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Historicity of Jesus - 2 - shamu - 12-24-2008
May be somebody should advice VHP to celebrate Dec 24th night as Mithrotsava and should add some elaborate pujas for Surya-bhagavan for his return. This should rather be a 3 day celebration: 23 - the longest night, 24 - his re birth and 25 - welcome celebration.
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Husky - 12-24-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->May be somebody should advice VHP to celebrate Dec 24th night as Mithrotsava and should add some elaborate pujas for Surya-bhagavan for his return. This should rather be a 3 day celebration: 23 - the longest night, 24 - his re birth and 25 - welcome celebration.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Why should our response - in our capacity as Hindus - be influenced at all? Is 25 December a traditional Hindu celebration of Surya Bhagavan? We already have Pongal/Makara Sankranti to commemorate our New Year and show our Surya how greatly we value and love him (not to mention the daily Surya Namaskarams many Hindus perform).
We are not Romans to suddenly adopt the fixed 25 December (which they themselves had to institute as a holy-day). Was this the traditional date among Persian followers of Mithras? And even then - beyond the wishful musings of the "Acharya S"-es of the world - was this the traditional date when *we* (Hindus) celebrated Surya?
We may choose to honour Roman memory and their celebration of Sol Invictus Mithras by celebrating the festival too, as we may also decide to celebrate Lupercalia - the Roman festival of love - on 15 February. But I was not aware that we were in need of turning 25 Dec into a *Hindu* festival. Randomly instituting festivals in this manner trivialises the meaningful, non-random Hindu festivals we do have, making them look arbitrary and reactionary in the association.
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 12-24-2008
Ramana,
Normative Ethics is like a fingerprint and cannot be obfuscated by back projection of a monotheist sensibility onto ancient history. Are we to believe that the Sikh Gurus were monotheist iconoclasts as propounded by some elements today; of course not, that account is merely British colonial instigation and re-interpretation. Monotheism, iconoclasm are all incidental in "Religion". The important part of "Ethical Monotheism" is the Ethical part and those critical fingerprints localize only to the Greeks. Look at works of gmirkin, wesselius, lemche for greek geopolitical origin of OT. So-called Egyptian monotheism is simply a point reinterpretation, same as seeing advaita or Sikhi as monotheism.
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 12-24-2008
This work is supposed to discuss the issue of animal souls and its significance in animal baiting in the Colloseum (built by Titus).
The Story of the Roman Amphitheatre
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Husky - 12-24-2008
^ Dhu's posts
Sorry to keep on about Rome and 25 December, but I forgot to mention something incidental. It may or may not have any bearing.
It's been many months since I watched it, but the BBC documentary Barbarians (with Terry Jones I think?) had an episode on Rome vs the Celts. While I had several faults to find in the series/points of disagreement (such as its trying to overcompensate for the unjust and unforgiveable Roman censureship/erasure of the Celts by slapping long-disproven accusations against Rome), there were informative things to be had in the series.
This particular episode was also about how during Julius Caesar's campaign against the Gauls of Bibracte etcetera, the Roman imperial propaganda against the Celts concealed what Julius was really after in his adversaries and their territory. Among his goals was the desire to obtain their means of keeping the date (calendar). The Celts were able to keep the year accurately, whereas Rome was so far off that the Romans were - am trying to recall what the presenter's phrase was - celebrating either "Harvest in winter" or "Saturnalia (timed close to winter solstice) in spring". People will have to watch Terryâs Barbarians themselves to confirm, but the point was that their timing had become very nonsensical.
Of course the populace must have been able tell when it was winter and when summer (weather and harvesting time being indicators for one), but the *official* dates for the festivities and holidays had been shifted due to the inaccuracy in Roman timekeeping.
The Celts, it was noted by the Roman intelligentsia, were dating their festival and other days accurately to the events of the heavens. And Julius would find out how and get a hold of their means. Far from being the savage barbarians that Rome officially projected them as, the point of the episode was that the Celts were quite capable in several respects (their Trading Empire spanned west to the British Isles and east into Anatolia where they had been harrying the Greeks for a while - Turkey's Ankara is apparently named for the Celtic Ancyra - while Rome's empire had for long remained confined to a smaller part of the Mediterranean). And the Celts moreover knew a few things the Romans didn't - the stone slab calendar used for timekeeping, for one. (Other things mentioned in the episode included the lack of gold in the Roman empire to mint coins at a time when there was a prodigious presence of Celtic coins: the Celts, it turned out, didn't merely acquire the gold from mercenary activities as was long believed thanks to Roman disinformation; rather they mined and minted it themselves, just as they smithied their own weapons. Just watch the documentary if possible, because some aspects were interesting, even if certain "conclusions" and "comments" in this and other episodes of this series were downright wrong.)
