Dera Sucha Sauda -Sikh conflict in India

[Guest]

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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->माना जा रहा है कि केंद्र सरकार के दबाव के चलते हरियाणा सरकार के आला अधिकारियों के प्रयास से ही डेरा सच्च सौदा माफी मांगने को तैयार हो पाया है। डेरा प्रबंधकों की हरियाणा के पुलिस महानिदेशक आरएस दलाल और अन्य अधिकारियों के साथ रविवार को बैठक हुई। इसके बाद ही डेरे की ओर से माफीनामा जारी किया गया। <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This guru will lose his credibility. Now it is clear, he is a political stooge and a fake person.


Rajesh let me reply based on my observation and after talking to lot of people.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. DSS has the capability of tilting balance in some regions in Punjab and Haryana. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only in 5-6 seats where they made difference. Akali lost those areas because Arminder gave that region lot of goodies during his days. Plus after Khalistan movement, Sikhism is losing its attraction and its true lot of people is leaving Sikhism. I know one of my friends in US slowly became Hindu and now his other cousins joined him. He is from a very staunch upper class Sikh family. I was surprised to see his transformation and now he is very much involved in Temple association. His parents and extended family are not happy. He stopped visiting Gurdwara because of in fight and during that phase of his life he was looking for peace and stability in his life. He is very good Vedic Astrologer.

There was a time when Granti and Bhai of Gurdwara used to get lot of respect, few months back I know someone went inside Gurdwara in Punjab and beat heck out of Bhai and Granati because they were helping one jatt to abducted minor girl. Gurdwara kept whole thing under rap. These incidence are not isolated.

Before Khalistan movement no one can even think of doing this. Beating Granti inside Gurdwara, in Punjab out of Question.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2. People are willing to get violent on behalf of DSS and also against DSS.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Criminal element is everywhere. Punjabies knows how to fight, they are not passive people.
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3. There have been several references that said that DSS has reach even within the Sikh community. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Local Gurdwara give special preference to rich and good donors. This is not written in any scripture but that how they work. And poor and underprivileged people want same treatment.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->4. There was some mention that this has some caste angle to it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People who visit Dera or followers of Dera, they follow their own respective relgion. Caste angle is possible in some area.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->6. NOBODY condemned ANYBODY for taking such threatening postures in the public. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Politicians are behind.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->7. Commies and the usual 'progressive' crowd which screams fascism when a simple brahmin takes a leak is totally silent when the 'offense' involved was dressing up as somebody. There was no indecent behavior and its not that others havent really dressed up as Guru Gobind Singhji. Heck we have Ram-Lila and its very common for people to dress up as Ram, Sita, Hanuman etc..<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Average Sikh failed to understand why people are upset, first day I checked my Sikh friend in Punjab, they said Is something is going on? After three days, they said it is just a Khap Khana (people are having fun). They said our kids dressed up like Gurus in plays and fancy dress, now Sikh Sangat will put a ban on these fancy dress and movies. They said we are not Muslims, we use pictures to remember our gurus.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->8. Top it all off, the 'compromise' has been brokered by Swami Agnivesh. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is a Congress stooge, Sikhs showed him middle finger and Dera head denied everything Agnivesh said. Agnivesh is a commie anyway, trying to get into lime light.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Dera apology not received by Takht, says Vedanti </b>
Pioneer News Service | Chandigarh
Standoff likely to continue
The standoff between Akal Takht and Dera Sacha Sauda is expected to prolong following questions raised by radical Sikh organisations over "apology" offered by dera while Akal Takht Jathedar Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti also said on Monday that he had not received any apology letter so far.

The five Sikh high priests are meeting on Tuesday at Akal Takht in Amritsar to discuss the future course of action in the light of new developments. Large number of Sikhs are expected to reach Amritsar to witness the proceedings of the meeting.

Sources close to Akal Takht said that Sikh clergy is unlikely to accept the apology which bears no signatures. Vedanti is understood to have conveyed his feelings to Shiromani Akali Dal(SAD) leaders that dera chief Baba Gurmit Ram Rahim Singh should have signed the letter addressed to Akal Takht.

Vedanti said in Amritsar that he came to know only through the news published in the section of media, otherwise Akal Takht office did not receive any letter or draft from Sacha Sauda sect containing apology. He, however said that the meeting of Sikh high priests scheduled would be held on Tuesday afternoon. During the meeting apology expressed by Sacha Sauda would be discussed besides all issues related to Sacha Sauda sect and further course of action.

