Khairlanji Massacre

utepian · 12-30-2006, 12:52 AM

QUOTEbut to interpret the pecking order as an issue of caste (in the scriptural sense of varna) doesn't make sense.

Do not interpret this in the scriputural sense. The perpetrators of the crime do not. They simply know, the family is Dalit and they are not. Therefore, higher than them in a very loose sense.

12-30-2006, 01:06 AM

QUOTEWhy is it difficult to think that some arrogant landlords were completely outraged by a lower caste family owning land, intimidating them at first and when that did not work hacking them in such a way that they and their cohorts will remember for generations!
Because everybody was living in peace and harmony in same village for many years and even that same so-called caste biased villager let these dalit kids attend school. Everything is fine till dispute. Had they were killed as soon as they were born or villagers kicked them out of village generations back? I would have called this caste atrocity. It happened after dispute.
So, when hate started or what cause this act?

Rural India is not as bad as projected; they are poor but still live in peace. Some exceptions, they have more respect for others and humanity.

12-30-2006, 01:08 AM

QUOTE(utepian @ Dec 30 2006, 12:49 AM)While you are precise on why the family was targetted, why are you ignoring the qualitative nature of the crime? The more important fact that the male of the family was left alone after witnessing the crime.
Because the qualitative nature of the crime is merely your interpretation of it. There are the reported facts, then there are the things that may be inferred by common sense, and then there is our broad-brush interpretation of these facts that must be carefully ignored to understand the true story.
Also, the male member of the family was not "left alone". He was present but invisible to the killers initially, but fled from the scene later. If they had found him, I suspect they would have killed him too.

QUOTE(utepian @ Dec 30 2006, 12:49 AM)I sense a great deal of intransigence from members on the board to call it a caste related crime. There is call for technical details, there is a sense that I somehow am proposing something preposterous by calling it a caste related crime. Why is it difficult to think that some arrogant landlords were completely outraged by a lower caste family owning land, intimidating them at first and when that did not work hacking them in such a way that they and their cohorts will remember for generations!
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These "arrogant landlords", do you have any evidence that they were anything more than small farmers?

utepian · 12-30-2006, 01:18 AM

Thank you Vishwas for pointing out the ignorance of my interpretation and inference.

utepian · 12-30-2006, 01:22 AM

QUOTEThese "arrogant landlords", do you have any evidence that they were anything more than small farmers?

My bad, I mistook their savagery for arrogance! I am sure they are lambs.

12-30-2006, 01:28 AM

QUOTEThank you Vishwas for pointing out the ignorance of my interpretation and inference. 
Why we can't see pictures of other crime? Are act on them are less brutal? or they are less human because they are from upper caste ?

Can we get picture of Singur girl's brutal murder? Or she is less human? or she is fighting against commies or she is a daughter of poor farmer? or her picture will not satisfy Lankaweb as she is Hindu ? or she will not make good propaganda?

utepian · 12-30-2006, 01:39 AM

Gee Mudy. Why are you so possessed with other crimes when addrssing me? Who in the world denies they are less or more? Certainly not me. I will voice the brutality of other crimes with the same vigor, why do you doubt that? So why do you keep harping the same over and over on me?

12-30-2006, 01:42 AM

utepian, please...
No one on this board is calling into question the facts of the case (though the CBI is), which is a case of premeditated, multiple murder. We are merely disputing the interpretation of the activists - that the caste angle (in the sense of superiority or pecking order) has much to do with this case.

Caste atrocities have occurred in other places in the past, and I am familiar with them. But, where they have occurred, they were perpetrated against the entire lower caste population of a village, not against a single family, and that too a very caste-specific provocation, like not showing "sufficient respect" to the land-owning caste. That is not the case here.

A long-standing (around 8-10 years old) land dispute is the primary cause. As well, in the very recent past, there were a series of escalations by both sides with the police-patil relative of the deceased entering into the picture.

12-30-2006, 01:55 AM

QUOTEGee Mudy. Why are you so possessed with other crimes when addrssing me?
because of blinkers. <!--emo& Big Grin

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utepian · 12-30-2006, 02:13 AM

Thank you Vishwas for taking it in the spirit. For a moment I thought you were defending the savages, when you asked in bold letters for "evidence" of arrogance of these inhuman barbarians.

Anyway....