Eventually, Julius got his way: Gaul and the Continental Celtic trade empire was broken down, 2 million (was it?) "barbarians" persecuted, cut off from the main body and murdered. And the more accurate Julian calendar was instituted.
So until at least Julius Caesar's time, we don't know that the empire was able to *officially* celebrate any winter solstice festival at the correct time consistently.
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Shambhu - 12-31-2008
Just to check:
I hope everyone is having a happy <b><span style='color:blue'>Roman Holiday</span></b>..
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046250/
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Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 12-31-2008
Is there such a thing as an anti-euphemism? Terms like NWO, Illuminati (variants of the much feared 'conspiracy theory') are so outrageous that they (intend to) divert attention from the more mundane colonial project. 'Revelation' seems to be along these lines.
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 12-31-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-Shambhu+Dec 31 2008, 01:51 AM-->QUOTE(Shambhu @ Dec 31 2008, 01:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Just to check:
I hope everyone is having a happy <b><span style='color:blue'>Roman Holiday</span></b>..
[right][snapback]92465[/snapback][/right]
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By Titus, I am making a resolution to end this cult in the new year 2009. Indian Middle class should have enough international perspective to understand Titus thesis. Will start out with messages to Sandhya Jain and Rajeev Srinivasan on their sites. <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Shambhu - 12-31-2008
Dhu, that's the spirit!! <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 12-31-2008
Message left on Rajeev2004 site. Check.
I swear by Titus that if Sulekha was still functional at the time this historicity thread came online, this cult would have been finished by now.
How do you become a BR member? <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo--> <i>
(Moderators, we need a grace period for discussing other sites) </i>
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Shambhu - 12-31-2008
I've been spreading CM and other truth on Offstumped, Sandeepweb, rajeev etc for some time now. When I saw CM first (thru you, dhu!) I knew that it would take 5 yrs to build up some noise. jesusneverexisted has had better success so far. We have to keep on disseminating the sites without expectation of too much return. Returns will come in 2013.
As for BR, just do to the site and click on the appropriate buttons, I would guess...
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Husky - 01-05-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Dec 23 2008, 02:14 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Dec 23 2008, 02:14 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->It was in the second half of the 3rd century when Emperor Aurelian caused all of Rome to celebrate the birthday of Sol: 25 December became a holy-day. He elevated a religion that was already becoming rather popular into a religion with imperial patronage.[right][snapback]92131[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Some more about the existing worship of Sol before Aurelian elevated Sol to imperial God as Sol Invictus (after which, the imported Mithras and indigenous Sol would eventually get identified with each other):
http://www.christianism.com/articles/13.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->from: <b>The Cult of Sol Invictus</b>, Gaston H. Halsberghe, Brill, 1972.
"Once the arguments for and against an <b>autochthonous sun cult in Rome</b>Â have been weighed, it can only be concluded that the Romans worshipped and prayed to Sol as one of their Di indigites [(provisional) "local gods"]....There is no difficulty in placing the worship of the sun god in the earliest times, when it slowly took on a natural pattern and form determined by observation of the solar cycle....this was certainly the case for most of the groups that inhabited the Italian peninsula. Although it is the sun chariot and the solar disc that are most often found on rocks and in caves, the first traces of an anthropomorphic representation of the sun deity have also been found there. "
[...]
<b>"When mention is made of Sol Indiges [(provisional) "local sun god"], therefore, a sun god is meant who was worshipped in Rome as early as the fourth century B.C.</b>
Apart from this calendar ["oldiest [sic] calendar"], <b>[A] the oldest known evidence for formal worship of the sun god is provided by the representation on a Roman bigatus [coin with biga (two-horsed chariot)] dating from the Second Punic War [218 - 202 B.C.]3. [B] The figure of Sol in a chariot drawn by four horses [quadriga], as he was later usually portrayed, is found on a denarius of the gens Manlia struck in 135 B.C.4. " [27].</b>
(So the older depictions of Sol in Rome tended to be with 2 horses? And it was later that Sol got portrayed with 4 horses?)
[See: Greek Coins, Colin M. Kraay, Abrams, "[1966?]". Roman Coins, J.P.C. Kent, 1978 (1973 German). Etc.].
[See: #2, 20-22, 38-39 (numismatics)].<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 01-08-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->b) Of course, Lord God created man in his own image. God has given 'free will' to chose between God and Devil. We know the reference of 'free will' in religion that Christianity, Islam, Judaism are.
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Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 01-09-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Dec 31 2008, 02:36 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Dec 31 2008, 02:36 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Message left on Rajeev2004 site. Check.
I swear by Titus that if Sulekha was still functional at the time this historicity thread came online, this cult would have been finished by now.
How do you become a BR member? <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo--> <i>
(Moderators, we need a grace period for discussing other sites)Â </i>
[right][snapback]92483[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though go ahead and register at the site. they are allowing free e-mails now if recommeded by an existing memebr. I will.
