Religion, Caste And Tribe Based Reservation - 3

06-28-2006, 03:01 AM

QUOTEPapa Ramadoss demands ordinance factory 
PIoneer.com
Yogesh Vajpeyi | New Delhi
After Arjun & Meira, new contender for quota crown ---- The scramble for the quota crown, which saw Congress leaders Arjun Singh, Meira Kumar and Veerappa Moily vying with each other to emerge as the messiah of the Mandal-II mantra, has taken a curious turn with Tamil Nadu OBC leader S Ramadoss pitching in.

The founder president of Founder-president of the Pattali Makkal Katchi (PMK) now insists that the UPA Government bring an ordinance to implement 27 per cent quota for OBCs in higher education without waiting for the next Session in Parliament.

And he is running around the country mobilising support for his demand-wooing not only sympathetic Congress leaders but also UPA partners like RJD chief Lalu Prasad's RJD, LJP leader Ram Vilas Paswan but also Congress-baiters like Samajwadi Party chief Mulayam Singh Yadav and Bihar's NDA Chief Minister Nitish Kumar.

To prove his earnestness for the cause, the father of Union Health Minister Ambumani Ramadoss on Tuesday called on former Prime Minister VP Singh and invited him to a national seminar on 'Social Justice for OBCs' that the PMK is organising in Delhi on July 2.

The move seems to have pressed the panic buttons in the Congress camp, forcing HRD Minister Arjun Singh to call on PM Manmohan Singh on Tuesday evening.

There was no official word on what transpired at their meeting. But sources indicated that Arjun Singh underlined the necessity of rushing through the legislation to enforce 27 percent OBC quota in higher education in Parliament without delay.

HRD Minister's meeting with the PM acquires significance in the backdrop of reports that Social Welfare Minister Meira Kumar had questioned the circulation of a draft cabinet note on the reservation policy without waiting for the report of the Oversight Committee headed by former Karnataka Chief Minister Veerappa Moily.

The Moily Committee, set up to prepare the roadmap for implementation of reservation in elite educational institutions in the midst of wide-spread protests, had announced that it would submit its interim report by July 15.

But it had also suggested that the Government keep the proposed legislation on the hold till its final report so that some "innovative suggestions" the committee was formulating could be incorporated.

The confusion and cacophony in the UPA camp, especially within the Congress is likely to put Congress President Sonia Gandhi and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in a dilemma.

The two have so far kept quiet on different aspects of the raging reservation controversy. While the Congress cannot oppose the OBC quotas, it would not like to be seen overzealous to rush through a legislation on the contentious issue in view of crucial state assembly elections due in Uttar Pradesh, Uttaranchal and Punjab due early next year.

"The Upper caste comprise a sizable sections of the electorate in these states and have been traditional supporters of the Congress and the party would not like to alienate them by giving an impression that it was unconcerned with some of their genuine concerns," a senior Congress leader said, on condition of anonymity.

07-02-2006, 10:40 PM

'Implement quota legislation in Monsoon Session'QUOTEThe parties, in a resolution adopted at a National Seminar on Social Justice for OBCs, asked the government to bring the legislation with 'greater alacrity and urgency'.

"The legislation for implementing this policy should be brought before the Parliament in the ensuing Monsoon session without any further discussion or debate and without subjecting to the influence of any vested interests," the resolution said.
...................
Enlarging the scope of their stand on quota, the parties also raised their voice for reservation in the private sector, judiciary and media and demanded immediate legislation in this regard.
.........
It said that quota in media was a constitutional "imperative" and that as majority of the media was in private sector, it viewed reservation as a "compulsory need" to implement in this sector.

In judiciary, the resolution argued that justice can be ensured only if judges belonging to different sections of the society were appropriately represented.

Emphasising that the OBCs who have entered the government services in the absence of reservation policy were at a disadvantage at the stage of promotion, the parties requested the government to pass necessary orders providing reservation in promotion to OBC employees.


Destroy India is in full swing. I am sure spineless and Queen will race to finish India.

07-03-2006, 03:31 PM

I was just wondering... when does this reservation become apartheid? Can someone appeal in International Courts and get a judgement that Indian constitution does not respect equality and supports apartheid? How did South african govt become known as apartheid? How is SA's constitution different from the amendments proposed by these pro-quota lobby?

Just a thought....

07-03-2006, 04:24 PM

QUOTE(LSrini @ Jul 3 2006, 03:31 PM)I was just wondering... when does this reservation become apartheid? Can someone appeal in International Courts and get a judgement that Indian constitution does not respect equality and supports apartheid? How did South african govt become known as apartheid? How is SA's constitution different from the amendments proposed by these pro-quota lobby?

Just a thought....
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IMHO, as long as others (anti-quota folks) are shown to have an opportunity to participate in the political realm. Until then anything goes under positive discrimination and social justice (oxygen for pinkos revolution dreams, of course) - truth and facts be damned. Yeah, this quota thingie will lead to apartheid in the long run - segregation, repression and all, supported by the state until folks wake up.

07-04-2006, 07:14 PM

QUOTEhttp://us.rediff.com/news/2006/jul/03franc.htm
We need an India based on merit, not on caste 
- Francois Gautier
You knew about OBCs, Other Backward Classes. Now you have to learn about OUC -- Other Upper Castes, a term coined by a bureaucrat from the Union home ministry.

