What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2

[HareKrishna]

[quote name='Krishna' date='20 January 2010 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1263978565' post='103623']





And it was also possible, that R1a once existed across vast expanses of Central Asia all the way reaching upto Western China, especially right after the last ice age ended ( Anyone familiar with the caucasian Mummies found in western China? ). But i guess, the later westward expansion of Altaic speaking Turkic/Mongol tribes ( no doubt aided by their new found tools and horses, and harsh climatic conditions ) wiped out all this r1a in that region. ( this may explain the shape of R1a distritbution in the map, there are two areas of high concentrations one in N India and another in Eastern Europe, the in between region is filled with Turkic groups.

[/quote]

Yep,between 4 and 10 century ,the guys whit vertical eyes(turks) wipe out the guys whit blue eyes(Scythians) from Central Asia.

[acharya]

an interesting scientific study of Indian ethnic and "caste" origins.Though there will be considerable controversy about northies being "higher" and southies being "lower",from the findings,the sheer diversity of India's population is what is truly exciting and what must be preserved in our nation's interests.

India’s caste system descended from two tribes ‘not colonialism’

Mark Henderson Science Editor



Genetic profiling shows that the structure of Indian society today reflects early social groupings, not just colonialism India’s caste system is not a relic of colonialism but has existed in some form for thousands of years, the most comprehensive study yet of the genetic diversity of the sub-continent has suggested.



The genetic profiles typical of modern castes are indistinguishable from those of much older tribal groups, Indian and American scientists have found. This suggests that they emerged from populations of shared ancestry who have married among themselves for many generations.



The researchers wrote in the journal Nature: “Some historians have argued that caste in modern India is an ‘invention’ of colonialism, in the sense that it became more rigid under colonial rule. However, our results indicate that many current distinctions among groups are ancient and that strong endogamy [marriage within a group] must have shaped marriage patterns in India for thousands of years.”



Kumarasamy Thangaraj, of the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB) in Hyderabad, and a leader of the study, said: “It is impossible to distinguish castes from tribes using the data. The genetics proves that they are not systematically different. This supports the view that castes grew directly out of tribal-like organisations during the formation of Indian society.”



Researchers analysed more than 500,000 genetic markers from 132 people from 25 different groups.



The research established that modern Indians of all castes are descended from two ancestral groups.



Indians can trace between 39 per cent and 71 per cent of their ancestry to a population known as the Ancestral Northern Indians (ANI), who are quite closely related to Europeans and Asians. Those with a higher ancestral contribution from the ANI group are more likely to belong to higher castes, and to speak Indo-European languages such as Hindi and Bengali.



The other ancient population are the Ancestral Southern Indians (ASI), who are not genetically close to any group outside the sub-continent. People with a higher ASI ancestry are more likely to belong to lower castes, and to speak non Indo-European languages such as Tamil.



The research, by scientists from CCMB in India and Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in the United States, has also established that Indians are much more genetically diverse than Europeans.



This result indicates that many modern Indian groups are descended from a small number of “founding individuals”, whose descendants interbred among themselves to create genetically isolated populations.



Lalji Singh, director of CCMB, said: “India is genetically not a single large population, but instead is best described as many smaller isolated populations.”



This insight has important medical implications for people of Indian origin, because groups that are descended from small founding populations often have a high incidence of inherited diseases. Ashkenazi Jews, for example, have a high risk of Tay-Sachs disease.



This may explain why several genetic conditions are more common in India than elsewhere: a mutation in a gene called MYBPC3, which raises the risk of heart failure sevenfold, is found in 4 per cent of Indians but is exceptionally rare elsewhere.



The only ethnic group who do not have this shared ancestry is the indigenous population of the Andaman Islands in the Indian Ocean, who appear to be of exclusively ASI descent.



Nick Patterson, of the Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT, said: “The Andamanese are unique. Understanding their origins provides a window on to the history of the Ancestral South Indians, and the period tens of thousands of years ago when they diverged from other Eurasians.”



Mr Singh added: “Our project to sample the disappearing tribes of the Andaman Islands has been more successful than we could have hoped, as the Andamanese are the only surviving remnant of the ancient colonisers of South Asia.”



Aravinda Chakravarti, of Johns Hopkins School of Medicine in Baltimore, Maryland, wrote in a commentary for Nature: “Greater ANI ancestry is significantly associated with Indo-European speakers and with traditionally ‘higher’ caste membership. This provides a model of how diversity within India came about. As such, its details are imperfect and will surely be contested, revised and improved.



“Caste and custom may be strong barriers between groups, perhaps even today. But the common shared ancestry and rampant ANI/ASI mixture may be the strong, invisible thread that binds all Indians.”

