Christian Subversion And Missionary Activities - 3

Husky · (This post was last modified: 10-06-2007, 11:13 PM by Husky.)

See also post above by Shambhu.

Article about the Americas. Infuriating, difficult reading. But nothing you didn't already have a hint of/suspect.
I am pasting excerpts here over this and next few posts. But would suggest reading the whole article: it's long but astounding. History of Americas summarised and a good deal about christianism, because - ultimately - that's what it's about.

http://www.dickshovel.com/500.html - works now, but if it doesn't, then try:
Alternate link
My comments in purple.

QUOTE500 YEARS OF INDIGENOUS RESISTANCE
(Photo on the page of Native Americans' protest of 'columBoo day' in 1992. People carrying a banner with the title of this article.)

- reprinted from Oh-Toh-Kin, Vol. 1 No. 1, Winter/Spring 1992

This article is intended as a basic history of the colonization of the Americas since 1492, and the Indigenous resistance to this colonization continuing into 1992. The author admits to not having a full understanding of the traditions of his own people, the Kwakiutl (Kwakwaka'wakw); as such the article lacks an analysis based in an authentic Indigenous philosophy and is instead more of a historical chronology.
Numbers in brackets indicate footnotes, fully documented at the end of this article.

INTRODUCTION
Throughout the year 1992, the various states which have profited from the colonization of the Americas will be conducting lavish celebrations of the "Discovery of the Americas". Spain has spent billion of dollars for celebrations in conjunction with Expo `92 in Seville. In Columbus, Ohio, a $100 million quincentennial celebration plans on entertaining several million tourists. CELAM, the association of South America's Catholic bishops, has organized a gathering to celebrate the "fifth centenary of the evangelization of the Americas" to be presided over by the Pope. As well, there is a wide selection of museum exhibits, films, TV shows, books and many other products and activities focusing on Columbus and the "Discovery", all presenting one interpretation of the 500 years following 1492. The main thrust of this interpretation being that the colonization process -- a process of genocide -- has, with a few "bad spots", been overall a mutually beneficial process. The "greatness" of European religions and cultures was brought to the Indigenous peoples, who in return shared the lands and after "accidentally" being introduced to European disease, simply died off and whose descendants now fill the urban ghettos as alcoholics and welfare recipients. Of course, a few "remnants" of Indian cultures was retained, and there are even a few "professional" Indian politicians running around.

That was no "Discovery" -- it was an American Indian Holocaust!

Until recently, commonly accepted population levels of the indigenous peoples on the eve of 1492 were around 10-15 million. This number continues to be accepted by individuals and groups who see 1492 as a "discovery" in which only a few million Indians died -- and then mostly from diseases. More recent demographic studies place the Indigenous population at between 70 to 100 million peoples, with some 10 million in North America, 30 million in Mesoamerica, and around 50 to 70 million in South America.
(This shows how genocidal christianism plays down the number they murdered - they have only admitted to extermination because *that* could not be denied. So they've done the next best thing: they've been lying about the extent of the genocide! Not that that's something new for them.)

Today, in spite of 500 years of a genocidal colonization, there is an estimated 40 million Indigenous peoples in the Americas. In Guatemala, the Mayan peoples make up 60.3 percent of the population, and in Bolivia Indians comprise over 70 percent of the total population. Despite this, these Indigenous peoples lack any control over their own lands and comprise the most exploited and oppressed layers of the population; characteristics that are found also in other Indigenous populations in the settler states of the Americas (and throughout the world).

THE PRE-COLUMBIAN WORLD
Before the European colonization of the Americas, in that time of life scholars refer to as "Pre-history" or "Pre-Columbian", the Western hemisphere was a densely populated land. A land with its own peoples and ways of life, as varied and diverse as any of the other lands in the world.
In fact, it was not even called "America" by those peoples. If there was any reference to the land as a whole it was as Turtle Island, or Cuscatlan, or Abya-Yala.
The First Peoples inhabited every region of the Americas, living within the diversity of the land and developing cultural lifeways dependent on the land. Their numbers approached 70-100 million peoples prior to the European colonization.And much more on the different Native peoples there.

QUOTETHE GENOCIDE BEGINS
"Their bodies swelled with greed, and their hunger was ravenous."
- Aztec testimonial
[...]
In a final reference to Colombo's (Cristoforo Colombo) log, one can also find the dual mission Colombo undertook,
"...Your Highnesses must resolve to make them (the Taino - Oh-Toh-Kin ed.) Christians. I believe that if this effort commences, in a short time a multitude of peoples will be converted to our Holy Faith, and Spain will acquire great domains and riches and all of their villages. Beyond doubt there is a very great amount of gold in this country... Also, there are precious stones and pearls, and an infinite quantity of spices" (Colombo's log, November 11, 1492) [3].
The duality of Colombo's mission, and the subsequent European invasion that followed, was the Christianization of non-Europeans and the expropriation of their lands. The two goals are not unconnected; "Christianization" was not merely a program for European religious indoctrination, it was an attack on non-European culture (one barrier to colonization) and a legally and morally sanctioned form of war for conquest. "Even his name was prophetic to the world he encountered -- Christopher Columbus translates to `Christ-bearer Colonizer'" [4].[/b]
(Man, native American people see through it brilliantly. I hope us Hindus will also figure it out.)
[...]
Colombo died in 1506, but following his initial voyage to the Americas, wave upon wave of first Spanish, then Portuguese, Dutch, French and British expeditions followed, carrying with them conquistadors, mercenaries, merchants, and Christian missionaries.
Hispaniola served as the first beachhead, used by the Spanish as a staging ground for armed incursions and reconnaissance missions, justified through the `Christianization' program; one year after Colombo's first voyage, Pope Alexander VI in his inter cetera divina papal bull granted Spain all the world not already possessed by Christian states, excepting the region of Brazil, which went to Portugal.This is interesting:
QUOTEIn 1675 the Narragansetts, Nipmucs, and Wapanoags, led in part by Metacom (also known as King Philip by the Europeans) rebelled against the colonies of New England following the English arrest and execution of three Wapanoags for the alleged killing of a Christianized Native, believed to be a traitor. The war ended in 1676 after [b]the English colonialists -- making use of Native allies and informers -- were able to defeat the rebellion[b]. Metacom was killed, and his family and hundreds of others sold to slavers in the West Indies. The military campaign carried out by the colonial forces decimated the Narragansett, Nipmuc, and Wapanoag nations.Has any research been done on the stats of how many Native informers/allies were christians. Because this seems to be a recurring pattern the world over.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 10-06-2007, 11:17 PM by Husky.)

