Miscellaneous Topics discussion

[Guest]

Swamy,

1. In an earlier post on Indian Dress thread, I had quoted from sri bramha vaivartta purANa:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->vishwakarma cha Sudrayaam veeryaadhaanam chakAr Ha
tato vabhoovuh putraaste navaite shipakarinah
mAlAkArah karmakArah shankhakArah kuvindakah
kumbhakArah kansakArah Sadete shilpinAm varah
sutradhAr chitrakArah swarnakarastathaiva cha
patitaste bramha shApad ajatyA varna sankarAh
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

In brief, above means:

Vishwakarma conceived, through a sUdrANI, 9 sons. These, he then trained in 9 different silpakalA-s (crafts), namely:
gardening,
ironsmithy,
shankhakar (shell-making),
kuvinda (weaving),
clay pot making,
brass moulding,
carpenting,
sculpture/painting, and
goldsmithy.
(Interestingly, it says the last 3 of the above 9 jAti-s, will eventually be fallen due to certain curse of bramha, and become ajatiya varna-sankara.)

Above reference at least tells us that weaving as profession was well established by the time this purANa was written down.

2. Acharya Hazari Prasad Dwivedi has done a lot of research in the history of weavers - particularly how Indian weaving jAti got islamized as a chunk, and so quicky. Please read his classic 'Kabir' (Hindi).

3. Dr. Kalyanaraman is doing some maulik research about cotton in the Saraswati civilization. He writes:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Cotton in Sarasvati civilization

What was found in Mohenjodaro was gossypium arboreum. Fibres of cotton , Gossypium arboreum, were found adhering to a silver vase at Mohenjo-Daro (Turner and Gulati, 1928), and several faiences and vessels from Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa had impressions of woven textile (Marshall, 1931). http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/Agriculture1.doc

Of course, the acharya (so-called priest-king) wore a uttareeyam leaving his right-shoulder bare; the uttareeyam was embroidered with trefoil designs. 

The Mesopotamian imports from Meluhha were: woods, copper (ayas), gold, silver, carnelina, cotton. Gudea sent expeditions in 2200 B.C. to Makkan and Meluhha in search of hard wood. Seal impression with the cotton cloth from Umma (Scheil, V., 1925, Un Nouvea Sceau Hindou Pseudo-Sumerian, RA, 22/3, pp. 55-56) and cotton cloth piece stuck to the base of a silver vase from Mohenjodaro (Wheeler, R.E.M., 1965, Indus Civilization) are indicative evidence. Babylonian and Greek names for cotton were: sind, sindon. This is an apparent reference to the cotton produced in the black cotton soils of Sind and Gujarat .

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/html/vedictech.htm

See the Elamite spinner at http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/spindle.htm

For hieroglyph interpretations see at: http://www.hindu-tva.com-a.googlepages.com/
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Now, cotton and weaving are fairly ancient and arguably indegenous. Spinning Wheel?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, cotton and weaving are fairly ancient and arguably indegenous. Spinning Wheel?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was curious to know the origins of spinning wheel. It was not clear from your question about your opinion or conclusion.

Yes, cotton and weaving are ancient. Even Al Beruni talks about weaving, and Al Beruni was in India before 1350.

Here is a quote from "Alberuni's India" (Dr.Edward C. Sachau) Page 85
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->After the Sudra follow the people called <i>Antyaja</i>, who render various kinds of services, who are not reckoned amongst any caste, but only as members of a certain craft or profession. There are eight classes of them, who freely intermarry with each other, except the fuller, shoemaker, and weaver, for no others would condescend to have anything to do with them. These eight guilds are the <b>fuller, shoemaker, juggler, the basket and shield maker, the sailor, fisherman, the hunter of wild animals and of birds, and the weaver.</b> The four castes do not live together with them in one and the same place. These guilds live near the villages and towns of the four castes, but outside them.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, cotton and weaving are ancient. Even Al Beruni talks about weaving, and Al Beruni was in India before 1350. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Around 3500 BC, Mahabharat days, they were using Chariot, remind you; these chariots with wheels didn't come directly from Witzel’s Aryan land and started fighting and ploughing fields and weaving dresses for people of Vedic Civilization.
Even during Ramyana period, people were wearing clothes, of course weaved.