[dhu]

I can't understand some of these fellows. Even though they clearly see some of the pieces, their resistance to an Indian origin is epic and unforgiving. One fellow is trying to prove that Sarasvati Nadi has nonglacial origin which somehow validates AIT. Here is another fellow who clearly sees the genetic evidence as well as kentum transformation into satem in Greater India yet predictably relies on backmigration to usher in the Aryans. No distinction is drawn between the formative and the derivative and the formative never has cultural significance. Minor eddies are mistaken for a cyclone and a tea cup for an ocean. Pure Madness.

I had summarized a theory here http://[..] from Madhya-Asia ki Itihas, Vol 1, pgs57-73



1. The ancestors of indo-europeans (IE) and munda-dravids come out of south asia and/or south east asia in the paleolithic.



2. Both IE and munda-dravids are in central asia but the former under pressure from the latter, or of natural causes, leave central asia towards west eurasia in the neolithic. These IE are kentum. (between 12,000 to 10,000bc). You could call them IE or proto IE or preproto IE. [Edit: This is would be Anathony's forragers]



3. In Europe there is split around the Danube between the Shatam and Kentum branches. In the upper chalcolithic the Shatam branch separates and starts moving east. He says this separation is prior to agriculture since agricultural terms are not common, but animal husbandry, relationships, fauna, etc are. [Corded Ware, on the other hand, though mainly pastoral does show evidence of agriculture. They must have domesticated the horse sometime in this period in the eastern European steppe. ] [Edit: This split would be close to Anthony's Farmers meet Foragers period]



4. The Shatam branch he calls Shakaraya, who, by the late chalcolithic, divide into two - the nomadic Shak between the Danube & the Altai and the settled Arya, the line of division is the latitude near Syr-darya/aral. The Arya are in Bactria, Khorasan, etc and move over time to east iran and the indo-gangetic plains.

The Shak nomads that are spread from the Danube to the Altai he calls the ancestor of the Slavs.



5. The Shak, starting in the iron age, steadily move into south-asia under Hunnic pressure, and leave an cultural imprint over the Aryas. (900BC)



Most of the material has been drawn from primary Russian sources. In the introduction Rahul writes: "I undertook this arduous task as a challenge as no such history of Central Asia was available. Moreover, this history is intimately connected with the history of India. I collected major documentation for this work during my stay in Soviet Russia, from 1945 to 1947." Although he did not have any formal education, the University of Leningrad appointed him Professor of Indology in 1937-38 and again in 1947-48.



In Sankrtyayan's book on central asia - he does not say the languages - IE, Munda, Dravid, developed in the paleolithic, just theorizes that people speaking these languages in the neolithic are descended of paleolithic south-asians and/or southeast Asians. He mentions cave-shadow mummies that had been procured by the Russians for anthropological research. He relies on linguistics to develop separation nodes. Even today there are remnants of Kentum in the Himalayas, and the Kentum Tukhara existed as late as a 1000 years ago in the trans-Himalaya.

[Guest]

Playing the devil's advocate (I should not be really, because I know nothing about genetics), if we consider as per Oppenheimer that humans from S.Asia were the ones that populated Europe; how does one counter an argument that "Isn't it still possible that humans from Central Asia migrated down to South Asia?" That is after they acknowledge the first migration from India to Europe; on what basis can we refute any claim that there was not one more stream of migration from C.Asia to S.Asia - ie. Aryans coming into India?

[dhu]

Any assertion can be made. It is proof, or at least a plausability argument, which needs to be cited.

[Guest]

Since AIT existed before, and we are refuting it, wouldn't be nice if we can counter or have means to counter that too?

[dhu]

They can't handle the truth. We'll see a lot more of this happening. DNA forums are very low in activity of late. Pretty soon they will be arguing about who belongs in which block of their neighborhood. Such is the way of misguided reductionism (albeit a very juvenile variety).

I see the trend of trivializing the pursuit already taking place. Like you've noticed - first it was frequency and now diversity doesn't matter anymore to them. 'Who cares about that, we're more interested in our unique haplogroup clusters' - I hear this very often,and - 'we might as well accept that we all came from Africa, we're not interested in South Asia'. I wonder why they're interested in DNA at all now! They might as well check out Botany Bay and Ellis island records and be content with that I say. Oh, and of course, let's not forget the whole unprovable argument of IE language origin - that's keeping them very very busy nowadays.

[dhu]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lvVZ6C97yUo/S3...-+1024.jpg



Basal R* is delimited to India. Enjoy.