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 01-10-2009
http://www.comecarpentier.com/mithya.htm
I wonder if Mythos, Misos etc wordplay is an inversion of Mithya, Maya from Buddhism. They would have created an Anti-Buddha, so to speak, for psy-ops purposes.
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 01-19-2009
Ramana, I have a sent an email to the BR webmaster about registering through yahoo mail. username: 'dhu'.
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 01-19-2009
Is there a 'Panchatantra' equivalent for 'Solomon advising the two mothers'?
..
Balagangadhara in his most recent ( tehelka? ) article explicitly implicates "power" and "colonialism" as motivations.
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 01-20-2009
congruence between christianity and (psyops associated with) the genocidal western narrative:
<b>Slumdog Millionaire: the prejudice continues?</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Back in the good old days when Satyajit Ray often made the most sublime neo-realistic cinema, one Ms. Nargis Dutt caustically charged him with selling Indian poverty abroad. Yet, Satyajit Ray"s films did not feature Calcutta"s slums but the villages of Bengal. There was an undercurrent of poverty in his major films like Pather Panchali, Aparajito and Pratidwandhi but there was human irony. No romanticizing poverty yet ultimately a resounding affirmation of human dignity. Who can forget the immortal scene in Aparajito where a guilt ridden Apu, a poor Brahmana boy rejects his priestly duties towards his mother"s last rites and opts to pursue a modern education instead. Ray"s father was a Brahmo and he himself a recalcitrant Hindu, yet his cinema encompassed everything that represented the best and the worst of Indian civilization ethos.
Through the vicissitudes of times, India has emerged as a global economy shedding both its Nehruvian rate of growth and the associated stereotypes, although we are admittedly a third world country with sub Saharan level hunger and human development indices. Yet, a share of its misfortune may be attributed to being surrounded by two failed states whose burdens of jihadi terrorism and poverty India has to suffer. Even the slum is an artificial socio-political construct and misrepresents Indian poverty. Indian slums have unpaid electricity accounts yet even today thousands of Indian villages wait electrification; slums have NGOs operating in vain while villages still await their first permanent school buildings. Slums create and sustain criminals yet millions of Indian villages represent a morally and ethical superior way of life and hospitality. Slums in India are infested by some over 30-40 million illegal Bangladeshi migrants who constitute a sizable secular votebank.
But contemporary film making seems to have appreciated little of these ground realities; instead we find a rehash of the old and improbable rags to riches story in an ultra-regressive style. A magnificent Mumbai slum, two Muslim brothers, a Hindu mob killing innocent Muslim women, criminally amputated children singing Surdas"s songs, Hindu policemen torturing an innocent Muslim boy and a diabolic Hindu game-show host who hands his Muslim contestant to his Hindu police which hates the Amnesty international, and voila, you have all the ingredients for a "secular" potboiler which is on the road to the Oscars! You might argue that it"s not realistic but only fantasy since there is greater probability of winning the jackpot on a lottery ticket without being abused by the police than winning the top prize on a quiz show with 15 unique questions.
But then you can be kidding with the graphic depiction of blood curdling anti Muslim riot in which a Hindu mob slits the children"s mother, the Indian policeman electrocuting the Muslim suspect or the gory scene of the amputation of the street children by the mafia who are then forced to sing Surdas"s bhajans. T<b>he book by Vikas Swarup has the main protagonist named as Ram Mohammad Thomas who was conveniently transformed into a Muslim boy, Jamal Malik who lost his mother to a Hindu mob </b>to make it sound in the author"s own confession more "politically correct."
When was the last time in Indian History when an unprovoked Hindu population took to violence? For the record the Mumbai riots were incited by fanatical Muslim mobs in the face of the Baburi Masjid demolition. Moreover, it beats me how the consequent Mumbai bomb blasts triggered by local Muslim gangs can be disassociated from the Mumbai riots? And the much maligned Bombay Police recently lost sixteen of its bravest men while defending the city"s freedom of speech and expression against Islamist zealots who wanted to replicate in India, a 7th century Arabia.
