What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2

[dhu]

Either it originated in Kentum or Satem territory. If the latter, then homeland is definitely India. And we know that it was not Kentum. They were forced to move the homeland from Atlanticist Europe to Mid-russia <b>precisely </b>because it is not Kentum. But their horizon, of course, ends at the Volga.

Certain sections have been normed as the 'agents' and these will fight for their masters. Ideology itself was birthed as a way to simulate diversity, a pseudo-diversity. Ideology is only way they can reverse the immutability of geography.

[Husky]

<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Sep 24 2009, 04:08 AM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Sep 24 2009, 04:08 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-"Sanjay M"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Sanjay M")<!--QuoteEBegin-->Medical research results show that Indians are descended from 2 main groups of people - the North Indians who are related to Eurasians, and the South Indians who have no relation to any specific genetic group outside of India:

http://www.physorg.com/news172931737.html

<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->To shed light on genetic variability across the Indian subcontinent, the research team analyzed more than 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups, representing 13 states, all six language families, traditionally "upper" and "lower" castes, and tribal groups.

These genomic analyses revealed two ancestral populations. "<b>Different Indian groups have inherited forty to eighty percent of their ancestry from a population that we call the Ancestral North Indians who are related to western Eurasians, and the rest from the Ancestral South Indians, who are not related to any group outside India,</b>" said co-author David Reich, an associate professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School and an associate member of the Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What is the time period of these genetic history.
It will never be in the period of 2000BC
[right][snapback]101476[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sample size:
http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2009/09/ind...isks-aryan.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->To shed light on genetic variability across the Indian subcontinent, the research team analyzed more than 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of <b>132 individuals</b> from 25 diverse groups, representing 13 states, all six language families, traditionally "upper" and "lower" castes, and tribal groups.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->nizhal yoddha said...

    bad science. a sample of a mere 132 individuals? i doubt it is statistically sufficient for a population of 1+ billion.

    kilvisid (sp?) if i remember right has done far more thorough research with a bigger sample size and came to a different conclusion that does not fit with the 'aryan' invasion fairytale.

    every now and then some white guy and a bunch of indian sepoys come out with some new study that seems dubious, but is intended to support the 'aryan' invasion looney-tunes.
    9/23/2009 6:38 PM<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

MOD-Delete if already poste- from today's Times of India

Aryan-Dravidian divide a myth: Study
TNN 25 September 2009, 01:16am IST

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/in...how/5053274.cms

HYDERABAD: The great Indian divide along north-south lines now stands blurred. A pathbreaking study by Harvard and indigenous researchers on ancestral Indian populations says there is a genetic relationship between all Indians and more importantly, the hitherto believed ``fact'' that Aryans and Dravidians signify the ancestry of north and south Indians might after all, be a myth.

``This paper rewrites history... there is no north-south divide,'' Lalji Singh, former director of the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB) and a co-author of the study, said at a press conference here on Thursday.


Senior CCMB scientist Kumarasamy Thangarajan said there was no truth to the Aryan-Dravidian theory as they came hundreds or thousands of years after the ancestral north and south Indians had settled in India.

The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally ``upper'' and ``lower'' castes and tribal groups. ``The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society,'' the study said. Thangarajan noted that it was impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not systematically different.

The study was conducted by CCMB scientists in collaboration with researchers at Harvard Medical School,
Harvard School of Public Health and the Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT. It reveals that the present-day Indian population is a mix of ancient north and south bearing the genomic contributions from two distinct ancestral populations - the Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and the Ancestral South Indian (ASI).

``The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, ``At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India.''

The study also helps understand why the incidence of genetic diseases among Indians is different from the rest of the world. Singh said that 70% of Indians were burdened with genetic disorders and the study could help answer why certain conditions restricted themselves to one population. For instance, breast cancer among Parsi women, motor neuron diseases among residents of Tirupati and Chittoor, or sickle cell anaemia among certain tribes in central India and the North-East can now be understood better, said researchers.

The researchers, who are now keen on exploring whether Eurasians descended from ANI, find in their study that ANIs are related to western Eurasians, while the ASIs do not share any similarity with any other population across the world. However, researchers said there was no scientific proof of whether Indians went to Europe first or the other way round.

Migratory route of Africans

Between 135,000 and 75,000 years ago, the East-African droughts shrunk the water volume of the lake Malawi by at least 95%, causing migration out of Africa. Which route did they take? Researchers say their study of the tribes of Andaman and Nicobar islands using complete mitochondrial DNA sequences and its comparison those of world populations has led to the theory of a ``southern coastal route'' of migration from East Africa through India.

