Historicity of Jesus - 2

[ramana]

History Channel had a 3-D reconstruction of Jesus from the "shroud of Turin". Very desperate. One question wasn't the shroud proven questionable?

[dhu]

Rajeev Srinivasan's comment on the below article:



carthago delenda est: exactly like pak's single-minded obsession with india.

The rise and fall of Carthage

Rival to Rome

Myth and the making of history



The Economist



Carthage Must Be Destroyed: The Rise and Fall of an Ancient Civilisation. By Richard Miles. Allen Lane; 521 pages



IT IS ironic that the most famous event in the history of Carthage is a land journey, for the Carthaginians were fundamentally a seafaring nation. Their fleets dominated the Mediterranean and they grew rich through trade and the establishment of colonies in Sicily, Sardinia and Cyprus. There was abundant cause, though, for Hannibal, a Carthaginian general, to take the land route across the Pyrenees and Alps to Rome in the winter of 218BC. Hannibal had long been campaigning in Spain and invading from the north added an element of surprise. But the principal reason for not making the short sea crossing from Africa to Italy was that by then the Romans had replaced the Carthaginians as the masters of the Mediterranean.



Before the Carthaginians came the Phoenicians, the great merchants from Tyre in modern Lebanon. To satisfy the appetite of the Assyrians they created the silver routes and established a number of cities such as Gades (Cadiz). Their greatest legacy, though, was a colony in what is now Tunisia. Its renown would soon come to outshine that of its parent.



Carthage would itself be eclipsed by Rome but, as Richard Miles recounts, its existence and the rivalry it provided were essential to the growth of Rome and the way in which it sought to project its image. From the beginning, myth and history were intertwined. In the “Aeneid” Virgil describes the doomed love affair between Dido, Queen of Carthage, and Aeneas, the son of Venus and legendary forefather of the Romans, who on his journey from Troy to Italy has been washed up on the shores of her city. Ironically, the way in which Aeneas abandons Dido in favour of his preordained fate is characteristic of Carthaginian treachery.



Virgil was aware of the value of myth in establishing the divine antecedents of Augustus’s expanding empire. And he was not alone in employing it to emphasise the interlocking fortunes of the two nations. Earlier writers had claimed that Rome and Carthage were founded in the same year, 753BC. In order to establish their credentials within the Hellenic world the Carthaginians conflated the Greek hero, Heracles (better known as Hercules), with Melqart, his Tyrian counterpart. Hannibal, a master of propaganda eager to create a reputation to equal that of Alexander the Great, followed the Herculean route to Italy. The Romans were severely tested in the three Punic wars but their struggles against a worthy, if barbaric and perfidious, enemy were a necessary feature of their emergence as the dominant power.



Hannibal was a heroic figure and a superb tactician. But he was ultimately overcome by Scipio Africanus, an equally brilliant commander, who learned much of tactics and propaganda from his opponent and whose nation possessed a unique determination and resilience. Mr Miles has skilfully fused the works of ancient historians such as Polybius and Livy, a wide range of modern studies and recent archaeological research to create a convincing and enthralling narrative.

[G.Subramaniam]

[quote name='ramana' date='31 March 2010 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1270011425' post='105560']

History Channel had a 3-D reconstruction of Jesus from the "shroud of Turin". Very desperate. One question wasn't the shroud proven questionable?

[/quote]





The shroud was dated to 1000 AD

[dhu]

Why did they need proof in the christian fortress that was medieval europe?

[ramana]

its getting weaker. However they used belivers to do the modelling etc to ensure no controversies. The fact the shroud was dated 1000 A.D. was never brought up. A lot of bogus analysis on pigments and depth of paint layer and flash of light due to resurrection was line of thoguht. Kind of using the scientific process for faith.