However, Vedanti made it clear that new tradition of Amrit Sanchar introduced by the chief of Sacha Sauda sect was not acceptable to Akal Takht as well as Sikh community as it was deadly against the Sikh tenets. He said that Akal Takht edict against dera existed unless changed by Sikh clergy
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Vedanti is just trying to humiliate Dera guru. Lets see how far he can go.

[Guest]

<b>Why many have turned to Dera Sacha</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bathinda, May 28: In the districts of backward southwestern Punjab like Bathinda, Sangrur, Mansa and Muktsar, the Sacha Sauda Dera has acquired a phenomenal following. <b>In Bathinda, District Collector Rahul Bhandari hazards an estimate: Dera followers constitute 1.5 lakh of the total district population of 13 lakh. They are spread out all across — you will find them in every office, every workplace, he says</b>.

The following is said to have dramatically expanded in the tenure of <b>Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh, its third and most controversial, and also its most gimmicky chief. Stories abound of his “miracles” and the blind devotion he commands</b>. At his urging, his supporters are known to pitch in free labour to build houses for the homeless within the day. An imposing cricket stadium was built in Sirsa in 42 days, and a hospital in 46.

<b>But there may be reasons why this area offers particularly fertile ground for a cult such as this one.</b>

In 2001, Bathinda ranked 12th in the state’s then 17 districts of Punjab in terms of literacy. Unlike the Doaba area where every household will have one person settled abroad, the NRI phenomenon is almost invisible here. And there is little or no industrial growth.

According to official figures, in 2001, the registered working factories in Punjab were 14,663; in Bathinda only 512. The average number of workers in Punjab were 4,81,484; in Bathinda only 16,592.

More significantly, <span style='color:red'>drug addiction runs extremely high. Bhandari says on an average at least one person among the state’s 2, 29,000 households is addicted to alcohol or poppy husk. “Bathinda district has the highest rate of addiction in the region,”</span> agrees Maninderjit Singh, civil surgeon Bathinda. Nidhi Gupta, psychiatrist at the de-addiction centre in Bathinda civil hospital, gives the figures: <b>In 2006, the total number of indoor patients was 704, and the total number of outdoor patients 9026. This was an increase from the numbers of 2005: 611 indoor patients and 8039 OPD patients. Of the nearly 80 patients that Gupta sees daily in OPD, over 50 per cent are addicts</b>.

“These are definitely high trends in comparison to other treatment centre data in Punjab and other parts of the country”, says S K Sharma, senior research officer at the National Drug Dependence Treatment Centre of AIIMS, New Delhi.

They come to the Dera for its puritanism.<b> At the top of the 47-point rule book of the Sacha Sauda Dera is prohibition against monetary offerings, television, eggs, non-vegetarian food, but above all, intoxicants.</b> Pappu Garg joined Salabatpura Dera in Bathinda district in 1995. “I was 19 at that time and a liquor addict. Everything changed the day I became a Dera follower. I quit drinking and began concentrating on my work.” He is now the Dera’s media advisor.

<b>The ban on intoxicants was cited the most by the women </b>The Indian Express spoke to inside the Salabatpura Dera as their primary reason for joining it. They come to the Dera to enhance social status. In a state with a very large SC population — almost 29 per cent — the Dera also offers an equal space. But for Punjab Dalits, says Pramod Kumar, director of the Chandigarh-based Institute for Development and Communication, going to the Dera is not so much an act of seeking refuge. <b>“Unlike in UP and Bihar, the Dalit in this state is not a victim of purity and pollution, has experienced some occupational mobility, adopted the cultural markers of Jat identity and then looks for a separate arena of assertion”. </b>

They come to the Dera to submit to the guru. In an increasingly complex world, the guru takes over, gives direction. “Ýou can fill the room with books, but of what use are they without a guru to guide you” asks young Rupinder Singh, 20. He lives in Patiala and regularly goes to a prayer hall of the Dera Sacha Sauda located on the city’s outskirts. It’s a home away from home, he says.