This finding is against the prevailing view of a northern route of migration via Middle East, Europe, south-east Asia, Australia and then to India.

[acharya]

Atleast they have admitted that "aryan migration" is atleast 40000 years ago .

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Dear Ram , It is  a tribute to the strategic thought that the British expended on perpetrating and perpetuating this hoax which they knew right from the beginning  was based on flimsy and non existent  assumptions, the success they achieved in this endeavor  and the gullibility of the Indic who was desperate to distance himself from others less than "Aryan" that it took a Harvard study to put it to rest.This is not  a moment we should  be ecstatic about, but one we should introspect and ask ourselves what made us (the educated) sink to the levels of those who are incapable of reasoning  in buying this spurious racial division with such alacrity


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Ram Narayanan <ramn_wins@roadrunner.com> wrote:

   
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/in...how/5053274.cms
   
    THE TIMES OF INDIA
    Aryan-Dravidian divide a myth: Study
    TNN 25 September 2009, 01:16am IST
   
    HYDERABAD: The great Indian divide along north-south lines now stands blurred. A pathbreaking study by Harvard and indigenous researchers on ancestral Indian populations says there is a genetic relationship between all Indians and more importantly, the hitherto believed ``fact'' that Aryans and Dravidians signify the ancestry of north and south Indians might after all, be a myth.

    ``This paper rewrites history... there is no north-south divide,'' Lalji Singh, former director of the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB) and a co-author of the study, said at a press conference here on Thursday.

    Senior CCMB scientist Kumarasamy Thangarajan said there was no truth to the Aryan-Dravidian theory as they came hundreds or thousands of years after the ancestral north and south Indians had settled in India.

    The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally ``upper'' and ``lower'' castes and tribal groups. ``The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society,'' the study said. Thangarajan noted that it was impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not systematically different.

    The study was conducted by CCMB scientists in collaboration with researchers at Harvard Medical School,
    Harvard School of Public Health and the Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT. It reveals that the present-day Indian population is a mix of ancient north and south bearing the genomic contributions from two distinct ancestral populations - the Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and the Ancestral South Indian (ASI).

    ``The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, ``At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India.''

    The study also helps understand why the incidence of genetic diseases among Indians is different from the rest of the world. Singh said that 70% of Indians were burdened with genetic disorders and the study could help answer why certain conditions restricted themselves to one population. For instance, breast cancer among Parsi women, motor neuron diseases among residents of Tirupati and Chittoor, or sickle cell anaemia among certain tribes in central India and the North-East can now be understood better, said researchers.

    The researchers, who are now keen on exploring whether Eurasians descended from ANI, find in their study that ANIs are related to western Eurasians, while the ASIs do not share any similarity with any other population across the world. However, researchers said there was no scientific proof of whether Indians went to Europe first or the other way round.

    Migratory route of Africans

    Between 135,000 and 75,000 years ago, the East-African droughts shrunk the water volume of the lake Malawi by at least 95%, causing migration out of Africa. Which route did they take? Researchers say their study of the tribes of Andaman and Nicobar islands using complete mitochondrial DNA sequences and its comparison those of world populations has led to the theory of a ``southern coastal route'' of migration from East Africa through India.

    This finding is against the prevailing view of a northern route of migration via Middle East, Europe, south-east Asia, Australia and then to India.
    _______________________
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bikram
September 25, 2009 at 7:39 pm

Now that Nature published a ground braking paper on Indian genetics (Sept 24, 2009), I believe we could change the history text books in India. The Nature article provide strong evidence that we Indian are a hybrid race of two ancient gene pools: Ancestral South Indian and Ancestral North Indian. Please, wait for another 2-3 years, and we will read that perhaps we Indian hybrid race then went to Central Asia to populate the rest of the world. Jay Sri Ram
Reply
------<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indians are hybrids of Indians and Indians. Truly earth shattering!!

SNP array will turn out be the EVM of evolutionary genetics. Goras love it since they can appropriate North Indians into their ummah and ignore the more concrete haplogroup work (R1a1) which indicates that euros are merely albino pakis. The dates of human occupation in Europe are nearly half that of South Asia, again indicating the direction of transfer from East to West.

The good thing is that we got an indication that the Indian group is supporting Stephen Oppenheimer’s Southern Route, although they are merely content to sepoy themselves at the moment.

Expect more hysterics from gora….