Continued from 141:
Then these sections follow:
EXPANSION, EXPLOITATION, AND EXTERMINATION
THE PENETRATION OF NORTH AMERICA
THE EUROPEAN STRUGGLE FOR HEGEMONY

QUOTETRAGEDY: THE UNITED STATES IS CREATED
With the dominance of British power on a world scale, the European struggle for hegemony in the Americas was nearing its end. Subsequently, the 18th and 19th centuries were to be a period of wars for independence that would force the European states out of the Americas. Foremost among these wars was the independence struggle that would lead to the birth of the United States.
[...]
That the British colonial forces did not lose more territory can be attributed much to the participation of numerous First Nations on the side of the British; the Royal Proclamation was thus a strategy to dampen Native resistance to British colonialism (as in the eruption of King George's War in 1744 when Micmacs allied themselves with the French and, following the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle in 1748, continued fighting the British, who then concluded a treaty of "Peace and Friendship" with the Micmacs), as well as a method of forming military alliances with First Nations, if not at least their neutrality in European conflicts.
As in previous European struggles, Indigenous peoples were used as expendable troops, and the extensive militarization further consolidated settler control,
[...]
The `Indian Wars' launched by the US continued for the next 100 years, following an exterminationist policy that was aimed at destroying Native nations and securing those remnants who survived in (what was then believed) barren and desolate reserves. Once the People were contained in these Bantustans, the next step was the destruction of Native culture under the auspices of then-emerging governmental agencies.
As the US moved to a higher level of war against First Nations, it also began moving against competing European powers still present in the Americas.

In 1812, using the pretext of Native raids along its northern frontier from British territories, US forces attempted to invade British North America. Here again, Britain's colonial policies proved effective; an alliance of Native nations (who had their own interests in full implementation of the 1763 Proclamation) and European settlers succeeded in repulsing the US expansion. Among those who fought against the US invasion were the Native leaders Tecumseh -- a Shawnee chief who worked to form a Native confederacy against the Europeans (and who argued that no one individual or grouping could sell the lands, as it belonged to all the Native peoples); Black Hawk -- a leader of the Sauk who would also lead future Native insurgencies; and Joseph Brant -- a leader in the Haudenosaunee who was rewarded with a large territory by the British and promptly began selling off partitions to European settlers (in history, he is regarded as a "hero" by Euro-Americans but a traitor by his people). Tecumseh was killed in battle in the Battle of Moraviantown in Ontario in 1813.
In 1815, hostilities between Britain and the US were formally ended in the Treaty of Ghent, though neither the US war on Natives, or Native resistance, subsided.
Now come many sections that I've not had time to read in detail, but I've looked through it and it takes one's breath:
QUOTEREVOLUTIONS IN THE 'NEW WORLD'
Following the American Revolution, movements for independence began breaking out in South and Central America.
Despite the seemingly monolithic appearance of Spanish or Portuguese colonialism in the first three centuries following the European invasion, and despite the genocidal policies of the conquistadors, Native resistance continued. Particularly in, for example, the interior region of the Yucatan Peninsula, the lowland forests of Peru, the Amazon region, and even in the Andean highlands -- which had suffered such a severe depopulation; between 1532 and 1625, the population of the Andean peoples is estimated to have declined from 9 million to 700,000. In these regions, colonial domination was continually challenged and formed the base for resistance movements that began even in the 1500s.
Among the first of these revolts was the Vilacabamba rebellion of 1536 led by Manqu Inka. Although the insurgency was unable to expand and failed to drive the Spanish out, the rebels were able to establish a "liberated zone" in the Vilacabamba region of present-day Bolivia for the next three decades [16]. The ending of the initial revolt is recognized as the execution of another leader, Tupac Amaru I in 1572.
Other major insurgencies also broke out in Ecuador in 1578, 1599, and 1615. The Itza of Tayasal in the Yucatan Peninsula remained unsubjugated until 1697.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE"Europeans found it particularly difficult to establish effective transportation and communication facilities in the forest lowlands of the Maya area... Though the Spaniards achieved formal sovereignty over Yucatan with relative ease, many local Maya groups successfully resisted effective domination...for centuries" [17].
</div>It goes on and on. The title of this article is very apt. My goodness, the Native Americans have been fighting and fighting without giving up. The US keeps presenting them as people who've just rolled over and died. But no, that's a big sham. And these people are still fighting today. Win. Win.

QUOTEMANIFEST DESTINY AND THE US 'INDIAN WARS'
While the US was in the process of establishing itself as an imperialist world power, it was still struggling to consolidate itself as a continental base and countering armed resistance by First Nations.
[...]
But the `Indian Frontier' was not to hold. Like the British Royal Proclamation of 1763, the restrictions on Europeans settling or trading in these regions were routinely ignored. With the US annexation of northern Mexico in 1848, the US acquired the territories of Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah and Colorado. The same year, gold was discovered in California. With these two events, the large-scale invasion of the `Indian Territory' was underway. Under the ideology of Manifest Destiny, the US was to launch a renewed period of genocidal war against those regions and First Nations which remained unsubjugated. The theatre of war extended from the Great Lakes region around Minnesota, south of the Rio Grande, and west to California, extending north to Washington state. It was a period of war which involved many First NationsThen there's the section:
AFRIKAN SLAVERY, AFRIKAN REBELLION, AND THE US CIVIL WAR
followed by:
QUOTEBLACK RECONSTRUCTION AND DECONSTRUCTION
[...]
Towards the end of the War in 1865, those Afrikans who did not escape began a large-scale strike following the defeat of the Confederacy. They claimed the lands that they had laboured on, and began arming themselves -- not only against the Southern planters but also against the Union army. Widespread concerns about this `dangerous position' of Afrikans in the South led to `Black Reconstruction'; Afrikans were promised "democracy, human rights, self-government and popular ownership of the land".

In reality, it was a strategy for returning Euro-American dominance involving:
"1. The military repression of the most organized and militant Afrikan communities.
2. Pacifying the Afrikan peoples by neo-colonialism, using elements of the Afrikan petit-bourgeoisie to led their people into embracing US citizenship as the answer to all problems. Instead of nationhood and liberation, the neo-colonial agents told the masses that their democratic demands could be met by following the Northern settler capitalists..." [27].
Following this strategy, Union army forces attacked Afrikan communities who were occupying land, forcing tens of thousands off collectively held land and arresting the "leaders". Afrikan troops who had fought in the Union army were quickly disarmed and dispersed, or sent to fight as colonial troops in the ongoing "Indian Wars". White supremacist terrorist organizations formed, one of the most infamous -- but not the only -- being the Ku Klux Klan.Wow. I never knew about this.