[Guest]

[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='01 April 2010 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1270169190' post='105592']

The shroud was dated to 1000 AD

[/quote]

Some argue, the sample that was used in 1988 to carbon date look at a section of the shroud that was woven into the shroud after 1532 :-))))))

[G.Subramaniam]

[quote name='Swamy G' date='03 April 2010 - 03:26 AM' timestamp='1270244908' post='105605']

Some argue, the sample that was used in 1988 to carbon date look at a section of the shroud that was woven into the shroud after 1532 :-))))))

[/quote]





You are correct, the date is closer to 1500AD

[G.Subramaniam]

[quote name='ramana' date='03 April 2010 - 12:58 AM' timestamp='1270236024' post='105602']

its getting weaker. However they used belivers to do the modelling etc to ensure no controversies. The fact the shroud was dated 1000 A.D. was never brought up. A lot of bogus analysis on pigments and depth of paint layer and flash of light due to resurrection was line of thoguht. Kind of using the scientific process for faith.

[/quote]



I just saw a recent magazine of US news and world and they had the whole issue focused on jesus and they

used the Josephus forgery as proof of his existence



I also have discovery and nat-geo channels and they frequently have shows on jesus and these shows portray him as a real person

[acharya]

[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='03 April 2010 - 08:03 AM' timestamp='1270261520' post='105607']

I just saw a recent magazine of US news and world and they had the whole issue focused on jesus and they

used the Josephus forgery as proof of his existence



I also have discovery and nat-geo channels and they frequently have shows on jesus and these shows portray him as a real person

[/quote]

All these channels are in India now and Rupert Murdoch has bought Hinduism Today.

Unless we have Indian chennel for our own history we will get rubbish from western and other history.

[G.Subramaniam]

[quote name='acharya' date='03 April 2010 - 08:15 AM' timestamp='1270262241' post='105608']

All these channels are in India now and Rupert Murdoch has bought Hinduism Today.

Unless we have Indian chennel for our own history we will get rubbish from western and other history.

[/quote]



Hinduism Today is published by some white hindu monks out of hawaii

[Guest]

[quote name='acharya' date='02 April 2010 - 09:45 PM' timestamp='1270262241' post='105608']

All these channels are in India now and Rupert Murdoch has bought Hinduism Today.

Unless we have Indian chennel for our own history we will get rubbish from western and other history.

[/quote]

ha haa hha. No it is not true. On April 1st they had 5 articles - all of them were April Fool's Day Prank. The one I totally fell was for the Texas school board deciding the Pi value to be 3 instead of 3.14~. Then when I read that Rupert Murdoch bought Hinduism Today, then I smelled rat. When I googled, I saw the Pi prank was an older one.



HT has come out and admitted it the pranks. They have categorically denied they will ever be sold to Rupert Murdoch.



G.Sub: As for the White monks from Hawaii, unfortunately or fortunately they have the best multi-media presentation and information dissemination of Hinduism. I bought their book on Hinduism. It is top-notch. HAF uses their material. Motilal Publishers are talking to them, so are other book publishers in India. The current head of the monastery is touring India and meeting so many other swamijis. They have a good following in Mauritius, S.E.Asia, Srilanka.



The # of Hindus in America, which HAF came out with was sourced from the Himalayan Academy (the publication arm of the Kauai Monastery).



They have been always on the right side of the battle for the Hindus. If they are rats, then they are the greatest rats ever.

[Guest]

Acharya: Here is the link about their April Fool's day prank: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/xpress/2010/04/02/

[G.Subramaniam]

[quote name='Swamy G' date='05 April 2010 - 01:08 AM' timestamp='1270409414' post='105645']

ha haa hha. No it is not true. On April 1st they had 5 articles - all of them were April Fool's Day Prank. The one I totally fell was for the Texas school board deciding the Pi value to be 3 instead of 3.14~. Then when I read that Rupert Murdoch bought Hinduism Today, then I smelled rat. When I googled, I saw the Pi prank was an older one.



HT has come out and admitted it the pranks. They have categorically denied they will ever be sold to Rupert Murdoch.