QUOTENo one on this board is calling into question the facts of the case (though the CBI is), which is a case of premeditated, multiple murder. We are merely disputing the interpretation of the activists - that the caste angle (in the sense of superiority or pecking order) has much to do with this case.

Why such hard and fast requirement? Just why? I have been on these boards for several years. We have passed far worse judgement with way little evidence when it suited our collective apprehension about the perpetrators. Please dont ask me to point out evidence etc...but you know about who. So why this extraordinary burden this time? Is is because it is Hindus killing Hindus and the age-old caste system rears its ugly head. Are we afraid our commie adversaries might become more bolder?

QUOTECaste atrocities have occurred in other places in the past, and I am familiar with them. But, where they have occurred, they were perpetrated against the entire lower caste population of a village, not against a single family, and that too a very caste-specific provocation, like not showing "sufficient respect" to the land-owning caste. That is not the case here.


Thank you for corroborating. But does it mean that an isolated incident does not occur at all? Come on. I have known personal incidents (certainly none passes the nature of this one) where individuals or individual Dalit families have been mauled just because they tried to prosper.

To tell you the truth, my interest and why I speak passionately on this board about this case is for the following reasons.

1. If Hindu Unity is to be established, Dalits must become part and parcel as equals.

2. There are genuine Dalit grievances. Indignity is a reality.

3. If RSS/VHP/BJP have to prosper they must listen, act and have a true following of Dalits. Not a pseudo following like Kanshi Ram or Mayawati but true in nature but mayawati type in numbers. For that they must listen.

4. Incidents like this is when Parivar must step in with real vigor. Remember this happened in the Nagpur region, backyard of the RSS.

We should not be afraid or ashamed of caste practices in rural areas. Or even be weak considerig that by merely recognizing them the bubble is going to break. It is only by recognizing that we will be able to break it after all.

Apprently I am having a hard time even making people realize that we have a caste problem.

12-30-2006, 02:21 AM

QUOTEApprently I am having a hard time even making people realize that we have a caste problem.
We have crime problem and its a major problem. People are becoming more tolerant towards any crime. I stopped watching hindi movies because of raw violence.

This news is reality and its not a caste based, it is brutal, its is ruled by rich low caste politicians
QUOTEA rape every 16 minutes, a murder every 6 minutes
link?
Saturday December 30 2006 00:00 IST
UNI
PATNA: A woman is raped every 16 minutes and a murder takes place every 6 minutes, while a cognizable crime is recorded every 5 minutes in Bihar.

The figure was revealed in the crime records compiled by Bihar police for the first three quarters of 2006. In the previous year, a rape occurred every 22 minutes, a murder took place every 6.31 minutes while more than 12 cases of congnizable offences were recorded every hour.

Records further said on an average 9100 cognizable offences, 276 murders, 83 dacoities, 213 kidnappings and 87 rapes were reported per month till September last.

The monthly average of crime record shows that the number of total cognizable crimes were 8731.5, murder-285, dacoity-99, kidnapping-206 and rape-81, in 2005.

Against alarmingly high crime records, the police on an average arrested 12,084 criminals every month in 2006 while the figure was 10,628 last year.

The number of encounters between the police and criminals, however, declined from 12 in 2005 to 1.5 in the current year on an average in a month. More than three criminals died every month in 2005 in encounters with the police while the number of such deaths reduced to one each month if figures of first 10 months of 2006 are collated.

Monthly average seizure of illegal firearms (countrymade) was 246 in 2005, which increased to 251 in the current year. The number of bombs seized per month, however, came down from 170 in the previous year to 33. In 2005 six illegal gun making factories were busted every month on an average, which reduced to three in 2006.

The conviction rate during the current year was quite impressive.

Altogether 5604 criminals in connection with 2734 cases were convicted by different courts till November. During the year, till November, death sentence by hanging was awarded to 11 criminals, life imprisonment to 1141 and jail terms of more than 10 years to 300 convicts. Another 4152 criminals were slapped jail terms below 10 years.

utepian · 12-30-2006, 02:30 AM

Awright Mudyji. Everything is only crime. No more no less. There is no caste problem. Everything is hunky-dory, lot of goodwill, respect etc. As you said:

QUOTERural India is not as bad as projected; they are poor but still live in peace.

Happy New Year.