*Very* interesting topics from the brief look over.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 10-06-2007, 11:24 PM by Husky.)

Continued from 141 - final post:

Was looking through the article for occurrences of 'christianism' and here it continues:
QUOTETHE COLONIZATION OF CANADA
[...]
Meanwhile, in British North America, the geo-military importance of the First Nations was quickly being eroded. With the influx of loyalists after the US War for Independence, the European population had grown and was strategically garrisoned in key military areas -- conflicts with the US were predicted. As well as further increasing the European population in the region, the War of 1812 and US policies of moving Natives from the northern frontier had broken up confederacies and greatly diminished the power of the First Nations in the area. After this, British colonial policies changed from essentially forming military alliances to a higher level of colonization through policies of breaking down the collective power of First Nations. Christianization and an overall Europeanization of Native peoples was developed as official policy. By the 1850s, an instrument had been created to this end: "The Gradual Civilization Act of 1857".
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE"The Act was based upon the assumption that the full civilization of the tribes could be achieved only when Indians were brought into contact with individualized property... Any Indian...adjudged by a special board of examiners to be educated, free from debt, and of good moral character could on application be awarded twenty hectares of land..." [35].
Here, the "civilization of the tribes" should be read as the elimination of the basis of Native cultures and de facto the First Nations as nations. The twenty hectares of land was to be taken from the reserve land base, subsequently breaking up the collective and communitarian land practises of Native peoples and replacing these with individual parcels of land; all the easier, from the viewpoint of the colonizer, to achieve the long-term goal of completely eliminating First Nations as nations and leaving nothing but dispersed, acculturated, peoples to be assimilated into European society. The patriarchal dimensions of forced-assimilation were also clear: only males could be so enfranchised[36]. A Commission of Inquiry had further recommended that reserve lands be restricted to a maximum of 25 acres per family, and that Native organization be gradually replaced with a municipal form of government.</div>
And the old trick:
QUOTEAt the same time, new methods in acquiring land were developed. Beginning on 1850 and continuing into the 20th century, a series of treaties were "negotiated" in which Native nations ceded immense tracts of land in return for reserve land, hunting and fishing rights, education, medical care, and the payment of annuities. The first such treaties were the Robinson treaties, which would be renegotiated in 1871 as Treaties No. 1 and No. 2.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE"The relationship between the immediate requirements of the internal imperialist expansion and the treaties is remarkable. The first of these treaties was sought, according to a 19th century historian's first-hand report, `in consequence of the discovery of minerals on the shores of Lake Huron and Superior'... The prairie treaties were obtained immediately in advance of agricultural settlement, and the treaty which includes parts of the Northwest Territories was negotiated immediately upon the discovery of oil in the Mackenzie Valley" [37].
While the colonizers knew what they wanted in proposing the treaties, Native peoples were unprepared for the duplicity and dishonour of the treaty-seekers.</div>Makes me wonder what's there in the NE of India other than a strategic position for the US to 'oversee' things in Asia.

QUOTEThe Indian Act followed earlier legislation in that the long-term objective was the assimilation of Christianized Natives, gradually removing any "special status" for Native peoples and eliminating reserves and treaty rights; all of which would make the complete exploitation of the land a simple task.And nothing has really changed. Christianising people allows for easy exploitation. But Indian christians don't see it - they are made blind upon conversion when they enter the Greatest of all Cons: given a non-existent jeebus and promised a most unrealistic (and unsatisfactory!) afterlife, in return for their loyalty and all they have in this life: land, resources and more.

Tragic. Blood-boiling:
QUOTEEXTERMINATION - ASSIMILATION: TWO METHODS, ONE GOAL

Of course, all this economic restructuring did not occur without growing resistance. With growing movements against imperialism, including peasant unions, students, workers, guerrillas and Indians, a substantial part of the "aid" included military training, weapons, and equipment. US Special Forces troopers were not only in Southeast Asia, they were also quite busy in Central America, training death squads and directing massacres. As part of an overall counter-insurgency campaign, the militarization alone precipitated an upward spiral of violence. In Guatemala alone, between 1966-68, some 8,000 people were slaughtered by Guatemalan soldiers under the direction of US Green Beret advisors; US pilots flew US planes on bombing missions. Paramilitary groups/death squads hunted down "subversives" in collaboration with the government, military, multinationals, and land-owners [43]. The main targets of this campaign, dubbed "Operation Guatemala", were the Mayan peoples.

Another aspect of the counter-insurgency plans was that of population control. Primarily the focus of US state-funding, the Agency for International Development (AID) was established in 1961. Using the false pretext of an "over-population problem" being the cause of mass poverty and starvation -- instead of imperialism -- population control came to be championed as the most important dilemma facing the "modern world". Under the guise of "family planning", AID began funding for a wide-range of public and private organizations, foundations, and churches who provided training, equipment, and clinics for birth control programs. Between 1968 and 1972, "funds earmarked for population programs through legislation and obligated by AID amounted to more than $250 million" [44]. South America received the largest percentage of this funding. Besides educational material, birth control pills, IUDs, and other pharmaceuticals developed by a profitable gene and biotechnology industry in the imperialist centres, the main thrust of population control remains sterilization.
(And sterilisation is what the Baptist missionaries are doing now to a large number of the Akha women of Thailand.)
Between 1965-71, an estimated 1 million women in Brazil had been sterilized [45]. In Puerto Rico, 34% of all women of child-bearing age had been sterilized by 1965 [46]. Between 1963-65, more than 40,000 women in Colombia had been sterilized [47]. In contrast to these programs in the "Third World", the imperialist centres see restrictions on abortion and struggles for women's reproductive choice. But even here there is a double standard for non-European women:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE"Lee Brightman, United Native Americans President, estimates that of the Native population of 800,000 (in the US), as many as 42% of the women of childbearing age and 10% of the men...have been sterilized... The first official inquiry into the sterilization of Native women...by Dr. Connie Uri...reported that 25,000 Indian women had been permanently sterilized within Indian Health Services facilities alone through 1975...
"According to a 1970 fertilization study, 20% of married Black women had been sterilized, almost three times the percentage of white married women. There was a 180% rise in the number of sterilizations performed during 1972-73 in New York City municipal hospitals which serve predominantly Puerto Rican neighbourhoods" [48].
Similar results were found in Inuit communities in the Northwest Territories. Clearly, "overpopulation" is not an issue in North America, nor is it in South or Central America. Rather, it is a method for reducing specific portions of the population who would organize against their oppression and who have no place in the schemes of capital. In other words, "It is more effective to kill guerrillas in the womb".
Of all the South American countries that underwent massive industrialization after World War 2, Brazil is probably the most well known. Following a 1964 coup backed by the US, IMF and multinationals, foreign investment rose steadily. Between 1964-71, over $4 billion had been pumped into Brazil through the World Bank, AID, IDB, and others [49].
Between 1900-57, the Indigenous population of Brazil had declined from over 1 million to less than 200,000 [50], through the rubber boom, ranching, and mining industries. Following the 1964 coup and the rise in foreign investment, the penetration of the Amazon region in particular was increased. As these industries invaded even more Indian lands, a renewed campaign of extermination accompanied them. Indians were hunted down by death squads, their communities bombed and massacred, and disease epidemics purposely spread through injections and infected blankets. In the 1960s alone,
QUOTE"Of the 19,000 Monducurus believed to have existed in the 30s, only 1200 were left. The strength of the Guaranis had been reduced from 5,000 to 300. There were 400 Carajas left out of 4,000. Of the Cintas Largas, who had been attacked from the air and driven into the mountains, possibly 500 had survived out of 10,000... Some like the Tapaiunas -- in this case from a gift of sugar laced with arsenic -- had disappeared altogether" [51].
All these atrocities were part of a "pacification" campaign aimed at eliminating the Indians, who here too were seen as obstacles to "development".</div>
Remaining sections are called (don't have time to read it now):
THE PEOPLE AIM FOR FREEDOM
THE STRUGGLE FOR LAND
IN TOTAL RESISTANCE
FOOTNOTES

