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Khairlanji Massacre
#41
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you have a source or a link for that claim? That is valuable information, if it can be corroborated<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Initially, it was in local newspapers, can't find now. But wait it will come out again as rape was added later.
This brutal incidence was hijacked by ultra leftist and RPI.
#42
Mudyji, everyone worth his/her salt is exploiting the incident. Some are using it to push the their Dalit agenda. Others are defending it claiming it is OBC vs Dalit. Think about it Mudyji, do you think that the brutality faced by the family and the women had nothing to do with being absolute low castes in the village?
#43
utepian: What's the root cause of this issue? From my little reading on this subject (to gory for me to even read this) it started as a dispute over money?
#44
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Think about it Mudyji, do you think that the brutality faced by the family and the women had nothing to do with being absolute low castes in the village? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Day before yesterday 4 guys raped school girl in delhi in running van. Should we call it a caste incidence or crime or lust or girls are available to get raped. Did media report this based on caste? They dumped girl in semi naked condition near Janakpuri, New delhi. Seems like girls is from upper caste so no riots or no cry from NGO. Only difference is this girl is raped by four guys and was not killed, in case of Khairlanji they were not raped but murdered by sticks and chain.

Khairlanji incidence had nothing to with caste it was feud over money and so-called false or biased court statement. It was nothing to do with caste. Caste came later.

Crime should be treated like a crime and law should be enforced equally and every individual should be treated with dignity and equality.
#45
Viren, Mudy,

Outside of the world of Dalit, Congressi, Commie, Sanghi "politics", the world of the Dalit is brutally repressive. In fact not just Dalits, but for anyone languishing in the bottom pit of the rural pseudo-social order that in more than one way bases itself on caste. Slurs in Hindi like <i>"badhjaat", "neech"</i> do not just arise in vacuum. They are meant to hurt the innermost psyche of the abused party. It is an abuse on their character, dignity and their <i>atman</i>. Crimes against them also follow a similar nature. A murder is not simply a murder, but brutal. The death is not simple hacking, but must be accompanied by complete denuding of character. The oppressor in this case has complete confidence that it is kosher to humiliate the abused even in death.

If the perpetrators of the crime had stealthily hacked this family in the cover of the night with Hitchcockian perfection, this would not have been a caste related murder. Just like you say - about money. But they did it in broad daylight, complete with the presence of elders and others of from the lower castes. It is not the motive (money) but the method (complete humiliation of the family and the message to others) that makes this a caste crime.

When atrocities such as these occur the reaction from the political quarters are usually predictable. The Udit Rajs of the Dalits take the opportunity to heap abuse on Hinduism, the parivaris look for defensive escape routes such as "money was the motive", "there was no official rape", "lower caste vs lower caste"(as if they were guilty), Congressis respond with more irrational policies, Naxals are probably more compassionate but blow up some completely unrelated family in another state for vengeance, NGOs and media care a hoot because no big heads are involved.

That caste related crimes have sanction of <i>Sanatana Dharma</i> is a shallow refuge of commies and their like and must be defended. But to arrogantly state that caste related crimes do not exist, that this particular incident was not one, that comparisons with other cases makes this an unworthy case is being unnecessarily defensive, digressive and dishonest. If at all, parivaris should be open to the fact. Bajrangis seem to have plenty of time punching romeos or policing behind the bush romantic interludes. Shouldn’t their energy be focused on real life and much larger humiliations of women and children?

The right-wing writers care little too. Just one article worth mention in this thread addresses the issue correctly, rather caustically and with no pretensions of guilt. It is post #4 on this thread by Chandrabhan Prasad in the Pioneer and I quote the relevant portion:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Atrocities on Dalits follow a pattern, often of a pan-India nature. Most Dalit killings are accompanied by inflicting humiliations. For instance, if the caste society decides to rape a Dalit woman, or target her dignity, attempts are made that more and more people came to know of it. That's the reason a rape is preceded by stripping the victim. Sometimes, there will be no physical injury, only humiliation. The idea is to convey a message - that, Dalits ought to know their social positioning. The Khairlanji medievalism is just one case in point. Such acts of barbarism are common all over India and it is just that this savagery caught the media attention and we are shocked."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Similarly when the Jhajjar masacres happened only the one Varsha Bhosle said it like it should have been said.