More disturbingly, you have the depiction of the blue bodied Rama whom Hindus consider as Maryada Puroshottam [the best among men] threatening to terminate the existence of the innocent Muslim children. To a question on with which weapons is Lord Rama depicted with in popular iconography, Jamal Malik the protagonist does not remember the grand Ram Lilas which happen across the country or Ram Kathas on televisions. Instead, a Hindu kid dressed like immaculately like Lord Rama stand in the mid of a slum in a threatening pose. And one cannot miss the hatred being portrayed in the face and looks of that young Hindu kid, younger than even Jamaal. Even a 5 year old Hindu kid is a communal bigot and Rama is responsible for all the communal crap. Muslims are seculars and victims by definition. And we need one white director to tell these things to the whole world. Not only this we have forcibly amputated children singing Surdas"s bhajan pining for a glimpse of illusory Krishna? This insensitive jaundiced anti Hindu view is reminiscent of Indian leftist cinema where Hindu male characters are black and Muslims white! Remember, Mr and Mrs Iyer where a Hindu mob was searching for circumcised dicks and didn"t even spare a Jew in true Nazi fashion! Never mind that in world history, Hindus are the only people who don"t carry an atom of anti-Semitism, but the director"s flight of "secularist" fancy won critical acclaim. Buddhadeb Bhattacharya in his film Uttara shows a band of Hindu goons burning a Christian church made in service of the lord"s lepers and raping an orphan girl in the process. Expectedly, this rather original gruesome way of story-telling won him the national awards! In the Tamil hit, Dasavathaaram, we find an anti-historical situation fantasizing Shaivite intolerance against Vaishnavs where Ramanujam"s disciple is shown fighting Kulothunga Chola. Based on a solitary description of Chola antagonism in Ramanujam"s writings, we discover the Chola fanatic stealing the idol of Vishnu from Srirangam, ironically the same temple complex which was plundered at least five times by Islamic armies. Similarly, Kamal Hassan in his movie "Anbe Sivam", shows a pious Shiva devotee injuring the hero who is rescued by a group of benevolent Christian nuns. Previously, in the 70s when anti-Brahmana movement in Tamil Nadu was at its peak, we had Brahmana priests routinely paraded as rascals in Tamil movies.
"Islamic" sensitivities have extracted book bans from both British and Congress governments. Girja Kumar in his "Book on Trial" has reproduced dozens of cases where Hindu books critical of Islam or the Prophet were banned, and the authors faced arrest or were killed. Salman Rushdie"s flight and Taslima Nasrin"s plight is well known. Lajja almost faced a ban because she had exposed the genocide against Hindus in Bangladesh. Movies on the state of Kashmiri pundits, victims of Islamic genocide against Hindus of Bangladeshis, the Hindu victims of the North East against Christian separatism and also the historical crimes by the armies of Islam and inquisitory Christianity are taboo in a "secular country" They cannot see the light of the day because they are inimical to communal harmony and hurt minority sentiments.
This ostentatious display of anti Hindu sentiment is of course lost on the jingoists or those ABCDs who go gaga over such pernicious cinema. Sincere critics questioning the dumb plot where a slum boy grows up into a sophisticated leftist JNU product with a flawless English accent are censured by appealing to the authority of the Golden globe awards. They keenly forget the film was precisely designed for that, appeal to the racial sensitivities of those who really matter! Therefore, even the liberation of Jamal is not through out of any indigenous worth, but through an internationally funded poverty alleviation game show [Kaun Banega Crorepati recedes into its international avatar, Who wants to become a millionaire].
Saurav Basu<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is interesting that the filmmaker has taken an original hindu character (as characterized by a sepoy hindu) -and- turned him into a muslim. capitulation is victory. the sepoy is a revolutionary.
There is no record of Jewish iconoclasm of Roman Dieties. In fact, they destroy only their own native Deities; there is only one realistic explanation; the entire jewish iconoclastic narrative is in fact a revisionist history for the phoenician sword arm of the persians, implemented by the Empire. added: The discontinuity between Judaism and Christianity reflects a discontinuity between the Greek and Roman overlords. Islam's love affair with Iskandar and its Roman Empire rhetoric is another transfer, unclear at the moment.
The deracinated native (the muslim) is aggrieved by the native ancestor, and the Gora is missing from the film narrative with only a obliquely suggested presence in the form of missionaries.
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 01-20-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no record of Jewish iconoclasm of Roman Dieties. In fact, they destroy only their own native Deities; there is only one realistic explanation; <b>the entire jewish iconoclastic narrative is in fact a revisionist history for the phoenician sword arm of the persians, implemented by the Empire.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please explain this slowly.
Thanks, ramana
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 01-20-2009
Jewish characterization in Roman annals reflects the type of stereotypy employed against, for example, "brahmins". When viewed against the background of Roman authorship of the Gospels (which must have been a major imperialist project), these characterizations seem less "descriptive" and more "propaganda-motivated". (In contrast, Dharmic "texts" also notice black and white colorations, but these are always descriptive and non-normative observations). Manetho's (Alexandrian) anti-semitic text is not descriptive but intricately devised propaganda, as vaguely suggested by the author Russell Gmirkin. In the gospels, the Roman authors built upon this Greek anti-semitic strand in Manetho.
Phoenician ships were used in the Persian attacks against the mainland. Hannibal retreated to Persian provinces straddling the Black Sea - Bithynia, pontus and the like. Archaeology suggests polytheism in Judea and Israel; the histories of these regions were erased by the two (Greco-Roman) Empires and replaced by martial race, AIT-type narratives against the Phoenican/Pharisees.