The Congress has become adept at cornering the votes of Dalits and OBCs, that is enough to bring any government to power. But do they know that Brahmins and OUC, according to the National Sample Survey's 1999 report, constitute 36 per cent of India, a huge vote bank which ignores its own power?

And are the Brahmins and OUC aware that together they may constitute more than the OBCs vote bank, if one excludes Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Trtibes, which constitute 13 per cent of the 52 per cent Mandal OBC list?

There are further post-1931 caste census adjustments to be made, due to the merger of Rajput-Dominated Princely States with the rest of India, which took off 4 per cent; and another 4 per cent due to migration at the time of Partition in 1947.

Thus we come to an OBC actual population, All Religions Taken, excluding Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, of 22.5 per cent.

People think that Brahmins and OUC are rich, arrogant and cut off from society. We have already shown that today Brahmins and OUC work as toilet cleaners, coolies, rickshaw pullers, that temple priests sometimes earn less than Rs 350 a month. 

But what about the Thakurs, the farmers and landlords, who have such a bad reputation in Bihar and UP, as having huge lands and exploiting the lower castes?

A paper by D Narayana, Centre for Development Studies, Thiruvananthpuram ('Perception, Poverty and Health: A Contribution' CICRED Seminar on Poverty and Health, February 2005), shows that 69.8 per cent of Brahmins and OUC never went past the 12th standard, that 52.4 per cent of Brahmins and OUC farmers don't own land bigger than 100 cents, quite insufficient to nourish a family, and that that 53.9 per cent of the upper caste population is below poverty line.

So much for the clichÃ©s and prejudices in India about Brahmins and Thakurs. 

Narayana thus concludes: 'Just as the higher ritual status of Brahmins does not necessarily translate into economic or political supremacy, those lower in the ranks are able to move up in the local hierarchy through the capture of political power, the acquisition of land, and migration to other regions. A combination of these strategies and India's policy of quotas or reservations have particularly benefited the so-called backward castes, or Shudras. Referred to as 'other backward classes' (OBCs) in administrative parlance, backward castes are defined as those whose ritual rank and occupational status are above 'untouchables' but who themselves remain socially and economically depressed. Contrary to the general presumption that the OBCs belong to the deprived sections of Hindu society, few groups in independent India have made progress on a scale comparable to the OBCs.'

We are often shown Tamil Nadu as an example of successful reservation policies. But the Dravidian movement's success has its origins in the anti-Brahmin movement launched in the first part of the 20th century.

One century on, the DMK continues to stoke those feelings. Most of the Brahmins who once enlightened Tamil Nadu have now fled to other parts of India and abroad, probably one of the greatest migrations of intellectuals from any country in the world. 

It is true that thanks to reservation, social justice has returned to Tamil Nadu. But at what price?

The only Brahmins left there are priests and the DMK, back in power, is on the verge of also stripping them of this last privilege. But it takes decades to master the art of Sanskrit and puja and priesthood today is not a very lucrative career, as many Pandits are wallowing in poverty.

So how many takers will there be for their post? This is another empty vote bank posturing, which will split India more on caste lines.

This is the third part of the article on Brahmins. rediff has received a considerable amount of messages. We get huge amount of mails from Brahmins and OUC, grateful that someone has at last taken note of their plight, but also a few mails (3 per cent) from people saying that we are anti-Dalit.

First, I would like to say that after so many years in India, particularly in the cities, I am still not able to see the difference between a Dalit and a Brahmin, except if I see a Brahmin wearing a sacred thread and a Dalit in a loincloth, which is never the case in cities. 

Second, we live partly in the South near Pondicherry, where most of the local inhabitants are Vanniars, an OBC caste, just above the untouchables. I play basketball with them, our marriage witnesses were both Vanniars and our best friend there is a Tamil OBC.

Thirdly, as all Westerners (and French), I am revolted by social inequalities. When during the tsunami in Pondicherry, Vanniars stopped Dalits (whose access to their burial ground had been flooded), from crossing their village to bury their dead, I was appalled.

When in Banares during a recent survey, a few Brahmins tell us that they still will not let a Shudra enter their house, I am revolted and I think to myself that Brahmins deserve the treatment they are getting today.

Today the Hindus, the huge majority of this country, they whose culture is the backbone and the genius of India, with virtues of tolerance, spirituality, acceptance of all, are treated like a minority by the Congress and more and more ostracised.

It may be true that chunks of India are still ruled by some of the erstwhile upper classes; but the 36 per cent upper castes of India -- the Brahmins, Thakurs, Vaishiyas, Jains, Marwaris, Baniyas -- are more and more marginalised, their voices are not heard, and their children have to emigrate abroad, because merit is not any more sufficient to get admission in a university or a government job.

When will this great brain drain stop?

What a terrible loss for India. Not only Brahmins and OUC kept alive India's old age spirituality carried down throughout the ages, India's sacred texts, including the Bhgavad Gita, humanity's Future Bible, but they are also some of the top most scientists, engineers, software people, writers, artists of this country...

Will this 36 per cent so-called upper castes forever remain disunited, silent, and see its role more and more diminished, India more and more Christianised, Islamised, de-Hinduised, Marxist-ised? This may be the dream of the Sonia Gandhi-led Congress, but that will spell the doom of the India we all love.

Today, although outwardly many of the OUC still control parts of India there are many areas, such as the bureaucracy, schools, universities, hospitals, where the backward classes, often without merit, exercise huge control.