When such incidents happen, it is very easy to get carried away by propaganda - offensive Dalit and defensive Parivari. Please let us get beyond that. At the very least let us be careful in making bold declarations in absolving caste. Surekha's 17 year-old daughter aspired to join the NDA and serve the nation in uniform. The humiliation she suffered in death should not be muddied with the cloudy fluff of political declarations and politically motivated official announcements.
#46
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->That caste related crimes have sanction of Sanatana Dharma is a shallow refuge of commies and their like and must be defended. But to boldly state that caste related crimes do not exist, that this particular incident was not one, that comparisons with other cases makes this an unworthy case is being unnecessarily defensive, digressive and dishonest. If at all, parivaris should be open to the fact. Bajrangis seem to have plenty of time punching romeos or policing behind the bush romantic interludes. Shouldn’t their energy be focused on real life and much larger humiliations of women and children?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why drag parivars when they were not related? Why put burden on Bajrangis and not commies, naxal and other idiots who roam free?
Why no noise on brutal murder of girl in Singur? I hope you will not say it was parivar or Hindus responsibility to protect her.
My question is why selective? Why treat one crime with caste mirror and other with lust or social issue? Crime is a crime Period. It should be treated like a crime.
There is a tendency among Indians to put blame on religion. Easy escape, caste and blame on parivar.
If you treat this as a caste crime then why afraid of when reality comes out that it is a status war or issue was money.

Major problem in India is law, Order and politicians. Both are exploiting citizens.
Why you are not making noise on Delhi rape or kidnapping of Brahmins in MP?
Are they less human? or they should have divine protection from God or they are responsibility of Parivar or they are men and other is daughter of middle class family.
In rural or any part of world class war exist, those with white gloves hands are symbol of class discrimination. Class/status will remain its human nature.

In India these type of incidence can be stopped only when it will be treated like a crime and punishment will be served according to law without discrimination.
It is society responsibilty not some group.
#47
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Similarly when the Jhajjar masacres happened only the one Varsha Bhosle said it like it should have been said.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well evidently Varsha was mistaken as the following old news reports about the incident show:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->'Police, not caste behind Jhajjar lynching'

NEW DELHI: In a preliminary report, the National SC and ST Commission has said
that it was the police that were primarily responsible for the lynching of
Dalits in Jhajjar, that caste was not a factor and that the incident was an
accident and not motivated.

``The police killed them to hide their fault,'' Chairman of the Commission Bijoy
Sonkar Shastri told this website's newspaper. ``The families of the victims came
here and they told us the police wanted bribe and when they did not succeed,
they killed the five Dalits.''

Pinning responsibility on the local policemen for the lynching, Shastri said the
police were aware the victims were Dalits but did nothing to save them. ``They,
in fact, helped in the lynching,'' he charged. He also said the arrests made so
far in the case were a mere eyewash while the real culprits are yet to be
arrested.

The Commission believes the victims' caste was not a factor at all in their being targeted by an ``ordinary'' mob and that the incident was an ``accident''
and ``not motivated''. ``Anti-social elements'' helped by the police created an atmosphere of suspicion by spreading rumours that five men had killed cows,
provoking a crowd of people returning from a fair, Shastri said. ``The people did not attack the five men because they knew that they were Dalits but because they were told that they had killed cows,'' he added.

Asked whether there was any evidence of the VHP inciting the crowd, Shastri
said: ``No such evidence has been found.''

Though a comprehensive report is yet to be prepared, among the recommendations the Commission has made are compensation for the Dalit families, action against the police and guidelines to avoid a repeat of the incident.

Shastri was a BJP MP from Varanasi before he joined the Commission as its
chairman. ``I am also from the SC/ST and during my term as MP, always kept their interests in mind,'' he said.

http://www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.asp?I...+Stories&\
rLink=0<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->No Dalit factor in Jhajjar lynching, police helped
mob: SC/ST Commission

Press Trust of India

New Delhi, November 28: In a crucial twist to the lynching of five
Dalits at Jhajjar in Haryana, the National SC and ST Commission has
held that the victim's caste was not a factor for their being
targeted by an "ordinary" mob and that the incident was an "accident" and "not
motivated".
The Commission has sent a report, detailing the events of the
incident and its recommendations, to the government.