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Sep 25 2009, 09:58 AM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Sep 25 2009, 09:58 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Atleast they have admitted that "aryan migration" is atleast 40000 years ago .
[right][snapback]101515[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

There cannot be more than two lions in the den. Therefore, if 'Ancient North Indian' "emerged from" 'Ancient South Indian' at 40K and human occupation of Europe starts only at 40K, then of course 70% of the Indian genome derives from Europe. Elementary! They cannot even derive the Middle Eastern population from Europe (the opposite is the real case) yet they have done the same for entire North India!!

[dhu]

<b>The great arc of dispersal of modern humans: Africa to Australia</b>

Stephen Oppenheimer
School of Anthropology and Museum Ethnography, Oxford Univ..

Available online 26 July 2008.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->During the Late Pleistocene, anatomically modern humans (AMH) dispersed out of Africa across the continents. Their routes obeyed the limitations placed on any large terrestrial mammal dependent on daily drinking water, following certain climate-permissive corridors. AMH first spread north, with game, across the Sahara to the Levant during the Eemian interglacial (c.125 ka), but failed to continue to Europe, then occupied by Neanderthals. The savannah ecosystem in North Africa and the Middle East then dried up, and AMH vanished from the Levantine fossil record, being replaced there by Neanderthals. Later, AMH successfully left Africa as a single group by the southern route to India. The added ability to make short but deliberate open water crossings allowed them first to cross the mouth of the Red Sea from Eritrea, and subsequently Wallace's Line to reach the isolated Sahul continent at least by 48,000 years ago and possibly by 60–50,000 years ago. They only finally arrived in Europe from South Asia around 45–50,000 years ago, probably linked to climatic amelioration during OIS-3.
Article Outline

1. Introduction
2. Regional setting
3. Materials and methods used in review of genetic phylogeography

3.1. Phylogeography
3.2. Complete sequence data: sources, phylogeny and dating

4. Review of out of Africa models

4.1. How many AMH exits from Africa? The genetic evidence

4.1.1. Single exit models
4.1.2. Models with multiple exits: the Cambridge model

4.2. Quo vadis?

4.2.1. Southern rather than northern exit: genetic evidence
4.2.2. Climatic considerations: constraints and imperatives for an exit route

4.3. Dating migrations

4.3.1. Possible dates of exit
<b>4.3.2. Delayed migration to West Eurasia</b>
4.3.3. Dating arrival of AMH in India and Southeast Asia
4.3.4. Dating Pleistocene arrivals of humans in Sahul and near Oceania

5. Conclusions
Acknowledgements
References

<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

They are just detecting the populating movements of "ANI" towards Europe. But despite their problematic interpretations, they have at least admitted derivation of European populations from the beachcombing exodus represented by the Onge. Of course, they must then assume that this derivation reached Europe by completely skipping over North India! It does not trouble them in the slightest.

Always they MUST assume a backmigration; exactly as when Slavic is proposed to migrate BACK into its homeland after Indo-Iranian moves out (producing the "vacuuuuuuum").

Norming the Outlier, a last stand, if ever there was one.

70% Indian derivation from Europe!! It would make even Witzel blush!! Meanwhile they cannot deny the formative Mideastern input into Europe since there would be a revolt otherwise!!

[dhu]

One of the co-authors:

Nick Patterson: A Cold War Cryptologist Takes a Crack at Deciphering DNA’s Deep Secrets
By INGFEI CHEN
Published: December 12, 2006

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Thirty years ago, Nick Patterson worked in the secret halls of the Government Communications Headquarters, the code-breaking British agency that unscrambles intercepted messages and encrypts clandestine communications. He applied his brain to “the hardest problems the British had,” said Dr. Patterson, a mathematician.
..
In 1980, Dr. Patterson moved with his wife and children to Princeton, N.J., to join the Center for Communications Research, the cryptography branch of the Institute for Defense Analyses, a nonprofit research center financed by the Department of Defense.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This does not support ANI. It might weakly support a northern Indian origin of
caste, but there is plenty of contradictory evidence.

The study doesn't suggest whether ANI migrated out of India or into India, or
when this happened.

Other studies suggest that this ANI may refer to haplogroups that were found in
India before 20,000 BP.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

Strong statements from a Basque Intellectual:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Maju said...

<i>There was no "colonization of West Eurasia from India". What happened is roughly this: South and Southeast Asia were inhabited by the descendants of the Out of Africa migrants who stayed in the south. To this aboriginal population were added in the Neolithic and later Caucasoids in India and Mongoloids in Southeast Asia.</i>

..you surprise me a lot with that comment. <b>All West Eurasian mtDNA (excepted a couple of minor clades like X) and Y-DNA (only E1b1b1 is exceptional in this) is much more diverse in South Asia than the West. It's fairly clear that West Eurasians are derived from the older and more diverse South Asian population, </b>surely at a time after South and East Asians were already differentiated. I think this is almost beyond any doubt.