Then there is the 47-point code of conduct. It includes exhortations to social reform — <b>Rule 21 prohibits dowry, Rule 41 advocates widow remarriage — and more quotidian instructions. Rule 46 advises the follower to drink a glass of water and take a 5-minute pause for reflection whenever he or she gets angry</b>.

A spot poll inside the Salabatpura Dera suggests that <b>while the larger part of the following may well be rural, lower caste and lower class Sikh, the Dera also draws in big numbers from other castes and classes and communities</b>. A similar spot poll at the prayer hall near Patiala turned up a mix of college-going youth alongwith small businessmen, government employees, landed Jat farmers and SC daily wage labour.
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[Guest]

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main30.asp?fi...uch_vice_CS.asp

http://www.asianage.com/presentation/leftn...halistanis.aspx

[Guest]

Few months ago, GS had opened a thread thread on: Capt Amarinder marries Pak Journalist, claims Pak paper

What's the latest on this?

[Guest]

From Tehelka link posted by Rajesh:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Gurmeet Singh is a close associate of the dreaded militant, Gurjant Singh Rajasthani, of the Khalistan Liberation Force.</b> Sirsa is agog with hushed talk of the ouster of Satnam Singh by Rajasthani. That sets the tone for an expansion of the Dera’s fortunes and of Gurmeet, who takes on the title of ‘Hazoor Maharaj Sant Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh’.
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have also attended the <b>marriage of Santji’s daughter to Punjab Congress mla HS Jassi’s son</b>,” says Dirba Kalan’s Congress mla Bharat Singh Beniwal<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Punjab Congress mla HS Jassi’s son<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, he is now elected MLA from Bathinda.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The godman, and his sect courted controversy by openly coming out in support of the Congress in the February assembly elections in Punjab. His son-in-law, Harminder Singh Jassi, contested on a Congress ticket from the Bathinda assembly seat and won.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
link


This DDS Baba is 40 years old (born 1967) and already grand father. At what age he got married, minimum legal male marriage age is 21 yrs.

CHeck this election affidavit, <b>his son-in-law is 51 yrs old</b>
What the hell is going on?

[Guest]

<b>Sikh priests reject Dera chief's apology</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Akal Takht dismissed the apology as "a shrewd tactic to divert attention".

In conflict with the Dera chief for his alleged imitation of Sikh Guru Gobind Singh, the five Sikh high priests, at a meeting in Amritsar, said the social boycott of Dera followers announced by them would continue.

A resolution adopted at the meeting said the apology given by the Dera chief to Guru Gobind Singh on Sunday night was "<b>not graceful in language and spirit".</b>

The priests said the apology was<b> "no more than a shrewd tactic of the Dera chief to divert attention from the fact that he himself is not forthcoming with the apology but is instead trying to hide behind nameless followers".</b>

<b>The Takht described the Dera chief as "shrewd and egoistic".</b>

"When the apology is sincere and from the core of the heart, then the Guru (Gobind Singh) is magnanimous to forgive. If he has sincerely apologized, then the Guru would forgive him," the resolution said adding "but he has worded the apology in a cunning manner".

<b>"God always pardons the guilty", </b>the Sikh priests said in the statement
...

<b>"If they have indulged in mischief, the Guru would take care of them,"</b> it said
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[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Forces on alert for May 31 Sikh march </b>
Pioneer News Service | Chandigarh
Punjab Government has started making security arrangements for 'Protest March' to be taken out on May 31 from Fatehgarh Sahib to Chandigarh by Sikh organisations under the command of Akal Takht. Thousands of Sikhs are expected to participate in the protest march being organised against Dera Sacha Sauda and its head Baba Gurmit Ram Rahim Singh for his alleged act of blasphemy. Punjab had witnessed a spell of violence after dera chief projected himself parallel to Guru Gobind Singh on May 14 last.

Punjab DGP NS Aulakh on Tuesday visited Fatehgarh Sahib to review security arrangements. The DGP met Fatehgarh Sahib SSP Nilabh Kishore and other senior officials. Nilabh Kishore said that around 2,000 police personnel will be deployed on May 31 to ward off any untoward incident. He said that no one would be allowed to disturb peace. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[ramana]

Mudy call me.

