Hindu and anti-India newspaper in San Francisco bay area, which are full of hatred and twisted facts.

QUOTEMy personal opinion is that All Hindus in India should become Sikhs to better serve their motherland and to become better Hindus.
Hindus are doing fine. Thank you.
Give this advise to Muslims and Christians.

Sikhs should go back to original faith and check why they were formed and try to follow gurus. At this stage, it is heading for wrong direction.

QUOTEA Sikh is suppose to believe in democracy where he/she votes and pick a council of Five Sikhs periodically.
Ya, before and after election, heavy police is required because of gun battle before and after so-called election. Whether it is Berkley or San Jose or other Gurdwara in US. Same is in India.

QUOTEA Sikh is suppose to be a Saint and Soldier. 
Reality is very different. Murder, terrorsim in Indian and abroad.

Islam is supposed to be Religion of peace.

05-22-2007, 08:21 PM

We have a farm in North India. During some festivals, my Sikh neighbors used to dress like Guru Gobind to lead the âjaloosâ. I have over the years also seen other Sikhs dress like Guru Gobind on different occasions but now Sikhs want an apology from a gentleman who dressed like Guru Gobind so according to Sikhs insulted Sikhism. Is Sikhism so fragile that merely by a manâs dressing up as a Guru hurts Sikhs sentiments? If Sikhism is indeed so fragile then what is the point in having such a fragile faith at all?

We used to talk of Muslims being fanatics but Sikhs now seem to have even beaten Muslims when it comes to being âmajhabiâ â¦.

And no Hindu writer has mentioned Banda Bahadur as Rajput as far as I know but Jat-Sikh writers Rattan Singh Bhangu & Gyani Gian Singh Dullat, so say thanks to Sikh writers. Most of the Hindu & Muslim authors do not mention his caste background and if they do they mention him as Bhardwaj Brahmin.

History as was taught to me is different from the made up history as viewed by Sikhsâ¦And I stand by the comment I made about Sundari. Today if Sikhs feign ignorance regarding the role Sundari played in the capture of Banda Bahadur, it is their problem...Then there is actual history and then there is make belief history as believed (and that suits) Sikhs now.

QUOTEYou should apologise about your comment about Mata Sundari she never had anything to do with Banda Singh Bahadur

You mean in the similar manner as Sikhs now claim that Sikhs NEVER had anything to do with Hindus or Hinduism? <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

Why donât Sikhs apologize in connection with what happened to Hindus in Punjab & entire North India during 1980s and 1990s? Why donât you apologize for Sikhs role in 1857? Why donât Sikhs apologize for holding the entire country to ransom recently? Why donât Sikhs apologize for turning their back towards Hinduism? Or are you trying to imply that only Sikh sentiments are important. Sikhs can do anything they want without an iota or remorse. Yet it is always others who should be apologizing? 'Maafi maangnay kaa sara theka Hindustan main sirf hinduon nay lay rakha hain kya'? Others are free to do and say anything they like in India?

And what are 'YOU' going to do if people don't succumb to your unreasonable demands? Even create a 'balwa'(ruckus) brandishing swords & try to intimidate everyone here on this forum as your Sikh bretheren are doing all over India? Why don't you apologise for a change for your unreasonable fanatic behavior? AND WHO ARE SIKHS ANYWAY TO KEEP DEMANDING APOLOGY FROM ANYONE & EVERYONE AT THE DROP OF A HAT? Who gave you such a right anyway?

QUOTEMy personal opinion is that All Hindus in India should become Sikhs to better serve their motherland and to become better Hindus.

We Hindus consider Sikhism as part of Hinduism so already consider ourselves also as Sikhs but are Sikhs willing to consider themselves as Hindus anymore?

And serve motherland the way Sikhs served motherland in 1857? Thanks but no thanks. Or do you mean serve motherland like some Sikhs wanted to do in 1980s by seperating from India to form a seperate country 'Khalistan'?