We need an India based on merit, not on caste. Indians should feel Indians first and then belonging to that caste or that religion after. But what is happening at the moment, under the Congress reign, is that Indians are made to believe that they are first OBC and then Indians, first Muslims and then Indians, first Christians and then Indians. This is very wrong and has got to be fought.

O Brahmins and OUC, awake, not against the lower castes, who are your brothers and sisters and whom you did sometimes mistreat for centuries, but against this cynical government that is trying to divide India more and more along caste and religion lines. 

Let go of your centuries' old disunity and selfishness, and unite. The power is still with you.

Francois Gautier

07-05-2006, 11:43 PM

QUOTESC turns down AP plea on Muslim quotaÂ <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' />
Agencies | New Delhi
The Supreme Court today turned down Andhra Pradesh Government's plea to allow it to admit Muslim candidates in various educational institutions for the current academic session under the controversial law providing five per cent reservations for Muslims in the state.

A Bench of Chief Justice YK Sabharwal and Justice CK Thakker said allowing the plea would amount to staying the Andhra Pradesh High Court order which had declared the impugned law as unconstitutional.

The court had earlier refused to stay the High Court order striking down the Andhra Pradesh Reservation of Seats in the Educational Institutions and of Appointments/Posts in the Public Services under the State to Muslim Community Act, 2005.

The Act provided five per cent reservation for Muslims in educational institutions and government jobs in the state

07-06-2006, 08:16 PM

Paswan demands 'dalit regiment' in ArmyQUOTENew Delhi, July 6: The Lok Janashakti Party, headed by Union Minister Ramvilas Paswan, demanded a separate âdalit regimentâ in the Army, constitution of a commission for most backward classes and earmarking of 25 per cent of the annual budget for the welfare of scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.

Paswan said on the sidelines of the national executive meet of the LJP's Dalit Sena that the formation of a dalit regiment will boost the self-esteem of deprived sections of society.

He, however, said the unit must not be reserved exclusively for dalits.

Paswan demanded the setting up of middle and high schools and residential colleges exclusively for dalits and free vocational training for them. He also demanded reservations for backward classes in the judiciary, armed forces and private sector.
Now Paswan is forcing state sponsored apartheid against rest of Indian citizen.
Where is equality? Now Dalit, next will be OBC, Muslim, Christian, and what not.

During war time, he will ask Dalit regiment should be sent last or they should stay behind. Enemy should kill Dalit based on reservation. Not sure how he will implement death based on reservation. He need to do lot of work to implement reservation. His first wife was Dalit , second wife is Brahmin, next should be OBC , then Muslim, then Christian ..............

07-08-2006, 07:47 PM

QUOTELAZY SHORTCUTS TO RIGHTING WRONGS

History shows that inequality is inherent to human society. The Indian
State should look for new ways to provide equal opportunities to the
disadvantaged

By Himanshu Bhagat

there was something about the protesting medical students â who took
to the streets in their white coats â that irritated me. My heart did
not go out to the young doctor-to-be when I saw her cinematically
captured in the morning papers, getting drenched by police water
cannons. Doubtless, some of the young medicos' asinine modes of
protest â polishing shoes and sweeping college corridors â had
something to do with my irritation. And the fact that they had stopped
work leaving many poor patients, who could only afford to go to
government hospitals, in the lurch.

At the same time, I also felt a sense of irritation when I saw the
benign, bespectacled face of the eighty-plus-year-old Human Resources
Development (HRD) Minister Arjun Singh. I suspect his heart is not
exactly bleeding for the OBCs of India â the caste bracket he seeks to
benefit by implementing quotas recommended for them in the Central
universities.

This simultaneous irritation at both â the anti-reservation medical
students and the pro-reservation honourable HRD minister who was the
butt of their protests â might say something about my indecisiveness.
But I would submit that it is also indicative of something larger.

The idea of reservations involves a conundrum. It seeks to right
historical and societal discrimination, which no one argues with â we
are happy to see students from depressed sections of society in
colleges and universities. But it does so, perforce, by employing
reverse discrimination, which makes us uneasy. Our sense of fairness,
which makes us happy to see dalits and OBCs in colleges also makes us
feel for those 'general category' candidates who could not get
admission because of reservation.

The case of the Brahmin candidate who scores higher in the iit
entrance exam but has to make way for a dalit or OBC candidate who
scored less, does not really make anyone happy. We have to remind
ourselves that Brahmins, a very small segment of the population, have
lorded it over the rest for countless centuries and that the dalits
who have always formed a huge chunk of Indian society have had to bear
the brunt of exploitation all this time (and still counting). How can
we call ourselves civilised if we do not give the latter a leg up?

Given a magic wand and asked to wish for the ideal solution, most
would wish that both the candidates get into iit and have a chance to
develop their potential to the fullest. They can then face the world
on an equal footing because they have been given equal opportunities.
We are of course speaking about an ideal world where there would be no
prejudice against the young dalit engineer.

In the real world, though, there is plenty of discrimination,
prejudice and even overt apartheid against dalits and the backward
classes â the failing of Indian society, cutting across region and
religion. Also, in the real world, there are not enough engineering
seats to go around â the failing of the Indian State.

That most do blame the State is evident from the general scepticism
that has greeted the government's ad hoc declaration that it will
increase the total number of seats in all Central government-funded
institutions of higher education so that the total number of seats in
the non-reserved quota remains the same. Where it will get the money
for this huge expansion in seats is anyone's guess.