10-07-2007, 06:48 PM

QUOTECompeting for Souls

Alan Weisman

It shouldn't have been that disconcerting to hear an evangelical Protestant minister extol God's goodness for guiding the Pilgrims safely to America, where they could establish a Christian ethic that would one day shape the moral values of a nation. Granted, the church was stadium-sized, the 100-person choir was accompanied by a 32-piece orchestra and the service was being televised to millions, but we Americans are used to television ministries that have somehow managed to hybridize Puritan-inspired religion and Hollywood spectaculars. Except this wasn't America: it was Korea, known in theology circles as home to the purest Buddhism in Asia.

The pre-Thanksgiving Sunday service that I and 25,000 other attendees were witnessing took place in the Yoido Full Gospel Church of Seoul, South Korea, which, at 800,000 members (many of whom were watching via simultaneous transmission in satellite churches around the country) calls itself the biggest church in the world. Evangelical Christianity took hold here following the Korean War, when many Koreans studied in the United States, sometimes on church scholarships, and returned influenced by Western ideas.

In recent decades, as South Korea's social philosophy segued from the ancestor worship of Confucianism to free market capitalism, the country has undergone a spiritual conversion, and is now nearly fifty percent Christian. Christians and Buddhists alike told me, with pride and concern respectively, that to get elected these days, South Korean politicians have to be Christian. Although Korean Protestant churches maintain strong ties with their American evangelical counterparts, in this now-prosperous country they aren't dependent on them. In fact Yoido Full Gospel actually sends missionaries to the United States, and maintains its own Bible college in Orange County, California.

Korea's religious transformation hasn't been painless. In the 1990s, temples were burned and Buddha statues were beheaded as a Christian president openly equated Buddhist and Satanic images. The conflict is no longer so open. But Korean Buddhists today worry about being overwhelmed in a society where commercialism and religion grow increasingly indistinguishable.

Downtown Seoul's Jogye-sa Temple, center of the largest sect of Korean Buddhism, has recently been surrounded by 25-story buildings that in the past would never have been permitted. The glass from one of the highest skyscrapers reflects light so intensely into an adjacent temple that monks can't meditate, even with their eyes closed. The building's Swedish architect was horrified to learn thisâin his country, reflective angles are carefully controlled to avoid violating a church's holy sanctum. But here, a Buddhist monk told me, no one even bothered to consult them. "It's like we no longer exist." 

http://homelands.org/worlds/korea.html

The same fate awaits for India. Unless there is radical counteraction by hindus and those from other Indian belief systems, with the increasing christian & muslim political, social and economic dominance in the country, India is on its way to becoming another south Korea.

10-07-2007, 06:55 PM

QUOTE
Competing for Souls

It shouldn't have been that disconcerting to hear an evangelical Protestant minister extol God's goodness for guiding the Pilgrims safely to America, where they could establish a Christian ethic that would one day shape the moral values of a nation...



I forgot to add, please hear the full audio report of the above (christianity in south Korea) on their homepage http://homelands.org/worlds/korea.html. It gives more information on the christianization of South Korean and the threats faced by buddhism.

dhu · (This post was last modified: 10-10-2007, 06:26 PM by dhu.)

Berlin's Nazi-era church for sale
The Martin Luther Memorial Church, in the southern Berlin district of Mariendorf

<img src='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/10/08/wnaz108.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
A wooden frieze depicting Jesus standing next to German soldiers

10-11-2007, 09:18 AM

Argentine court convicts priest of complicity in 'dirty war' deaths
QUOTEMore than two decades after the end of Argentina's dirty war, an Argentine federal court on Tuesday convicted a Catholic priest of participating in a series of crimes that it said were "akin to genocide."

A panel of three federal judges sentenced Christian von Wernich , 69, to life imprisonment after finding him guilty of direct participation in seven murders and direct or indirect involvement in 42 cases of kidnapping and torture.

I think even during Rawanda genocide of '90s, some priests or nuns actively participated in crimes against humanity. Does anyone remember this? Any links?

10-11-2007, 10:25 AM

Religion & genocide - nuns in Rwanda convicted of genocide - Brief Article

Catholic nuns on trial for Rwanda genocide

Husky · (This post was last modified: 10-11-2007, 12:50 PM by Husky.)

Following from
http://web.archive.org/web/20021012152454/...eo/victims.html via http://freetruth.50webs.org/D3.htm#Africa
It says Anglicans too, not only Catholics. Therefore, Protestant flavour also represented:
QUOTERwanda Massacres section of Victims of the Christian Faith at Christian Heritage recounts the deep involvement of the clergy in the genocide of the Rwandans.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEIn 1994 in the small African country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups. For quite some time I heard only rumors about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.
According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..."
[S2] Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00.
More recently the BBC aired:
QUOTEPriests get death sentence for Rwandan genocide
BBC NEWS April 19, 1998

A court in Rwanda has sentenced two Roman Catholic priests to death for their role in the genocide of 1994, in which up to a million Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed. Pope John Paul said the priests must be made to account for their actions. Different sections of the Rwandan church have been widely accused of playing an active role in the genocide of 1994...</div></div>
Bottom of post #130 (Acharya) already contains the above.