The Commission charged that "anti-social elements" helped by the
"police" had created an atmosphere of suspicion by spreading that the
five men had killed cows provoking "an ordinary" crowd of people who
were returning from a fair.
"The people did not attack the five men because they knew that they
were Dalits but because they were told that they had killed cows,"
Commission Chairman Bijay Sonkar Shastri said.
VHP has widely been accused of masterminding the incident despite
repeated denials by it.
"The people who attacked the five Dalits were returning after
watching a fair and must surely have included Dalits as generally people from
such castes watch fairs," Shastri said.
"Had they known that the victims were Dalits, the members of their
caste would not have participated in the attack."
"So the Dalit factor was surely not a motive for the attack," he
asserted.
Shastri pinned responsibility on the local policemen for the
lynching, alleging that they were aware that the victims were Dalits but did
nothing to save them. "They, in fact, helped in the lynching," he
charged.
He said the Commission had recommended to the government to give
adequate compensation to the victims' kins and improve law and order
in Jhajjar.

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=17234<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Jhajjar villagers clash with police
Thursday, November 14, 2002 (Jhajjar):
Revati Laul and Manvendar Gautam


The situation in Jhajjar in Haryana remains volatile after the police
clashed with a mob of 150 villagers yesterday.

This correspondent and camera-person Manavendra Gautam, whose camera
was later snatched from him, were caught in the middle of the riot
between agitated villagers and the police following the arrest of
five men from Sura village.

They are suspects in the murder of five Dalits at Dullena village on
Dussehra last month. The killing on October 15 was sparked off by a
rumour that the men had killed a cow.

The police had in fact decided to play it safe and waited an entire
month for tempers to calm before arresting five people from its list
of 25 suspects. But they were attacked by the villagers demanding the
release of the arrested men.

"I cannot even begin to imagine what it would have been like if we
had reacted earlier. I think it was much less than what we thought it
would be if we had made arrests earlier," said Mohammed Akil,
Superintendent of Police, Jhajjar, Haryana.

The mob resorted to throwing stones and bricks at the police who then
lobbed teargas shells and used baton charge to control the situation.

Several villagers in fact justify last month's killing. In this
largely upper caste Jat-dominated area, cow protection is a highly
emotive issue and even rumours can lead to riots.

"The people who killed the cows are guilty," says a villager, while
another person adds, "we will not spare the cow killers."

The villagers say last month's killing was carried out by a mob of
nearly 3,000 people and ask how the police could have narrowed down
on the suspects to a handful of people.

Police say they have eyewitness accounts to back their claims.

What makes the picture more complex is the fact that it's not a case
of lower caste Dalits being targeted by upper castes. The mob was
made up of both Dalits and upper caste villagers - men, women and
children.

When the riot was over, there were injuries both among the mob and
the police. Though the villagers eventually retreated into their
homes, police are aware that it's a fragile peace in Jhajjar that may
not hold in the face of an even minor provocation.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivili...n/message/28520<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Jhajjar crisis: More arrests likely, agitation continues

Radhika Bordia

Friday, November 15, 2002 (Jhajjar, Haryana):

There have been renewed protests in Jhajjar in Haryana, with hundreds
of villagers blocking roads in the area.

Yesterday, the villagers set a police post ablaze and today they
continue to resist the arrests of those allegedly responsible for the
murder of five Dalits last month.

Ten people have been arrested so far for their involvement in
lynching five Dalits last month following a rumour that they were
skinning a cow.

Adding fuel to fireÂ…

Yesterday, as villagers blocked all routes to the town for the second
consecutive day demanding the release of the arrested men, they
raised slogans about cow protection. The blockade held up trucks
carrying fodder for cattle in drought-hit Rajasthan.

By afternoon a Mahapanchayat from 50 surrounding villages met to
decide how to keep the agitation going.

One by one each pradhan and sarpanch spoke, each trying to outdo the
other in the inflammatory content of their speech and trying to
ensure that tension continues to simmer in the name of cow protection.

Acharya Vijaypal, Gurukul, Jhajjar, said, "The cow is sacred to us
and so no one could bear to see it being killed the way it was. Now
we will intensify our agitation and if need be, sacrifice our lives
for it."

Protecting cows has become an emotive issue in this region, seen as
an Arya Samaji bastion. The villagers here thus become an easy target
for Hindutva groups.

On the defensive

Jhajjar being a reserved constituency, there is an attempt to draw
Dalits into the agitation. Some of them were even urged to speak to
the media as proof that the attacks were not targeted at Dalits.