Your thoughts remind me of what Khuswant Singh had so aptly said in the past 'The only 'Khali' (empty) sthan(place) is in some Sikhs heads.

05-22-2007, 08:33 PM

QUOTE(sbajwa @ May 22 2007, 07:22 PM)Guru Granth Sahib teaches to be away from
Kaam = Lust
Krodh = Anger
Lobh = Greed
Moh = Attachment
Hankaar = Ego

A Sikh is suppose to be a Saint and Soldier.Â

In order to be a successful soldier, one has to have Krodh, Lobh, Moh & Hankaar.

QUOTE(sbajwa @ May 22 2007, 07:22 PM)My personal opinion is that All Hindus in India should become Sikhs to better serve their motherland and to become better Hindus.
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In my personal opinion, people are free to choose whatever they want to become to better serve their motherland and to become better human beings.

05-22-2007, 08:35 PM

Police, Sikhs clash at two places in Ambala, over 10 hurtQUOTESikh youths and Akali Dal workers threw stones at police from inside the Manji Sahab Gurdwara, leading to minor injuries to some persons.

Haryana Akali Dal spokesman Sant Singh Kandhari said on the spot that the police personnel had first attacked the peacefully protesting Sikhs by throwing stones

ramana · (This post was last modified: 05-22-2007, 09:00 PM by ramana.)

So what exactly is the message of DSS? How does it differ from traditional Sikhism? And why does it attract its followers?

I agree that Sikh sentiments were hurt initially by the DSS. But the Sikh reaction seems to be out of proportion and excessive. Points to some insecurity and has shades of the Danish cartoons issue.

Also this issue has the potential to envelope both Punjab and Harayana in flames while the Khalistan was a Punjab issue only.

What is the Akali Dal take on this issue? Do they see this as a Sikh rights issue to be defended by oppressingthe DSS?

----------------
Tribune reports:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20070518/main1.htm

Looks to me like all dissent is being suppressed by violence and the Govt is looking on.

The fact that there are so many Deras- DSS & the one in Batala and who knows where else, shows that there is alternate thought process underway in Sikhism.

05-22-2007, 09:06 PM

QUOTEIn order to be a successful soldier, one has to have Krodh, Lobh, Moh & Hankaar.


How so? To fight a Dharam Yuddh!! you do not need Krodh or Lobh or Moh or Ahankaar.

05-22-2007, 09:12 PM

QUOTE by Ramanna
So what exactly is the message of DSS? How does it differ from traditional Sikhism?


Traditional Sikhi is very democractic! Five picked Sikhs (by all Sikh Sangat) decide on the Rahit (code of rules) and then Sikh Sangat votes on it. So if tomorrow all Sikh sangat votes on that Cigarettes are cool and sikhs can smoke it will be fine as per Khalsa rules of Guru Gobind Singh. Eventhough many Sikhs think of Cigaretts as "blashphamy".

So! the point is that Sikhi is very very democractic with Akal Takht being political head. Where traditionally on Holi and on Diwali Sikhs would gather and vote/pass out Hukamnamas (orders).

But these deras are against Sikh as one person start behaving as if Guru and people not realizing the "democratic" path start blindly following a dera head.

There is no priesthood in Sikhi either... All Sikhs are suppose to read Guru Granth Sahib and understand it as according to their own comprehension and not somebody else's interpretation. All the gurdwara priests are called "Bhai" i.e. "brother" i.e. "equal". they are neither high nor low than normal Sikhs or other human beings. So from this angle when people bow and revere a normal person like Jarnail Singh Bhindrenwale or Gurmit ram Rahim singh they are deviating from only accepting Guru Granth Sahib (a book) as their Guru.

Jath means "band"
Dar means "leader" so Jathedar means "leader of the Band"

05-22-2007, 09:13 PM

QUOTEWhat is the Akali Dal take on this issue? Do they see this as a Sikh rights issue to be defended by oppressingthe DSS?