[[[[my comment: East Asian differentiation preceeds that of Europe.]]]]]]]]]]

Reviewing by clade:

MtDNA: R is clearly of South Asian origin, N1'5 and N2 (including W) are shared between South and West Asia. Only X would seem anomalous of all Western lineages in this.

Y-DNA: all non-E1b1b1 is<b> F, which is clearly more diverse in South Asia than anywhere else.</b>

Additionally <b>several technologies later used in the west, like bladelets and eventually microliths too are apparently South Asian creations and have there an older age than anywhere else.</b>

But if you think otherwise, you'd still have to think that the ANI/ASI divide is about as old as post OOA Eurasian expansion, what should make things practically the same.

You could maybe argue that the ANI/ASI divide relates with the expansion of microlithism worldwide and that this would be a more recent phenomenon allowing for the return of ANI to be Indoaryan. But this would pose many challenges in the West, as well as demanding an explanation for what happened with the Neolithic colonists, now suddenly vanished from the genetic landscape of India.

A good idea would be to compare with an outgroup like East Asians. That would give us a better perspective but I feel quite sure that East Asians would diverge from above the ANI/ASI split.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[dhu]

Looks like the Euros are not fully integrated by Christendom ahem EU yet. More dashing comments:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->eurologist said...

<i>There was no "colonization of West Eurasia from India"</i>

<b>Then where, if not from India, do the West Asians and Europeans come from?</b> A second, later migration out of Africa? I don't think so. <b>And, between about 70K and 45K, there was no straight way north that did not lead through hundreds of miles of desert.</b>

Conversely, you have here DNA data that show Europeans to be close to Indians, and yet closer to a putative ancient subgroup.<b> And, all the data that show many of the Y-DNA strains original to Europeans still reside in India.</b>

The data don't fit a simplistic picture as Fig. 4, because there was 40,000 years of contact with West Asians, which in turn had contact with Europeans, and on top of that (but just on top) you have the IE migrations.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[acharya]

<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Sep 26 2009, 06:57 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Sep 26 2009, 06:57 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the co-authors:


<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Thirty years ago, Nick Patterson worked in the secret halls of the Government Communications Headquarters, the code-breaking British agency that unscrambles intercepted messages and encrypts clandestine communications. He applied his brain to “the hardest problems the British had,” said Dr. Patterson, a mathematician.
..
In 1980, Dr. Patterson moved with his wife and children to Princeton, N.J., to join the Center for Communications Research, the cryptography branch of the Institute for Defense Analyses, a nonprofit research center financed by the Department of Defense.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[right][snapback]101559[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Co Author of what?

[dhu]

He is co-author of the Reich paper in Nature. Of course, no need to worry it is just coincidence onleeee ........

<b>Reconstructing Indian population history</b>

David Reich 1,2,5,
Kumarasamy Thangaraj 3,5,
<b>Nick Patterson</b> 2,5,
Alkes L. Price 2,4,5 &
Lalji Singh 3

1. Department of Genetics, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA
2. Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02142, USA
3. Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad 500 007, India
4. Departments of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA
5. These authors contributed equally to this work.

[dhu]

[QUOTE]He applied his brain to <b>“the hardest problems the British had,”</b>

Patterson is talking about himself here.

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/coffeehouse/david-reich-and-lalji-singh-indians-only-trust-the-vedas-and-ramayana-and-our-good-scientists-976060.htm


David Reich and Lalji Singh.Indians only trust the Vedas and Ramayana and our Good scientists.
started by Kalidass Ghosh 4 days ago
A mediocre scientist Lalji Singh (see his CV) is being used by foreigner scientists to push their (Western) Genetic Agenda into India. Lalji has been used by one David Reich, to push the Western agenda into India. all fake manipulative genetics has been done in this study. Earlier Lalji Singh wrote that the Indians came from Africa.

All experts in genetics are quite aware that Lalji is being used by outside scientists. These very foreign scientists would never venture to try such things with scientists of Tata Institute or Indian Institute of Science. As scientists there are world class.

In India Lalji is a local village scientist.

Post by Prof Kalidass Ghosh
Midnapore.

P.S. David Reich is pushing the agenda of the Europeans into India.David Reich and Lalji Singh.Indians only trust the Vedas and Ramayana and our Good scientists.