G.Sub: As for the White monks from Hawaii, unfortunately or fortunately they have the best multi-media presentation and information dissemination of Hinduism. I bought their book on Hinduism. It is top-notch. HAF uses their material. Motilal Publishers are talking to them, so are other book publishers in India. The current head of the monastery is touring India and meeting so many other swamijis. They have a good following in Mauritius, S.E.Asia, Srilanka.



The # of Hindus in America, which HAF came out with was sourced from the Himalayan Academy (the publication arm of the Kauai Monastery).



They have been always on the right side of the battle for the Hindus. If they are rats, then they are the greatest rats ever.

[/quote]



IMHO, the white monks from Hawaii are legit, unlike ISKCON



They have never denied that they are Hindus, are always against xtian missionaries and had several good

articles on persecution of Hindus

[dhu]

likely origin of the minaret

Steeples generally serve as bell or clock towers. Towers were not a part of Christian churches until about AD 600, when they were adapted from military watchtowers. At first they were fairly modest and entirely separate structures from churches. Over time, they were incorporated into the church building and capped with ever-more elaborate roofs until the steeple resulted. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steeple_%28architecture%29"]link[/url]

[HareKrishna]

[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='05 April 2010 - 06:38 AM' timestamp='1270429248' post='105682']

IMHO, the white monks from Hawaii are legit, unlike ISKCON



They have never denied that they are Hindus, are always against xtian missionaries and had several good

articles on persecution of Hindus

[/quote]

Maybe Iskcon have a good impresion of Christ(this doesnt stop christians to curse harekrishnas when they see them).However i find some guys from Gaudya Math in western europe that are very against christianity especially against paulinism(Paul religion).

Iskcon teachings are for all not just for indians.Non-indians have souls too.Just like shivaism,vishnuism,buddhism,smartism,yoga have the goal to save the soul from suffering so does Iskcon.

In the spiritual world there is no material identities like im american,im jewish,im man ,im women.There you can have any form you want.

[HareKrishna]

[quote name='dhu' date='05 April 2010 - 07:09 AM' timestamp='1270431067' post='105684']

likely origin of the minaret

[/quote]

Maybe some articles about persian influence on christian architecture and art will be good.

[Guest]

[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='04 April 2010 - 08:08 PM' timestamp='1270429248' post='105682']

IMHO, the white monks from Hawaii are legit, unlike ISKCON



They have never denied that they are Hindus, are always against xtian missionaries and had several good

articles on persecution of Hindus

[/quote]

I agree. From your words 'white monks' in your earlier post, I inferred differently. I have been following Kauai Monastery online for a year or two now; and find them championing for all the 'right' causes. Though they have a strong Srilankan Shaivite tradition, their books, pamphlets, India's history (for 6th graders is par excellence) are sect-agnostic.



Sorry for going OT.

[rhytha]

whats a 'Srilankan Shaivite tradition' ???, there is only tamil shaivism. IS there differnce between them!

[ramana]

Clash of Titans is an epic titanic fail. An expensively made Godzilla type movie with huge distortions of Greek mythology. The Kraken has such a small mouth for the huge body!



Sorry re-make of the old classic which first introduced the distortions.



They make "Perseus", the hero figure, a man who fights the gods. He wont use the gifts of gods in the movie where as in original myth they are the key to his success. And the actor sports a Blackwater crew cut! They have token multicultrual figures: Touregs riding scorpions, a guy in a dhoti type attire predciting eternal doom and destruction. the only good thing was Medusa who SHQ said was a snake in a bikini!



Just like Jesus he is a fisherman and has a divine father. In fact Jesus rhymes with Persus. The only difference is the deceit vs assumed visit in case of the latter figure.

[Guest]

[quote name='rhytha' date='05 April 2010 - 10:05 AM' timestamp='1270479423' post='105696']

whats a 'Srilankan Shaivite tradition' ???, there is only tamil shaivism. IS there differnce between them!

[/quote]

You are correct. I used the word 'Srilankan' to imply Subramaniyaswamy (guru of the current aadhenam head) followed the Jaffna paramparai.