DDS supported Congress, so they are political rival.
This week, CBI was supposed to release report on Head DDS, his involvement in rapes, Murder and dera property issue. DDS head had created this issue to suppress this report. This is well calculated move by him. Same he did before assembly election by bumping Akhali candidate in Majha.
Khalistani Sikhs and hardcore Sikh religious bodies are using this opportunity to bring back to their glory days of 80s and 90s. Congress is supporting all old glory daysâ people.

Average people are clueless. In school drama or street act people dress up like gurus and react Gurus, no one ever made this issue.

Think about, if one day some Hindus start complaining about Ramlila.

This whole issue is political and same late 70s trend.

05-22-2007, 09:15 PM

Even other deras and groups like Radha Soamis and many Nirankaris and Namdharis are not thought of as a Sikh eventhough they read Guru Granth Sahib., and try to follow Guru Granth Sahib's teaching but without Rahit. They are called "SAhijdhari" sikhs.

05-22-2007, 09:20 PM

From a Sikh site itself:

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....725702B005CA157

'These Sikhs manipulated Mata Sundari ji who was under tremendous pressure from the Mughal emperors Bahadur Shah and later Frukhsiayar to neutralize Baba Banda'

05-22-2007, 09:23 PM

This is 100% political and smells fishy just like back in 1977 when Gurbachana (leader of Naqli Nirankaris) sat above Guru Granth Sahib and on the Visakhi day of 1977 (when lots of sikhs had gathered at Golden Temple) told that Guru Gobind Singh created Five Pyaras and I will create Satt Sitaras in front of Golden Temple. He along with his armed bodyguards marched to Golden Temple when followers of Akhand Kirtani Jatha and Damdami Taksal (Bhindrenwalle's group) came out of Golden Temple to stop him... Gurbachana and his body guards murdered 13 of these Sikhs... Bhindrenwale narrowly survived...

Congress supported Gurbachana and the murder case of 13 sikhs was moved from Amritsar District to Karnal and then Gurbachana was acquitted despite over 50 eyewitnesses.

Bhindrenwale used this incident to incite youth that ended up in an attack on golden temple and then murder of indira gandhi... then whole 1980s through 1993...

But.. the point is that when dera head block votes for Congress or Akalis through their blind followers democracy is murdered.

So!! this might be start up of another bad patch through punjab. Government has to be very very careful.

side note: Chandigarh's senior police officer (Mishra) committed suicide yesterday as he was involved in lot of extra judicial assasinations back in 1980s...

05-22-2007, 09:26 PM

Ajatshatru!! come on man... that's somebody named pal singh sandhu writing on a forum on a Sikhnet website... It is not a fact.

Mata Sundari lived in Delhi but she had no control over Sikh political issues! Sikhs were being led by Bhai Mani Singh, Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Binod Singh, Bhai Bal Singh and Baba Banda Singh bahadur. (The five picked singhs at this time).

Sikhs always have Five picked sikhs to lead them... Guru Gobind Singh's widow was living at Delhi away from Sikh politics!! Sikh politics was mostly in/around Amritsar. Guru Gobind Singh's widow was not even allowed in Amritsar due to their family problems.

05-22-2007, 09:52 PM

QUOTE Even other deras and groups like Radha Soamis and many Nirankaris and Namdharis are not thought of as a Sikh eventhough they read Guru Granth Sahib., and try to follow Guru Granth Sahib's teaching but without Rahit. They are called "SAhijdhari" sikhs.'

And what makes some Sikhs more pure Sikhs than the others?

And what exactly do you mean by âRahitâ? If you meant âRahit Maryadaâ then it is The Sikh Code of Conduct concieved by the Shromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. If you meant âRahit Namaâ i.e. A manual of conduct for Khalsa Sikhs. There are a number of them by various Sikhs dating back to the eighteenth century so how does one come to the conclusion it is 100% right?

Earlier you said âA Sikh is suppose to be a Saint and Soldierâ.