[dhu]

[url="http://www.archaeology.org/1001/abstracts/stone_age_india.html"] Stone Age India [/url]

Archaeology 63:1

..

University of Oxford archaeologist Mike Petraglia sees an injustice there, which he and a diverse team of researchers from three continents are working to rectify. Specifically, they believe that India deserves a central place in our understanding of the Paleolithic. Their evidence suggests that modern humans arrived there rather early and thrived under some unusually grim conditions.

..

[dhu]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_x6Y4ZgFsZdY/S3...ia+OoA.jpg



The above diagram was drawn by a Basque fellow. Given the [url="http://www.gyllencreutz.se/img/LGM_Palaeolithic.gif"]known differential settlement[/url] of Europe compared to interior and tropical Asia, it is quite clear that IJ must have weathered a few tens of millenia in Baluchistan or whereabouts. For each minor haplo which spread west (G and T), there is a corresponding haplo with local spread in India (H and L). And the main body of Euro haplos are descended from a much later development in tropical Asia, namely P/R in Bengal, with its immediate correspondences in SEA.

I used color codes for the main lineages (blue for DE, orange for C and red for F). The pink line represents the main route of the Eurasian migration, the red arrows represent the main flows of F and K derived lineages, which are the most complex ones. The light red dotted ellipse represents the most likely urheimat of F, IJK and K, as well as other derived lineages such as H and P. For simplicity reasons I have not depicted the expansions of C and D, nor of P and NO.

[HareKrishna]

[quote name='dhu' date='14 February 2010 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1266122552' post='104199']

[url="http://http://www.archaeology.org/1001/abstracts/stone_age_india.html"] Stone Age India [/url]

Archaeology 63:1

[/quote]

the link doesn't work

[dhu]

OK I have corrected it above.

[dhu]

[url="http://www.shikanda.net/ancient_models/witzel_oppenheimer_vanbinsbergen_pollock_hall_2007_.jpg"]Stephen Oppenheimer in the company of weasel.[/url] (image)

[Husky]

[quote name='dhu' date='21 February 2010 - 06:21 AM' timestamp='1266713029' post='104408']

[url="http://www.shikanda.net/ancient_models/witzel_oppenheimer_vanbinsbergen_pollock_hall_2007_.jpg"]Stephen Oppenheimer in the company of weasel.[/url] (image)

[/quote]And he is in the company of witSSel... why? So the hybrid gang of weasels and fosa-foils are wanting to infiltrate and subvert what remains of actual science?

Are we to expect Oppenheimer to 180 soon?

[dhu]

Absolutely. Weasel's smug wet look is definitely a result of his firm and unshakable, nay fixed, belief in Oppenheimer's imminent U-turn. According to my sources, Witzel offered Oppenheimer a few options:



1> Oppenheimer, yaar, let's get this straight. I understand you are unwilling to make a U-turn unlike the rest of your colleagues. But at least you can make a u-turn on paper, if not in real life. OK, look here.. [pulls out old pirate's map]. Here's a map of indo-eurasia. here is the fuhrer's germany and his birthplace austria, here is the hungarian plain, the holy danube bisecting the hungarian plain (hehe), and my good friend vlad's rumania. The ukraine is here and central asia here. I have sent an expedition into the Khanate to retreive the lost treasure of King Khan, which my subordinates date to the 4th century, an exquisite collection of KJo studded.. [clears voice and snaps heels].. but you do not need to know about that. Thank you for interrupting. Now... what i need for you to do is have M17 making a u-turn here and here. Just have the damn thing return to India. I'll get my stable boy Farmer to cook up another plausible scenario.. A horde of vile locusts swamped the expeditionary group forcing them to send a warning party to the homeland. This warning party then went rogue and killed off all their Austric ancestors and erased every trace of prior Austric existence in India. OK, I admit it's sorta unbelievable, but my stable boy is exceptionally good. His expertise has even been enlisted by the Divinity school. The Church..[clears phlegm].. I mean Divinity School.. calls our group "the scrubbers." Nifty title, ya? To be so designated by the Monotheists themselves, now that's an achievement.. OK. Now, all I need for you to do is sign alongside this u-turn [draws a u-turn on the map]. You can print a retraction in some obscure journal at a later time. My friends at Rediff will run with it in the meantime. Spencer gave a full interview to those rediff chums many years ago, but you don't need to go that far. You're happy, I'm happy. What do you say?