Reply


Flat Nested
Replies

  balkrishnan posted Reavid Reich and Lalji Singh.Indians only trust the Vedas and Ramayana and our Good scientists. on 3 days ago
Mr Ghosh,
Had you been having  an iota of knowledge about Genetics and Biology, you won't have been talking like it.
Science is not a mythology..It has solid bases to support the arguments. But, you are clinging tightly to your mythologies..
No Indian scientist is going to object on this work....they all accept it. Be they from TIFR or IISc. The point is only that you are bent upon to tarnish the fame of an eminent scientist.

There is no point in talking like this, what's true and what false. It's not the politicians' statement(neither is the verses from Vedas or Ramayana). Whatever is the truth, is seen through evidences. if you have really found any discrepency in the paper, highlight that. Why talking just nonsense?

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  Priyanka Sethi posted Reavid Reich and Lalji Singh.Indians only trust the Vedas and Ramayana and our Good scientists. on 4 days ago
Lalji has a very poor reputation as a scientist in India, to publish papers, he supplies the samples and then foreigners push the data as they desire. thus he is being used for a foreign agenda.

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  Rangilal posted Reavid Reich and Lalji Singh.Indians only trust the Vedas and Ramayana and our Good scientists. on 4 days ago
Scientists at TIFR, IITs, IISc are a class apart. the foreigners look for mediocre scientists to push their agenda and the mediocre scientists look for papers. clearly the foreigners by means of poilitical based genetics want to elevate their status and push mighty India down. It shall fail.


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  Kalidass Ghosh posted Reavid Reich and Lalji Singh.Indians only trust the Vedas and Ramayana and our Good scientists. on 3 days ago
The aim of such studies is to re-orient our culture, race, religion etc., so that the West can dominate us. Our Vedas do not speak of European. Caucasian, Semite people, etc. They only speak of the Aryan race. Vedas were compiled in the North-western region of India and are authentic Indian history. the colour of the aryans race was described from brown to light, thus most indian belong to this great race.

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  Rangilal posted Reavid Reich and Lalji Singh.Indians only trust the Vedas and Ramayana and our Good scientists. on 3 days ago
Prof. Ghosh. I went through this study. A typical case of westerners looking for  mediocre Indian scientists and then using them  for their agenda. Our religious texts tell us the aryans were from brown to light in colour. so why bring in the agenda of Western chaps into India. Besides some  Indians are lighter than even North Europeans, while many are lighter than southern Europeans. Colour is dependent on climate and not on race. Indians largely are pure aryans.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

In any other country, the intelligence connections would never have been made public; but they know that Indians are thoroughly domesticated, hence no need to hide.

The jokers are instead worried about some article in TOI (which is, btw, anti-indian).....

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->..you surprise me a lot with that comment.<b> All West Eurasian mtDNA (excepted a couple of minor clades like X) and Y-DNA (only E1b1b1 is exceptional in this) is much more diverse in South Asia than the West. </b><b>It's fairly clear that West Eurasians are derived from the older and more diverse South Asian population, </b>surely at a time after South and East Asians were already differentiated. I think this is almost beyond any doubt.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I wonder how long this charade will continue. Going by past experiences, two thousand years is a distinct possibility.

[dhu]

Nag, did you see how quickly their "concern" for time depth fell by the wayside...

-------------------------------
Some more dashing observations..

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->eurologist said...
<i>
There are plenty of reasons: (1) genetic, (2) archaeological and (3) some extremely strong guys known as Neanderthals.
</i>
..
Almost forgot about those strong guys. And let's not forget the climate.

A direct entry into the Levant and/or Iraq/Iran demands that the first AMHs

- crossed many hundreds of miles of unknown desert
- to enter an arid region that had months of below-freezing temperatures (for which they were not prepared)
- and then to live in hiding (both from the present Neanderthals and from archaeology) for 20,000 years, in a region that could support no more than a few thousand people
<b>- but yet managed to develop almost all known Westeurasian haplogroups
- in a gene pool that was at least two orders of magnitude smaller than the Indian/Pakistani/Afghan one ...</b>

While, conversely, climate, archaeology, and DNA point to the development of two subgroups within the latter region above - a southern one with familiar tropical conditions, and a northern one in which people had 20,000+ years time to develop the tool set (sewn clothing, tents, devices for carrying water, long-term preparation and storage of food such as drying/smoking) to survive, become successful, and spread when they were ready and briefly the climate became wetter to expand the grass lands to their west.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

R1a1 variance
Haplotype variance of R1a1a-M198 based on 7 Y-STR loci
0.505 India South
0.475 Pakistan South
0.426 India West
0.353 Finland
0.346 India North
0.298 Turkey
0.281 Ukraine
0.280 Tver
0.271 Arkhangelsk
0.252 Poland
0.250 India East
0.247 Hungary
0.243 Pakistan North