So you have to think or read or research period before that.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+Jul 4 2007, 08:20 AM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ Jul 4 2007, 08:20 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, cotton and weaving are fairly ancient and arguably indegenous. Spinning Wheel?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was curious to know the origins of spinning wheel. It was not clear from your question about your opinion or conclusion.

Yes, cotton and weaving are ancient. Even Al Beruni talks about weaving, and Al Beruni was in India before 1350.

[right][snapback]70787[/snapback][/right]
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Acording to wikipedia
"The first improvement in spinning technology was the spinning wheel, which was invented in India between 500 and 1000 A.D.[1][2][3] It reached Europe via the Middle East in the European Middle Ages. It replaced the earlier method of hand spinning with a spindle."

Arheologicaly,weaving can be found in Catal Huyuk(Turkey)dating from 6500BC.Small pieces of clothes was found.Surprisingly advance,the density of texture was very hight.

[Guest]

Honsol:
I had looked into that source too earlier, before it was assumed that I did not research, think et al. If you trace the source of the article from the external links provided, one of the sites you land up is Encyclopedia Brittanica - in which it points out that it was "probably" invented in India and its origins are obscure.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Jul 4 2007, 10:14 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Jul 4 2007, 10:14 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, cotton and weaving are ancient. Even Al Beruni talks about weaving, and Al Beruni was in India before 1350. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Around 3500 BC, Mahabharat days, they were using Chariot, remind you; these chariots with wheels didn't come directly from Witzel’s Aryan land and started fighting and ploughing fields and weaving dresses for people of Vedic Civilization.
Even during Ramyana period, people were wearing clothes, of course weaved.

So you have to think or read or research period before that.
[right][snapback]70789[/snapback][/right]
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It is not hard to come to conclusion that since people wore clothes they must have a way of manufacturing them. Similarly, since they had chariots with wheels and made pots (and other more materials), people knew about "wheels". But these in no way show that the instrument we commonly call as "charkha" as it existed during the Independence times, has its origins solely from India. Obviously to weave you need yarn, and certainly there must have been a process to convert the cotton. It is possible that Indians had more than one technology or equipment to do this.

Okay, let me rephrase my question: Can any one point me to the earliest reference to spinning wheel in our ancient literature or other archaeological finds?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-rhytha+Jun 16 2007, 12:41 PM-->QUOTE(rhytha @ Jun 16 2007, 12:41 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Husky, can you plz upload all the songs you have in page.6 of this thread again, "Ananda Natanaprakasam" by Bombay Jaishree was damn good, if you have the full albumn of "Panchabhutams" plz upload it to them again.
[right][snapback]70172[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Rhytha sorry it took so long. It slipped my mind the last couple of days.
Updated posts 194, 201 and 204 with new links to nearly all the files (exceptions are two Panchabhutams).

<b>There's also a new Samskritam shlokam added in #201: one on Subramaniam (Muraga, Skanda).</b>

[Bharatvarsh]

A friend of mine visited Elst recently, says he is stable now but still waiting for his transplant, they have to find a donor within 9 months or it could get serious, also said that he lost a lot of weight and doesn't have his characteristic beard anymore.

[Guest]

two questions.

1. "An ass laden with gold..." what is the source of this proverb?

2. sAvitrI-satyavAna : this story appears in mahAbhArata. Which other sAstra-s?

[Shambhu]

<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think it would be worthwhile to answer some of the 'Questions on Dharma/Comments of snug superiority of Islam' that you see on various message boards.

This is just a practical effort to compile thoughts instead of having to scratch your head for the exact words when you are asked the question..