[Guest]

Also I dont know how important is it in the final scheme of things but Gurmeet Singh is a Jat Sikh according to the Tehelka link.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gurmeet Singh, a 23-year-old Jat Sikh from a family of landlords in Gursomondia village in Rajasthan’s Ganganagar district, takes over the gaddi at the Dera Sacha Sauda in Sirsa. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gurmeet Singh, a 23-year-old Jat Sikh from a family of landlords in Gursomondia village in Rajasthan’s Ganganagar district, takes over the gaddi at the Dera Sacha Sauda in Sirsa. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some say he was Muslim and something happened. But he had connection with Rajastani, it means Pakistan and ISI.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 30 2007, 08:07 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2007, 08:07 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gurmeet Singh, a 23-year-old Jat Sikh from a family of landlords in Gursomondia village in Rajasthan’s Ganganagar district, takes over the gaddi at the Dera Sacha Sauda in Sirsa. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some say he was Muslim and something happened. But he had connection with Rajastani, it means Pakistan and ISI.
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Welll Gurjant Singh Rajasthani is from Ganganagar... and Ganganagar district and specifically hanumangarh tehsil is majority Jat Sikhs in Rajasthan. Many years ago... before independence or around independence.. Maharaja Ganga Singh of Rajasthan offered free lands to many Jat Sikhs who settled there after or before rajasthan canal was built.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gurjant Singh Rajasthani is from Ganganagar<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is known terrorist and he had links with Mann.
Two years back, his group was behind bomb blast in Delhi cinema. I will try to find link.

[Guest]

<b>Akal Takht calls off protest march by Sikhs to Chandigarh</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->FATEHGARH SAHIB: On the directions of Akal Takht the propsoed Sikh March from Fatehgarh Sahib to Chandigarh has been called off instead the March will start from Gurdawara Fatehgarh Sahib to Gurdawara Jyoti Sarup at a distance of one kilometer.
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<b>Radical Sikhs applaud the Akal Takht 'Gurmata' on dera Sacha Sauda </b>

[ramana]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 23 2007, 03:31 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ May 23 2007, 03:31 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Greater Punjab region (Including India and Pakistan) had “herd mentality”. Harapa Civilization started here and along with Sun and Shiva worship took its root, during Vedic period, everyone followed Veda and Vedic period prospered here. During 3rd-4th century whole region became Buddhist, some remnant of Vedic followers brought back Vedic religion with flare of Buddhism, lot of temple were built, then Islamic invasion; people followed new wave and started following Islam. Islam mixed with temple concept changed into Pir. Next came Bhakti period, Pir, Babas,  Sikhism came and people started following new religion. Then came Arya Samaj, New tread started and in masses people started following Arya Samaj and back to Vedic religion. Same time lot of Baba started preaching. This region is always in flux, either its herd survival mentality or people believe in Chamatkari Baba, some sort of visible Idol to follow. Only religion which failed here is Christianity.

It is a regular process. I still see herd mentality, nothing had changed. Region is waiting for another Chamatkari. In 80s we thought it was Bhiderwale, now some is trying to make DDS, Sai Baba would have more successful in this region had he stayed here. Or any current Shankarcharyas.</b>
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Very good post as it gives an insight into Punjab and Punjabiyat.

[ramana]

Oped in Pioneer, 30 May 2007. Gives one prespective. Not complete picture.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Believers and heretics

Sikhs have no patience for pretenders and charlatans, says Anuradha Dutt

<b>The violent clashes between the Sikh establishment and adherents of the Dera Sacha Sauda sect intimate the constant friction between religious cults, centred upon individual gurus, and the Sikh faith in Punjab.</b> It is not the first time that such a conflict has occurred; nor is it likely to be the last in view of the <b>growing attraction of heresies for a large number of Sikhs, resulting in the mushrooming of deras, led by various gurus, throughout the State as well as other places, with a large Sikh populace.</b>

The quest for miracle-workers accounts for the flourishing gurudoms in present-day India. <b>Punjab, the land of the Khalsa, has also been swept by this phenomenon, with the heads of deras being worshipped as divine avatars and the like by their followers.</b> But, whereas, Hinduism, as a syncretic religion, accommodates such impulses, they are contrary to the <b>basic tenets of Sikhism</b>.

Briefly, these are, <b>one,</b> belief in a line of 10 gurus, beginning with Guru Nanak and ending with Guru Gobind Singh. After the latter, the Guru Granth Sahib was required to be revered as the Guru. <b>Two,</b> worship of deities is forbidden since the Sikh faith rejects the priest-dominated cosmos of gods, their ritual worship and costly expiations. And, <b>three</b>, caste has no place in the egalitarian Sikh worldview that holds entire humanity equal in its aspiration for god.