The declaration got the striking students back in the hospital wards
and classrooms, and the government heaved a sigh of relief. It is now
focusing its energies on how to buy more time before it has to
implement anything.

Some editors-in-chief and senior mediapersons have been holding
anti-reservation protestors as examples of Shining India's
thoughtless, upwardly mobile middle-class, which does not spare any
thought for those not carried by the rising tide of economic
prosperity. But I suspect that part of the reason why the students
were protesting is that their India does not have quite the same shine
as that of some of our editorialising senior journalists.

Anyone who has attended high school in the past three decades will
tell you about the Herculean effort it takes to get admission into a
medical college for an mbbs degree. Those who made it to the iits were
kings, but greater admiration was reserved for those who possessed the
mental stamina to get into a medical college.

But as many an mbbs will tell you, life after the five and a half
years it takes to get the degree is no cakewalk, specially when
compared to the kind of opportunities and salaries available to their
counterparts in the software sector or those with a good mba. What an
mbbs graduate aspires to in the age of super-specialisation is an md.
And the number of md seats available in government colleges is
laughably minuscule. One can imagine then the plight of these students
when Arjun Singh tells them all of a sudden that half these seats will
not be available to those who belong to the upper castes. Unlike not a
few senior mediamen's wards I suspect, these students cannot ask daddy
to pay for a degree in the US or UK.

As Bibek Debroy and others have pointed out in this space, by not
giving up its stranglehold on higher education, the State perpetuates
the artificial scarcity of good institutions of higher learning. In
his piece, former Prime Minister VP Singh, the man who uncorked the
Mandal genie, says, "Increase the supply side," â as in, open more
schools and colleges. "Backward classes should be allowed and
encouraged to open their own institutions." I take this as tacit
acknowledgement that private funding of schools and colleges is
essential, for Singh does not mention where the government will get
funds for more schools and colleges.

Indeed, the problem facing our education system today is not
caste-based discrimination; it is the failure of the Indian State to
fulfill its obligation to provide its citizens with good education.
Most colleges and universities in India are a joke â hardly providing
any education to speak of. The less said about government-run schools,
the better. Even poor labourers, with barely enough to eat, are
desperate to get their children into private schools. Slums all across
India are full of tin-shack private schools, often of dubious quality,
because no one wants to have anything to do with government schools'
sham education.

What we need is an end to the License Raj in education. We should, in
the not too distant future, be able to look back at the current state
of our colleges and universities, with the same incredulity with which
we look upon the pre-liberalisation days when one bought Bajaj Chetak
scooters in the black market and waited for two years to get a new
Ambassador car.

Inequality is inherent to human societies â human history bears this
out. Even if everyone were made equal and given the same
opportunities, inequalities will creep in by the next generation. Some
are more able than others and they will pass on the socio-economic
advantages accrued to them to their progeny.

This is not to argue that the upper castes enjoyed centuries of
domination over others because of 'merit'. That was the result of
aggression, violence and sheer power exercised in myriad ways, aided
and abetted by self-serving religious beliefs. The point is that we
have to take an unequal society as a given and then look for ways to
provide equal opportunities to the disadvantaged.

Arjun Singh-style tokenism â pretending that reserving a thousand-odd
seats in a few colleges is going to make any difference to OBCs in
India, who number close to half a billion â is a shoddy substitute for
genuine affirmative action. It only plays with the careers of
deserving students who happen to belong to the 'wrong' caste.

The good sense that prevailed when we decided to throw off the
stranglehold of the State in many sectors should be carried to its
logical conclusion. Greater private initiative and enterprise is
crucial for education at all levels. The State should regulate and
step in where private initiatives do not work. After all, there can be
little argument about what fifty years of welfare statism has achieved
for dalits, OBCs, and the upper castes for that matter.

For all the backward-forward divide that reservations are said to
create, people can see through things. Noticeable this time around has
been the relatively muted support that protesting students got from
those who were very vocal in opposing Mandal i â there was more of
that irritation about closed hospital wards. Perhaps it has something
to do with the Shining India guilt trip. By the same token, I have yet
to see OBCs hailing Arjun Singh as Mandal Messiah ii. This has much to
do with the fact that reservations announced this time around are on a
limited scale. But still, it is heartening to hear that the Congress'
munificence is unlikely to transfer into more OBC votes.

People know that reservation has limited efficacy at best, it is time
to rethink education policy and act on it.

Readers are invited to respond to the ideas put forth by VP Singh,
Purushottam Agrawal, Amit Sen Gupta, Bibek Debroy, Jitendra Kumar,
Dhiraj Nayyar, Kanimozhi Karunanidhi, Lalit Kumar Das and Richa
Burman.

Send in your views and replies to peoplepower@tehelka.com.

07-08-2006, 08:54 PM

QUOTEBut do they know that Brahmins and OUC, according to the National Sample Survey's 1999 report, constitute 36 per cent of India, a huge vote bank which ignores its own power?


Where did he come up with this number?

Brahmanas and Kshatriyas(Rajputs) are only 7% of India's population.

How did he come up with 36% of India is Upper caste?

If that were true it would be very good. But unfortunately it is not.

07-08-2006, 09:53 PM

quote from Himanshu Bhagat:
We have to remind
ourselves that Brahmins, a very small segment of the population, have
lorded it over the rest for countless centuries .....