**acharya** · 10-13-2007, 01:24 AM

Knights Templar win heresy reprieve after 700 years

By Philip Pullella Thu Oct 11, 8:33 PM ET

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Knights Templar, the medieval Christian military order accused of heresy and sexual misconduct, will soon be partly rehabilitated when the Vatican publishes trial documents it had closely guarded for 700 years.
ADVERTISEMENT

A reproduction of the minutes of trials against the Templars, "'Processus Contra Templarios -- Papal Inquiry into the Trial of the Templars'" is a massive work and much more than a book -- with a 5,900 euros (4,125 pounds) price tag.

"This is a milestone because it is the first time that these documents are being released by the Vatican, which gives a stamp of authority to the entire project," said Professor Barbara Frale, a medievalist at the Vatican's Secret Archives.

"Nothing before this offered scholars original documents of the trials of the Templars," she told Reuters in a telephone interview ahead of the official presentation of the work on October 25.

The epic comes in a soft leather case that includes a large-format book including scholarly commentary, reproductions of original parchments in Latin, and -- to tantalise Templar buffs -- replicas of the wax seals used by 14th-century inquisitors.

Reuters was given an advance preview of the work, of which only 799 numbered copies have been made.

One parchment measuring about half a metre wide by some two metres long is so detailed that it includes reproductions of stains and imperfections seen on the originals.

Pope Benedict will be given the first set of the work, published by the Vatican Secret Archives in collaboration with Italy's Scrinium cultural foundation, which acted as curator and will have exclusive world distribution rights.

The Templars, whose full name was "Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon", were founded in 1119 by knights sworn to protecting Christian pilgrims visiting the Holy Land after the Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099.

They amassed enormous wealth and helped finance wars of some European monarchs. Legends of their hidden treasures, secret rituals and power have figured over the years in films and bestsellers such as "The Da Vinci Code".

The Knights have also been portrayed as guardians of the legendary Holy Grail, the cup used by Christ at the Last Supper before his crucifixion.

The Vatican expects most copies of the work to be bought up by specialised libraries at top universities and by leading medieval scholars.

BURNED AT THE STAKE

The Templars went into decline after Muslims re-conquered the Holy Land at the end of the 13th century and were accused of heresy by King Philip IV of France, their foremost persecutor. Their alleged offences included denying Christ and secretly worshipping idols.

The most titillating part of the documents is the so-called Chinon Parchment, which contains phrases in which Pope Clement V absolves the Templars of charges of heresy, which had been the backbone of King Philip's attempts to eliminate them.

Templars were burned at the stake for heresy by King Philip's agents after they made confessions that most historians believe were given under duress.

The parchment, also known as the Chinon Chart, was "misplaced" in the Vatican archives until 2001, when Frale stumbled across it.

"The parchment was catalogued incorrectly at some point in history. At first I couldn't believe my eyes. I was incredulous," she said.

"This was the document that a lot of historians were looking for," the 37-year-old scholar said.

Philip was heavily indebted to the Templars, who had helped him finance his wars, and getting rid of them was a convenient way of cancelling his debts, some historians say.

Frale said Pope Clement was convinced that while the Templars had committed some grave sins, they were not heretics.

SPITTING ON THE CROSS

Their initiation ceremony is believed to have included spitting on the cross, but Frale said they justified this as a ritual of obedience in preparation for possible capture by Muslims. They were also said to have practised sodomy.

"Simply put, the pope recognised that they were not heretics but guilty of many other minor crimes -- such as abuses, violence and sinful acts within the order," she said. "But that is not the same as heresy."

Despite his conviction that the Templars were not guilty of heresy, in 1312 Pope Clement ordered the Templars disbanded for what Frale called "the good of the Church" following his repeated clashes with the French king.

Frale depicted the trials against the Templars between 1307 and 1312 as a battle of political wills between Clement and Philip, and said the document means Clement's position has to be reappraised by historians.[B]

"This will allow anyone to see what is actually in documents like these and deflate legends that are in vogue these days," she said.

Rosi Fontana, who has helped the Vatican coordinate the project, said: "The most incredible thing is that 700 years have passed and people are still fascinated by all of this."

"The precise reproduction of the parchments will allow scholars to study them, touch them, admire them as if they were dealing with the real thing," Fontana said.

"But even better, it means the originals will not deteriorate as fast as they would if they were constantly being viewed," she said.

**acharya** · 10-13-2007, 01:24 AM

Knights Templar win heresy reprieve after 700 years

By Philip Pullella Thu Oct 11, 8:33 PM ET

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Knights Templar, the medieval Christian military order accused of heresy and sexual misconduct, will soon be partly rehabilitated when the Vatican publishes trial documents it had closely guarded for 700 years.
ADVERTISEMENT

A reproduction of the minutes of trials against the Templars, "'Processus Contra Templarios -- Papal Inquiry into the Trial of the Templars'" is a massive work and much more than a book -- with a 5,900 euros (4,125 pounds) price tag.

"This is a milestone because it is the first time that these documents are being released by the Vatican, which gives a stamp of authority to the entire project," said Professor Barbara Frale, a medievalist at the Vatican's Secret Archives.

"Nothing before this offered scholars original documents of the trials of the Templars," she told Reuters in a telephone interview ahead of the official presentation of the work on October 25.

The epic comes in a soft leather case that includes a large-format book including scholarly commentary, reproductions of original parchments in Latin, and -- to tantalise Templar buffs -- replicas of the wax seals used by 14th-century inquisitors.

Reuters was given an advance preview of the work, of which only 799 numbered copies have been made.

One parchment measuring about half a metre wide by some two metres long is so detailed that it includes reproductions of stains and imperfections seen on the originals.

Pope Benedict will be given the first set of the work, published by the Vatican Secret Archives in collaboration with Italy's Scrinium cultural foundation, which acted as curator and will have exclusive world distribution rights.

The Templars, whose full name was "Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon", were founded in 1119 by knights sworn to protecting Christian pilgrims visiting the Holy Land after the Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099.

They amassed enormous wealth and helped finance wars of some European monarchs. Legends of their hidden treasures, secret rituals and power have figured over the years in films and bestsellers such as "The Da Vinci Code".

The Knights have also been portrayed as guardians of the legendary Holy Grail, the cup used by Christ at the Last Supper before his crucifixion.

The Vatican expects most copies of the work to be bought up by specialised libraries at top universities and by leading medieval scholars.

BURNED AT THE STAKE

The Templars went into decline after Muslims re-conquered the Holy Land at the end of the 13th century and were accused of heresy by King Philip IV of France, their foremost persecutor. Their alleged offences included denying Christ and secretly worshipping idols.