For example, this one I saw somewhere:
Hinduism has strayed from its original One God and has made multiple Gods, and Islam is still faithful to the One God.
(This was written by a Muslim)

My response:

If Islam has one God, why are Shia and Sunni killing each other? Even if you say it has nothing to do with Allah, only to do with Muhammad's lineage, I still say, killing is killing, right? There are fights among Muslims over the exact way to pray to this "One God". Fights over hundreds of other tiny things.

In Sanatana Dharma (what people call Hinduism) we do not strait-jacket God. Different views on God are allowed, different ways of worship are allowed, and the focus is kept on spirituality rather than rules. So people think Hindus have "Gods" and are "polythesitic" when it is anything but. Islam (and Chistianity) has today become just a bunch of rules. Do this, don't do that. And chasing after rewards. Sex in jannat. Where is the God they keep talking about?

<b>***</b>This is a Level II answer, for people who are genuinely confused/indoctrinated.

The Level I answer is that Islam is a club where you can satisfy your lust at the expense of non-members, nothing more. That is why people are attracted to Islam. There is no relation at all between Islam and God. Islam is not even a "political philosophy" as some people are fond of calling it. It is just a way to get rich without working and to rape *and* be called pious on top of it. Actually, the more you destroy, kill and rape, the more pious you are. Just make sure you do it to non-Muslims. Or, if you really want to rape a Muslim man (or even woman), make up an excuse and say you need to do it for the glory of Allah.. <i>Sone pe suhagaa</i>!

But not all people deserve Level I answers. It can often be counterproductive and make you enemies. One step at a time.

[Guest]

Click to to start watching Brahma Kumaris’s cremation ceremony on VOD

[Guest]

Talking about 7 wonder of the world
But which are the 7 wonders of India?Kajuraho,Menakshi,Ellora....you name it

[Guest]

<b>Jagannath Ratha-yatra in Baghdad</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
By Dvarakarani Devi Dasi
These are U.S. troops. The soldier facing the camera, weapon in hand, is Partha-sarathi dasa. Besides engaging the enemy his mission is to hold a Ratha-yatra festival in Baghdad.

His dilemma—what to do for prasadam? His solution—Ratnabhusana dasa and the New Dwaraka cookie baking crew. So far Ratna has sent three batches of 1,800 cookies each to Partha to distribute to the troops. Along with the cookies Partha has received deities of their Lordships Jagannath, Baladeva and Subhadra, and other devotional items. Jai Srila Prabhupada!

The response from the troops has been so uplifting. The Mercy of the devotees is far reaching. Here are some excerpts from some letters that Ratna received from these troops in Iraq:

“Thank you so much for all this…. that is so far out that you all took the time out to help me. Things have been very intense here, almost took a round the other day but Narasimha is here next to me, everywhere I go.”

“Our center is growing at the moment, 10 devotees have been made. They are chanting rounds and following the 4 regs all by Krishna’s and your mercy.”

“I lost a soldier recently and the amazing thing was that he did so much service for Krishna without knowing. He bought dry fruit, incense etc. And the amazing thing was that he ate like 50 of the last batch of cookies. When we packed his stuff up I found a card I have given him in his helmet… it said Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare / Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare… and I was told before he died he yelled Krishna.”

If you would like to join the troops—the Cookie Prasadam Troops that is—please write to Ratnabhusana dasa. All donations no matter how small are welcome.

<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Odissi-lovers rally behind ailing Asako </b>


BHUBANESWAR: The Odissi dancers’ community across the globe has come together in aid of the US-based veteran Odissi dancer Ms. Asako Takami who is suffering from cancer.

The community has further appealed to the practitioners, patrons and admirers of the Indian classical dances to rise to the occasion.

Founder of the Pallavi Dance Group in San Francisco Bay Area, Asako has been staying in the US for the past 15 years performing, teaching and promoting Odissi.