Over the centuries, the purity of the beliefs has remained unsullied but many of their adherents have shown an inclination to stray from the path. <b>The iniquities of caste and appeal of mystical systems that lie in the realm of heresies have infiltrated the Sikh ethos. The deras, with egalitarian pretensions and headed by charismatic figures, who are credited by their flock with supernormal powers, draw lakhs of seekers.</b> But they are blamed by the custodians of the faith for misleading people. The highly revered Baba Murad Shah in Nakodar is Sufi.

<b>Though much is being made of the perceived conflict of interests between the Jat-controlled Sikh establishment and the largely Dalit-patronised Sacha Sauda sect and similar deras, the reason for such friction is more complex. These cults claim to ascribe to the fundamental Sikh tenets. Yet, by focussing upon individual gurus outside the original line, they are clearly heretic.</b> They want to have their cake and eat it too. A few examples may be cited.

<b>The Nirankari cult,</b> widespread in Punjab in the last century, <b>is blamed for triggering the rise of the Sikh hardliners in reaction</b>. Militancy and the fight for Khalistan in the 1980s was a direct fallout of the violent feud between the two camps, with India's enemies fuelling the conflict for their own ends. The sect was founded by Baba Dayal Singh in the 19th century, and perpetuated by others after him. <b>In 1975, the Akal Takht, the highest Sikh authority, excommunicated the Nirankaris.</b>

Similarly, <b>a massive dera, spread over 100 acres in Bhaniara, and headed by a 'godman' called Piara Singh, was at the centre of a storm in late 2001 after incidents of copies of the Guru Granth Sahib being burnt were blamed on him.</b> The sacrilege roused ire especially because in April that year, Piara Singh had authored a religious text, Bhavsagar Samundar Amar Bani Granth, which he placed upon the altar beside the Guru Granth Sahib.

Piara Singh directed his followers to worship this book as they did the original. His book was burnt, leading to an angry reprisal, with the sacred Sikh text also being burnt by his disciples. The fact that he claimed to be a divine avatar was equally unacceptable for the purists. <b>In 1998, the Akal Takht had excommunicated him. In 2001, he was again excommunicated after the new jathedar failed to induce him to explain his position.</b>

<b>In the present instance, the Sacha Sauda dera head Baba Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh stands accused of trying to impersonate Guru Gobind Singh as much as playing politics. He apparently directed his followers to support the Congress in the Assembly election, a decision that has proved counter-productive, with the Akali hardliners, now in power, said to be wreaking vengeance upon the dera. </b>

Indeed, some of the deras are charged with currying political favour and playing politics. Congress stalwart Buta Singh, for instance, is credited with helping Baba Piara Singh to expand his domain. Other important Sikh politicians also frequent popular babas by turns. The proposed ban on deras may, therefore, be just a fleeting reaction.
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There is something of a strong undercurrent for change in Sikhism. Now that the Islamic political force threat is no more the fissures are coming to the fore.

[Guest]

Whole region is going through flux, and changes are fast but ignored by rest of India. I think wrong people are making decision and politicians and external entities are influencing religion. Sikhs are allowing political interference.
There is no visible Sikh preacher who can reverse decline.
Idea of Punjabi Suba may fail.

[Guest]

Pretty disturbing cover story on Tehelka: In 2002, a woman devotee’s complaint of sexual exploitation by Baba Gurmeet Singh prompted a CBI inquiry into the charges

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pretty disturbing cover story on Tehelka: In 2002, a woman devotee’s complaint of sexual exploitation by Baba Gurmeet Singh prompted a CBI inquiry into the charges <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have lost faith on these type of sexual exploitation reporting, somehow in India this tool is used to exploit anyone, They have used against Shankaracharya, one well reputed priest in Bangalore, even Aasa Ram, I won't be surprised one angry woman come against Swami Ram dev.

If this is the case, I should expect more people should come out. I agree we should not reject such reporting but complete investigation is required.
This sexual exploitation is over used; even genuine case is seen with suspicion.
Either come with photo proof, audio or video recording.
Police had verified other crimes. No doubt DDS is supported by criminal element, politicians and external state.