"I'm a Dalit sarpanch and I can tell you that it was not directed at
any particular community, but was the consequence of the bad actions
of those who killed the cow," said one Dalit leader.

The district police also believe the killings were not initially
targeted at the Dalits per se. "I don't think Dalits were
specifically targeted. The lynching mob was shouting slogans, saying
that those skinning the cow should not be allowed to go free and
should be killed," said Mohammad Akil, Superintendent of Police,
Jhajjar.

When asked if it was true that the mob was mobilized on the rumour
that five Muslims were skinning the cow, Akil replied in the
affirmative.

In the past one month, Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Mayawati's visit
to the families of the victims of the lynching mob and the alleged
conversion to Buddhism of about 10 Dalits in protest of the lynching
has made this a more complex issue.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivili...n/message/28529<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So Varsha should check her sources again.

Did you ever hear the media report that 8 Dalit Hindus were hacked to death by Muslims when Marad happened?

But it reports everything as a caste thing when Hindus are involved even if the incident has nothing at all to do with caste just like the Jhajjar incident, the mob lynched them not because they were Dalits but because they thought they killed a cow, if Jats were part of the accused they would have lynched them along with the Dalits.
#48
Why do I want Parivar to be involved?

Because, the perpetrators of caste crimes falsely justify their actions in the name of Dharma.

Because if the parivar must grow and dharma be solidified - lower castes or truly downtrodden must be empowered. Truly empowered does not mean shilanyas of Ram Mandir by Dalits but protection of people like Surekha.

No I cannot trust Commies to do the abve two. Yes, I'd sure expect Parivar to do it.

Why are you bent upon showing this as *not* a caste crime?
What has this got to do with any other case? Yes I do feel uncomfortable if the rationale for this *not* being a caste crime is because someone (not me) thinks some brahmin in Delhi being murdered is not a caste crime. (Frankly I dont even what you are talking about)
#49
What is the point Bharatvarsh? (and others)

That caste related crimes simply do not exist in India?

That it is all how the media paints but really there is no such thing?

That all crimes simply occur between power structures, and that these power structures have absolutely nothing to do with caste?

That disputes between power strutures result in absolutely similar crimes - in terms of public humilation, brutality and arrogance?

That proportion of upper caste atrcoties over lower caste is same as lower caste over upper caste?
#50
I can ask you the same question, why are you bent on proving this is a caste based crime, so everything involving Dalits has to do with caste?

The jhajjar incident had nothing at all to do with caste and look at how it was distorted by the media.

Who says that caste crimes don't happen but not everything being done has to do with caste and neither does it have to be.

Just because Varsha said something doesn't make it true.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->That proportion of upper caste atrcoties over lower caste is same as lower caste over upper caste?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First define what upper caste is because from what I know that means the FC's.

If that is the case then the reality is that "the proportion of OBC atrocities over SC's is far greater than the proportion of upper caste atrocities on SC's".

The 15 people booked in this atrocity were all OBC but they have now become upper castes, but come next elections they will go back to being OBC's needing reservations to uplift themselves.

Everytime Dalits are mentioned it has something to do with caste as if they have no other existence other than being there to be opressed by others, everything involving Dalits does not have to do with caste.
#51
Due to malevolence and laziness media paints any violence having a dalit victims as a caste atrocity, however the fact remains a lot of violence is aimed to humiliate the dalits.

When some upper caste Hindus point out with glee, see we did not do this the OBC's did it, they nicely fall into the trap laid out for them.

When many Hindus simply deny, one the basis of some wrong reports, that caste based atrocities take place, they again fall into the trap, how can you solve a problem that does not exist.

It is the duty of Hindu nationalists to put their best foot forward and solve these atrocities on fellow Hindus. There should be organizations other than the Dalit Freedom Network to help Dalits right?
#52
Bharatvarsh, I do believe this was a case of Surekha a low caste woman asserting her land-rights against village upper-castes (only relatively) who were landlords. A way she’d dared to crave for self-esteem and dignity.

I can tell media distortions too, but in laying everything out simply - why is the above so unbelievable?
#53
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->First define what upper caste is because from what I know that means the FC's.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

True - and that I think is the mistake. Per me, any Tom/Dick/Harry assumes a higher position or position of power in the rural mileu based on what I already called a pseudo-social-hierarchy still based on caste. For example, in this village the Landlords were OBCs really, but are above in the pecking order with Dalits but act like say Bhumihars in Bihar.
#54
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Due to malevolence and laziness media paints any violence having a dalit victims as a caste atrocity, however the fact remains a lot of violence is aimed to humiliate the dalits.

