Even were the reason for the torture and murder to turn out to be caste-driven, it couldn't get me angrier than I already am. I would so like to smack the vermin around who did this. Since when did it become okay to prey on women or children (or the elderly). People who have no respect for the most vulnerable members of any society deserve no humanity, as they're nothing more than parasites. The villains who did this - what if it was their mum or sister or cousin who had these things inflicted on them. Did they even consider that? I'm not saying that had they tortured a man it would be acceptable. But it takes some kind of low-life to do this to the more vulnerable. That's the kind that would stoop to anything, makes my skin crawl just thinking about them.
I hate reading (and commenting on) these things. It's easy to think you're a peaceful, average, good person when you don't get to find out about this sort of thing. When I first read some disturbing stuff in the news or on this forum, I got to learn things about myself which I never knew before. Makes me understand exactly why I've been born in Kali Yuga and in this time in particular; my reactive state makes me fit right in.
As concerns motivation, human motivations are the most complex. I can't guess what drives friends at times or even why my sister or parents get upset with me on occasion.
So who's to say what drove or did not drive these jerks. And there need not be just one reason they had. Even were the primary motivation identified in newspapers or in a court or confessed by the criminals, we might never find out what the secondary and other motivations (if any) were. Sometimes they might not wholly be aware of it themselves.
And even if they did not target the victims for being Harijan, this might later have become a factor when they started upon the crime ('they're only so-and-so anyway, they deserve this' type of reasoning, that fueled their venom more and could have influenced the way they treated their victims). I say might, because I really know nothing about the case except what has been posted here.
That's not to say that regular, festering hatred does not result in the same extremism: similar things happen in non-Indian societies, so it need not in this instance have had to do with caste-discrimination. Revenge, gang-warfare, and the like have also resulted in similarly violent cases in the west - indeed, revenge sometimes suffices to provide all the fuel for despicable acts.
Forming any opinion is made more difficult by the motivated Indian media. It's so unreliable, you have to first think about why they printed this and yet ignored the countless other similar cases; you have to consider whether they would tell the truth if the motivations were not caste-related; you wonder about the timing, and their wording and what exactly they want to instill in their readership. What they conceal and what they are subtly twisting into untruths so that it fits with what they wish to feed to the readers.
So in the end you're left with nothing but suspicions and guesses about the actual case, and sometimes even the actual sequence of events is disputed by various papers.
Utepian,
I do agree that Hindu groups ought to do something drastic to change the way Harijan communities are still side-lined and become victims of terrifying crimes only because of how their community background is perceived. Having said that, most Hindu groups are powerless (politically) and get their manpower from volunteers. They can't be everywhere, all the time, in such a large country. And it takes time to change Indian society for the better, even were it not for the christoislamics or communists who don't want any change for the better unless they can claim their ideology did it. Anything Hindu groups might do gets branded as Hindutva, there's nothing the terrorists like better than to obstruct our progress and present us as a group of people who do not want to change the bad things. Look what they did to the noble Kanchi Shankaracharya who had been doing some serious good for the Tamil Harijan communities in his area.
It's not that Hindus don't want to improve things. We are slow, but not without a sense of realising what requires correction; in spite of the daunting nature of the task: even though we see that the problem is a huge one to tackle and the population-size it spans is even more huge. But it's hard to do anything on a large scale in complete secrecy, especially when there is another side that is not only wishing for failure but actively working for it.
But since it's a hobby for the christo journalists in the west and their stooges in India to portray Hindus and Hindu groups as fascists anyway (damned if we do, damned if we don't) it should not matter either way and so we ought to do what needs doing: keep trying to get Harijan communities the universal and willing social acceptance on equal footing they deserve among the rest of Hindu society. That just leaves me wondering what I'm doing living so far away and incapable of anything constructive but typing my cheerleading cheers for the home team.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The two women were stripped, paraded naked and then brutally massacred. Is it even important to know if forcible sexual intercourse took place after all that?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're right that it makes little difference to us reading about possible further events - we're past the point of being incensed further with anger. But the women involved had to suffer whatever was done to them. And that they died thereafter would not have lessened the trauma they experienced before they were murdered. So it would have made a world of difference to them had they been raped in addition to the rest of it.