The most titillating part of the documents is the so-called Chinon Parchment, which contains phrases in which Pope Clement V absolves the Templars of charges of heresy, which had been the backbone of King Philip's attempts to eliminate them.

Templars were burned at the stake for heresy by King Philip's agents after they made confessions that most historians believe were given under duress.

The parchment, also known as the Chinon Chart, was "misplaced" in the Vatican archives until 2001, when Frale stumbled across it.

"The parchment was catalogued incorrectly at some point in history. At first I couldn't believe my eyes. I was incredulous," she said.

"This was the document that a lot of historians were looking for," the 37-year-old scholar said.

Philip was heavily indebted to the Templars, who had helped him finance his wars, and getting rid of them was a convenient way of cancelling his debts, some historians say.

Frale said Pope Clement was convinced that while the Templars had committed some grave sins, they were not heretics.

SPITTING ON THE CROSS

Their initiation ceremony is believed to have included spitting on the cross, but Frale said they justified this as a ritual of obedience in preparation for possible capture by Muslims. They were also said to have practised sodomy.

"Simply put, the pope recognised that they were not heretics but guilty of many other minor crimes -- such as abuses, violence and sinful acts within the order," she said. "But that is not the same as heresy."

Despite his conviction that the Templars were not guilty of heresy, in 1312 Pope Clement ordered the Templars disbanded for what Frale called "the good of the Church" following his repeated clashes with the French king.

Frale depicted the trials against the Templars between 1307 and 1312 as a battle of political wills between Clement and Philip, and said the document means Clement's position has to be reappraised by historians.[B]

"This will allow anyone to see what is actually in documents like these and deflate legends that are in vogue these days," she said.

Rosi Fontana, who has helped the Vatican coordinate the project, said: "The most incredible thing is that 700 years have passed and people are still fascinated by all of this."

"The precise reproduction of the parchments will allow scholars to study them, touch them, admire them as if they were dealing with the real thing," Fontana said.

"But even better, it means the originals will not deteriorate as fast as they would if they were constantly being viewed," she said.

10-14-2007, 05:09 AM

Gospel for Asia - 1 The focus is on North-East India.

**shamu** · 10-14-2007, 12:57 PM

There is another aspect to it if the recent Rama-controversy was engineered by missionaries. Many Hindus are working on to prove that jesus christ never existed. Missionaries have pre-empted this effort by bringing the argument on existance of Lord Rama to the public and following conclusion that faith should never be questioned.

People working on to disprove jesus' existance need to work out a strategy that considers this new situation.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 10-14-2007, 06:35 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(ashyam @ Oct 14 2007, 12:57 PM)Many Hindus are working on to prove that jesus christ never existed.[right][snapback]74280[/snapback][/right]Which Hindus are that? <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /> And why would they bother when it's already been proven by many that jesus of christianism never could have existed (though christians haven't been listening and the churches have been suppressing it).
Any Hindus considering redoing the proof should stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Talk about waste of time. Also, very few if any Hindus could ever know as much about christianism as theologically educated western ex-priests. (Indian ex-priests can't know as much, as one would have to know a lot about European christianism in particular.)
Next to that, there'd be way too much to learn for us Hindus: ex-priests wasted most of their lifetimes to learn every little detail of their religion and that's why they could disprove it when they left their religion. Through their efforts in disproving it, they felt their time had not been wasted after all if they were able to save others the trouble of getting into the fraud that is christianism.

If you know any such Hindus, Ashyam, point them to the literature out there already on the non-existence of jeebus. Let them show that to their still-misled friends. Sites like atheists.org's christianism pages and books like Atwill's (the person Dhu brought up) and other such material. And something called the jesus seminar: somewhere I read how these are a group who're logging all the things that jesus *didn't* say and *didn't* do, though the bible *said* he said/did... Found it quite shocking at first.

See here - may have C&Ped this somewhere here before - but the truth's been out a long time (courtesy theologically-educated persons), but church fellows buried it, as it says. Check the dates.
( http://freetruth.50webs.org/B2d.htm#JesusAndNT )
QUOTE<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEA Short History of the Bible, Being A Popular Account of the Formation and Development of the Canon, by Bronson C. Keeler:
The Authorities. The writings of the Christian Fathers, the ecclesiastical history of Eusebius - the oldest Christian history now extant - and the modern works, On the Canon of the New Testament, by Brooke Foss Westcott, D.D., and The Canon of the Bible, by Prof. Samuel Davidson, D.D., LL.D., are the sources from which the information must chiefly be drawn.
As some of the statements from Prof. Davidson will appear to the general reader quite remarkable, a word or two in explanation may be necessary. He is an Englishman, in the recognized head and front of the Protestant students of the world. He is eighty-three years of age, has spent a life in the study of these topics, is one of the ablest if not the ablest authority now living on the subject of the canon ... He was requested by the editors of the new edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica to write the article on the Canon for that work, and accepted the commission, supposing that what they desired was the facts. He told how the Bible had been made up, what books had been put in at different times and what left out, and that the Bible had not always consisted of just the books now in it. When the editors read the article, they declined to publish it as it was. They "mutilated" it, as Prof. Davidson says, and what was left after the eliminating process was completed now appears in the Encyclopedia as the article on the Canon. Prof. Davidson then published the original in book form, entitling it The Canon of the Bible, and in the preface he tells why he issued it. It is from that work that I quote so frequently.
The inexperienced person has little idea of the difficulty which the critical party finds in getting its facts before the public; nor of the systematic suppression used by the Christian press and clergy to prevent unpleasant truths concerning the Christian religion from coming out. There is not an orthodox religious newspaper in the world that will publish the facts concerning the origin of the Bible, which are given in these pages; there is scarcely a magazine in America that will publish them; and it is but recently that any newspaper would do so. Men who know the Christian theology to be untrue, have to get their audience as best they can.
-- A Short History of the Bible, Bronson C. Keeler, 1881</div>Note how the christian gag is still on, over a hundred years later.QUOTEThose graduating in religious studies from every major university in America, as well as every major theological seminary that is independent of Christian financial pressure, know certain facts to be true.
They know that:
- The entire bible is saturated with common mythological themes, from the creation and flood myth to virgin birth and resurrected hero mythology.
- The stories of the patriarchs in the Old Testament are known as 'temple legends' to enhance the history of the Hebrew people and are mostly fictional.
- The gospels were not written by anyone who knew Jesus personally.
- The 'Christ' myths and formulas are direct copies of Zoroastrian myths adopted by the Jesus sect.
- These facts, with others, have been known for years, and taught by internationally respected scholars from major universities world wide.
Religiously educated clergy, through the sin of omission and silence, yet continue to promote superstition.
-- William Edelen, Presbyterian and Congregational minister (1999)
Link http://www.secweb.org/index.aspx-action=...id=723.htmThen there's Joseph McCabe - a British ex-Catholic priest who's described as having an 'encyclopaedic mind'. He shot one hole after another into even *traditional* christianism; that was maybe in the first half of last century. There was no hope left for that religion, except that his books were on the church's banned list. (Church told christians to stop their ears and sing "lalalalalala".) And now's there's that ultra-shocking evidence from Joseph Atwill and related people whom Dhu introduced us to.
Or for a short-short version of jesus' non-existence, you can summarise - for the benefit of friends - the conclusion which the heading "Canonical Gospels, Acts and the Pauline Epistles" (mid-way left column) works to. The proof by those theologians and other knowledgeable people ends when you come to the word "liar" in red.