2> OK. Option two: I'll give you a post doc with one of my subordinates. Yes, I know it's a step down for you, but you'll enjoy the vodka bar in the teacher's lounge. [Oppenheimer interrupts and asks a polite question] Yes, yes.. We do need our alcohol when battling those evil hindoos from India. In fact, one of my students is doing his end-term research project on the increase in alcoholism among professional indologists over the past decade. He correlates the phenomenon to palatization trends in diaspora speech forms (a depressing topic for AIT'ers, in case you didn't know). Of course, he is ignorant of the real reason, but why should I tell him.



3> OK, yaar, I can see you're an upright one. This is my final offer.. I'll arrange a lecture tour of India if you go ahead with the U-turn. It's a very pleasurable experience, I can assure you.

[acharya]

[quote name='Husky' date='21 February 2010 - 08:47 AM' timestamp='1266721779' post='104417']

And he is in the company of witSSel... why? So the hybrid gang of weasels and fosa-foils are wanting to infiltrate and subvert what remains of actual science?

Are we to expect Oppenheimer to 180 soon?

[/quote]

Who is that Indian?

[dhu]

[quote name='acharya' date='23 February 2010 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1266868170' post='104472']

Who is that Indian?

[/quote]





He is a Madagascar African. The Conference is to discuss Oppenheimer's personal research on SEA - post-Sunda expansion. Weazel is there probably to ingratiate himself and weazel around.



http://www.shikanda.net/ancient_models/edinburgh.htm



H. Yamadah (Japan),

Michel Razafiarivony (Madagascar)

Stephen Oppenheimer (United Kingdom)

Wim van Binsbergen (Netherlands)

Michael Witzel (United States)

Shi Yang (People's Republic China)

[acharya]

[quote name='dhu' date='23 February 2010 - 03:29 AM' timestamp='1266875509' post='104474']

He is a Madagascar African. The Conference is to discuss Oppenheimer's personal research on SEA - post-Sunda expansion. Weazel is there probably to ingratiate himself and weazel around.



http://www.shikanda.net/ancient_models/edinburgh.htm



H. Yamadah (Japan),

Michel Razafiarivony (Madagascar)

Stephen Oppenheimer (United Kingdom)

Wim van Binsbergen (Netherlands)

Michael Witzel (United States)

Shi Yang (People's Republic China)

[/quote]



Interesting!

India with one of the largest population is missing from this research team.

[dhu]

Look at the body language: the three westerners in the middle, flanked by a group of token nonwhites; but atleast everyone is smiling, except for weasel.



The Conference Proceedings are hosted on 'Shikhanda' run by Wim van Binsbergen (Netherlands). Apparently, he is "critically" supportive of the Black Athena theis, but has managed to come up with an exact opposite variant:

Relying on the recently discovered ‘Back-into-Africa’ migration from Central and West Asia from the Upper Palaeolithic times onward, and on recent reconstructions of the Upper Palaeolithic *Borean parent language, the present argument offers a powerful alternative for the Black Athena thesis: The Aegean region looks similar to Ancient Egypt, not primarily because of diffusion from Egypt in the Late Bronze Age, but because both were the recipients of a demic, linguistic and cultural movement from West (ultimately Central) Asia; and this movement also extended to sub-Saharan Africa, producing...



....However, while thus the argument has rather devastating implications for Afrocentrism including the Bernallian variant, it could not have been made without Bernal's visionary and path-breaking contribution. [color="#008080"][[very condescending]][/color] http://www.shikanda.net/afrocentrism/index.htm

[/quote]



Now there is some reason to suspect a back-to-africa migration from interior Asia (and also C Asia, but he seems to have excluded interior asia with the usual motives). This fellow seems to be surfing upon this research or rather hijacking for his own career.



Now, both these guys Binsbergen and Oppenheimer are sporting theses which posit an extreme Asian dynamism in prehistory compared to the west. Binsbergen may be a case of denying Africans a case by setting up an Asian foil (instead of a European one which is just not possible given the evidence). Oppenheimer of course is a genuine.



This is exactly the last place you would expect weasel to be cavorting around. Probably, Binsbergen is a western plant; Witzel knows this; and Witzel has requested Binsbergen to interface with Oppenheimer on the Sunda thesis so as to limit the horizon to Sunda (not India). Thus, no Indian in the panel, otherwise people would have asked: what about India? All the Asiatic regions are dynamic except India?? It would have been easy enough to include a Dravidianist or another sepoy...



The other thing which strikes me is that Martin Bernal was apparently trained as a Sinologist. Elst is the same way and took up a similar position with regard to the natives.

[dhu]

The above 'Pelasgian hypothesis' seems to be Binsbergen's brainchild. Witzel is appreciative because it banishes so-called IE from India during the formative moments. Very convenient to have the darkies all subsumed under an inchoate 'pelasgian' category.