Hope they were really spared that at least, and that the shock to their system (from the rest of the foul abuse inflicted on them) made them numb to the pain of the blows that finally extinguished them.
I hate reading (and commenting on) these things. It's easy to think you're a peaceful, average, good person when you don't get to find out about this sort of thing. When I first read some disturbing stuff in the news or on this forum, I got to learn things about myself which I never knew before. Makes me understand exactly why I've been born in Kali Yuga and in this time in particular; my reactive state makes me fit right in.
As concerns motivation, human motivations are the most complex. I can't guess what drives friends at times or even why my sister or parents get upset with me on occasion.
So who's to say what drove or did not drive these jerks. And there need not be just one reason they had. Even were the primary motivation identified in newspapers or in a court or confessed by the criminals, we might never find out what the secondary and other motivations (if any) were. Sometimes they might not wholly be aware of it themselves.
And even if they did not target the victims for being Harijan, this might later have become a factor when they started upon the crime ('they're only so-and-so anyway, they deserve this' type of reasoning, that fueled their venom more and could have influenced the way they treated their victims). I say might, because I really know nothing about the case except what has been posted here.
That's not to say that regular, festering hatred does not result in the same extremism: similar things happen in non-Indian societies, so it need not in this instance have had to do with caste-discrimination. Revenge, gang-warfare, and the like have also resulted in similarly violent cases in the west - indeed, revenge sometimes suffices to provide all the fuel for despicable acts.
Forming any opinion is made more difficult by the motivated Indian media. It's so unreliable, you have to first think about why they printed this and yet ignored the countless other similar cases; you have to consider whether they would tell the truth if the motivations were not caste-related; you wonder about the timing, and their wording and what exactly they want to instill in their readership. What they conceal and what they are subtly twisting into untruths so that it fits with what they wish to feed to the readers.
So in the end you're left with nothing but suspicions and guesses about the actual case, and sometimes even the actual sequence of events is disputed by various papers.
Utepian,
I do agree that Hindu groups ought to do something drastic to change the way Harijan communities are still side-lined and become victims of terrifying crimes only because of how their community background is perceived. Having said that, most Hindu groups are powerless (politically) and get their manpower from volunteers. They can't be everywhere, all the time, in such a large country. And it takes time to change Indian society for the better, even were it not for the christoislamics or communists who don't want any change for the better unless they can claim their ideology did it. Anything Hindu groups might do gets branded as Hindutva, there's nothing the terrorists like better than to obstruct our progress and present us as a group of people who do not want to change the bad things. Look what they did to the noble Kanchi Shankaracharya who had been doing some serious good for the Tamil Harijan communities in his area.
It's not that Hindus don't want to improve things. We are slow, but not without a sense of realising what requires correction; in spite of the daunting nature of the task: even though we see that the problem is a huge one to tackle and the population-size it spans is even more huge. But it's hard to do anything on a large scale in complete secrecy, especially when there is another side that is not only wishing for failure but actively working for it.
But since it's a hobby for the christo journalists in the west and their stooges in India to portray Hindus and Hindu groups as fascists anyway (damned if we do, damned if we don't) it should not matter either way and so we ought to do what needs doing: keep trying to get Harijan communities the universal and willing social acceptance on equal footing they deserve among the rest of Hindu society. That just leaves me wondering what I'm doing living so far away and incapable of anything constructive but typing my cheerleading cheers for the home team.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The two women were stripped, paraded naked and then brutally massacred. Is it even important to know if forcible sexual intercourse took place after all that?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're right that it makes little difference to us reading about possible further events - we're past the point of being incensed further with anger. But the women involved had to suffer whatever was done to them. And that they died thereafter would not have lessened the trauma they experienced before they were murdered. So it would have made a world of difference to them had they been raped in addition to the rest of it.
Hope they were really spared that at least, and that the shock to their system (from the rest of the foul abuse inflicted on them) made them numb to the pain of the blows that finally extinguished them.