12-30-2006, 02:42 AM

utepian:

When we are collectively outraged at the similar crime in distant Pakistan against a Muslim lady (remember Mukhtaran Bi episode?), our heart certainly burns when we hear of such crimes against women in a land where we worship Laxmi, Saraswati etc. Could it be a reason we don't like to view crimes wearing caste or religious or nationalistic googles?

The next Supreme Court Cheif Justice will be Dalit. And for all we pray he dispenses speedy justice since we know for sure the unelectable Hindu Cabinet Home minister (from Maharashtra) is probabily brain dead, the Hindu Chief Minister (from Cong) and his Congress controlling the entire state machinery is gone on an extended vacation since we are expecting local RSS shakas to be the torch-bearers of justice.

utepian · 12-30-2006, 03:01 AM

No Viren. I think we are simply insecure in admitting that we have a caste problem. It almost seems that if we did (admit), our bubble will burst, the commies would be right and we would hand over the mantle to Islamofacists and rogue Xtian evangelists who have been saying "I told ya so" for centuries. It must be remembered that though real - Caste is a social malaise not specific to Hinduism.

There are noteworthy individuals in the parivar too who recognize the problem. But then again parivari influence on Dalits has not been very strong. In politics it has almost become that in order to be speak for a Dalit, you gotta be a Dalit and malign Brahmins/upper cates. So Parivar finds itself in a catch 22.

Some others just like to think everything is nice in the villages, no problem, its all a big conspiracy to malign Hindus and India.

PS: These are my views. Please dont ask me for documentary eviednce <!--emo& Smile

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12-30-2006, 03:15 AM

QUOTE(utepian @ Dec 30 2006, 02:13 AM)Thank you Vishwas for taking it in the spirit. For a moment I thought you were defending the savages, when you asked in bold letters for "evidence" of arrogance of these inhuman barbarians.

Can you point to my post where I asked for evidence of "arrogance"? I don't think I ever did.
QUOTEWhy such hard and fast requirement? Just why?
Fatigue. Fatigue with the argument that caste is the source of all of India's problems. Fatigue with the use of simple, standard models as a substitute for thinking.
QUOTE<div class='quotetop'>QUOTECaste atrocities have occurred in other places in the past, and I am familiar with them. But, where they have occurred, they were perpetrated against the entire lower caste population of a village, not against a single family, and that too a very caste-specific provocation, like not showing "sufficient respect" to the land-owning caste. That is not the case here.


Thank you for corroborating. But does it mean that an isolated incident does not occur at all? Come on. I have known personal incidents (certainly none passes the nature of this one) where individuals or individual Dalit families have been mauled just because they tried to prosper.
</div>
No, isolated incidents against single families can occur. However, those who use the caste argument in such cases, must shoulder a greater burden of proof. After all, a multiple-murder action against a single family by 11 individuals, when atleast one other Dalit family lives in the village unharmed, is susceptible to many explanations besides caste. Especially when we know that the history of the relationship between that family and those villagers included a long-standing and pretty bitter land dispute. Does caste wholly explain the murder? Have other explanations even been explored, by you or members of the media?

utepian · 12-30-2006, 03:28 AM

Vishwas, please dispense with the nuances. Here's what you said:

QUOTEThese "arrogant landlords", do you have any evidence that they were anything more than small farmers?

My bad, it was not in bold too. So there you go - double whammy. Enjoy.

QUOTEFatigue with the argument that caste is the source of all of India's problems.

Not all the problems. Just this murder.

QUOTEAfter all, a multiple-murder action against a single family by 11 individuals, when atleast one other Dalit family lives in the village unharmed, is susceptible to many explanations besides caste. Especially when we know that the history of the relationship between that family and those villagers included a long-standing and pretty bitter land dispute. Does caste wholly explain the murder? Have other explanations even been explored, by you or members of the media?



Again, again....if they had murdered them stealthily I would have never called it caste related. Family murdered, zammen apna hai or whatever. No problem.

It is only because they wanted to rub the dignity and teach a lesson. As for the other Dalit family, do you think they or anyone in the next fifteen pusht will even dare? That is the whole point, isn't it?

12-30-2006, 04:06 AM

QUOTE(utepian @ Dec 30 2006, 03:28 AM)Vishwas, please dispense with the nuances. Here's what you said:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEThese "arrogant landlords", do you have any evidence that they were anything more than small farmers?