If any christian still believes after finding out all that, then ... Well, I don't know what to say then really, except shake my head and feel deeply sorry for them. Better get their heads examined.

QUOTE(ashyam @ Oct 14 2007, 12:57 PM)Missionaries have pre-empted this effort by bringing the argument on existance of Lord Rama to the public and following conclusion that faith should never be questioned.[right][snapback]74280[/snapback][/right]Faith would be the most pathetic answer ever. Only Hindus whose minds have been christoislamised can answer with something like "Faith" - accompanied by the usual christian hand-waving, I suppose. Hindus don't know what the word means.
In christianism the very idea of Faith and its central importance to their religion can be traced at least as far back as some church father or other who came up with this loser comeback to Greco-Roman religionists pointing out the ridiculousness of christianism: "I believe it because it is absurd." Can you imagine? Am laughing from here to Tokyo. We can even see it in the bible, there's this bit that says you have to be like a child or something. No, they're not trying to be complimentary to children, they want people to believe without questioning as they *imagine* children do.

Faith is the final resort of the christoislamist: when the final evidence against their religion has been given them, they excuse themselves by saying "but I have faith". ("Faith because it is absurdly impossible.") As if they've scored some hypothetical point. Although it's certain you can't touch that, because faith goes against all sense and logic - it's hot air that has to waft away by itself. You will find many a christian church or organisation out there shrieking that gawd and jeebus can only be found once you "have faith" and "abandoned reason". Yeah, I guess you can indeed find many a fictional character jumping about when you've abandoned all reason.... They can mail me a postcard authentically signed by the pink unicorn thanks.

Christianism revolves around, depends on, a historic jesus. No jesus means no christianism. The End of Faith. Christians (and islamis) have faith by numbers: if they lose flock in large numbers, many start doubting (other christians however have started seeing dwindling numbers as *proof* of jeebus too: because the NT covered its tracks using the predictable trick of saying that if people lose faith it means the 2nd coming is not too far off or something). If they gain flock - even when these are converted by foul means - they feel vindicated. Numbers of adherents prove their jeebus/islam - you know, just like the world really was flatter when all of christodom/islamidom believed it Confused

arcasm

Concerning Hindus:
Rama's setting is too long ago to ever find any evidence to the contrary of his existence. And the evidence/indications in his favour can only be obtained from such things as traditions that exist in the length and breadth of our nation and into Sri Lanka and Nepal (and beyond), and such physical things as RamarSethu. Next to that, astrological and other evidence cannot be fabricated/cannot have been added later, so that serves as more deterministic support. Also family experiences can prove it for certain individuals. (Contrast this with the christoislami fundamental: you CANNOT ever see gawd during life. They used to burn anyone who said they'd had *any* spiritual vision; though I've not come across any of inquisitional times who dared to claim he'd seen jehovallah. Every christian knew jehovallah was off-limits, off the visibility radar.
On the other hand, Hinduism and other Natural Religions are full of people who have seen their Gods.)

I think missionaries and the US and Indian psecular anti-Hindus are all after Sethu for their own different reasons, though their interests align marvelously now so they feel confident to make the bold stroke:
- the last because it demeans Hindus even more when they rehash the old British "myth" device (DMK motives are even more transparent);
- the US because it has serious strategic interests here (as elsewhere in India and the subcontinent and beyond);
- the missionaries not only because destroying the Sethu would undermine Hinduism, but also because the church (esp. catholic) has always viewed it as a sign of spiritual conquest if they destroy others' sacred site. They feel their non-existent bedtime monster called 'gawd' has then won over the pagan/heathen/idolatrous/kaffiri religions and put an immovable foot on non-christian soil. Destroying and vandalising others' religious sites is something christians have always done. They're just doing it under a psecular cover this time. Cloaking. Make no mistake, christianism sees it as a religious duty to destroy non-christian sacred sites and temples.
(They even have the pope always coming on sacred days. I recall reading how he popped up uninvited in S Korea precisely on Buddha's Birthday and totally disturbed their celebrations. Yupp here.
I may be wrong about this: but wasn't the pope's visit to India during a Hindu festival too?
Anyway, anyone who thinks this behaviour is coincidence is wrong. Holy-roly-poly catholic church does this on purpose, because *they* see it as a sign of them gaining the spiritual upperhand in heathenish lands. Popes do this sort of thing religiously, it's them circling out a country for christian-attack: they're marking a beginning to what they envision as spiritual defeat of the extant non-christian religions.)

QUOTEneed to work out a strategy that considers this new situation.
[right][snapback]74280[/snapback][/right]One simple strategy:
(1) Need to remind people that the daft christoBrits said all the same things about our Gods that tyrant government has been saying. (All while christos from Britain simultaneously believed in their absurd jeebus-gawd in the sky that resurrected itself after killing itself to appease its own anger. Try and understand that, if you will!)
This is no new onslaught, it's one that has been going on since christoterrorism first set its claw on our shores.
When they say "myth" they mean "lies". (I didn't know that until recently, hence repeating it.)

(2) give people information on how christo govt is (a) not doing any research or (b) suppressing all positive evidence on Hindu history
(Like they suppressed results on Ayodhya investigation)

(3) Hindus need to be told about this: http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.ph...indpost&p=73020
Can't help it - Repetition alert (Elst, from http://hamsa.org/appendix2.htm ):
QUOTERemember the Ayodhya debate, where Hindu scholars were challenged to produce ever more solid proof of the traditions underlying the sacredness of the controversial site? Whatever proof they came up with was automatically, without any inspection, dismissed by the high priests of secularism as "myth" and "faked evidence". It was alleged that there was a "lack of proof" for the assumption that Rama ever lived there. But in the case of the Christian sacred places, we do not just have lack of proof that the religion's claim is true, but we have positive proof that its claim is untrue, and that it was historically part of a campaign of fraud and destruction.
(4) Hindus should be told exactly what's wrong with the jeebus fable. Let them compare that to (3)
How many Hindus today are on auto-pilot thinking that jeebus was real and yet regurgitate the christoBritish/missionary education that taught them that Hindu Gods are all "mythology". The least Hindus should do is say "jeebus is myth" back. Say it. It's true, so it must be said. It's certainly painful at first, we're not used to fingerpointing. But eventually it has to become second-nature. It is part of their victory if we do not say it. It's how christoislami psecularism wipes out tolerant religions: get one to be so tolerant you won't dare to identify a lie as a lie. Gets one so brainwashed, one starts thinking it's an 'offense' to say "hang on, that's totally unfactual".