Although she learnt Kathakali, Manipuri and Bharatnatyam, she remained hooked to Odissi after watching the performance of the legendary Sanjukta Panigrahi in Tokyo.

A disciple of New Delhi-based versatile Odissi dancer Ms. Kumkum Lal and Lal’s legendary guru, Kelucharan Mohapatra, she used to visit Bhubaneswar every year for training, but for the past four year as she was diagnosed for cancer.

“Both as a dancer and a human being, she is simply beautiful,” narrated US-based Odissi dancer Niharika Mohanty of Orissa who is instrumental in mobilising the support of the Odissi dancers’ community through odissiyahoogroup being hosted by another US-based dancer.

“Asako, who dedicated her life to Odissi is battling with cancer. She has not been able to dance or teach for almost a year and a half now as the radiation treatments destroyed her right pelvic bone and her right leg has been complete affected. She is extremely debilitated at the point and is mostly bedridden.

Because she has not been able to work, she is in financial crisis. We, her friends and students, are trying to raise money and want to send her back to her parents in Japan,” an appeal from her student Sangumay Ordona revealed.

As soon as the appeal was spread, Muscat-based banker and Odissi dance promoter from Orissa Mr.A.K.Parija has offered a support of 1000 US dollars while Mumbai-based eminent dancer Ms. Jhelum Panajpe has arranged to send her monetary support through her disciples in US.

<b>Concert to raise funds </b>

Meanwhile, New York-based Kathak dancer Prachi Dalal in association with Washington-based Odissi dancer Sonali Mishra of Orissa and Niharika Mohanty has mooted an Indian classical dance concert to raise funds for the ailing danseuse.

The most heart-touching response has, however, come from Mumbai-based budding Odissi dancer and journalist Ranjana Dave whose posting says, “let us, who can not do anything for the devoted dancer, pray for her”.

For further inquiry, friends of Asako can be contacted on dancing_odissi@yahoogroups.com and nmohanty@hotmail.com.

http://www.hindu.com/2007/09/30/stories/...310200.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


More on the dancer Asako Takami, her life and accomplishments as a dancer may be found at: http://odissi.blogspot.com/

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Aug 4 2007, 10:58 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Aug 4 2007, 10:58 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->two questions.

1. "An ass laden with gold..." what is the source of this proverb?

2. sAvitrI-satyavAna : this story appears in mahAbhArata.  Which other sAstra-s?
[right][snapback]71872[/snapback][/right]
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Again posting. still have these questions.

[Guest]

1) How to trace a charity organisation to Communist or Evangelism groups?
2) In what way can awareness be increased among the normal Hindus, who are not very aware or do not care about such groups; they just care that their dollar or rupee goes to some needy person?

[Guest]

Parents, check out Karadi tales
Indian mythology in our one and only Indian English :twisted: I have one CD. Believe me it is cool and hip.

Talking about Western influences, I am always amazed at the successful adaptation of Violin in Carnatic music.

[Guest]

the best childrens magzine in the indian context is chandamama and its various indian language magzine.

[acharya]

Hindus missing the wood for the trees
By Dr Gautam Sen

An ideologically intransigent and demographically expansionist Islam may terrorise Hindus into complete submission at an opportune moment. Women of the defeated fancied by the conquerors will be consigned to their notorious harems and a surge in religious conversion will occur in the name of the religion of peace and tolerance.

Hindus are apparently failing to grasp that these persistent attacks constitute a prelude to the kill of a grievously injured prey. Disputing the veracity of the unremitting libel and abuse against them, as if it was all an unfortunate misunderstanding that could be dispelled by reason and logic, merely confirms that Hindus, like the doomed Bourbons of France, have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.

The other wood Hindus cannot seem to fathom amid the trees is the diabolical role the British played in their history. After inflicting on them famines and mass death in the 1760s, resulting in seven million dead (quarter of Bengal’s population) because of rapacious looting immediately after Plassey, they caused the deaths of untold millions in the same Bengal on the eve of their departure almost exactly 180 years later.