Did they really?

Just because our school history books say so?

It is always the so called BCs and other OBCs who were lording it over the dalits from time immemorial. They still do.

There have been practically no clashes with the dalits involving the Brahmins--now or ever.

07-08-2006, 11:02 PM

Bhagat is OBC, no wonder, but they were Jamidars in Pakistan Punjab, actually they were abusers <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />
Somebody teach him his own history.

07-10-2006, 08:21 PM

Arjun appoints PS Krishnan as adviserQUOTEWith the reservation issue entangled in controversies, HRD Minister Arjun Singh has appointed a retired bureaucrat and an expert on the subject to advise him on the 27 per cent reservation for OBCs in elite educational institutions.

PS Krishnan, a 1956 batch IAS officer who headed the Welfare Ministry at the time when Prime Minister VP Singh had announced in 1990 implementation of 27 per cent job reservation in government for OBCs, has been appointed as Honorary Adviser to the Minister to specifically advise on the reservation issue.

"My only condition to the government was take my advice and give a serious thought to it. Do not fix any price on it," said Krishnan, who had in 1979 signed the order appointing BP Mandal Commission, which had recommended 27 per cent job reservation for OBCs in government. That had formed the basis for VP Singh's government's decision.

Claiming that nobody knew the issue better than him, he said that some critics to the OBC reservation in educational institutions write without knowing the "a, b, c of the subject and without reading the Mandal Commission recommendations".

Here comes another idiot to promote casteism. Now VeePee is singing for Queen and going against Mullah yadav.
This is not Arjun agenda but Sonia's agenda. She is very cunning to take cover in 10 Janpath, power with no responsibility.

07-10-2006, 11:42 PM

Anti-quota protestors seek help of RTI
QUOTE"We want the government to tell us what is the total number of seats in all these institutions and how many of them are reserved," he said.

Claiming that they wanted to "expose" the central government's inability to uplift the backward classes since Independence, the members sought to know if students of reserved category were ever given any scholarships or financial help.

"The government should indicate the number of reserved category students whose family income was above Rs 2 lakhs per annum since 1992. Also how many of such students were given scholarships to pursue their studies?" another representative asked.

Transparency in govt dealings is key to successful democracy. Let's hope the government has the decency to provide this basic data that these youth seek.

07-13-2006, 06:19 PM

How is US dealing with the reservation issue? This is how. <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

QUOTEWASHINGTON, DC - Congress is considering sweeping legislation, which provides new benefits for many Americans. The Americans With No Abilities Act (AWNAA) is being hailed as a major legislation by advocates of the millions of Americans who lack any real skills or ambition.

"Roughly 50 percent of Americans do not possess the competence and drive necessary to carve out a meaningful role for themselves in society," said Barbara Boxer. "We can no longer stand by and allow People of Inability to be ridiculed and passed over. With this legislation, employers will no longer be able to grant special favors to a small group of workers, simply because they do a better job, or have some idea of what they are doing."

The President pointed to the success of the US Postal Service, which has a long-standing policy of providing opportunity without regard to performance. Approximately 74 percent of postal employees lack job skills, making this agency the single largest US employer of Persons of Inability.

Private sector industries with good records of nondiscrimination against the Inept include retail sales (72%), the airline industry (68%),and home improvement "warehouse" stores (65%) The DMV also has a great record of hiring Persons of Inability. (63%)

Under the Americans With No Abilities Act, more than 25 million "middle man" positions will be created, with important-sounding titles but little real responsibility, thus providing an illusory sense of purpose and performance.

Mandatory non-performance-based raises and promotions will be given, to guarantee upward mobility for even the most unremarkable employees. The legislation provides substantial tax breaks to corporations which maintain a significant level of Persons of Inability in middle positions, and gives a tax credit to small and medium businesses that agree to hire one clueless worker for every two talented hires.

Finally, the AWNA ACT contains tough new measures to make it more difficult to discriminate against the Non-abled, banning discriminatory interview questions such as "Do you have any goals for the future?" or "Do you have any skills or experience which relate to this job?"

"As a Non-abled person, I can't be expected to keep up with people who have something going for them," said Mary Lou Gertz, who lost her position as a lug-nut twister at the GM plant in Flint, MI due to her lack of notable job skills. "This new law should really help people like me." With the passage of this bill, Gertz and millions of other untalented citizens can finally see a light at the end of the tunnel.

Said Senator Ted Kennedy, "It is our duty as lawmakers to provide each and every American citizen, regardless of his or her adequacy or inadequacy, with some sort of space to take up in this great nation. As I firmly stated when I first entered the Senate too many years ago, "Let us never forget, everybody has got to be some place at some time or other.""

07-13-2006, 08:02 PM

Are they joking?

07-13-2006, 08:24 PM

QUOTE(Mudy @ Jul 13 2006, 08:02 PM)Are they joking?
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Of course.

07-14-2006, 01:29 AM

QUOTEKarunanidhi wants specific quotas for minorities 
Chennai
Welcoming the concept of reservation for minorities, Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi on Thursday said there should be specific reservation for Christians and Muslims. I kindly request you to pursue this matter further so that there is specific reservation for Christians and Muslims, as they have been demanding reservation for a very long time, he said in a letter to Human Resource Development Minister Arjun Singh, a copy of which was released to the press here.