(5) And Hindus should not misunderstand what "faith" means. Faith is absurdity precisely because it absurdum est. (Sorry. I never took Latin <!--emo& Tongue

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' />)
Hindus never had "Faith" (what christoislamis mean by "Faith"). Instead, Hindus have ancestors and relatives who tell them things of their own experiences; and even today some still see their Ishtadevams. And that's what Hindus have wrongly been terming 'faith' when they talk in English: referring to things they can't produce for others.
English sometimes doesn't mean what we (or, rather, I) think it means... In reality - unbeknownst to us Hindus - Faith actually means belief against all reason. Examples include the christian beliefs that the bible's content is true no matter what history says, that santa thomas did thus-and-so in spite of every fact arguing against it, and that jesus must have been from Nazareth though it was never there in the time of his alleged life.

What *Hindus* have is either primary or secondary knowledge: either a certainty, or experiences passed on from truthful relatives. We're certainly not unique in this, not special: Taoist friends' grandparents see their Gods (that's why they instantly accept and nod their heads to similar narrations from our end). So it isn't just Hindus.
But it's why Hindus can immediately recognise the following statement by Swami Devananda Saraswati "Ishwar Sharan". (Goes without saying that Ishwar Sharan is a totally different person from the youtube's 'Devanand Saraswati' - the fraudulent person who calls himself a Shankaracharya)
QUOTEI reached India in 1967 and immediately fell in love with Hindu civilization. It is the best civilization of the Great Mother Goddess. She is called Asherah in the Bible and the prophets are always cursing Her. As a small child I had seen Her once in a garden, and later I had read about Her in the Golden Bough. She has always cared for me, and like the great guru Shankara I believe that She is the liberator of man and the revealer of truth. I became a sannyasi because of Her. It is a sacrifice of love that I am still trying to perfect.

(Notice how christoislamis never even wonder why all us natural religionists "believe" in our Gods... Christians actually think we have "Faith" :blink)
Christoislamism is the one that's totally different from other religions: no gawd to be seen, heard or experienced. And the sheep are not even allowed to! Church is clear on that position. (Yet church and sheep claim to see their "devil" in everything! Yikes, what kind of religion is that?)
Their most brilliant trick ever (brilliant because I can't believe that people actually fall for this): you will see gawd *after* you are dead and have devoted your life to/wasted your life in christoislamiterrorism and terrorised/missionized others with it. If it wasn't all so sad, I might roll over laughing. People should demand proof up front; and if there's none that can be given them, there should at least be something meaningful about a religion's principles. Christoislamism fails on both counts.

dhu · 10-16-2007, 09:06 AM

QUOTEMonsignor Suspended; Reported to Say His Gay Sex Isnât Sin

VATICAN CITY, Oct. 13 (AP) â An Italian monsignor was suspended from his post at the Vatican after he was reported to have said in a television interview that he âdidnât feel he was sinningâ by having sex with gay men, the Vatican and news reports said Saturday.

The Rev. Federico Lombardi, a Vatican spokesman, told reporters that, while the case was under investigation, the monsignor was suspended from his job as a top official in the Vaticanâs Congregation for Clergy, which aims to ensure proper conduct by priests.

âThe case is being handled with utmost reserve,â Father Lombardi said.

A private Italian television network broadcast a program this month in which some priests were interviewed about their homosexuality. Vatican teaching holds that homosexuality is a sin.

The men, including the monsignor who was suspended, were interviewed with their faces obscured and their voices altered so that they would not be recognized. But Vatican officials recognized the Vatican office in which the monsignor was interviewed, the newspaper La Repubblica reported on Saturday.

During the interview the monsignor said he âdidnât feel he was sinningâ by having sex with gay men, La Repubblica reported.

The Vatican did not name the monsignor.

10-16-2007, 09:09 AM

Joel Sekaran CGI History

10-16-2007, 07:50 PM

QUOTEMonsignor Suspended; Reported to Say His Gay Sex Isnât Sin
No surprise !!

10-16-2007, 10:20 PM

Need to think in terms of the people who attempt at conversion and people who get converted.

So what is wrong if somebody preaches and offers material benefits and in exchange people convert to the religion? Thinking 1:1, preacher vs the to-be-converted (or just-converted family), the preacher preaches with an agenda to convert and in the process temporarily reduces the plight of the to-be-converted, what is wrong?

10-16-2007, 11:06 PM

QUOTETribals revolt against Conversion in Wayanad
10/15/2007 5:39:05 PMÂ HK
Mananthavadi: Police arrested two Tribal leaders in connection with the attack against a Christian pastor who engaged in wide spread conversion in Wayanad District.

Pastor Joseph was warned several times by Tribal leaders against his Conversion activities in the area . The Pastor of New India Bible Church received huge amount of foreign funds every month. He was spearheading a movement to convert the Tribal district into a Christian belt.

Chandran and Suresh two active Tribal leaders, the safe guarders of Dharma in this remote forest were held in responsible for the attack. Memorandums and Petitions were given to Police earlier under Tribal organizations and Hindu Aikya Vedi to check the forceful conversions in the area by this Pastor. No actions were taken against this conversion attempts.

Now the Police and Media is all out with swords against those who decided to protect their Dharma, when justice was denied to them by the Law enforcers itself.

Strong presence of Hindutva organisations among tribals in the area had instilled a sense of self pride among the Tribals here and they are not now the pawns of Missionaries as in few other parts

10-16-2007, 11:14 PM

QUOTESo what is wrong if somebody preaches and offers material benefits and in exchange people convert to the religion? 
They change demography and influence politics, life of other people. Its like, whats wrong renting a room to a whore in a house, she/he will be minding his/her own business and making living like others.

Convertion is not for religious purpose, it is for influence and influence of outsider in your daily life, which include festivals, how you behave, think and how you die and how your last rites are performed. Check what is happening where conversion is fill swing and how people are behaving.

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