Recent violence makes most people think there are only soldiers and hardly any Saints left in Punjab. <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

While we agree that the whole recent problem may have been orchestrated by Congress (please read my earlier post that I posted 2-3 days back)â¦but having said this, it must be also said here that a lot of Indians are not exactly amused by the continuous slightly 'over the top' reaction displayed by some Sikhs recently.

05-22-2007, 10:01 PM

Only immediate outcome I can see are â

Rush for Political asylum application by Sikhs all over world.
Sikhs Channels from DC, California and Canada will recycle old pictures.
Fresno Congressman will release some statement in favor of Sikhs
Burton will get another round of funding.

05-22-2007, 10:29 PM

QUOTEAnd what exactly do you mean by âRahitâ? If you meant âRahit Maryadaâ then it is The Sikh Code of Conduct concieved by the Shromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. If you meant âRahit Namaâ i.e. A manual of conduct for Khalsa Sikhs. There are a number of them by various Sikhs dating back to the eighteenth century so how does one come to the conclusion it is 100% right?


Rahit is code of conduct as told by Guru Gobind Singh ji on Visakhi day (1st Visakhi) 1699 A.D. This was written by Guru's disciple Bhai Nand lal ji. In original Rahit there are no restrictions on meat eating but Guru Gobind Singh told his Khalsa that they can change/amend Rahit as they deemed fit through Sarbatt Khalsa (voting).

I am not sure if you know the story of Bhai Nand lal ji!! he was an Islamic Scholar of Arabian, Quran and Persian living in Ghazni! and became very famous among Ulemmas.. He became so much famous that people all over India knew him as a hindu who knows more about Islam than muslims themselves. Then Aurungzeb one day was discussing something with his Ulema about Islam where he could not be satisified by the answers as provided. Somebody told him about Bhai Nand lal ji of Ghazni., he was summoned to Delhi...

Bhai Nand Lal ji's answer so much satisfied Aurungzeb that he immediately declared to convert Bhai Sahib and his whole family to Islam., forcibly or otherwise. At this time many Kashmiris, Satnamis, Nirankaris, Sadhus, Saints, etc use to come under protection of Guru Gobind Singh ji (tradition started by his father when KAshmiri brahmins came for protection)., Bhai Nand lal ji went straight to Guru Gobind Singh at Anandpur sahib and told his problem and asked to live with him. He was off course provided a shelter along with his family to keep Mughals away.

Then came 1699 Visakhi Day when Khalsa was created!! Bhai Nand Lal wrote the first Rahitnama in Punjabi (still available) which was approved by Guru Gobind Singh himself.

Then... under Banda Bahadur Vegetarianism was added in the rahitnama... then many other things.... the point is that Rahitnama is code of conduct for people of faith to follow.

Well Since there may be more soldiers in punjab (than saints) Government of India should get more people in defense forces from Punjab!!

05-22-2007, 10:32 PM

QUOTEAnd what makes some Sikhs more pure Sikhs than the others? 

According to rahit, Khalsa Sikhs are those who take Guru Granth Sahib as their guru. People like Radhasoamis or DSS are not Khalsa Sikhs as they take Baba of Beus or Baba Gurmit Ram Rahim as their Guru., so they are Sikhs of Dera Beus or Sikhs of Dera "Sacha" Sauda.

Sacha Sauda itself is a term plagiarised from Khalsa Sikhs off course to mock.

05-22-2007, 10:53 PM

Why they are hurting this guy dera? How stupid?

Bid to attack Dera of Ashutosh Maharaj in Batala QUOTEBatala (Punjab), May 22: A group of Sikh youths on Tuesday made an abortive attempt to attack the Dera of spiritual guru Ashutosh Maharaj here during the day-long bandh called to protest Sirsa-based Dera Sacha Sauda head Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh's alleged blasphemous act.

Some 40 to 50 Sikh youths went to the Dera of Divya Jyoti Jagrati Sansthan and tried to enter the premises, raising slogans, eyewitnesses and police said.

But alert police and CRPF personnel foiled the bid and dispersed the crowd.

They also rounded up some youths who were released after investigations, Senior Superintendent of Police R N Dhoke said.

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