Hindu understanding of the world they inhabit and their associated political activity sadly give the impression of missing the wood for the trees. Running around like headless chickens disconsolate Hindus protest a myriad of slights, insults and assaults. But they are failing to grasp the alarming interconnectedness of outwardly disparate events and how profoundly consequential they are for the destiny of Hindus.

For more than a thousand years luck (being relatively numerous at a time when the physical reach of predators was limited) and fierce intermittent resistance combined to prolong fragile Hindu survival. In the contemporary world, there is an intensification of the on going war against Hindus whether by the jehadi pornographer Husain trashing the most sacred Hindu objects of veneration, abetted by their own obscene elites, or the brazen denunciation of their ancient epic, the Ramayana by some ASI low-life.

Hindus are apparently failing to grasp that these persistent attacks constitute a prelude to the kill of a grievously injured prey. Disputing the veracity of the unremitting libel and abuse against them, as if it was all an unfortunate misunderstanding that could be dispelled by reason and logic, merely confirms that Hindus, like the doomed Bourbons of France, have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing. The Mahatma has indeed reached out from his samadhi to ensure that an instinct of ‘collective suicide’, as he constantly enjoined, remains the default setting in the Hindu psyche. That the Mahatma is the guiding light of Hindus rather than a Shivaji, Vivekananda or Aurobindo is a final testament to their degradation and impending demise.

The world is going to be apportioned between Christians and Muslims, with China the outlier entering the fray in competition with them at some future date. However, Islamo-Christian conflict has constituted the unfolding history of the world for the past 1500 years, with the religion of love coming into deadly conflict with the religion of peace after 571 AD. Christian imperialism advanced with spectacular brutality after Emperor Constantine turned it into the political ideology of the Roman State and the Islamic reprise that earlier swept all in its path ended at the gates of Vienna in 1683. Hindus have simply remained the last frontier until the counterparts of the Red Indians are finally erased and the domination of the white Christians or the execrable bearded clergy becomes unassailable.

Of course, an ideologically intransigent and demographically expansionist Islam may terrorise Hindus into complete submission at an opportune moment. Women of the defeated fancied by the conquerors will be consigned to their notorious harems and a surge in religious conversion will occur in the name of the religion of peace and tolerance. They will then resume their world-historical struggle against white Christian societies of European origin. But it is the Christians, who are militarily pre-eminent at present and they have also cornered the current market in intellectual thought, ideas and moral purpose. They will duplicitously eulogise and lament the passing of the creative Hindus, having wreaked havoc on them in the first place themselves. To destroy and then ceremoniously shed tears as you do so dramatically signifies a civilisation’s complete political dominion. It is achieved by taking control of legitimate intellectual discourse, the associated custodianship of interpreting human experience and the transmission of ideas, so that even the victims upon whom destruction is being inflicted lose their capacity to know their own fate. White Christians have achieved this remarkably blessed status by truly making their own industries that fabricate human knowledge and the world’s media that disseminates it.

This is why the insistence of various so-called Hindutva surrogates abroad on engaging in interfaith dialogue is baffling in the extreme. Of course the era of Bania primacy could provide a mundane explanation since Hindu activists of all stripes have succumbed to the values of low commerce. The lure of money seems to breed stupidity and instil self-righteous confidence; attributes instantly observable in the political activists concerned despite feigned phoney self-deprecation. Since interfaith dialogue ought to imply mutual respect evangelical activity is in blatant and hypocritical contravention of its basic purport. Christians simultaneously engage in interfaith dialogue and evangelical activity to lull potential victims into a false sense of security and misguided notions of self-worth. Such a devious stratagem only highlights utter contempt and disrespect for Hindus with whom they engage in the charade of interfaith dialogue. Petting a goat before its slaughter is a well-known routine before the kill. But Hindus aim to please and the unspoken question that seems forever poised on their lips is how low they need to bow when self-abasement is required of them.