**acharya** · 07-14-2006, 09:12 AM

The good things in Manu Smriti
By K.V. Paliwal

Manu himself believed that the Veda is the foundation of dharma (Vedo Akhilo Dharma Moolam; MS 2:6), and he had said about the dharma according to the Vedas.

Main cause of rejecting Manu Smriti by the VHP appears mainly due to the presence of large scale interpolations in it. Such a case is not only in Manu Smriti, but also in other smrities, Puranas and other ancient Hindu scriptures except the Vedas.

The Manu Smriti is the earliest Smriti, after the Vedas, as concluded by great Vedic scholars such as Pt Bhagwatdatt (Rajarshi Manu No.1) and Surendra Kumar (Manu Smriti 1986), and even earlier than that of Mahabharata as there are several shlokas of MS in the Mahabharata.

The basic principles of Manu Smriti are valid even today not only in Hinduism but also are quite applicable to the entire human race. The rational approach adopted by Manu has been widely appreciated by scholars of East and West.

Context: âThe Vishwa Hindu Parishad totally rejects the Manu Smriti as it has no place in a civilised society.â (Hindu Voice, May, 2006, p. 43).

The VHP appears to reject Manu Smriti (MS) on the plea that, âThere are more than 300 smrities. They have little to do with the eternal values of Dharmaâ. About the authenticity of smrities, Jaimini Rishi says, âThey are authentic to the extent that they are in tune with the Vedas.â (Mimansa, 2.3.3). According to Tandya Brahman (23.16.17) âA word by Manu is supreme, and is like medicine.â Acharya Brahaspati says, âWhen there is contradiction among the smrities, treat Manu Smriti as authentic. But it should be taken like this only, when Manu Smriti is in consonance with the Vedas, and NOT where it contradicts it.â Jabal Rishi says. âIn the event of contradiction between Vedas and smrities, primacy should be accorded to the Vedasâ (Jabal Smriti) In this context Mahabharata says, âPeople should adopt Dharma according to the Vedas. (Shanti Parv 270:1; 297:33).

Following the above criteria, the Hindus have accepted MS as their supreme scripture as being in tune with the Vedas and so it is authentic. The main theme of MS is eternal dharma and provides complete code of conduct for human beings and therefore it is Dharma Shastra (Smriti) based on the Vedas (MS 1.129).

Manu himself believed that Veda is the foundation of dharma (Vedo Akhilo Dharma Moolam MS 2:6), and he had said about the dharma according to the Vedas. Therefore people should adopt it as authentic dharma (MS 2:8,13).

The four founding pillars of Manuâs dharma are Vedas, Dharma Shastra (Smriti as per Veda), noble conduct, and truthful judgement and action based on self-consciousness (MS 1:132), and such a dharma should also prove true to any test of logic (MS 12:106). Manuâs dharma covers all aspects of life as dharma, Arth (Wealth), Kaam (Desires) and Moksha (Salvation), and so Manu deals with the eternal dharma, and not with Yama and Niyama as conceived by the VHP, which are components of Ashtang Yoga (Yoga Dharshan 2:1)

About the theme of Manu, Dr Motwani, a renowned Sri Lankan sociologist with Ph. D in 1958, from California University, USA, writes on Manu Smriti as follows:

âManu Smriti or Manu Dharma Shastra is a treatise that deals with the social life of man...fundamentally the Dharma Shastra contains a statement of principles of social life of man applicable at all times and in all climes, and therefore, has an universal significance; its teachings are aimed at the Homo sapiens, the human race, the manavas as a whole, and they emphasise the element of the permanent, the eternal in the life of man and societyâ (Manu Dharma Shastra, pref. XI. 1958). Thus even modern scholars considers MS of universal significance in the life of man.

Secondly the MS is the earliest Smriti, after the Vedas, as concluded by great Vedic scholars such as Pt Bhagwatdatt (Rajarshi Manu. No. 1) and Surendra Kumar (Manu Smriti 1986), and even earlier than that of Mahabharata as there are several shlokas of MS in the Mahabharata and not the vice versa, says Pt Ram Devâa great indologist (Rajarshi Manu No. 2, p.10). Because it is a fact that the 18 adhyayas of Gita are simply the 18 adhyayas (25th to 42th) of Bhishma Parva of Mahabharata (Mahabharata Vol. 3, pp 2597-2812, Gita Press, Gorakhpur) and thus Gita is a part of Mahabharata, and a later composition than that of MS and thus Gita is not Adi MS.

Third, the myth that MS is only 2,200 years old, written during Pushyamitraâs reign, is totally fictitious. This myth has been created by Max Muller and George Buhlerâthe editor and translater of MS, (The law of Manu, S.B.E. Vol .25, Motilal Banarasi Das, Delhi), which was further propagated by Dr B.R.Ambedkar who being ignorant of Sanskritâdepended on this English translation. On the contrary, not only Indian indologists but several unbiased western scholars acknowledge MS to be of earlier period than 200 BC. According to Eliphinton (History of India, pp 11-12) MS is of 900 BC while Sir John considers it to be of 600 BC (Institutes of law, introduction) and Hunter accepts it of 500 BC (The Indian Emperor Vol. 1, p 113) and according to Surender Kumar (Manu Smirit 1981) and Raghu Nandan Prasad Sharma (Smrition Men Bhartiya Jeevan Padhyati, 2001) MS is quite ancient as several shlokas of MS are quoted in the Brahman Granthas, Ramayan, Mahabharata, Dharma Sutras, Nirukt and Darshan Shatras, etc. So it is irrevalent to conclude MS to be of 200 BC only.