When some upper caste Hindus point out with glee, see we did not do this the OBC's did it, they nicely fall into the trap laid out for them.

When many Hindus simply deny, one the basis of some wrong reports, that no caste based atrocities take place, they again fall into the trap, how can you solve a problem that does not exist.

It is the duty of Hindu nationalists to put their best foot forward and solve these atrocities on fellow Hindus. There should be organizations other than the Dalit Freedom Network to help Dalits right?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of violence may indeed be aimed to humiliate Dalits but not everything is and when people try to paint it as if it's the only truth then we have a problem, look at Varsha Bhosle writing on Jhajjar, everyone's perception of it is that of a caste atrocity which is far from reality, so how do we know if the media hasn't distorted other so called violence against Dalit incidents.

So would it be okay if I start reporting every murder of a Brahmin as a caste atrocity?

Some upper caste Hindus point out facts about the OBC involvement because the very next day these people will go back to being OBC but when an atrocity happens they are reported as upper castes, so what do you expect people to do, take the blame for things they didn't do, one day we are supposed to accept that Kunbi's are upper caste but the very next day we are supposed to recognize that they are the opressed OBC's, if this is not blatant lying by the media then I don't know what is.

I can't accept distorted lies by the media just to be politically correct, I don't believe that I have to accept propaganda to solve a problem, I will recognize a caste atrocity when caste is really involved such as the recent controversy over entry of Dalits into the Jagannath mandir not when caste is not a factor in an incident such as the one at Jhajjar.
#55
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Why are you bent upon showing this as *not* a caste crime?
What has this got to do with any other case? Yes I do feel uncomfortable if the rationale for this *not* being a caste crime is because someone (not me) thinks some brahmin in Delhi being murdered is not a caste crime. (Frankly I dont even what you are talking about) <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it is not. It was a dispute over land and money.
If you think this is caste crime then why rape of priest wife, mother of two, outside temple in Delhi by Yadav is not a caste crime. Why any abuse against upper caste women is treated as common crime but crime against lower caste is always a caste based crime?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(Frankly I dont even what you are talking about)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two days back a upper caste school girl was kidnapped on road near bus stop in West Delhi, and was rapped in moving van by four guys and dumped in half naked condition in Janakpuri, Delhi. Yes, had it dalit girl, it would have made headlines in every newspaper and very easily it would be called as Caste-crime.

I have experienced how people exploit a simple crime and give different color according to their leaning.
If you have not read before, my experience, let me write again. When I was in school, I along with other girls was on the way to bus stop. One clinically mentally challenged man jumped on one girl and dragged her to road side. People on road stopped and separated that man. Now how this incidence was twisted. Girl was a Muslim and man was Hindu, it started Muslim Hindu riots within 24 hours, half of the city was under curfew. Girl’s parents were forced to remove her from school in between session and married her immediately even her father was from armed forces. Man who was recently released by mental hospital and was sent back.
All of us were wearing same school dress, only difference; she was taller and was behind me while we were walking.

This case was fully exploited by media and religious goons. 5-6 people lost life and lot of people lost shops and houses.
My parents never pulled me out of school. It should not be treated as Hindus parents let their girls to get raped/molested.

So look crime as a crime, you can give any color its your choice.
#56
I am just putting up a post of mine from a month ago, because it seems to be relevant to the argument.
<!--QuoteBegin-vishwas+Nov 23 2006, 12:21 PM-->QUOTE(vishwas @ Nov 23 2006, 12:21 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Reading through the story, this is not even a caste atrocity:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
The immediate provocation for the mostly non-dalit villagers was that Surekha and Priyanka had testified against 15 of them in a case of beating up of one Siddharth Gajbhiye - also a Dalit and a kin of Surekha - earlier that month.

In a belated action on Siddharth's complaint, the police had arrested the 15 villagers Sep 29 and released them on bail the same day.

Siddharth, a well-to-do Dalit and 'police patil' of the neighbouring village, often stood by Bhotmanges and interceded on their behalf in a long drawn land dispute.