The other wood Hindus cannot seem to fathom amid the trees is the diabolical role the British played in their history. After inflicting on them famines and mass death in the 1760s, resulting in seven million dead (quarter of Bengal’s population) because of rapacious looting immediately after Plassey, they caused the deaths of untold millions in the same Bengal on the eve of their departure almost exactly 180 years later. During the interim colonial history countless manmade famines are recorded and the post-1857 holocaust of mass murder is only being uncovered now. This is the period in which the British went on exultant killing sprees to avenge the alleged rape of their women during the first war of Independence itself. Needless to say that there was enthusiastic domestic British support for the mass murder, with the writer Charles Dickens himself declaring his fervent approval.

In more recent times, the British political establishment, having first assiduously promoted Indian’s partition in 1947, cynically sought India’s further disintegration by inciting the notorious Khalistani assassin Jagjit Singh Chauhan to declare independence from British soil on the very day Dhaka fell to the Indian army. And it was a British High Commissioner who invented the figure of 2000 killed in post-Godhra Gujarat that has become the stick to beat Hindus with for all time to come. Avarice and racial hatred were always the dominant themes of the British interaction with India.

Yet many Indians exhibit an embarrassing infatuation for all things British. India’s allegedly Rightist journalists swear by inferred British values, which only ever apply to the white British of course. Indeed the most ‘celebrated’ among them once notoriously dubbed Britain’s Queen India’s monarch too! The Left playing havoc with India’s future imbibed their half-baked, bankrupt ideas and political whims from British universities in which intelligence agents routinely masquerade as Leftist radicals. Today, the majority of British Leftists have discovered in Hinduism the greatest threat posed to human civilisation since the Nazis. Most of them attribute Islamic terrorism partly to Hindu oppression and quietly applaud the punishment being meted out to Hindus in various Indian cities by Islamic terrorists.

Yet Indians cannot avoid being seduced by the machinations of the British State and its minions, not least some intelligence agents, who have made India their home, disguised as writers. One of the most sickening spectacles is the way all and sundry lionises them in India, so irresistible are charms of proximity to a bona fide white presence. It was therefore unsurprising to learn that a British academic, involved with British intelligence, was able to place an Indian Leftist in a major university post in Delhi, so compelling is the value placed on white intercession. But to witness the Prime Minister of India standing next to him at an inauguration ceremony in Delhi recently was startling nevertheless.

Hindus need to understand that Islamo-Christianity is essentially hostile to their survival as an autonomous culture and political society. Their imperialistic impulses are a grave danger to Hindus because the porosity of the modern world has made their society vulnerable to inimical influences in familiar and novel ways. The eventual outcome for Hindus will have nothing to do with whether are good or bad people, talented or not, etc. It will have everything to do with the fact that politics abhors a power vacuum and politically divided Hindus without a government prepared to defend them and their interests, which has been their dismal fate for hundreds of years, at least since the great visionary soldier Shivaji, cannot survive. All the bad things constantly happening to them, from California and Bangladesh to everywhere in India, which is probably the most dangerous place in the world for Hindus, is part of a relentless pattern.

It is this political pattern that Hindus need to recognise and comprehend. And its evolution highlights starkly for anyone willing to see that appeals to justice and fairness are totally misplaced. What is taking place is a war of extermination, which is simultaneously social, political and biological, and Hindus are its victims. They will be converted, subjugated or destroyed as the two Semitic religions have unfailingly done to all rivals or any group that happens to differ from them. Christians and Muslims will eventually engage in even deadlier conflict with each other than they are already, but they will destroy the weak Hindus first because it is too tempting an opportunity to disdain.

[ramana]

S. Balagangahara had written in one of his earliest pieces in Sulekha that there was an undocumented struggle between the Roman and Orthodox Church and he would comment later. Has he done that?