Fourth the main cause of rejecting MS by the VHP appears mainly due to the presence of large scale interpolations in it. Such a case is not only in MS, but also in other Smrities, Puranas and other ancient Hindus scriptures except the Vedas. These interpolations are unvedic, unhuman, illogical and irrevalent and are against the basic Vedic concepts and doctrines of Manu; and were noticed by the scholars since the 9th century, particularly after the theo-political impact of Muslims in India. According to Dr Rustagi and Dr Narang, different scholars have observed that out of total 2,684 shlokas of MS, 100 to 1,502 shlokas are interpolated, in the existing editions of MS, mostly in those chapters dealing with social, legal and political aspects of life(ManuâManu Smriti and Appraisal).

Dr B.R. Ambedkar used about 300 shlokas of MS in his works (BAW5 Vols. 1, 3.4, 5 &7, 1979-90), and about 235 shlokas were related to Brahmans, women and Shudras, 84 per cent of which were interpolated, and his criticism was mainly due to these interpolations (Paliwal, 1998, Manu Ambedkar and Caste System, p. 55). However Dr Ambedkar accepted no untouchability in MS, and full respect to the Sudras upto Mahabharata period, and Shudras are Aryas. He also acknowledged that Manu did not create the present day birth based caste system.

In view of this problem of interpolations in MS, Prof Surendra Kumar after critically examining and deleting the interpolated shlokas, published Vishuddha Manu Smriti in 1986, which is at par with the Vedic concepts of Manu. It is now fully authentic as per the basic doctrines of the Vedas and is free from all types of criticisms and has been well received by scholars and Hindu Dharamacharyas.

Due to the supremacy and authenticity of MS, Swami Dayanand Saraswati a revivalist of the Vedas incorporated about 250 shlokas of MS in his Satyarth Prakash. Regarding social justice, the uniqueness of MS lies in the fact that it not only provides equal opportunity to the people of every varna to rise upto Brahmanhood, but prescribes much more severe punishment, for the same crime, to the educated and responsible people, like King and Brahman than the illiterate and weaker sections of the society as the Shudras.

The basic principles of MS are valid even to day not only in Hinduism but also are quite applicable to the entire human race. The rational approach adopted by Manu has been widely appreciated by scholars of East and West such as philosopher Nietsche, H.P. Blatavasky, Maurice Materlink Dr Annie Besant, P.D. Oespensky, Swami, Vivekanand, Guru Dev Ravindra Nath Tagore, Dr S.Radhakrishnan etc. Nietsche even said, âClose the Bible and open the Manu Smriti.â (The Will to Power, Vol.1). Recently Raghunandan P.Sharma has summarised the impact of MS on the growth of world civilisations quoting examples of different countries. (Smrition Men Bhartiya Jeevan Paddhyati, 2001 and Vishwa Vyapi Bhartiya Sanskriti, 2001).

Dr Motwani while summarising the impact of MS on world civilisations writes: âManu as the maker of civilisations since the time of recorded history of man, as the patron saint of social thinkers, philosophers and planners is unknown to mankindâ (ibid Pref XII). âManuâs social thought is ahead of the contemporary social thought of the west.... There is no social thinker, in the East or the West, who has covered so thoroughly the field of the human social drama and destiny, and with such amazing insight and amplitude as Manuâ (ibid p.13). âManu does not belong to the dead past of some forgotten antiquity, but is a living force in the life of every civilised human being that breathes on the face of this earth today.â âManu belongs to no single nation or race; he belongs to the whole world. His teachings are not addressed to an isolated group, caste or sect, but to humanity. They transcend time and address themselves to the eternal in man. There is need for a fresh statement, in the light of modern knowledge and experience, of the fundamental teachings of Manu. India, which has been the custodian of his teachings as well as the radiating center from which they went to different parts of the world, is under special obligation to resuscitate the Manus spirit and visionâ (ibid P.15).

It is under pressure of criticism on the pretext of the status of Shudras in the polluted MS then it may be clarified that since today there is no varna system in vogue, in the Hindu society, so none is Shudra or Brahman in the strict term of the Veda. All are equal today. The present day SCs, STs and the OBCs are definitely not the Shudras. Moreover, there are innumberable, illogical and unscientific statements in the Bible and Quran. But their followers are not rejecting them due to the criticism, rather are improving them; and Bible had been regularly revised since the century.

Therefore it would be more appropriate to adopt, propagate and promote the Vishuddha MS which stands next to Vedas in its purport and authenticity, and also to critically examine the other smrities and revise them by rejecting the interpolations there in. Rejection of Vishuddha MS amounts to rejection of Vedas, the supreme scriptures of the Hindus.

**acharya** · 07-16-2006, 08:21 AM

Minorities cannot ask for caste quotas
By Sandhya Jain

Caste is the building block of Hindu society, the system by which the myriad groups of the Indian landmass were historically integrated into a cultural and social unity, which nevertheless respected the diversity of their beliefs and practices.

Congress supremo Sonia Gandhiâs determination to snatch caste-based quotas from Hindus and extend them to Muslims and Christians, using the Ranganath Mishra National Commission for Religious and Linguistic Minorities (NCRLM) and HRD Minister Arjun Singh, deserves a constitutional challenge.