Accompanied by some 40 others immediately on being freed on bail, the 'implicated' 15 marched straight to Bhotmange's house and butchered the family in an orgy of violence that lasted two hours.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, there is this:
1. a land dispute
2. the mother and daughter had testified against 15 of the villagers in a criminal complaint.
3. the "implicated 15" - implicated in the criminal complaint as noted above - were mainly involved in the rape-murder.
4. Nothing happened to the other 2 "dalit" and ST families in the village, as far as I can tell.

In effect, this family was pinpointed for this crime, because of longstanding disputes between the family and some of the other villagers.
[right][snapback]61204[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plus, now we know (from the CBI chargesheet) that they were not raped as was alleged by the Dalit activists. As well, of the "implicated 15" in the above news report, only 11 were actually involved.
#57
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bharatvarsh, I do believe this was a case of Surekha a low caste woman asserting her land-rights against village upper-castes (only relatively) who were landlords. A way she’d dared to crave for self-esteem and dignity.

I can tell media distortions too, but in laying everything out simply - why is the above so unbelievable?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
utepian did you even see me once mention Khairlanji incident, my only post was in response to the mention of Jhajjar which clearly was not caste based, I have not said anything about this incident precisely because I haven't yet formed an opinion of what it is "a caste based atrocity" or "a simple case of land dispute", I only comment when I have a strong opinion backed up by evidence which is why I wanted to correct the perception that people have of Jhajjar.

I never denied that caste based atrocities happen but things are not clear cut since I stopped trusting the media ever since they distorted Jhajjar, the recent case of the prevention of Dalits from entering the Jagannath kovil is a clear case involving caste but not everything involving Dalits has to do with caste as I learned the hard way after Jhajjar.
#58
<!--QuoteBegin-utepian+Dec 29 2006, 11:17 PM-->QUOTE(utepian @ Dec 29 2006, 11:17 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Why do I want Parivar to be involved?
Because, the perpetrators of caste crimes falsely justify their actions in the name of Dharma.
[right][snapback]62552[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are we still talking about the particular case of Khairlanji here? I haven't yet heard any of the accused defending his actions in the name of Dharma. Please give us any links or sources you may have.
#59
<!--QuoteBegin-utepian+Dec 30 2006, 12:05 AM-->QUOTE(utepian @ Dec 30 2006, 12:05 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->First define what upper caste is because from what I know that means the FC's.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

True - and that I think is the mistake. <b>Per me, any Tom/Dick/Harry assumes a higher position or position of power in the rural mileu based on what I already called a pseudo-social-hierarchy still based on caste.</b> For example, in this village the Landlords were OBCs really, but are above in the pecking order with Dalits but act like say Bhumihars in Bihar.
[right][snapback]62559[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with this definition is: in the Khairlanji instance, all the villagers (Dalits, Powars and Kalars) appear to be small to marginal farmers. (I am merely inferring this from the news reports, did not actually see it in the reports). No one is really a major landlord. So, one or more communities came into a position of power, not because of any economic superiority, but by their numerical majority.

Again, this is an inference: from the point of view of the powars and the kalars, the dalits are not really dalits, they are mahars, simply members of one more community in the village. Another thing, there may be a pecking order in the village, but to interpret the pecking order as an issue of caste (in the scriptural sense of varna) doesn't make sense. It is simply not an accurate reflection of reality.
#60
<!--QuoteBegin-"Vishwas+ you said"-->QUOTE("Vishwas @ you said")<!--QuoteEBegin-->"In effect, this family was pinpointed for this crime, because of longstanding disputes between the family and some of the other villagers."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You are true till the above point. Read my post again.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If the perpetrators of the crime had stealthily hacked this family in the cover of the night with Hitchcockian perfection, this would not have been a caste related murder. Just like you say - about dispute. But they did it in broad daylight, complete with the presence of elders and others of from the lower castes. It is not the motive (money) but the method (complete humiliation of the family and the message to others) that makes this a caste crime.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

While you are precise on why the family was targetted, why are you ignoring the qualitative nature of the crime? The more important fact that the male of the family was left alone after witnessing the crime.

I sense a great deal of intransigence from members on the board to call it a caste related crime. There is call for technical details, there is a sense that I somehow am proposing something preposterous by calling it a caste related crime. Why is it difficult to think that some arrogant landlords were completely outraged by a lower caste family owning land, intimidating them at first and when that did not work hacking them in such a way that they and their cohorts will remember for generations!


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