My bad, it was not in bold too. So there you go - double whammy. Enjoy.
</div>
tsk, tsk... if only you had read my request for evidence and spent 2 seconds thinking about it... <!--emo& Tongue

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QUOTE<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEAfter all, a multiple-murder action against a single family by 11 individuals, when atleast one other Dalit family lives in the village unharmed, is susceptible to many explanations besides caste. Especially when we know that the history of the relationship between that family and those villagers included a long-standing and pretty bitter land dispute. Does caste wholly explain the murder? Have other explanations even been explored, by you or members of the media?



Again, again....if they had murdered them stealthily I would have never called it caste related. Family murdered, zammen apna hai or whatever. No problem.

It is only because they wanted to rub the dignity and teach a lesson.
</div>
I think your concept of stealth has an urban bias. In an urban setting, stealth would mean a night attack. In an isolated rural village, why is a silent, night attack required as long as the killers accounted for everyone in the family? The killers sought to kill everyone, including the husband who escaped only because he was very lucky. After the incident, the killers threw the body of at least one of the victims into a canal, and attempted to ensure that other villagers would not cooperate with the police. That would have been enough. In any case, if they had found the husband at his home and killed him as they tried to do, whose dignity would have been "rubbed" and who would have been taught the lesson?

QUOTEAs for the other Dalit family, do you think they or anyone in the next fifteen pusht will even dare? That is the whole point, isn't it?
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Again, this is your interpretation and nothing else. In fact, that also applies to everyone in the village, including those of the killers' communities who did not participate.

12-30-2006, 10:31 AM

utepian:
QUOTEThere are noteworthy individuals in the parivar too who recognize the problem. 
But why is the problem not recognized by anyone else in the nation? Why aren't people demanding head of the Hindu Cheif Minister or Hindu Home Minister but expecting more of the people who are (i) not a political party (ii) never been in power for 58+ years of our independence and (iii) barely have political clout over judiciary/police and (iv) are at best, good at tripping over their own shoe laces.

If it's a caste issue, let's get these Hindus first. Why are we knowingly absolving our elected officials and government servants of their duties and responsibilites and expecting more out of entities who aren't even related to the crime in this case? Because it's easy to search for a lost ring in street with light than the dark street where we actually might have lost it?

All the 4 points you list in post #70 is valid (and can be supported by evidence in other threads to show trends in right direction) but can anyone one of those points have prevented this crime or deliver justice to surviving victims?

Equity and fairness in all aspects for all citizens and the precedence it'll set for future is more important than what some political hack or a bottom-feeding-maggot might say.

01-03-2007, 09:07 PM

Khairlangi massacre: 13 more granted bailQUOTEIt was alleged that Khairlangi tragedy could have been averted had the administration and the police been sensitive and taken timely action. The incident sparked violent protests in various parts of the state and the state government finally handed over the probe to the CBI.

The district police and the state CID, the then investigation agencies, arrested 46 villagers including the sarpanch Upasrao Khandate and deputy sarpanch, Urkunda Khurpe of Khairlangi.

However, the CBI which filed the chargesheet before the court a few days ago framed only 11 villagers in the murder case while found several of them innocent.

Both, the sarpanch and his deputy were not figured in the CBI list of accused, and hence they also got the bail from the court on Tuesday, according to reports reaching Nagpur on Wednesday.
............

the state government provided a monetary compensation of Rs 12.5 lakh and a job to the victim, Bhaiyyalal, the lone surviour of the Bhotmanage family.

01-05-2007, 08:53 PM

Khairlanji witnesses fear for life, seek CISF protectionQUOTENGO Citizens for Justice and Peace and Khairlanji Action Committee had organised a press conference in Mumbai to highlight the threat perception to the Gajibiyes and also to lend a voice to their demands. While ordering for a re-trial in the Best Bakery carnage in Vadodara, Gujarat, the Supreme Court had stressed the need for witness protection which set a trailblazing precedent for other cases like Jessica Lall case and Priyadarshini Mattoo case.

QUOTE"The Supreme Court verdict in Best Bakery case states that the victims and witnesses must be given a say while appointing a special public prosecutor in sensitive cases," said Teesta Setalvad, secretary for Citizens for Justice and Peace.
Besides Setalvad also insisted that a report prepared by Inspector General of Police Pankaj Gupta regarding the Khairlanji killings should be made public since it would provide an accurate picture of the incident.
Now regulars are mixing this with Gujarat.

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