Caste is the building block of Hindu society, the system by which the myriad groups of the Indian landmass were historically integrated into a cultural and social unity, which nevertheless respected the diversity of their beliefs and practices. Hindu unity, throughout Hindu civilization, has never degenerated into uniformity, precisely because of the elasticity and expansiveness of the caste system. Jatis climbed up and down the varna ladder with equanimity, and the system was never the watertight, divisive and exclusive monstrosity projected by the British colonial rulers.

It was the British who realised âIndiaâs Muslim rulers never figured it outâthat it was the strength of the caste system that prevented alien rulers with their massive armies and state power from converting the population wholesale to their faiths, as happened in other lands over-run by Christianity and Islam. Hence the concerted intellectual attacks upon caste, in both the colonial and post-colonial phases.

In the post-Independence period, however, the evangelical faiths have sought to increase their power by somehow gaining access to the caste-based reservation benefits extended to Hindu depressed classes from the colonial era onwards. Their attempts to procure religion-based reservations in the Constituent Assembly mercifully failed, but they tasted blood under the first Mandal Commission which listed some âMuslim castesâ among the OBCs. This has inspired Christians to press for SC/ST benefits for âDalit Christians.â

The issue has acquired a new urgency with HRD Minister Arjun Singh hinting at the possibility of giving Muslims OBCs an 8.5 per cent quota in elite educational institutions, by clever use (read misuse) of the constitutional norms of backwardness. In this way, the Ministry would not attract Supreme Court attention, since technically the reservations will not be given on religious basis. Shri Singh revealed this proposed ruse at the end of a two-day meeting of the national monitoring committee of minority education.

It is well known that Muslim leaders and academicians are demanding a caste quota for Muslims within the 27 per cent OBC quota in institutes of higher learning. An 8 or 8.5 per cent quota for Muslims would leave the Hindu OBCs with just 19 per cent seats. While there is currently a welcome review among the OBCs themselves about the desirability of reservations in academia, and Hindu society as a whole perceives the current move as a ruse to divide the society in conflicting caste camps, there can be no doubt that any attempt to extend quota benefits to evangelical communities will be viewed with suspicion, as these have a track record of seceding from the mother country, taking away precious land and other resources in the process, and inflicting a fatal blow upon the body politic.

Given the Ranganath Mishra Commissionâs desire to extend all constitutional benefits to Dalit Christians (which means political reservations by access to SC/ST Parliamentary and Assembly reserved seats), there is need to carefully scrutinize the proposed Bill for 27 per cent OBC quota in the institutes of higher learning, whenever it is introduced in Parliament.

Meanwhile, Hindu-minded parties like the BJP need to unequivocally state their views on the issue of caste within missionary religions. Since Christianity and Islam profess complete worldviews which seek to completely eradicate the previous religious and cultural beliefs and practices of converts and superimpose a new way of life upon them, they cannot be permitted to infiltrate and cannibalise Hindu society by walking through the caste door.

Caste does not exist in the theology of Christianity or Islam. Nor does it exist in practice in the lands where these faiths exist in their full power and glory. Nor do these religions permit ânationalâ variants which divert from the purity of the faith as preached in the Vatican, Protestant England, or Mecca and Medina. Hence in India, they cannot be allowed to make a political expedient of caste and use it to undermine Hindu society from within.

The bottom-line is simple. If either Christians or Muslims accept and practice caste discrimination amongst themselves, the conversion process among such groups or individuals should be legally declared to be inadequate and incomplete. In other words, they may be declared as non-Christians and non-Muslims and asked to either complete the process of their transformation to the new faith, or return to the Hindu fold. There can be no half-way house in this matter.

It is pertinent to note, meanwhile, that Shri Arjun Singh is also inaugurating certain dangerous trends in the educational sphere, with the proposal to reinforce Muslim separation by setting up elite Urdu-medium schools on the pattern of Navodaya and Central schools, in areas with a 10-12 per cent Muslim population. This would cover as many as 125 districts in the country. Its divisive implications should be obvious. Unless the UPA regime falls soon, the Eleventh Plan will see its implementation.

All that is left to complete the disempowerment of Indiaâs assertive and upwardly mobile educated middle class is for the Centre to extend caste reservations to the private sector. The four decades of stagnation wrought by Nehruvian Socialism will be surpassed by one term under an Italian Evangelical. The BJP would do well to revise its acceptance of private sector reservations and wake up to the grim threat from the religious misuse of caste.

agnivayu · (This post was last modified: 07-16-2006, 06:12 PM by agnivayu.)

That's what they teach in schools in India?, sounds like something that the imperialist British used to say. It's an attempt to make Brahmins like Jews, a minority that's living well at the expense of others. This is Propaganda perpertuated no doubt by the racist and intolerant Xtian and Muslim extremists. What do you do when two mad dogs are biting you ?, Make them bite each other instead, and kick them both when they are tired and weak.

QUOTE(chandramoulee @ Jul 8 2006, 09:53 PM)quote from Himanshu Bhagat:
We have to remind
ourselves that Brahmins, a very small segment of the population, have
lorded it over the rest for countless centuries .....

Did they really?

Just because our school history books say so?

It is always the so called BCs and other OBCs whoÂ were lording it over the dalits from time immemorial. They still do.

There have been practically no clashes with the dalits involving the Brahmins--now or ever.
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